Why do the devs love NOED so much?
I don't get it. Everybody and their mother thinks NOED at least needs a change of some sort but it hasn't been touched in a very very long time? Why? Why is it that the forums gets complaints about it basically every day but the devs pretty much haven't even spoke of it?
inb4 I get a ton of "but dead hard" replies.
Tagged:
BHVR
Comments
No It's not because people expect to escape it's because they can play amazing all game and then die at the endgame because the killer was rewarded for playing badly all game. It's completely backwards and against good game design which this game struggles with a lot tbh.
Well yeah its survival horror if you aren't scared of death why are you trying to escape? Maybe this game isn't for you perhaps something where there is no threat of death and everybody is friends is more your thing, because you seem very agitated by the theme and thought of dieing or being elimated appears to really upset you.
There are all sorts of tools you can use to counter NOED why not trying to run some of them. You can also just take note of totems and remember where they are go back and check for NOED and cleanse it. You can also just leave if its not looking like you'll get out because of it.
I'll give you an example, I don't like flashlights or being blinded. I have the skills to avoid it but its easier to just run lightborn so I often do that way I'm, not concerned about it. Flashlights don't need to be nerfed or removed I have playstyle and perks that let me counter them. So I use them and any annoyance I feel about getting chain blinded is totally on me.
The whole "I have X number of hours" argument is always so lame, it doesn't give you any greater authority with respect to mechanics in fact it in this case it demonstrates your inability to play because with that many hours you should know better and not go down to 100 hour killer with NOED at all. You screwed up there... own your loss.
If you didn't do bones, then you played badly.
This post is you demonstrating your expectation to escape. If you played amazing you would be out the door.
You played amazing till NOED popped then you ######### up. Unless you are out the door anything can and still may happen in game and its all legit.
This is exactly what I'm talking about the, "I played amazing I deserve to escape". Well guess what you DIDN'T play amazing because you forgot about NOED and/or didn't counter it and died accordingly.
Its not backwards its survival horror and you failed to survive, own your loss.
It's not that I failed to escape, it's that the game rewarded the killer for losing.
But you can play amazing all game and die in the endgame without being hit by NOED. All NOED does is give the killer a third Devour stack, effectively, it's far from uncounterable and you can play safely if you're worried about being hit by it so you can cleanse it as soon as possible.
As for being rewarded... are they? Seems to me like good killers and bad killers get the same tool, and the difference in outcome is due to whether they know what to do with it.
They didn't lose, you died. They ran a strong perk that you failed to avoid and you died end of story.
Everything that happened prior to that event is irrelevant othetr than in the context of you being salty about your death. If you avoided the killer all game and smashed out the gens great but you also...
Failed to note totems and cleanse NOED
Failed to open exit gates or timed the exit gate poorly leaving not enough time to save someone on hook or cleanse NOED
Went for that bad save anyway even though its a really poor play and went down
Failed to avoid the killer in endgame
Failed to be far enough from death hook that NOED shouldn't really an issue and if you aren't on death hook then there is often plenty of time to find and cleanse it especially if the killer is camping leaving you free to search.
Failed to play cautiously, competently or in a coordinated manner meaning the whole team went down in the endgame together.
Couldn't effectively judge the cost of staying in game against NOED so was overly alturistic making you more suceptible to NOED
All of these points are a failure of the survivor team and nothing to do with whatever the killer is doing.
The killer hadn't lost, they had a strong endgame perk that the survivors failed to anticipate and counter. The perception that they had already won is part of the survivors failure to counter NOED.
Google the video of the cyclist who celebrates too soon raises his hands and slows down at the finish line and is then passed and beaten as a result... that's you in this scenario. Read the fable the Hare and the Tortoise the cockiness of being ahead is part of what makes up the higher impact of NOED for you.
Its a bitter pill to swallow but its not NOED's fault this is what I mean when I say, own your loss.
All of these points are a failure of the survivor team and nothing to do with whatever the killer is doing.
"You need to be immaculate, or else the killer gets a free kill"
Does that sound at all balanced?
All of that is very misleading or a stretching of the truth. It is not reasonable to cleanse all 5 totems and still make it out against a good killer. It really isn't. NOED activates right when the last gen pops so you could be mid chase and just go down for free cuz the killer is faster and you're exposed. Super dumb. The problem is that it doesn't have reasonable counterplay and rewards the killer for losing all of the gens. There are other end game perks that I'm fine with like Remember Me, Blood Warden, and No Way Out. Those are balanced and have reasonable counter play. NOED is way too OP for the activation requirements which is basically just play the game whether you do good or bad.
you can get away with being sloppy and ignoring game mechanics sounds less balanced to me that accounting for and being aware of what may happen in game.
Its not immaculate to have a bit of basic common sense in game, nothing I've said requires uber skills to achieve outside of some basic game sense. Thinking that basic common sense is immaculate is a shocking indictment of you as gamer I'd be caustious with that statement.
Its not rocket science, its just easier to cry foul blame everything but yourself and scream for nerfs than it is to learn a lil game sense. Moreso if you have steam rolled the killer due to inexperience/out play, as often people claim when railing against NOED.
You are a team. its perfectly reasonable to cleanse 5 totems as a team.
Ok you go down mid chase to NOED you are either on first hook giving plenty of time for your team to find and cleanse NOED if camped, or get unhooked and continue the game if the killer goes for another chase.
You go down and you aren't on first hook then you are in trouble NOED or not.
Loosing gens doesn't mean killer bad or survivors good. Completeing all gens doesn't mean good survivors deserve escape.
Its unreasonable expect to make it out against a good killer NOED or not, it takes work and you may fail. Just as its unreasonable to expect 4k against good survivors.
NOED is a strong perk and should be always be expected just as when playing killer you wait out DS if they have it or not, keep an eye on slugged survivors for UB, anticipate deadhard, etc etc. Strong perks requiring more mindful game play, they help average players do well and make good players do really well. As should be expected.
stop expecting a kill because you have a perk
I don't expect to kill anyone with NOED nor have I indicated that this is the case in any argument I've made. If it gets cleansed and everyone gets out then that's me not getting value for my perk kudos to the survivors for countering a strong perk. That's an earned escape.
If that's all you got I say try again.
You don't have to cleanse all 5, although there definitely is enough time to do so, even against a good killer. In fact, where you can't cleanse all 5 you make your life more difficult by insuring NoED pops on the 1-2 totem spawns you didn't identify.
Instead, make a note every time you pass some bones and revisit them upon the collapse. If you saw 3 bones and don't do any, you have a 3/5ths or better chance that NoED spawns somewhere you already know then if you cleanse those three and guarantee it rears it's head elsewhere.
Your arguments are lazy and your definition for what constitutes 'reasonable' counterplay is farcical.
Hold on. So we've gone from "Noed just rewards bad killers" to "it's impossible to stop noed against a good killer"
Well, which is it? Is it a perk for bad killers you would totally win against without it, or is it being used by killers so good that they keep pressure on you all game which is why you die to it?
Also regarding the "but the killer lost all 5 gens" nonsense you keep trying to use as an argument? The Game is balanced around 2k, you can't get 2k/2e without all gens being done.
Therefore the game is specifically balanced around the idea that all 5 gens will be completed in MOST matches. Trying to claim that something the devs literally balance the game around happening almost every match into a lose condition for the killer, or a win condition for yourself, shows you lack understanding of game balance and flow.
Nowhere did I say it's impossible to stop noed against a good killer, I said "It is not reasonable to cleanse all 5 totems and make it out against a good killer".
As for the 2k/2e thing that's another point against NOED. It's super easy to just down 1 person early game, camp them to death, then squeeze out another kill with NOED in the endgame and boom, it's a free 2k for doing basically nothing, it's why basement bubba is extremely dumb.
Of course just finishing all 5 generators is not an immediate win for survivors but my point is that noed is unreasonable for the activation requirement which is that you played decent enough that the survivors didn't get enough time to cleanse all 5 dull totems whether they knew you had it or not. That is like every single game unless you for some reason are going against absolute babies who have so little map pressure that you can spend the time to find and cleanse all 5 dull totems for no reason at all. It makes no logical sense.
You talk about gamesense, but you describe it as 'not a big deal' to have to stay off the killer's radar in the last segments of the game.
By the time NOED is about to pop, there's only three locations the survivors need to go, drastically increasing the likelihood he'll find a survivor. Then when NOED pops, it goes down to two locations. Add in the movespeed boost, and not getting caught during end-game is pretty damn unlikely. At least one sod is likely going to get into a chase at that point and will likely get smacked by the instadown.
At this point, the killer is also entirely within their right to facecamp whoever they get, so that one instadown is far more dangerous than it is at any earlier point.
'Just cleanse then!'
But that's RNG dependant due to the way it spawns, and RNG does not a fair perk make.
'Just cleanse 5 before repairing 5!'
That's a full extra gen of time spent working on countering a perk the killer might not even have. Which takes NOED from being an instadown in end-game to the best slowdown perk in the game, and an utterly broken one if the killer doesn't equip it.
NOED has by far the most involved counterplay of any perk in the entire game, but it doesn't pair this with a moderate effect. Its effect is the strongest in the game bar one, which is also the highest effort, highest risk perk in the game: Devour Hope. Comparatively, NOED has extremely low effort, extremely low risk, and really high reward.
Kind of like Dead Hard.
EDIT: And none of that is taking camping into consideration.
As much logical sense as a perk that requires you to lose a chase to use. Or one that only activates when you are put into the dying state.
Noed has the exact same counter as every other hex perk. Boon/destroy the totem carrying the hex. All of them have the same RNG factor for where it spawns, with noed you have the advantage that you were all over the map beforehand and know which 5 of the 12 possible spawn points actually has a totem in it at all, not to mention there is time to boon and destroy them, which lowers the RNG.
What you are talking about is the separate tactic for stopping it from activating at all. And yes, that takes some doing and is unique. Because NOED Is the only perk that can be removed from the match before it has the chance to activate at all.
Trying, as you continually do, to pretend the entire and only counter to noed is cleansing 5 totems, especially in the boon meta where there aren't ever 5 dull totems when the last gen is powered, is absolutely disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. I'm not going around this bush with you again, I'm just disappointed to see you clinging to the exact same fallacies week after week.
I know you don't believe that boons are so common that there aren't any dull totems left. Please just stop lying to try and win arguments on the internet, it's really not cool.
I didn't say there weren't any. Just that there aren't 5. Usually it's 2-3. That's a 33-50% chance that the first totem you find will be the right one.
The amount of times I've been in a swf and been like, hey we should cleanse totems at the last gen because they probably have NOED, and my team doesn't do it just for them all to go down at the end when NOED pops is astounding lol I literally laugh as I open the exit gate and leave them all 😂
It's crazy that it has such an easy counter and survivors just refuse to do it despite knowing that it's a popular perk. You can't really complain that you chose to gen rush instead of cleansing a few totems and then dying to NOED at the end because of it.
Noed has the exact same counter as every other hex perk.
Yes, but at this point, you have to compare it to other hexes, and NOED blows all of them out of the water in terms of power. This is like saying CoH isn't a problem because it has the same counter as Exponential, and Exponential isn't a problem, so...
Because NOED Is the only perk that can be removed from the match before it has the chance to activate at all.
This is also not true. In fact, NOED is probably the perk that this is the least likely to occur on.
Ruin can go down before it affects a single gen. Lullaby can go down before a single stack. Devour Hope can go down before a single stack. And then there's circumstantial perks that may never encounter their appropriate trigger condition. What if you run Lightborn into a team that doesn't use flashlights?
Lots of perks are perfectly able to be flat-out ignored, lots of perks can be brought down before they have a chance to activate. NOED is not one of them.
'But five totems!'
And at that point, the survivors have spent an absolute minimum of 70 seconds of work effort to clear those five totems out, making it almost on par with how effective Thanatophobia would be if all survivors were injured literally all the time. So at that point, is NOED really deactivated? Or did it just shift from being a permanent expose perk to one of the best slowdown perks in the game?
Trying, as you continually do, to pretend the entire and only counter to noed is cleansing 5 totems
Oh, I don't. I think it's even in this thread where I point out that doing 5 totems is objectively the wrong counter to NOED.
But the alternative is to go hunting for a totem that RNG could've dumped anywhere on the map while the killer is exerting the most pressure they ever will during the entire game with a 4% bonus movespeed, instadowns, and a pretty clear idea of where the survivors are going to be.
Flat-out comparing it to its closest relative, Devour Hope, shows NOED to have absolutely no build-up requirement, while being protected by four other totems.
Regardless of whether it's balanced or not, NOED is just flat garbage design and needs to be reworked.
There is nothing wrong with some involved counter play.
Its perfectly healthy for the game to involve survivors having more to think about more than just holding M1 on gens and running around the same rock.
Only a fool cleanses 5 totems, use your head and remember where they are. Throughout a game I’ll typically spot at least three and have a good chance of find a NOED proc if I’m not already detained.
1 gens worth of time which is nothing in game terms. If one gen worth of time is causing you to lose the problem is you.
RNG makes games unpredictable and is a not a terrible thing. Some element of randomness is essential for there to be any kind of variation in game play. People talk about RNG and guesswork like it’s some kind of enemy of fun but everything being directly predictable and perfectly counterable without any random variation to mix it up is the embodiment of dull.
NOED is strong sometimes you’ll succeed sometimes not. It’s a great perk that makes the endgame threatening and exciting. If the killer isn’t threatening then why are you trying to flee in the first place. That’s the whole point of the game, survival horror.
I stand by my original assessment of this thread, own your loss and stop whining about dying in the endgame.
Awfully assuming, are we? I mostly like to play killer, having some sort of requirement to get NOED doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. Even if it's something more like 6 hooks instead of 8, there should be something that you need to do to earn it. Because as it is right now, you could literally afk all game and then get rewarded with NOED because it has no requirement other than having an available dull totem. It isn't even that bad of a requirement either, if you're worth your salt you should be able to get at least 6 hooks before the gates are powered no problem
Having it done your way seems kind of strange to me honestly. In order to get an instant-hit down, you need to get a hook, which requires 2 hits? You might as well just use Starstruck at that point, that doesn't even require you to hook and essentially does the same thing if you bring Agitation as well, or if you have a big enough terror radius.
Making the survivors need to cleanse two totems would make NOED even more powerful than it is now, even if they know about it as soon as the gates are powered. I still think my idea would be better, if 8 hooks is too much then make it 6 hooks or something, if you're good enough then you should be able to get it easy, and it rewards you for playing well, just like Huntress Lullaby and Devour Hope reward you for playing well, or even hook-related perks in general like Pain Res or BBQ. Being rewarded for doing literally nothing with NOED doesn't make a whole lot of sense with how powerful it can be