Killers that use the hook as the watering hole…
…have no basis for believing they’re good killers.
Good/Great killers are great at map pressure and chase. They know where to go, they keep chases short and they hook and move on until they’ve won. Those 4ks are deserved. When I lose to a trapper or demo or some middle to low tier killer with a decent team because they KNEW how to play, I’m impressed. These are Type A Killers.
But i estimate 50-75% of killers mostly proxy camp so the survivors come to them and they get cheap hits and can also tunnel if they want. They basically use a flaw in the game’s design to play a bastardized version of the game that gets them fairly easy 3-4ks. These are Type B Killers.
Both types get tons of 4ks. But if you take away the ability to camp and tunnel, Type A killers still destroy and 4k. Type B killers are lost
My point here in spelling this out is twofold.
1) I think Type B killers, because they get so much success, believe they are great at the game and so don’t bother trying to become Type A killers. I’m clarifying that they’re not. If they want to be great at the game they have to be able to win without falling back on camping and tunnelling for the majority of their play.
2) Type B killers are also a driving force of survivor quitting. People don’t want to play the bastardized “try to save your friends being guarded at the hook” version of the game. They want to play the game as it is intended to be played. So when they see the camping and tunnelling start they leave.
And just to be clear, I’m not responding to non constructive responses. If you disagree, clearly advance your point with logic.
Comments
Most of the time killers who tunnel/camp/slug strategically will win (getting at least 3 kills) while killers who play "fair" either get the same result or draw (just 2 kills). Main problem is that survs will also complain and insult, even the killer played fair. So i totally get why killers don't care anymore. Why should they care about survs fun when survs don't care about killers fun?
I had such a situation yesterday on Dead Dogs. Got a very early down, then got a hit on another one, who then fled into the main building. I abandoned chase because I didn't want to spend half the game there, and on my way back I interrupted another survivor going for the unhooking. The game then basically unravelled and after each hook I saw another one hiding nearby and soon I had three survivors hooked.
The last one hid untill they all died, then camped the hatch just so that they could t-bag me and then wrote in the post game chat "gg ez. stupid killer. lol." Like, how deranged can your perception be? I am not even angry or something, just amazed at some people.
A good killer is what gets them a 4K. Stop inventing "rules" to decide such things. Just like a Survivor will use any means necessary to get that gate open a Killer will use whatever means necessary to get that kill.
Just say the quiet part out loud when you make threads like this:
"I am going to call you a bad killer unless you play an M1 killer with trash mobility and never camp or tunnel or use any effective perks."
Survivors don't use any means necessary to get the gates open.
They use Wake Up !
(...I'll see myself out)
No, no. That was good.
/leaves a tip
I think my favourite szenario for this is the following:
I hook survivor A and leave because BBQ showed me the next target, I am a happy little Bubba. On my way to the people on my BBQ I encounter survivor B who wanted to go for the rescue asap. As such I adjust my course and chase B, down B and hook B. Then BBQ triggers again and shows me two people running for the still hooked survivor A...
You can guess how this plays out...
Now by the "survivor rulebook" I was a bad, bad camping tryhard noob Killer who has 0 skill.
Survivors however sometimes just make camping or intercepting the rescue so much more attractive. Even while not tunneling or camping I will make an optimal play. Just think about the usual szenario where a single person is on the hook and the gates are open...
Now, I dislike hardcore facecamping at 5 generators as much as everybody. This is no skill, however there are enough situations where camping is the correct play and not bad. Same with tunneling: We all know the cheeky bastards who try to bodyblock with Borrow Time and then complain (or even DC) when you chase them.
However...is there even an issue?
Tryhard Killers who play facecamp simulator at 5 generators or tunnel will go up the ladder until they face top survivors who punish them and make fun of them. Chill Killers who get their 2:2 will be further down and face chill survivors and bad Killers who only get 1 will face bad survivors who use Self-care...seems like a good system.
What you say at the end is quite true. I'm playing extremely chill as killer and often let at least one survivor go, and most times I'm facing real sweethearts. I genuinely can't remember the last time I had a salty endgame chat from survivors. Even when I get survivors that are a bit clicky at first, my baby killer charm gets to them and the rest of the game is all in good fun. =)
As for quirky unintended camp/tunnel stories, I played Hag yesterday on Azarov's Resting Place. That map has a HUGE bottleneck, and by force of things, I hooked one survivor exactly there. I thought I'd check the gens on the other side of the map quickly (which is dumb because I should stay in my web and protect my 3 gen), but on the way back realised that I would HAVE to walk past the hook again which was completely unintended.
I had a few seconds of being like "... can someone please set off a trap so that I can cleanly teleport back ? No ? Oh well..." X)
Give me one single reason why a killer should make their games harder on themselves other than altruism or self challenge while the opposite side is literally holding a single button to win the game while watching a youtube video on another monitor, getting carried, not by their skill, but by an overabundance of resources and safeguards to protect them from almost every single mistake they make... 🙄
This is a weird take.
Imagine in a game people complain because one side has an atomic bomb that the other side has to counter with only 4 sticks. The side with the atomic bomb always manages to either wipe the other team or at the very least kill one of the 4 in the enemy team each time they press the "Atomic bomb" button.
When the side with the atomic bomb inevitably wins, the other side will obviously will complain. Yet your take is "lmao don't fall for it, you're giving a terrible impression of yourself."
The counterplay to the atomic bomb is several degrees more difficult to pull off than pressing the button to release the bomb. The people trying to counter it aren't making themselves look ridiculous when only the most skilled players get to actually counter it.
Your take only works if the tactic is easy to counter, like getting poked with a needle and dying when your team all have guns. That's when the other side is looking ridiculous for complaining.
If survivors complain for dying to a trapper's trap, I'd understand your take, but things like getting slugged, tunneled out or face camped require ridiculous amounts of coordination and team play from one side, and just the choice to do it from the other. I don't think the recieving end looks that bad when they could easily be average survivors vs a low tier killer and still be unable to coordinate against it.
The weirder take is that you compared LCD tactics like camping/tunneling to having a nuke vs 4 sticks.
No offense, but this is survivor victim complex nonsense.
In my time playing, I've come to feel that there are only two scenarios where you are really borderline helpless as a surv/surv team:
Outside of those, there is always totally viable (though perhaps not fun) counterplay, though it's often not counterplay surv teams want to consider (leaving someone essentially to die on hook, or being willing to be that person, for example).
Saying the killer is wielding an nuclear bomb and all the survs have are twigs is god-tier hyperbole. As a killer go try to camp/proxy camp and play the trade attrition game against a really good team of survs. You'll get absolutely rinsed the majority of the time.
Again, these "type B" tactics almost always only work because of lack of game sense and/or being overly altruistic, and is exacerbated in solo by lack of info. But there is no David v. Goliath going on here. If you got wrecked by a camper, they were either Bubba, or you allowed yourself to get played.
But these tactics might feel like you are having a bomb dropped on you when you don't realize you can get out of the blast radius. Good survs don't consistently die to these tactics.
This is not a serious answer.
Surely.
I have a hard time accepting camping Bubbas on any basis, but there is a lot of truth here.
The same applies to tunneling; that fist down doesn't have to be a given. I have watched (I am not spectacular myself) a killer try to catch a surv for ages. I'm sure we all have seen that play out. I have also seen bad killers go back to the well and try to tunnel out the same surv it took them five minutes to down, and throw the game.
Which always circles back to the unpleasant truth: bad killers don't 4K teams of better survivors very often at all. Most of the time, if your team all died, it was because the killer was better. If their tactics seemed low skill and you still all died, follow that to the logical conclusion, unpleasant though it may be.
This isn't 2017. If you get looped for 5 gens, that's on you.
You cannot run forever unless there is a HUGE mismatch of skill.
That's just bullshit.
The entire time the killer is in chase with 1 person, the other 3 people are only limited by their circumstances. If all 3 are up, that 1 person can throw every pallet at every loop and still have a chance of lasting more than 180 seconds. Remember that needing to break a pallet or landing a hit both reset bloodlust, so proper cadences of god pallets can prevent the killer from maintaining (or even achieving) T3 bloodlust the entire chase. Being able to rationalize if a chase is going to be a time sink early is extremely important to prioritization, which is why its always best to focus on weaker loopers (and recognize them as such as early as possible, of course)
not only that, but the point of actions isn't always to escape, sometimes its just to undo or minimize the killer's pressure. If someone on a fresh hook goes down to prevent someone on death hook from being removed from the game, its generally considered a net positive for the survivors, even if they get hooked instead. The whole comp corner meme is specifically because it makes it take longer for the killer to walk to the hook (not to have a better chance of wiggling free, but to give teammates more time to do anything from gens to saboing.)
Basically the important part is to last long enough to do more damage to the killer's momentum than he does to the survivors by eventually catching you. Its the best defense against LCD strats, since they rely on efficiency to make them work time-wise.
So you are telling me, in good faith, that it's the Survivors fault for getting facecamped by Bubba
And this is completely irrelevant in Solo Q.
I could drop every pallet in the map and have a 5 minute chase. 2 gens will pop. Is that my fault? Yes. I queue'd up without a 4-man.
ROFL what???
I know this is off topic but... The use of the atomic bomb as an analogy is a bit sad. (I'm Japanese, so I chuckle)
Now, since one killer and four survivors are asymmetrical, it is a bit difficult to compare them with a button and a piece of stick from an atomic bomb. In that case the kill rate is 100%.
Camping and tunneling is not like pushing a button on an atomic bomb...
It's hard for me to come up with an analogy, but if it's advantageous to focus on one survivor, then it should be. Even if you can secure one kill as a result of doing so, you may still have three people escape.
I agree that the problem is the gap between solo and SWF. When solos are able to work together, the threat of camping and tunneling is lessened. Unless the survivor who is made to do so commits suicide or DC.
Also, tunneling is about going for the snowball after securing a numerical advantage by going for a sure kill of one person, whereas camping is not viable without three people hoping to waste time crouching and unhooking without repairing the generator.
I only play solo and have had plenty of success with it as well. Its not guaranteed but what in this game is? Isn't that half the point?
I think some people have veered a bit off the original point… The game design is flawed so that the hook area is almost always going to give the killer a high probability of getting hits by proxy camping vs solos, which is the vast majority of games. Type B killers exploit this constantly and pretty much make it their go to strategy. If you play in this way, it may be sensible but its low skill. Type A Killers try to avoid this in my experience and just immediately leave the hook area for the most part. When you see players win without any camping in a fairly matched game, that’s generally due to skill. Of course there are exceptions and times when it makes sense to camp, etc. I’m just saying if you play Type B mostly you cant argue you’re skilled. If you pay Type A mostly, you can.
I dont agree. After the update to shake up the meta, I see survivors using all sorts of things. Killers still using slowdown perks (usually multiple).