Dead Hard Rework = Failure
New dead hard is becoming increasingly meta again. It's not unusual at top MMR to see 3-4 dead hards every game. As usual, the community overreacted and declared a perk "dead" only for it to become a meta again a few weeks later. To get the most value out of dead hard, the proper usage is to use it near the pallet making the killer choose between swinging (and proccing dead hard) or eating a pallet stun. In other words, 0 counterplay scenario.
The Dead Hard rework has failed to achieve what it was supposed to do - to prevent uncounterable situations for most of the killers. In fact, it's reasonable to say that it has become even stronger than it was before.
But let's look into arguments that say that the new Dead Hard arguably has more counterplay/is weaker than the old Dead Hard:
1 "You can not use it for distance any more" - this is correct, however, you can use it near the pallet which guarantees a successful endurance hit. Now instead of using it to get to the pallet, you use it when you are near the pallet. And some could say that it's a nerf, right?? Well no, using it in a new way is arguably even stronger compared to before: 1 You gain sprint burst 2 You save a pallet. You literally gain more benefits with the new dead hard.
2 "Just wait it out" - no, you cannot "just wait it out" in some of the scenarios. A good survivor using DH properly is uncounterable by most of the killers. In other words, we're back to the same situation as with old DH where killers either have to choose between taking L or taking L.
3 "It doesn't do anything when not near a pallet" - so did old dead hard? In fact, the new dead hard is even stronger when used in the open as you can gain massive sprint burst if used successfully. Old dead hard, even if used in the open, bought you only a couple of seconds until the killer caught up to you.
4 "You can not use it anymore to gain distance to the window" - the only solid argument that could be said that new DH can be weaker than old DH. With that being said, while this particular point is nerfed, the nerfs are offset by buffs in other scenarios.
5 "It takes skill to use new dead hard" - one of the most oblivious statements to be made. It doesn't take much skill to use new dead hard in an uncounterable way. If a killer is close to you, and you are very near a pallet, press E. Few practice games and you can do it with relative ease and it doesn't even require you to time the killer attack. Congratulations, you just learned an uncounterable mechanic. Most of the community will know how to do this a few months from now.
Conclusion
Ultimately, the Dead Hard rework has changed nothing in terms of preventing uncounterable and unfair scenarios. It has become increasingly meta again and is not hard to utilize it to its most potential. Some could say that new dead hard is even stronger than old dead hard, and that's an insane realization considering old dead hard wasn't nerfed for 5+ years.
Solution
Remove the uncounterable mechanic of using dead hard at a pallet. After using Dead Hard, prevent a survivor from dropping a pallet for X seconds. This way, the perk is actually skilful and rewards the survivor for properly baiting an attack from the killer. There is nothing skilful or fair about using it at a pallet to guarantee a 2nd chance (why does this sound so much like old dead hard hmm)
Comments
To be fair, while a lot of survivors complained that dh was dead, a lot of killers assured that it was just fine now and survivor just needed to get good with it.
And now that they got good, its not ok anymore?
The single thing people were angry about old dead hard was the fact that the killer couldn't do anything to prevent players from doing their ridiculous two-steps-faster dash that could grant them enough distance to extend the chase for a while longer by reaching a far away palet or window. Every single comment, and I mean *every single one* I read was about how broken it was that you could discount-sprint burst mid chase, a.k.a "dead hard for distance" and that's what the rework was set to fix.
Disabling the perk or any other normal gameplay interactions like dropping pallets every time the user is close to something that could further extend the chase is about as stupid as disabling a one-time use perk like Decisive Strike in the end game (which is still probably one of the most stupid decisions they've made and I'm still baffled it made it to the live servers), because it's not about being "fair", you just don't like losing.
Besides, something isn't more or less skillful just because you say so. Old DH could freely be used to extend the chase at any point, which requires less skill. New DH has a tiny 0.5 window of effect where it does anything and can be wasted, it requires more skill to effectively use.
The fact that the timing on when to use it could potentially cause a lose-lose scenario to the killer only makes the play more skillful, and still requires a sprinkle of luck and some game knowledge to correctly lead the killer to the pallet and land exactly to the right spot to force the lose-lose situation. Arrive too early and you may lose distance trying to force the situation. Arrive too late and you just used DH normally and the killer can essentially wait it out.
So, what you're talking about is a very specific situation that, if a player has managed to successfully execute, requires more skill than any other use old dead hard could have had.
Accuse another party of what you are being accused of, great strategy mate. Working well.
Since this is a different topic and your topic, i kinda expected you to stay on topic but if you insist i'll make a post for said other.
Content?
OP does not like getting outplayed by dead hard. He wants dead hard to be disabled when survivor is within 5 meters of a pallet/window.
the successful version of dead hard rework is being useless.
So basically in your eyes, nothing Survivors do takes any skill, and anything they can do that prevents your 4k is bad. Gotcha.
How's the fishing?
They got the bait all set~
....I deserve to be left on hook now
I disagree with your propsed change.
However, I do personally believe Dead Hard is now a better perk than it was prior.
It doesn't look like people are struggling to get value out of new Dead Hard, so I assume the only thing that is holding it back from being as popular as old Dead Hard is its anti-synergy with Deep Wound. The perk is significantly LESS effective against a tunneling camper, making Off the Record & Lithe a more attractive combo for survivors trying to prepare for the worst case scenario.
there are a couple of killers that can COMPLETELY deny this perk:
1 legion (you can't use dead hard if you are already in deep wound state)
2 deathslinger (despite this killer is the shadow of what once he was he can still counter dead hard because he can apply deep wound)
3 pinhead (but only with his purple addon that will gave you deep wounds after breaking his chains while injured)
i won't lie, dead hard when used correctly by someone is even stronger than before, but it doesn't give you the feeling of being robbed anymore, but still, it's annoying to face it when the entire survivors team will have it (especially the auto dead hard users)
People definitely said those things.
Heck there are still people on this forum claiming old Dead Hard wasn't an issue and that it was unfairly nerfed.
Current Dead Hard still has the biggest issue old Dead Hard had - it just isn't fun to play against every game.
No, it's not popular as old dead hard (yet) because of the community's overreaction "dead hard is now dead perk" which still lingers to this day. It also requires some brain cells to use now, so it takes a bit of time to learn. With that being said, it's already super meta at high level and wait a few months (+ a popular youtube will make a video using DH) and everyone will follow.
"Just wait it out" doesn't work all the time in case you haven't experienced a survivor using new DH properly. I bet you also said "just wait it out" with old dead hard too...
Yeah, I don't like being put into a "lose-lose" situation, as probably most community doesn't. I think that's what they call "no counterplay".
Preventing pallet drop is a suggestion to tackle that specific element of dead hard. I don't really care what they do as long as that specific, unfair mechanic is gone.
And stop exaggerating with "within 5 meters of a pallet/window.". I never said this, and you're outright lying.
that does not work 70?% of the time,
Are you basing this on your own plays?
the perk is fine where it is at and the counter your asking for already exists in the form of blood favor maybe just run that gamer?
Running a hex perk to counter dead hard is like telling me to run Shatter Hope to counter boons (actually, even worse)
Is what you want a revert to old DH or just delete DH from the game completely?
Didn't say that it should be reverted to old DH or deleted. Please read it again if you missed it. The perk is in a good state if the uncounterable mechanic gets removed.
which is designed to allow the players to take a hit because they're using it to take hits, get good.
If you say to me "get good", I'll also say to you to "get good" when getting tunnelled or camped.
Just come out and say you want the perk to be deleted from the game because you're not skilled enough to play around it.
The projections... Jesus Christ.
I remember when all the killers said after the survivor nerfs and killer buffs that survivors just had to adapt and re-learn how to survive with the new perks, now that they have killers who get outplayed want more nerfs this community is silly asf and part of the reason why this game is going downhill with every patch.
I can't even understand what you wrote here...
The perk is fine and is very easy to play around and if you cannot secure kills, wins, and downs after all the killer buffs and survivor nerfs that is completely on you. Just adapt.
There is no adaptation to that specific element of DH. The most adapting I have is to pray that survivor is stupid and messes up :)
It's fair now, unless you use the script that auto DH for you, other than that I'd play against 4 DH any day
I don't see "lose-lose" situations as being fair but to each their own.
I mean, yeah, it's far weaker than old DH obviously, it can't counter every power now at the click of a button or completely ignore a bear trap, it just requires quick thinking
Alright, you can't be reasoned with, good to know
It's my personal experience and many console players agree on it. When I play killer pc survivors can react to just anything sometimes and even baiting out does not work. But when I play agains't console survivors it's easy to bait. When I play survivor and press it before killer hits I go sometimes down.
It can still counter almost all of the powers - Wesker's dash, Nurse's M1, Oni dash, Spirit post phasing, Huntress hatchet etc. Absolutely nothing has changed, with the EXCEPTION that countering those powers is even stronger now as you gain sprint burst. They actually buffed this aspect.
It cannot counter the trapper's ability anymore, but then again, you don't need a dead hard in this game to destroy the trapper.
"It requires quick thinking" - disagreed, all it requires is to mash E when you are close to a pallet. Other scenarios - absolutely, but in the pallet scenario, there is no thinking involved besides calculating if you can make it to a pallet before pressing E.
Oh my gosh, you're all about this pallet situation, that ever rarely happens that they pull it off cause 0.5 second window, and then they also reach a pallet, calm down, holy heck
I gave you an argument (+ a hefty description in the initial post). And you are telling me that "I can't be reasoned with" when you don't even provide any counterarguments or explanations. Super ironical.
Happens more than often in my games. And no, 90 % of the time they would go down without DH in the way. A 30+ sec extended chase multiple times per game is 1-2 gens additionally popped.
And I am calm? Please stop with personal insults and stay on the topic.
Well, I don't know what to tell you at this point other than skill issue if you are getting looped for an extra 30+ seconds
Also I never realized telling someone to calm down was an insult, I'll have to take note of that, have a good day 👍
Well, I don't know what to tell you at this point other than skill issue if you are getting looped for an extra 30+ seconds
Hold W + any pallet drop + break is easily 30 seconds. And that's one of the best case scenarios assuming you can end chase fast.
Also I never realized telling someone to calm down was an insult, I'll have to take note of that, have a good day 👍
Me neither, but I got accused of saying an insult by typing "go outside" in the nicest way possible. So just using the same rules as they are applied to me.
Obligatory response to all the replies saying "get good" and amusing visual representation of the community's double standards.
If you get hit by dead hard 90% of the time its on you. If they're right at a pallet, dont swing because they have dead hard. Theyll expect you to do so therefore they're not going to drop the pallet. Another thing, it does take skill. You need to time it almost perfectly in order for it to work. I have used dead hard (ive never used it in my life before) and i only got value out of it after like 5 games. You cant just put this perk on and it'll give you value, you need to get it yourself. As for it still being meta, yes its an exhaustion perk meaning a lot of people are still going to run it. Honestly i see more lithes and sprint bursts compared to DH's
I'm a killer main and have complained about Dead Hard since I started playing during Chains of Hate. That said, I do think in the vast majority of scenarios Dead Hard is both completely fair and considerably worse than it was before. While I understand it is stronger in a few select scenarios and I think it still is good enough to be a meta perk, I see little reason to complain about it most of the time.
I think the issues some people have with new Dead Hard may be exacerbated by the sheer number of people who probably have things like auto DH and other subtle cheats that give them an advantage. Overall I think the devs did accomplish their goal, which was to make DH actually effective at its intended purpose while removing its other utility, being on-command distance and a hard counter to some killer powers.
If you want to hit someone using DH to get to a pallet now, you actually can wait it out if your timing is really precise. Since they can't drop pallets while in the animation, you time an M1 to hit at the exact moment the animation ends, and you'll end up trading with the pallet drop. It's very strong still, but for the most part it's fair.
It's being meta because it works, even average survivors are taking it. You think these average survivors would take a perk continuously if it didn't give them value?
If you get hit by dead hard 90% of the time its on you
This is very incorrect based on my experience playing against many survivors. Are you basing this on your own dead hard usage?
You need to time it almost perfectly in order for it to work.
In most situations - yes, in pallet scenario - no. You can get timing right after 1-2 games.
You cant just put this perk on and it'll give you value, you need to get it yourself
So do most perks in the game, but that's not the point of the discussion.
Theyll expect you to do so therefore they're not going to drop the pallet.
Buddy, I think you're citing an old dead hard counterplay mechanic here. If they time it well, there is no counterplay - either pallet stun or a hit. The timing window is quite generous for survivors. You can get it right after a few games. And if the counterplay depends solely on whether the opposing side can time it or not, then this is an inherently awful game design choice
Honestly i see more lithes and sprint bursts compared to DH's
I've been tracking my killer games, and the most commonly used perk is dead hard. That is not even comparing to other exhaustion perks, it's comparing to ALL PERKS.
If you want to hit someone using DH to get to a pallet now, you actually can wait it out if your timing is really precise. Since they can't drop pallets while in the animation, you time an M1 to hit at the exact moment the animation ends, and you'll end up trading with the pallet drop.
I see great killer mains still not timing it correctly, and proccing endurance all the time. Either the timing is incredibly difficult, or apparently, most (good) killer mains can't get such simple counterplay right. Hmm...
I'd like someone to actually do a video where they analyze the time window to successfully hit an M1 attack when DH is used properly at the pallet. Would settle a debate :)
The timing is fairly difficult because it requires you to react in time or otherwise anticipate the Dead Hard, but it is very possible to do (and forcing pallet trades is already commonplace otherwise) and it does give it counterplay in a situation that is already far less likely to occur given it no longer gives distance. I've done it quite a handful of times, but I've never found it notable enough to be clipworthy. If I play later today and have a chance to do it I'll post it.
And I'm not denying there are still situations in which it doesn't feel fair, like how someone can pretty much guaranteed tank a hit against Blight if he uses Lethal Rush in a dead zone, but they are much fewer and farther in-between, and most of them are concentrated onto a specific subset of already strong killers who are fairly well equipped to deal with the on-hit distance.
So... there is no evidence. I'm inclined to think that the tv/monitor or other factors would have a bigger contribution than the actual platform. If there are any actual input delay tests for the game though I'd love to see them.
Guess most good killer mains are just awful at the game since they can't time DH right.
Additionally, the perk requires super high skill for the survivor side, that's why the pick rate is going through the roof.
These two statements just don't make sense.
1: The pick rate is not going "through the roof" considering it plummeted after the initial change and, according to the stats, still has not yet returned to anywhere near the frequency it was before.
2: I already said Auto DH is both a problem and probably more commonplace than people would think, especially when you're looking at content creators that are frequently targeted by the stream sniping cheats.
3: You're assuming people are always playing insanely focused and tryhard, and if you're using killers like Otz or other content creators as an example, that just isn't the case. They're invested in entertainment value, meaning they balance their attention between chat, commentary and the game fairly evenly. When you watch them on stream, the bulk of the time they are not investing their full attention on the game and tryharding unless they're going for challenges, like win streaks.
4: Because the scenario of someone having the exact distance required that a .5s invulnerability is enough to make a pallet is relatively uncommon, it's also fairly difficult to get practice for.
On a purely technical basis, considering you can very reliably force pallet trades if Dead Hard isn't present, then there is inherently a window during the pallet drop animation in which a survivor can still take damage. Dead Hard happening before that does not change that time window whatsoever, since all it is is swinging at the beginning of the pallet drop animation before the stun hitbox comes out.
1: The pick rate is not going "through the roof" considering it plummeted after the initial change and, according to the stats, still has not yet returned to anywhere near the frequency it was before.
It is 2nd most used survivor perk based on 6.10 statistics. This was after the perk was declared "dead". It's safe to assume its pick rate is even higher now. Will it reach old DH levels? Probably not, but it will still be overwhelmingly meta which is counterproductive to what the patch was supposed to achieve.
2: I already said Auto DH is both a problem and probably more commonplace than people would think, especially when you're looking at content creators that are frequently targeted by the stream sniping cheats.
Fair.
3: You're assuming people are always playing insanely focused and tryhard, and if you're using killers like Otz or other content creators as an example, that just isn't the case. They're invested in entertainment value, meaning they balance their attention between chat, commentary and the game fairly evenly. When you watch them on stream, the bulk of the time they are not investing their full attention on the game and tryharding unless they're going for challenges, like win streaks.
I mean, most of the time they know they have dead hard and they still get baited. They even tell us that DH will happen before the pallet and still get hit by it... So obviously they know most of the time (+ they're all experienced killers). So it's either extremely hard to time it, or I guess they're just bad at the game.
4: Because the scenario of someone having the exact distance required that a .5s invulnerability is enough to make a pallet is relatively uncommon, it's also fairly difficult to get practice for.
Happens in most of my games so I can't relate this from my experience. And most survivors got the hang of it pretty easily. I noticed its strength on the first day of 6.10, and even messaged my friend.
On a purely technical basis, considering you can very reliably force pallet trades if Dead Hard isn't present, then there is inherently a window during the pallet drop animation in which a survivor can still take damage. Dead Hard happening before that does not change that time window whatsoever, since all it is is swinging at the beginning of the pallet drop animation before the stun hitbox comes out.
I am not sure if you're saying this, so please correct me. Most Dead Hards are used when the survivor is about to go down from my experience. Basically, in such scenarios, there wouldn't even be a trade, it would be a down. They wouldn't use it when they are at the pallet, they would use it when they are near the pallet. In such cases they have short time window of invulnerability, which is just enough for them to get in a position to drop the pallet. So if you wait for that window out, you can swing easily. But I am pretty sure you would get still stunned because if a survivor drops pallet as you are hitting them, they always win. The only case when that is different is when your animation is about to finish, in such case you're able to get hit and/or pallet drop. But I can already tell you to achieve this you need quite a long time period which is where no counterplay comes. It's very hard to achieve it without survivor improperly timing DH.
Every time i fall for a dead hard i can see how i couldve avoided it. And no, i barely even play survivor
The timing is not always the same. You really need to analyze the killer youre up against. If he swings at you from a bit further away, his mistake and you get away DH. If hes right behind you (basically sniffing your back) and is hesitating to swing, you have to be really lucky and guess when hes going to hit you
No, this works even better now. If you see the dead hard animation, the 0.5s are probably already over and you can swing because remember they cant drop the pallet during that time. So there is a small window where you can hit them (some luck involved but not impossible).
There shouldn't be a perk that makes killers afraid to swing. And this perk makes killers terrified to swing because of they do, the survivor takes a shot of energy juice and suddenly becomes Usain Bolt and dashes to the other side of the map.
The dead hard rework wasn't a failure. It does what the devs wanted it to do now. Be a third health state, and doesn't have a 40+% pickrate anymore. Just because dead hard is still a strong perk and not garbage tier doesn't mean the rework was a failure.
The point of dead hard rework was:
1 To prevent uncounterable scenarios for killers, especially M1 ones -> Failure, as such mechanic still exists with new dead hard.
2 To reduce pick rate/shake up meta -> Initially succeeded but already becoming a strong meta perk again
They reworked dead hard, and the new one still has an uncounterable mechanic. How do you rework a perk and not address its main grievance? It acts, a lot of times, as an uncounterable 2nd chance perk. Same as old DH.
This version of it actually has an answer for that, including when they use a script to auto deadhard: Miss on purpose. Swing wayy over their head. Add another layer to the mindgame instead of lamenting it.
Remember, they can't put down pallets or vault during the animation. block the pallet and interrupt their routing to get a fast vault at a window and suddenly they are dead harding into nothing.
dead hard would be way too easy to counter if you could wait out the perk every single time. A killer waiting out dead hard can swing in 0.05 seconds. Human reaction time is around 0.3 seconds. Dead hard would be way too inconsistent of a perk to run. The goal of change in my opinion was to make the perk less consistent at creating lose-lose scenario's so that it is more align with other exhaustion perks. Parrying a 0.05 frame attack relies on extreme amount of intuition. Dead hard would have no consistency as perk. nobody would want to use the perk at that point.
Dead hard is suppose to be second chance towards killer powers and is second chance towards killer lunging. Dead hard fulfills those roles now. I notice dead hard affect my chases as killer a lot less because I can play around dead hard a lot more. personally I think the perk is in a good spot. it rewards survivor for strategic use of the perk without being overly consistent for every survivor that uses it.
Actually in one of the dev streams they mentioned Dead Hard by name before ever announcing the 40 perk update, and directly stated that they believed it to have too much utility. In that dev update you reference they're talking about the entire 40 perk update being a meta shake-up, which is not specific to Dead Hard. And its usage rate definitely did fall a considerable amount despite it still being popular.
https://medal.tv/games/dead-by-daylight/clips/D5IBgr6TkUk-v/d1337usRHTPW?invite=cr-MSxZeTIsNjA2Nzk1Nyw
This is the strat I'm referring to. Nobody in this game had Dead Hard but the principle is the same since they're traveling the same speed, and I didn't really feel like grinding out games until I had a chance to do it. You time the hit so that it happens between the start of the drop animation and when the actual stun hitbox comes out. The timing is tight but you can definitely do it if you wait until the last minute to swing. If you slightly mistime it/the survivor waits long enough for Dead Hard to work you can still theoretically punish them if your reactions are fast enough by deliberately missing them and bodyblocking the pallet, but that's a bit of a fringe case since that's even more difficult to pull off.
While in theory the survivor could have tried to wait for my swing and dodge thereafter, that would also put them at a slight disadvantage on the timing since I'd be closer to them by then. With this strat it's really a case of which person reads the other better IMO.
I still see it nowhere near as much and the bulk of players I face range anywhere from 1500-4000 hours. I see it on average maybe 1-2 times per game (purely anecdotally) compared to my prior of 3-4 before 6.1. And yes, I understand it is down across all levels, but its usage still dropped by around half at all levels, meaning there is most definitely some inevitable decrease in high level since it was predominantly used in high level to begin with. Even still, even if I saw 3-4 every game it's nowhere near as bad as it was before because in the majority of scenarios if you get hit by it it's relatively fair.
Not to assume I know literally anything about you, but being honest your argument of "high level survivors are still using it and maybe you just don't know" comes as a direct assumption of my skill level and IMO comes off pretty similarly to the argument I see so often on the forums, being "you don't face the comp squads I'm facing every game" which from my personal experience with people is also usually an overestimation of one's own skill level.
I did actually! and then someone pointed out to me that people use it for distance and I said oh my bad you're actually right, BUT GUESS WHAT THEY REMOVED!
so yes the answer truly is to just wait it out, bait it, yeah thats about it, if you wait long enough they'll use it, and if it's at a pallet, you probably should be respecting or not either way, you would've made that decision regardless of thinking of dead hard it's a pallet, of course you gotta out smart it. I don't really want to hear excuses
I mean dead hard is super easy to counter. I miss a lot of DH triggers as survivor but as killer as soon as i realise a survivor has DH it's so easy to bait out. It's hardly "uncounterable"
I have good tv with very low imput lag other games work just fine. Just went down to oni when pressed dh clearly before hit he was even pretty far away. On pc that would not happen I can say.
So more anecdotes and not evidence. Again, I feel like you might be attributing it to the wrong place, since the input lag could be different between each platform the game is on, but it will still be minimal, and certainly not just pc vs everything else. I'm also not saying this specifically to say you're wrong or something, as I am interested in what the input delay is on each platform as well.