That the SBMM is based on kills and escapes is very good
hey folks,
To develop another system (like the current one) would take much more time. Now imagine if the developers calculated the MMR differently. Then there would be only farm rounds to achieve a higher MMR or ? and that would definitely be a pure disaster for Dead by Daylight.
BHVR has made the right decision here
Did BHVR make the right decision to tell us what the win condition is ? I don't think so. They should have kept it secret, because that might have ensured that players would have stayed true to their playstyle.
Should the developers release the secret number ? Definitely NO, cause of Toxic City.
That is only my opinion. What is your opinion about it ? Let´s discuss
greeting
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What part is incorrect? They wasted two years, that's a fact. It fails to account for actual skill. That's a fact. So where's the lie?
If you got 0 kills, you're not a good Killer.
Firstly, did you call my statement a theory which is not true. Because the facts speak for themselves. Second: Your statement: BHVR took 2 years for a system that could be ready in 2 minutes and third: That many good survivors have a low escaperate or good killers have a low kill rate I think is unlikely and simply untrue. Do you have statistics that prove otherwise ? I don't think so.
The old system could at least reward you for having a "good game" (according to what it considered good, which still wasn't great) even if you died.
The current system places no distinction between having a terrible game and dying at 3 gens, or having a good game and dying in endgame because your teammates didn't save you and/or you could have escaped but you died to ensure someone else could get out.
Similarly, it rewards a killer who gets 3 hooks all on one player (eg. tunneling one survivor and then never getting another hook) the same as it rewards a killer who only got 1 kill but got 8 or 9 hooks and actually played a pretty decent game.
I get that it's probably impossible to create a "perfect MMR system" for this game when you consider how many factors would have to go into it, but it shouldn't have taken this long to implement an MMR system that is this low-effort, if you can even call it an MMR system.
Not a single part of this is true, because MMR is not a reward.
We still have an actual reward system based on the exact same emblem system we've always had. Use it.
The problem isnt MMR, it's the players acting absolutely insane over MMR and treating it as a reward or a goal. You're supposed to ignore it, it will work fine if you do. It was working fine until it was datamined and everyone found out it was based on escapes.
An excellent point, and one everyone needs to remember. We can criticise the MMR system's flaws while understanding that it's not a progression system and you're not "supposed" to be climbing the ranks, necessarily.
they never said anything about killers.- or at least nothing as concrete as survivors.
Yeah, we still have the old emblem system. And that's fine.
All I'm saying is that it is not an accurate measurement of skill, whether you're meant to ignore it or not.
Firstly you call hardly call anything you said a fact. It's opinion at best.
Secondly, they did spend two years to develop this system. In no way should this garbage pile have taken two years to develop.
Third, watch any competent streamer. Otz struggles far more than he used to. He has plenty of low kill games. Obviously I can't provide stats as they don't exist. Even if they did Bhvr wouldn't share anything that conflicts with what they want.
In short, if you're happy with the system, great. I'm glad you enjoy it. The vast majority, at least on the forums haven't.
Yeah right, if I 2 hook all 4 good survivors (8 hooks total) and everyone escapes on death hook while I'm playing a low tier killer without camping, tunneling, slugging and without a slowdown build then I'm a bad killer.
And if I facecamp, tunnel, slug and 1-hook 4 bad survivors while playing top tier killers with a full slowdown build then I'm a good killer.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Hooking 2 people is not a win. It's a loss, definitively. Don't care how you try to spin it, it means you played badly and you are the reason Survivors expect easy games and the rest of us can't get a competitive match.
Learn how to read.
Okay. What did I miss? 2 hooking 4 survivors is a loss. You are bad and you promote badness.
8 hooks is more than 4 hooks. Is it that hard to understand?
No, these are facts and have nothing to do with opinion. Of course I like the system and I accept that there are players who do not like it, but it does not mean that it is the majority. You can't calculate a MMR in a game like DBD any other way.... it doesn't work.... and even if it did... there would only be farm rounds and that would be bad for the game because everyone wants high. Also, there's no point in coming to the forums over and over again and writing how stupid SBMM is because it won't change anything anyway. That's one of the reasons why I wrote, BHVR chose the right way here in my opinion. They just shouldn't have revealed what the wincondition is. I think then we wouldn't have all these discussions.
I think the Killer exists to kill Survivors. So a good killer can and should kill Survivors. No matter how.
? This system is even worse than the old one , especially for survivors.
a couple of things i will have to disagree with you on here:
To develop another system (like the current one) would take much more time
we already had a system that managed to track skill significantly better than the current MMR system did, that being the Emblem system. All they had to do was to remove Ranks as the determining matchmaking factor and replace those with an MMR system. and during the lifetime of said system i dont remember ever seeing anyone "farming" the emblem scores - obviously you would want to get good scores in them, but that never lead to farming games (at most someone hookfarming someone else, which they did try to fight with a penalty to the emblem - and had said penalty applied to BT saves as well i do think it would no longer have been an issue)
also, yes developing / changing things takes time. but that shouldnt be an argument against improving a currently problematic thing, otherwise this game would literally never change. That'd be like saying "yeah old Moris were OP, but ya know, changing those would take time, so lets just keep them the way they are" - i'd much rather they took some more time and released well functioning and thought out things than them rushing half developed things out because they had to meet a deadline.
Did BHVR make the right decision to tell us what the win condition is
actually, i dont think they ever did - or intend to.
the way we figured that out was by dataminers discovering the information in the games code and then sharing it with the community - so when BHVR came around to tell us how it worked, that was only because we had already discovered it.
also, it is possible to determine your exact MMR rating with this method - though i dont know how Easy Anti Cheat or BHVR like you doing this sort of thing, so i wouldnt recommend it.
You didn't understand anything I wrote. Of course, the emblem system summarizes the capabilities better. But that's what it's for, and everyone knows that by now.... since it was released ?? The Emblem system only records things that happen during a match, and is not meant for anything else, and never has been. It will still record stats during a match, regardless of MMR, and that's fine. Do away with ranks and replace them with an MMR system ?? That's what BHVR did, but you don't like it! Of course, you don't remember players farming on purpose before - because there was no MMR system until then! But that would change abruptly from now on and you know it. In my opinion there is no other way to calculate MMR in Dead By Daylight, I've written that several times now, and even if there was, what do you think would happen if MMR worked according to the Emblem system for example..... believe me, there would only be FarmByDaylight. "Hey, I really want a higher MMR, so why should I still bother killing survivors or playing normally? Hooks count for a lot more, don't they...? Hey, why should I bother escape? Relief actions, repairing generators, rescuing survivors, healing or stunning the killer with a palette will get me much more and let me achieve a higher MMR, right? Anyway, it just doesn't work and how you do it, you do it wrong.
Basing the system on kills just encourages killers to facecamp/tunnel as if someone was holding a gun to their head IRL and will shoot them if they don't get at least a 2K.
It does, but only because it has been revealed what the wincondition is.
I believe you. Welcome to the low mmr club^^... and does anyone care if the player is high or low mmr? I don't and that's why I don't understand why some players get upset about it. Without an active rankinglist it doesn't help anyway.
Quick correction- the system doesn't encourage, or discourage, anything at all. You aren't supposed to be trying to get max MMR points, it's supposed to function in the background.
yes sir^^ that is the reason why I do not sweat. If other players think they have to stress themselves out, that's their business.
As several other people here have pointed out, kills and escapes are not, have never been nor should be the only thing that defines someone’s MMR, the Claudette that hides all match and escapes with a key should not be rewarded more then the David that kept the killer busy for 4 gens before dying, nor should the Leatherface that camps someone to death be more rewarded then the Trapper that went out of his way to go for 12 hooks but ultimately only got 8 and no kills
this is one of the biggest reasons why the current MMR is a bad system, it is too simple and only counts the bare minimum rather then taking other aspects of the game into account
Of course, the emblem system summarizes the capabilities better
so you are agreeing with my statement that the Emblem system is doing a better job at determining someones skill than the MMR system currently does?
The Emblem system only records things that happen during a match
yes, that is indeed what it was designed to do. And based on the findings of the Emblem system the Ranking system would reward you with points - or make you lose some. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, after all even the MMR system only takes the trial you were just playing into account when determining whether you win or lose MMR points.
Do away with ranks and replace them with an MMR system? That's what BHVR did, but you don't like it
i think you completely misunderstood what i was saying there.
there is a very big difference between the Emblem system and the Rank system. The Emblem system was tracking your performance throughout the trial and then essentially give a status report to the Rank system (which is its own unique thing), which would then based on that report give / take away pips from your Rank, which would then be used to determine who you'd go up against next.
The Devs removed not just the Rank system as you claimed, they also removed the Emblem system from the overall matchmaking.
what i dont like about this is not the overall MMR system and its way of determining your opponent (well, i do dislike it, but thats not relevant for this discussion, as that would be an entirely different argument and topic), but the way the MMR system attempts to determine your skill - because it only cares for whether you escaped or not, which is a very simple, one dimensional and inaccurate view on someones actual skill level.
The way i want this to work is, to have the Emblem system determine your overall score and whether you won or lost and the MMR system then acting accordingly - by awarding you a certain amount of points / taking a certain amount of points away from your overall MMR rating, that would then be used to determine your next opponent.
Of course, they don't remember players farming on purpose before - because there was no MMR system until then! But that would change abruptly from now on and they know it
please explain this to me:
1) why would anyone want to farm for a higher MMR score? all that does is make your matches significantly sweatier and significantly less fun and you cant even see your MMR rating under normal circumstances, so unlike the old Ranks you wont even receive bragging rights. There is absolutely no benefit to reaching high MMR - mind you, Grades that give you BP rewards at the end of the month are entirely unrelated to the MMR system.
The way i see it, MMR gives you even less of an incentive to start farming to reach a high rating than the old Ranking system did - and people already didnt do that when that was a thing.
2) how exactly are you picturing people to "just farm the Emblems"? you are awarded Emblems based on your performance ingame - the better you play, the more Emblems you receive. In addition to that, the Killer Emblems and the Survivor Emblems usually stand in a direct contradiction to one another, meaning for one side to receive good Emblem scores, the other side would receive bad ones. In other words, its in the Killers interest NOT to let Survivors get good Emblems and vice versa.
so why should I still bother killing survivors or playing normally
i think this just throws a different question in the room: what is your definition of "normal" gameplay?
what, on the Survivor side, do you consider to be "normal gameplay", that isnt a mixture of: repairing generators (Lightbringer Emblem), helping your team (e.g. protection hits, healing or unhooking) (Benevolent Emblem), running away from the Killer (Evader Emblem) or trying to escape the trial alive (Unbroken Emblem)?
same for the Killer side: what do you consider to be "normal gameplay" that isnt defending generators (Gatekeeper Emblem), sacrificing Survivors (Devout Emblem), hooking and injuring Survivors (Malicious Emblem) and chasing Survivors (Chaser Emblem)?
Hooks count for a lot more, don't they...?
so you're saying not camping someone on hook until they die and instead going after someone else is a bad or even abnormal thing? Also, Hooks and Sacrifices are counted in two different Emblems - the Devout Emblem counting the amount of sacrificed Survivors and the Malicious Emblem counting the amount of hooking actions throughout the trial. So there is a clear incentive for the Killer to try and sacrifice as many Survivors as they can - in fact, a single sacrifice, in terms of Emblem score, is worth more than a single (or even a couple of) hooks.
Hey, why should I bother running?
i dont even understand where you're comming from with this. there is no Emblem that rewards you for not running away from the Killer - in fact, the Evader Emblem rewards you for the exact opposite, that being a long chase.
relief actions, repairing generators, rescuing survivors, healing or stunning the killer with a palette will get me much more and let me achieve a higher MMR, right?
wrong. repairing generators and helping your team are two entirely seperate Emblems for you to score in, so all not running away from the Killer does here is to ensure you wont be getting any significant points in one Emblem, while only being able to progress the other Emblems as much as if you just did run - or even less, as there is not even a chance for the Killer to drop the chase with you, allowing you to further work on those two Emblems.
i very much doubt people would mix up their gameplay in any significant way if they made the Emblem system the determining factor to whether you won or lost a game in DbD again. the only people this would screw over are those that instantly facecamp someone on hook with 3 passive game delay perks and then insta downing someone else with NOED and repeating the same thing - to which i say: good. screw these people and get them out of my games.
of course some minor tweaks would need to be made in order for those two systems to coexist, but those would be things the Emblem system should have had even before MMR was a thing - for example making it impossible for the MMR system to count a game as a loss if the Survivor escaped / the Killer reached a certain kill threshold - so essentially the exact same thing the MMR system currently does, but significantly less extreme by not awarding an auto win / loss for achieving them / not achieving them & instead taking some more things you did throughout the trial into account to determine whether you won or not.
all a merge of those two systems would realistically do is, that it would help those players that played well but died right in the end / had a majority of people escape (but achieving a lot of hooks) not count the game as a loss, while making sure that those who played bad and still got out / 2 or more kills (but barely hooked anyone) would not have it counted as a win to them either.
Yeah, but that doesn't help me when I'm the one getting camped and tunneled by someone that believes that MMR is life.
I feel that, but it's also pretty ineffective to blame the MMR system for that. People act under false delusions all the time, the solution is to correct them, not to make their delusions more reflected in reality.
This 💯
"So you agree with my statement that the emblem system determines a person's abilities better than the MMR system currently does?"
yes of course, but that was never in discussion.
"The developers not only removed the rank system as you claimed, but they also removed the emblem system from all matchmaking."
The emblem system was never part of the matchmaking!
"The way i want this to work is, to have the Emblem system determine your overall score and whether you won or lost and the MMR system then acting accordingly - by awarding you a certain amount of points / taking a certain amount of points away from your overall MMR rating, that would then be used to determine your next opponent."
When this happens, only farming will continue because everyone wants a high MMR.
"why would anyone want to farm for a higher MMR score? all that does is make your matches significantly sweatier and significantly less fun and you cant even see your MMR rating under normal circumstances, so unlike the old Ranks you wont even receive bragging rights. There is absolutely no benefit to reaching high MMR - mind you, Grades that give you BP rewards at the end of the month are entirely unrelated to the MMR system."
I wonder why so many players are upset about this. Or put another way, why would anyone want to kill or flee for a higher MMR? It just makes the matches more sweaty and less fun. That's why I wrote that without an active leaderboard, it doesn't matter how high an MMR is. So it is the same. Besides: the word "skill" is hidden in the name SBMM, and some players don't associate kills or escapes with the word skill, because for them it has nothing to do with skill.
"how exactly are you picturing people to "just farm the Emblems"? you are awarded Emblems based on your performance ingame - the better you play, the more Emblems you receive. In addition to that, the Killer Emblems and the Survivor Emblems usually stand in a direct contradiction to one another, meaning for one side to receive good Emblem scores, the other side would receive bad ones. In other words, its in the Killers interest NOT to let Survivors get good Emblems and vice versa."
That's exactly where the problem is. In such a case, it would not be in the interest of the killer or the survivor not to get good emblems. Because it may not matter. If both parties farm, they will be rewarded accordingly. No matter if someone ends up or dies.
i dont even understand where you're comming from with this. there is no Emblem that rewards you for not running away from the Killer - in fact, the Evader Emblem rewards you for the exact opposite, that being a long chase.
This is a lie and is not true. The Evader Emblem also grants you points for staying within the Terror Radius without being chased! 1 point per second.
"wrong. repairing generators and helping your team are two entirely seperate Emblems for you to score in, so all not running away from the Killer does here is to ensure you wont be getting any significant points in one Emblem, while only being able to progress the other Emblems as much as if you just did run - or even less, as there is not even a chance for the Killer to drop the chase with you, allowing you to further work on those two Emblems."
As I have already written. You have not understood me. I am not stupid and I know what the emblems can do. But I am not concerned with each individual emblem. It's about farming in general. No matter what Emblem action it is.
"i very much doubt people would mix up their gameplay in any significant way if they made the Emblem system the determining factor to whether you won or lost a game in DbD again. the only people this would screw over are those that instantly facecamp someone on hook with 3 passive game delay perks and then insta downing someone else with NOED and repeating the same thing - to which i say: good. screw these people and get them out of my games."
I see it differently and guarantee you. We have so many players who are horny High MMR that they would only farm. "I want to be the best" if you know what I mean.
In principle, of course, you are right. But if the developers would make other calculations for the transmission of MMR, then people would just farm and that would also be bad.
They didn't implement MMR in the first time because they said it was based on kills /deaths and that wasn't a good way to measure skill level. Now they implemented it based on kill/deaths because potato.
I wouldn't say the right decision... The right decision was to leave mmr completely out of a 1 sided game not make it worse for the weaker side. I've seen games die because of MMR and this game is definitely on that path. MMR in DBD would basically mean you would have to remake the entire game because you would have to rebalance maps, survivors, killers, perks, etc. You can't just nerf the top perks and be like "Alright the game is balanced now" that is FAR from balancing this specific game.
I'm okay with killer MMR revolving around kills. It's not perfect, but it's close enough.
Survivor needs to be more nuanced. It should factor in, at the very least, how many gens were completed before you died.
Yes, I remember that. Someone from the developers posted it here in the official forum. But later it was edited. I strongly assume that another calculation is not possible in a game like DBD. (speculation)
Yes, it was.
It means it isn't SBMM since it isn't based on skill because escaping or not doesn't translate to being skilled. Same as getting a 4k or not.