DMS is Broken on Artist
Artist has great pressure on generators with DMS, she is almost unstoppable. She has pressure even in chase. She was rare before but not anymore. I don't know i faced with how many Artists with this PR + DMS combo at this week.
This feels like Pre-Nerf Freddy. Ruin + Pre-Nerf Undying + Tinkerer with slow-down add-ons. And put snares around loops and make survivor out and take hits.
Now Artist has same issue. Strong gen pressure and strong anti-loop. Before DMS's buff, only counter of her was Shift + W. So she was losing generators if she would run with you. But now even in chases she can force to block generators.
I can not see any counter. Please tell me how i will counter her while she is blocking generators with DMS and regression with PR.
Comments
Why do you need a "100% counter" in the first place?
Play her. For the love of all things sacred. Damaging people at a distance might as well not exist unless the survivor begs for it.
I agree, I said multiple times above damaging people at range is a gimmick, her real strengths are long range information, aura tracking in a chase and zoning at loops. That’s why I said removing her ability to do damage at extreme range isn’t a big nerf.
Its not a nerf that needs to happen at all. If she couldn't do damage at all from longer distances, survivors would have zero reason to respect her power from long ranges. You just want to be able to sit on the gen without the risk of being an obvious target.
1. It's as close as you can get to 100% in a multiplayer game. Smart players always try to counter the counter, that's what makes pvp fun.
2. I brought up bbq because the mindset is similar to countering both. Watch for the pickup, and dont be caught out of position when your teammate meets the hook. With DMS it's easier, as you don't need to go for a locker, just not be on the gen. (And wouldn't hurt to move a bit away when facing any ranged killer)
What does dms do again?
Blocks a gen if the survivor let's go of it during a 45 second window after getting a hook.
It's pretty broken on Artist. It needs a few changes.
AFTER a survivor is hooked, it activates and starts its timer, but doesn't do anything yet. While its timer is active, if a survivor lets go of a gen, the gen is blocked for the remainder of the timer. It does not regress the gen, and the killer can't cancel it early in order to be able to start regression themselves. Its basically locked in a neutral state.
Oh, also, the timer doesn't refresh with each hook. If there are 5 seconds left on the timer when another survivor is hooked, the perk is wasted for that hook entirely.
Legit let go of the gen before the hook wait for her to snipe the gen and get back on it. If she really wanted to injure you she would have to go for you or focus solely on you instead of sending more crows to your teammates.
I don't think it's overpowered or broken. Is it strong? Most definitely. But hey it's not ruin undying so 🤷
And it actually has counterplay, you just have to play around it. Much like killers have to play around dead hard, ds, unbreakable, circle of healing, bt, boil over, flashlights, firecrackers, flashbangs, soul guard, and many other things.
But her extreme range ability is sort of what makes her unique.
If survivors don’t respect the ability at long range they’re giving the Artist free information every time a crow hits them. It’s the info that’s valuable, not the snipe gimmick.
She would still have an extreme range ability for info, just not extreme damage. Also I would argue her short range aura tracking and zoning is also unique.
So you get to watch them sit on the gen and not move, without being able to punish it short of crossing the entire map? cool.
I still don't see how DMS gives that much more value than Deadlock. When a gen is blocked it doesn't regress; Cheryl's perk Repressed Alliance blocks gens as well so that the gen can't be regressed to protect it from the killer. If regression could take place DMS would be incredibly strong but it just stops the gen at the point it's at for right now and encourages survivors to work on multiple gens at the same time (which is a downside for the killer).
And BBQ likewise shows you info on distant survivors, but people still think that information is valuable.
BBQ also isnt even remotely the same thing? Its aura reading isn't even very useful on most killers, its primary use is for points.
Well your complaint about the aura was you get to see them but be too far away to pressure them off. How is that any different from BBQ?
Also I don’t use BBQ personally but I know there are quite a lot of people who use it just for the aura.
That damage is only available if you either call her bluff or don't respect it. It's really easy to see coming and dodge, even if she fires a barrage.
the aura is only worth the perk slot on killers that can utilize it well. Killers like Pig, Billy, Nurse, Blight who use it either to know where everyone is, or to start the next chase as quickly as possible. Its also a perk that gets chosen in a loadout and not, you know, the killer's base power.
This isn't like pinhead's addon where his chains can injure immediately on hit. The artist's ability to injure survivors by hitting them while they have crows already on them is specifically to punish survivors who ignore her power. The time to remove crows vs the cooldown to fire more is a pretty clear indication of that.
Still haven't seen an artist in ages, but keep telling me how DMS Artist is an epidemic we must nerf now.
I have to use her because I spent my shards on her for PR as a teachable, now she has like 80 envelopes to use up D:
Posting perfectly reasonable counters isn't allowed here. Survivors want everything handed to them. Hence: Dead Hard. Move along.
Unless I'm on...maybe Wraith, Freddy or Nurse, I only use it for the BP. Sometimes on Cenobite, but it's as reliable as a chocolate hammer for finding the box.
NOED is a bad example here honestly, it was never nerfed because it's not strong perk in the first place, you can literary counter it before it even comes into play
Exactly, I said the same thing a few times already. Her extreme range damage is a gimmick, it's not a key part of her ability set.
I'm not sure why you're italicizing the killer's base power as if it has anything to do with anything. Doctor has all sorts of tracking in his base ability kit, are you saying he shouldn't because other tracking perks exist? What does a tracking ability being part of a killer's base abilities have to do with anything in this thread?
Also taking away the ability to do damage at extreme range doesn't take away the ability to do damage at up to 30 meters. Survivors still can't ignore crows when the Artist is in the area even if they hypothetically took away the ability to do damage with them beyond that range.
Because the killer's base power is intended to either help them get injures, get downs, or both. A perk that is optional, can be applied to any killer, and only gives information is very clearly NOT intended for the same purpose. Anything built into a killer's kit directly is there for a purpose to aid them in either chase (antiloop,) or catching survivors off guard (stealth, or mobility.) Crows do literally neither of those things.
Its funny you keep mentioning doctor, since his power prevents vaults/pallet drops/even dead hard. Crows do none of those things. She has to land a skillshot that has a placement and release delay. The kicker is that she either needs to do it when there are absolutely zero physical obstructions, or she needs to land it twice within a period where a survivor holding the button to disperse her crows is only 1 second shorter by default than her ability to place and release more crows... or the survivor ignores her power completely and then gets confused and cries on the floor when they get downed (assuming they were injured to begin with.)
This is one of the easiest to counter powers in DBD history yet people still complain without taking a minute to learn how it actually works. You got your absolutely safe built in counterplay, yet you refuse to use it.
As for the 30 meters argument, you clearly don't even understand how it works in a simple loop, why would you pretend to understand what impact it would have at 30+ meters versus 28?
It's just annoying in solo queue when DMS always activates on my gen because I'm the only one doing gens, but Pain Resonance is pretty simple to counter and DMS can actually help you spread out gen progress to make up for your ######### teammates.
this hurts ya, but all you gotta do is alternate with another gen. just remember, DMS means there's an extremely high chance they're not running pop, let alone them being able to use it on said gen. The gen that gets "suddenly blocked" is like a free misdirect at that point.
What are you talking about that I don't understand how the power works in a simple loop? Her crows are very strong at zoning survivors out of loops and away from vaults and pallets.
And where have I ever "complained about Artist"? I'm a killer main, I think Artist is a fun killer. I'm not "refusing to use a counterplay against her ability".
And why are you pretending that her ability to hypothetically do damage at very long range is anything but a gimmick? You're on the one hand agreeing with me that it's extremely easy to counter taking damage at very long range but then on the other hand saying that if that aspect of her ability set was removed it would be a significant nerf. It can't be both.
They can zone survivors out of being able to take advantage of a loop because she slows herself down to place them, which creates a mindgame vs the survivor just leaving the loop (hint on how to mindgame her btw.) As for complaing about her, you're directly trying to justify a both unnecessary and unrational nerf to her for literally no reason. You might not have directly said she's op plz nerf, but you're asking her map pressure to be gutted with little to no justification.
It IS extremely easy to counter her long range damage potential, and your argument is "well then get rid of it" instead of "maybe survivors should rub two brain cells together and hold A or D for a moment"
The entire point of her power at long ranges is to both get information, and punish survivors for not taking her seriously. The clown is a beast in chase, yet his map pressure is awful specifically because people ignore him if that purple fluff aint in their faces.
I mean, If the damage at range is, as you say, a gimmick, then why remove it at all? Why spend the time changing something with no real effect on gameplay?
You're completely confusing what I'm saying. To reiterate
Also you mentioned Clown, but Artist is more like Doctor. Clown only has chase, that's it. Artist and Doctor have both anti-loop and solid tracking. She's basically on par with Doctor. She has potentially longer range tracking but has to more actively manage it, and her auras in chases are a bit better than Doctor's passive hallucinations and periodic screams. Doctor's anti-loop doesn't cause damage directly but is still effective at blocking survivors at vaults and dropped pallets. However his Madness has some innate slowdown which is useful to give him a bit more time in the match.
Finally I'm not sure why you think a survivor who just ignores the crows at long range is "doing so safely". If you don't remove the crows they never go away so Artist knows where you are the entire time and can come after you whenever you likes. Even without extreme range damage all she has to do is get within about normal terror radius and launch a crow and you can get hit. Survivors still are going to be taking a risk if they never remove crows, even if Artist is out of range, because sooner rather than later she'll be in range since she knows you're there.
The whole point of this thread from the beginning was working under an assumption that Artist plus Dead Man's Switch is broken. Under than assumption, one way to fix it would be to remove that gimmicky long range damage because it would have minimal impact on Artist's who don't use Dead Man's Switch, would leave DMS unchanged for other killers, but would still address what potentially makes Artist+DMS broken in the first place.
If you honestly think her anti-loop is on par with doctor's primary ability use, who also has his static shock as a secondary power entirely, you're losing your own point from the onset. The reason I mention Clown is because his power suffers horribly from map pressure while being good in loop specifically because survivors ignore it outside of chase since it they have zero reason to respect it. They hear a jake screaming multiple times elsewhere in the map? cool, that means they're 100% safe from the killer until they're downed or the clown disengages and comes your way. Same with Demo shouts from a mile away while someone else is being chased. The Artist is in a situation where, even those situations, if youre sitting there ignoring a swarm of snuggly boiz in your face, she can punish you for not respecting her power. That alone gives her map pressure, something most killers (including those with strong antiloop) desperately need. It IS the weakest part of her kit, but removing it singlehandedly allows survivors to outright ignore her power, which is a bad change.
Just because something is easy to counterplay, doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. especially if its entire reason for existing is to punish people who ignore it. Freddy's powers are worthless against people who are awake, should we just remove snares and fake pallets simply because survivors can just use alarm clocks anyway?
Its not a problem at all though, and multiple counterplays have been provided. You know how to fix it? survivors let go of the damn gen and do literally anything else (including another gen) for 45 seconds or less. What a horrifying concept.
Actually, you know what? lets remove Legion's iri pin, and Spirits Prayer Beads as well. Survivors might think the killer is nearby and let go of the gen which would be the end of the world apparently.
Bad and wrong assumption leads to bad and wrong solutions. DMS isnt broken on artist.
Can they just do a full rework of artist's power? It's extremely boring to play as, I have more fun playing pyramid head and nemesis than playing bird lady, even though all three are anti loop. I expected her to have a canvas or something to paint her different powers, and when her power was shown, it honestly looked extremely boring and frustrating to use, I mean IT IS. Hell, it's not even fun going against her either, you end up holding W, even though with other anti loop like nemesis and PH, you have some fun counterplay, like greeding pallets, or juking PH's judgement. The counter play to artist is literally just to hold W. How fun.
You can’t bluff people out of dead hard for distance
Any killer perk that is clearly broken will be described in these forums as "strong but not op" because god forbid killer mains admitting something is clearly unbalanced on their side.
But then again, some of them think on release undying was "balanced" 🛌
There are other ways to loop an Artist then to just hold shift+w. Just running from her is the lazy way out when you do not want to try it at all. Artist has a pretty good tell when she sets her crows, she slows down loads when doing so and you can even see the Crows.
I agree that Artist with DMS can be hard to deal with. But what is so bad about this? Finally you get to see some other perks aside from Pop/Ruin/Tinkerer/Undying and the meta changes a bit. This is a good development. Crying about DMS is just like Killers who cry about the mere concept of Boons...we want a shift in the meta and then when it comes.
I am quit happy to finally face some different perks and I am also happy to finally see another Killer aside from Blight and Nurse having some strong points.
The only thing they should change is the fact that Pain Resonance can affect generators who are already regressing (Ruin). This should get changed because it makes little sense to me.
The idea should always be to nerf Deadmans by the way. Anybody suggesting that we nerf Artist is on a pretty wrong track. Perks should be balanced around Killers and not the other way around. A Killer should feel good, fun and rewarding for both sides. Artist brings this. If anything the perk has to change and not the one Killer who is good with it.
Sorry to tell you this but that is quit personal.
My friends have a blast playing Artists and comment on how she is a pretty good concept of a Killer with good visual, chase theme and ability. Pretty personal as well because we all have different taste. I for one do not play her because she is just not my style.
Bu I have a blast playing against Artist and as an example chaining two loops into each other. With only 3 crows she can only do so much. I think survivors will just have to adapt to her power and come up with a few counters and then those have to become a bit more widespread.
Thinking that survivors have so little creativity and abilities to counter a Killer feels a bit like an insult to them. Shift+W as the best counterplay is like telling the Killer just to "camp and tunnel if you want kills"...
Again, my whole post is working under the hypothetical assumption that it IS a problem. I’ve never said the combo is actually broken, I said IF it’s broken then this is a way to correct it that has a minimal effect on Artist and no other effects on any other killer.
So here’s the question for you - if it actually turned out that combo was broken, what solution would you propose? Because so far your entire argument has been “but it’s not broken, you just don’t know how to play against Artist”. But if the devs decide that it IS broken in their eyes then your opinion whether or not it is won’t matter, so in that case what would you prefer them to change?
And if it’s not broken then no change is needed. My whole post has been saying IF it’s broken then here is a possible fix that has minimal impact on the Artist and perk outside of that one combo.
But you can bluff them to use it to dodge for invulnerability, hence it being a counter. Also certain mindgames do trick survivors into dead harding for distance (e.g. running around the shack, they turn the corner into he door toward the window, you backtrack but they deadhard because they think they need to in order to guarantee the vault.)
But what if they use it for distance before u can catch up
Then they get away. That doesn’t change the other counters in the other situations though.
But you can’t counter dead hard for distance, so it’s uncounterable
This is broken part of Dead Hard. And this makes maps worse. Because they can run around pallets forever. And if you catch them, Dead Hard will give them chance. This is why Dead Hard needs rework, it is most broken perk. But why we are talking about Dead Hard on my topic?
Artist is issue and so strong with DMS & PR combo.