There. I Said It.

StarLost · October 6, 2021

What likely controversial but true things have you always wanted to say?

For me:

Something that was overpowered a year ago does not justify something else being overpowered now.
The devs really need to come out and tell us what constitutes a win state for a killer.
The Spirit nerf was probably needed. Wraith, Ghostface and Deathslinger's nerfs definitely weren't.
Freddy needs better addons.
Nemesis needs a third zombie.
MMR needs to be inflated slightly for every player playing together in an SWF.
It's way, way too easy to game the MMR system and stomp newbies.

dspaceman20 · October 6, 2021

I don't know if these are controversial but

Using meta perks doesn't mean you have no skill
There are no toxic perks and a person using a certain perk, item or build doesn't make them toxic.
Using perks isn't abusing them. This is another stupid word the people throw around to things they don't like.
Survivors body blocking is not toxic (I have heard killers say a lot unfortunately). If you argue this then I can only assume you think being a good teammate is toxic.
If you call out the opposing side, be it killer or survivor, for using meta perks but don't acknowledge your side also using meta perks your a hypocrite.
The communication aspect of swf isn't the problem. All the communication I the world won't help the survivors cannot by enough time to do gens.
Even though camping and tunneling is fine they can be used to be toxic. It's not the strategies that's toxic its the intention behind the strategies that toxic. Tunneling a person to help you win the game is fine but tunneling a person because you don't like the character they are playing as or perks they are using is toxic.

Thats all for now.

NoOneKnowsNova · October 6, 2021

I really like this thread, so here are some of mine for killer.

Unless you're very high up the ladder of MMR or survivors bring very specific builds, the game is for the most part balanced.
A killer being fun to play and fun to play against is more important than strength but they should have an equal balance. A great example of this is Blight who is all three.
As a Billy main, his rework didn't gut him and he is still an A tier killer.
Most SWF aren't OP, and are just regular players who are trying to have fun with their friends.
Swamp is worse than Haddonfield.
Noed needs a nerf, its unrealistic to expect survivors to do all 5 totems if they're solo or if they're playing on an inside map.

With that, here are some of mine for survivor.

Exhaustion perks shouldn't exist (specifically SB and DH) and if you're good at the game you won't need to use them. Additionally it's more fun not to use them.
Flashlights are the worst item and unless you're doing challenges you shouldn't really bring them.
Tbagging is fine IF it's to try and get the killers attention off another survivor instead.
Spinechill is heavily overrated.
Self Care isnt a bad perk if used right.

And finally, some general ones.

Most sets are completely fine. If you think otherwise, don't buy them. Some however should have the head/weapon available separately.
Most reworked maps are completely fine, with the worst two realms being Haddonfield and Swamp, two that havent been reworked.
Hawkins Lab going is a good thing as that map was extremely unfun to play on.

Probably missed a few but that's all of mine.

StarLost · October 6, 2021

@dspaceman20 said:
I don't know if these are controversial but
Using meta perks doesn't mean you have no skill
There are no toxic perks and a person using a certain perk, item or build doesn't make them toxic.
Using perks isn't abusing them. This is another stupid word the people throw around to things they don't like.
Survivors body blocking is not toxic (I have heard killers say a lot unfortunately). If you argue this then I can only assume you think being a good teammate is toxic.
If you call out the opposing side, be it killer or survivor, for using meta perks but don't acknowledge your side also using meta perks your a hypocrite.
The communication aspect of swf isn't the problem. All the communication I the world won't help the survivors cannot by enough time to do gens.
Even though camping and tunneling is fine they can be used to be toxic. It's not the strategies that's toxic its the intention behind the strategies that toxic. Tunneling a person to help you win the game is fine but tunneling a person because you don't like the character they are playing as or perks they are using is toxic.
Thats all for now.

I'd disagree on two points.

The communication of SWF is absolutely the problem. It allows for a degree of coordination and information sharing that the game simply doesn't feel balanced around.
Tunneling because you don't 'like' someone's perks (which also frequently plays into which character they are playing) is absolutely not toxic, because getting them out of the game as fast as possible should be a priority. It also places a lot of pressure on a coordinated group, as they have to run interference. The only character I'll straight up tunnel, however, is a 'Blendette', as these players always seem to be incredibly BM and abusive, or someone that brings a key.

As to the other responder (no idea why, won't let me quote you).

Interesting.

Why would you say Swamp is worse than Haddonfield? The only time I don't like Swamp is when I'm running a lot of hexes.

Flashlights are...situational. They are incredible versus a Hag or Wraith.

Bumbus · October 6, 2021

"Tbagging is fine IF it's to try and get the killers attention off another survivor instead."

No, it is not. If you play a chess game and show your opponent middle finger to make him angry and pay less attention to the game you are still a douchebag. Being a douchebag on purpose doesn't make you less douchebag.

Don't excuse BM in the game.

humanbeing1704 · October 6, 2021

@NoOneKnowsNova said:
I really like this thread, so here are some of mine for killer.
Unless you're very high up the ladder oof MMR or survivors bring very specific builds, the game is for the most part balanced.
A killer being fun to play and fun to play against is more important than strength but they should have an equal balance. A great example of this is Blight who is all three.
As a Billy main, his rework didn't gut him and he is still an A tier killer.
Most SWF aren't OP, and are just regular players who are trying to have fun with their friends.
Swamp is worse than Haddonfield.
Noed needs a nerf, its unrealistic to expect survivors to do all 5 totems if they're solo or if they're playing on an inside map.
With that, here are some of mine for survivor.
Exhaustion perks shouldn't exist (specifically SB and DH) and if you're good at the game you won't need to use them. Additionally it's more fun not to use them.
Flashlights are the worst item and unless you're doing challenges you shouldn't really bring them.
Tbagging is fine IF it's to try and get the killers attention off another survivor instead.
Spinechill is heavily overrated.
Self Care isnt a bad perk if used right.
And finally, some general ones.
Most sets are completely fine. If you think otherwise, don't buy them. Some however should have the head/weapon available separately.
Most reworked maps are completely fine, with the worst two realms being Haddonfield and Swamp, two that havent been reworked.
Hawkins Lab going is a good thing as that map was extremely unfun to play on.
Probably missed a few but that's all of mine.

Definitely agree on Hawkins

Happy it'll be perma gone

humanbeing1704 · October 6, 2021

Borrowed time is the healthiest survivor meta perk and people should stop complaining about it

StarLost · October 6, 2021

@humanbeing1704 said:
Borrowed time is the healthiest survivor meta perk and people should stop complaining about it

I like what the skill attempts to accomplish, but it's too easy to use offensively (rather than being an anti-tunneling tool like it's supposed to).

vacaman · October 6, 2021

@StarLost said:
What likely controversial but true things have you always wanted to say?
For me:
Something that was overpowered a year ago does not justify something else being overpowered now.
The devs really need to come out and tell us what constitutes a win state for a killer.
The Spirit nerf was probably needed. Wraith, Ghostface and Deathslinger's nerfs definitely weren't.
Freddy needs better addons.
Nemesis needs a third zombie.
MMR needs to be inflated slightly for every player playing together in an SWF.
It's way, way too easy to game the MMR system and stomp newbies.

The MMR part on SWF is a common practice in most competitive games, i hope they are doing the same in DBD

StarLost · October 6, 2021

@vacaman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/285705/there-i-said-it
The MMR part on SWF is a common practice in most competitive games, i hope they are doing the same in DBD

It's anecdotal, but if that's the case, then either there are a lot of SWF groups deliberately AFKing out a lot of games or something isn't working properly on some killers (Doctor, specifically - no matter how often I get pounded, I still constantly run into full SWFs way, way better than me).

DelsKibara · October 6, 2021

Oh boy, here. I have a couple of things to get off my chest:

MMR is fine. The only reason you would complain about it is if you're in the higher end of MMR, where the game's balance scales are absurdly tipped on either side often and you face some of the worst cheaters in the game. With that said...
BHVR has done absolutely nothing to cheaters in this game and it's starting to show how little they care about it. EAC is one of the, if not, the WORST anti cheat software in the market right now. The very fact it's own by Epic Games and is completely money oriented (they won't work on it unless they keep getting paid) shows that this situation isn't going to get any better.
Killer balance is in a sorry state. While it's important to make sure that Killers are balanced and fair to play against. It should not be at the expense of the Killer player who is playing the game. It should feel fluid and fun to play these killers even if they are relatively low tier. Not clunky and horrible. One of the reasons I stopped playing Twins is the 5 seconds cooldown on any pounce, even successful ones. You feel PUNISHED for using your power.
Not even MMR can help solve the biggest issue with DBD Balance. Solo Queue NEEDS some level of information that isn't tied to perks. It's completely unreasonable to ask survivors to run Kindred or Small Game for ######### that is free for SWFs to have. Give Solo Queue survivors or survivors as a whole ways to identify ######### like this.

Dino7281 · October 6, 2021

@NoOneKnowsNova said:
I really like this thread, so here are some of mine for killer.
Unless you're very high up the ladder oof MMR or survivors bring very specific builds, the game is for the most part balanced.
A killer being fun to play and fun to play against is more important than strength but they should have an equal balance. A great example of this is Blight who is all three.
As a Billy main, his rework didn't gut him and he is still an A tier killer.
Most SWF aren't OP, and are just regular players who are trying to have fun with their friends.
Swamp is worse than Haddonfield.
Noed needs a nerf, its unrealistic to expect survivors to do all 5 totems if they're solo or if they're playing on an inside map.
With that, here are some of mine for survivor.
Exhaustion perks shouldn't exist (specifically SB and DH) and if you're good at the game you won't need to use them. Additionally it's more fun not to use them.
Flashlights are the worst item and unless you're doing challenges you shouldn't really bring them.
Tbagging is fine IF it's to try and get the killers attention off another survivor instead.
Spinechill is heavily overrated.
Self Care isnt a bad perk if used right.
And finally, some general ones.
Most sets are completely fine. If you think otherwise, don't buy them. Some however should have the head/weapon available separately.
Most reworked maps are completely fine, with the worst two realms being Haddonfield and Swamp, two that havent been reworked.
Hawkins Lab going is a good thing as that map was extremely unfun to play on.
Probably missed a few but that's all of mine.

A killer being fun to play and fun to play against is more important than strength but they should have an equal balance. A great example of this is Blight who is all three.

Yeah, but they often forget about part "fun to play" ...

RenRen · October 6, 2021

You need Gen Defense Perks at High Level
SWF's are gets a huge advantage
Old Undying wasn't too strong, needed a nerf, but not as much as they have.
Pyramid Head was fine on how he was on release.
Nemesis should have been way more threatening.
Exhaustion perks should be removed.
Flashlights should have a delay between turning them on and off.
If someone has BT active they should lose killer collision.
Hexes should still have some kind of a effect when they're destroyed.
Noed should have been changed already.
Leatherface is really easy.
Freddy shouldn't have been purely nerfed. He should have received some buffs.
Lethal Pursuer should be buffed/nerfed.
Dbd isn't as casual as people like to say.

StarLost · October 6, 2021

@DelsKibara said:
Oh boy, here. I have a couple of things to get off my chest:
MMR is fine. The only reason you would complain about it is if you're in the higher end of MMR, where the game's balance scales are absurdly tipped on either side often and you face some of the worst cheaters in the game. With that said...
BHVR has done absolutely nothing to cheaters in this game and it's starting to show how little they care about it. EAC is one of the, if not, the WORST anti cheat software in the market right now. The very fact it's own by Epic Games and is completely money oriented (they won't work on it unless they keep getting paid) shows that this situation isn't going to get any better.
Killer balance is in a sorry state. While it's important to make sure that Killers are balanced and fair to play against. It should not be at the expense of the Killer player who is playing the game. It should feel fluid and fun to play these killers even if they are relatively low tier. Not clunky and horrible. One of the reasons I stopped playing Twins is the 5 seconds cooldown on any pounce, even successful ones. You feel PUNISHED for using your power.
Not even MMR can help solve the biggest issue with DBD Balance. Solo Queue NEEDS some level of information that isn't tied to perks. It's completely unreasonable to ask survivors to run Kindred or Small Game for ######### that is free for SWFs to have. Give Solo Queue survivors or survivors as a whole ways to identify ######### like this.

Eh...MMR feels really hinky on some killers (Doctor in particular) which makes me think that either it's factoring something in that it shouldn't be (like the number of shocks or something), or I'm winning the lottery in reverse.

@RenRen said:
You need Gen Defense Perks at High Level
SWF's are gets a huge advantage
Old Undying wasn't too strong, needed a nerf, but not as much as they have.
Pyramid Head was fine on how he was on release.
Nemesis should have been way more threatening.
Exhaustion perks should be removed.
Flashlights should have a delay between turning them on and off.
If someone has BT active they should lose killer collision.
Hexes should still have some kind of a effect when they're destroyed.
Noed should have been changed already.
Leatherface is really easy.
Freddy shouldn't have been purely nerfed. He should have received some buffs.
Lethal Pursuer should be buffed/nerfed.
Dbd isn't as casual as people like to say.

What frustrates me is that Undying was nerfed, rather than reworking Ruin (or better yet, looking at why regression perks are so heavily required, adjusting speeds and then rebalancing accordingly). It was a hefty defacto nerf to all hex perks.

RenRen · October 6, 2021

@DelsKibara said:
Oh boy, here. I have a couple of things to get off my chest:
MMR is fine. The only reason you would complain about it is if you're in the higher end of MMR, where the game's balance scales are absurdly tipped on either side often and you face some of the worst cheaters in the game. With that said...
BHVR has done absolutely nothing to cheaters in this game and it's starting to show how little they care about it. EAC is one of the, if not, the WORST anti cheat software in the market right now. The very fact it's own by Epic Games and is completely money oriented (they won't work on it unless they keep getting paid) shows that this situation isn't going to get any better.
Killer balance is in a sorry state. While it's important to make sure that Killers are balanced and fair to play against. It should not be at the expense of the Killer player who is playing the game. It should feel fluid and fun to play these killers even if they are relatively low tier. Not clunky and horrible. One of the reasons I stopped playing Twins is the 5 seconds cooldown on any pounce, even successful ones. You feel PUNISHED for using your power.
Not even MMR can help solve the biggest issue with DBD Balance. Solo Queue NEEDS some level of information that isn't tied to perks. It's completely unreasonable to ask survivors to run Kindred or Small Game for ######### that is free for SWFs to have. Give Solo Queue survivors or survivors as a whole ways to identify ######### like this.

MMR feels off sometimes. It might be due to queue times and amount of players though.

Yeah they need to do something about cheaters.

RenRen · October 6, 2021

@NoOneKnowsNova said:
I really like this thread, so here are some of mine for killer.
Unless you're very high up the ladder oof MMR or survivors bring very specific builds, the game is for the most part balanced.
A killer being fun to play and fun to play against is more important than strength but they should have an equal balance. A great example of this is Blight who is all three.
As a Billy main, his rework didn't gut him and he is still an A tier killer.
Most SWF aren't OP, and are just regular players who are trying to have fun with their friends.
Swamp is worse than Haddonfield.
Noed needs a nerf, its unrealistic to expect survivors to do all 5 totems if they're solo or if they're playing on an inside map.
With that, here are some of mine for survivor.
Exhaustion perks shouldn't exist (specifically SB and DH) and if you're good at the game you won't need to use them. Additionally it's more fun not to use them.
Flashlights are the worst item and unless you're doing challenges you shouldn't really bring them.
Tbagging is fine IF it's to try and get the killers attention off another survivor instead.
Spinechill is heavily overrated.
Self Care isnt a bad perk if used right.
And finally, some general ones.
Most sets are completely fine. If you think otherwise, don't buy them. Some however should have the head/weapon available separately.
Most reworked maps are completely fine, with the worst two realms being Haddonfield and Swamp, two that havent been reworked.
Hawkins Lab going is a good thing as that map was extremely unfun to play on.
Probably missed a few but that's all of mine.

Tbagging isn't fine. It's BM. Getting the killers attention by tbagging isn't the same as doing a gen in front of them. One is being rude and one is making the killer give up a gen.

StarLost · October 6, 2021

@RenRen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2545699#Comment_2545699
MMR feels off sometimes. It might be due to queue times and amount of players though.
Yeah they need to do something about cheaters.

Give it a try. Do 12 or so games as Doctor, and 12 or so games on, say, Wraith. Bring your best perks, and no addons. Try your best to win every game.

Really curious as to see if it's just me.

NoOneKnowsNova · October 6, 2021

@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2545623#Comment_2545623
A killer being fun to play and fun to play against is more important than strength but they should have an equal balance. A great example of this is Blight who is all three.
Yeah, but they often forget about part "fun to play" ...

I think its been awhile since a killer wasnt fun to play as, probably Twins imo.

Dino7281 · October 6, 2021

@NoOneKnowsNova said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2545714#Comment_2545714
I think its been awhile since a killer wasnt fun to play as, probably Twins imo.

It was about Deathslinger nerfs, too clumsy and I hate doing cheap zoning.

and I really hate Pin Head, but that is mainly because I really don't like RNG killers in general.

Haddix · October 6, 2021

Trickster is better than Huntress
AND Trick Blades are his best addon.
Blight's ORIGINAL Jflicks (the Jflicks that forced him to commit around corners) were balanced and had reasonable counterplay just as Billy flicks did. The lunge changes that followed AFTER the Jflick "fix" made him unbalanced, and now he's currently stiff as hell.
Huntress's hatchet hitboxes make her REALLY unfun to face, and she should (as a TEST) have the hitbox size decreased (in a similar way it was years ago, BUT...) and be buffed elsewhere to compensate for the change, i.e wind-up movement speed and wind-up time.
She's also overrated.
Spirit's pretty fun to play against now.
Doctor's basekit shocks suck for chases and madness tiering, as his range is VERY small and the shock delay is incredibly long, which becomes even more problematic with latency. His range and discipline addons, at least PARTLY, should be basekit - at the very least range.
Billy's chase is extremely fun and interactive, and I absolutely love facing him, BUUUUT that's because his chase s u c k s. His basekit charge time/chainsaw movement speed (or a little of both) should be faster. Lopro Chains being basekit also wouldn't be a terrible idea.
Pyramid Head's zoning is still extremely obnoxious and make him very uninteractive in a chase, but his shockwave is still pretty clunky and unreliable, which is why zoning is his main strength. He should be further punished for zoning and his shockwave itself, such as the delay for it to come out, should be slightly buffed.
Nemesis blows against good players, but he's also really unfun to face because of his charge time, how fast the tentacle comes out, and how good his zoning is. He should be forced to use his whip just as Nurse is forced to blink to remove zoning (i.e your whip automatically attacks after 0.75 seconds of holding it, giving you time to retract it before 0.75 seconds, but making you commit after), but should get the entire vaccination and contamination system reworked to make him stronger, as the contamination system makes him awful when players play well.
A lot of survivor perks are pretty fun and strong, and I won't ever understand why people constantly use full meta perks with the exception of BT and DS unless you have only a single DLC character or two.
Compound 33 for Blight (the pallet breaker) is far more busted than Alchemist's Ring.
Wraith is REALLY obnoxious and VERY boring to face, but pretty overrated.
Speaking of Wraith, All-Seeing is very easily identifiable from the very first interaction you have with him and isn't as strong as everyone says. It's a very good addon, but there are other addons that outshine it. The All-Seeing hate sounds like parroting to me as someone who has faced Wraith 794856837 times since his buffs, but I digress.
Deathslinger could have a secondary power and he'd be fine - i.e some sort of bounty hunt themed ability.

Harold_Shipman · October 6, 2021

DBD isnt meant to be balanced.

NoOneKnowsNova · October 6, 2021

@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2545767#Comment_2545767
It was about Deathslinger nerfs, too clumsy and I hate doing cheap zoning.
and I really hate Pin Head, but that is mainly because I really don't like RNG killers in general.

Haven’t tried him yet as I’m on console, but I’m not a huge fan of his nerfs.

As for Pin Head, I like him after consistently being able to find his box.

freak_115 · October 6, 2021

@StarLost said:
What likely controversial but true things have you always wanted to say?
For me:
Something that was overpowered a year ago does not justify something else being overpowered now.
The devs really need to come out and tell us what constitutes a win state for a killer.
The Spirit nerf was probably needed. Wraith, Ghostface and Deathslinger's nerfs definitely weren't.
Freddy needs better addons.
Nemesis needs a third zombie.
MMR needs to be inflated slightly for every player playing together in an SWF.
It's way, way too easy to game the MMR system and stomp newbies.

A third zombie? how about a 4th whenever it's a gigantic map?

not even to mention them zombies getting stuck for trying to jump off a wall or such

Dino7281 · October 6, 2021

@NoOneKnowsNova said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2545770#Comment_2545770
Haven’t tried him yet as I’m on console, but I’m not a huge fan of his nerfs.
As for Pin Head, I like him after consistently being able to find his box.

Lethal Pursuer?

NoOneKnowsNova · October 6, 2021

@Dino7281 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2545827#Comment_2545827
Lethal Pursuer?

Yeh, with that and a small bit of luck you can consistently find the box.

snek · October 6, 2021

@dspaceman20 said:
I don't know if these are controversial but
Using meta perks doesn't mean you have no skill
There are no toxic perks and a person using a certain perk, item or build doesn't make them toxic.
Using perks isn't abusing them. This is another stupid word the people throw around to things they don't like.
Survivors body blocking is not toxic (I have heard killers say a lot unfortunately). If you argue this then I can only assume you think being a good teammate is toxic.
If you call out the opposing side, be it killer or survivor, for using meta perks but don't acknowledge your side also using meta perks your a hypocrite.
The communication aspect of swf isn't the problem. All the communication I the world won't help the survivors cannot by enough time to do gens.
Even though camping and tunneling is fine they can be used to be toxic. It's not the strategies that's toxic its the intention behind the strategies that toxic. Tunneling a person to help you win the game is fine but tunneling a person because you don't like the character they are playing as or perks they are using is toxic.
Thats all for now.

the 5th point is invalid since one side using meta perks forces the other side to use them too to level the playfield

JPLongstreet · October 6, 2021

@freak_115 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/285705/there-i-said-it
A third zombie? how about a 4th whenever it's a gigantic map?
not even to mention them zombies getting stuck for trying to jump off a wall or such

During Nemmy's development they tried running a third zom zom with an add-on, but it tanked game performance so badly they scrapped the idea and changed the add-on.

I would imagine that they test internally on badass PC's too, so imagine trying to run extra zoms on the consoles and low- to mid-grade PC's. Maybe in DBD2...

Yords · October 6, 2021

Springtrap should never become a killer in dbd

Sorry not sorry

DelsKibara · October 6, 2021

@Yords said:
Springtrap should never become a killer in dbd
Sorry not sorry

How is that even controversial when it's just true?

There. I Said It.

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