Why tunnel players with a key?
This is a genuine question, cause I see people say on a regular base they'll automatically tunnel someone with a key out of the game.
And i'm sitting here wondering -why-
cause, people, you are giving the survivors an advantage:
- If they are a swf, not only have you now given them a place to store the key, you also gave them the means to navigate the other players of the swf to the key and the hatch once it spawns. which now is a gen earlier.
- even if they are not a swf you have now given them the hatch a gen early as well as a definite place to pick up the key.
It'd be better, tactically, to play without any tunneling and corral the survivors away from the hatch.
Comments
Ive started bringing green keys and camaraderie to matches for this very reason lol
To the part about trusting in skill, there are games where even otz gets rolled because he just doesnt have time to 3 hook everyone despite him playing perfectly. So i dont think telling people its a skill issue is the way to go, cause otz is pretty skilled at the game.
If you swap to a key at the last moment, you don't have any moral high ground to contest being face camped and slapped until death. I think in that situation, no holds are barred.
Still not a fan of keys normally, even though they sometimes help you as killer as survivors start sabotaging one another.
This is some rank 20 killer games logic, there is a big difference between a noob being obsessed with kills due to lack of game knowledge and wasting the entire match on one guy and a red rank killer swiftly making it a 3v1 ridiculously reducing the odds of the survivors winning.
The difficulty difference in a real game of a 4v1 and a 3v1 is extreme especially on a 3 gen.
But I thought this game was survivor sided? All I read about is 3 gens popping in the time it takes to down one person, shoot 60s chase, 7s hook, 2 minutes of chilling on the hook that's enough time to do 5 gens much less since they only will have 3 at this point they only need to do 4 to turn that key on.
survivors who last second switch to keys or even brings them into lobbies just ask to get camped and tunneled. I don't care if 3 other survivors escape, if I can get the key holder out that's one toxic survivor that doesn't escape.
Yeah you're dreaming if you think all survivors don't stop gens and come to your hook and not do the one thing they are supposed to do in such a situation, especially on the first hook where they haven't sussed you out. I don't personally do this generally and a lot don't in the name of survivor fun, but plenty do especially in red ranks because there is nothing more OP than the early 3v1.
He also has insane win streaks addonless on every killer despite those matches also including keys...everyone's gotta lose eventually.
This is where I think red rank has bloat. The survivors that deserve to be in red ranks will just sit there on gens because thats how you punish a killer tunneling/camping.
And it rarely happens, maybe there will be one guy on gens in solo que, if it's swf though which is where I generally see most the keys you have no need to leave the proximity of the hook because you're surrounded.
For me personally though I just equip Franklyn's and deal with keys that way I find it far easier and you get the added effect of wrecking everyone else's items at the same time but I don't think a lot of people read the patch notes about keys from last patch.
Yeah he does, that's a part of his skill at being a killer in the game. I'm not saying he shouldn't lose, everybody can, its just that in some situations you can't claim "lack of skill or lack of trying" is what loses you games. The comment i replied to is op claiming that you can 9-12 hook survivors if you just "trust in your skill and hone them" even though you don't always have time to 9-12 hook survivors.
You don't always have the time for this no but I have personally found it a much more effective method to deal with keys. Its even what Otz does, plays the game normally and then at the end he will slug the key carrier and eliminate them from the equation but without empowering his key.
Because that player is the KEY to all survivors free escape.
dang true
People need to stop say this guy with 2k-5k hours does it. Most people aren't going to put that much time into the game on top of that when mmr was been tested games weren't the same because they are playing equally skilled players and they weren't getting 9-12 hooks a game not even close these players can play like that and there playing potatoes compared to there skill level. Is like my green ranks playing white ranks
Its only to make sure the guy have a bad experience at least in my case. I dont care if the other 3 escape i just want to kill that one guy no matter what.
There a guy that doesnt have 5k hours doing it. but dont you think if thats the approach the guy with 5k hours has then maybe people with fewer hours should follow it?
3. Allows survivors to completely bypass their objective. While you're entirely focused on gen defence and getting hooks, the remaining survivors vanish down a hole and you can't do anything to stop it.
Well you can do one thing. Get rid of the key.
In what way does it allow them to completely bypass their object pray tell? and how many survivors are we talkin about here that jumped down a hole since you used the plural.
Survivors have to complete 5 gens. This allows them to only complete 3 or 4 (depending on whether we're talking 2 or 3 survivors)
The entire premise of the game is preventing your opponent from completing their objective.
How are you supposed to counter that, when you need to spend 100% on your time and focus on defending the objective, gens?
Imagine if the killer only had to sacrifice 3 survivors, then a button appeared that automatically sacrificed the final survivor wherever they were on the map.
There's a reason why keys are compared to Mori's. Now that a Mori doesn't bypass any hook states, they're not skipping objectives. Keys are.
Keys aren't letting them skip much though unless you enable it by tunneling, which is what the thread is asking. If you don't tunnel someone out early, then they still have to do all 5 gens.
You mean if the killer throws the game by not completing their objective of sacrificing survivors?
You know you can eliminate survivors without it being tunneling right?
Or are killers suposed to wait until all gens are repaired before killing anyone? Which survivor rule is that again?
I'm not really sure why you're fighting this so hard, you're not going to convince anyone.
I'm not say its not possible the problem is that within the last 10 rank you can have people with 50hr or 5k and I swear always get them super sweats. I know this probably isnt ture it just feels that way. I'm green ranks killer and I feel like thats where my skill level is but I am constantly getting swf with 3 players been high purple and red meaning 3 out of the 4 are way out of my skill level. These games aren't fun for me but seem to be the majority of the matches I get what am I supposed to do in that situation? Don't say get gud because thats what I'm trying but if I'm getting rolled by players I shouldn't be playing and not having fun making me not want to play killer
I mean then what's the point of the forum if not to discuss these things. The OP is stating the objectively better way to approach a game as a killer when you see a key if trying to win, and asking why the majority of the killer community on these forums resorts to tunneling them. Some people say they just want to watch the key carrier burn, cool if that's your reason. I'm trying to help the rest of the people that think its the most effective way to win a key game see why its not.
And objectively the most effective way to win a match is to make it a 3v1 as quickly as possible, so removing keys in such a cruel manner is in the killers interests.
I'm a killer main bud lol don't try to survivor rulebook me lol. Play the game normally into the endgame, down the key carrier, leave them down, then hook the rest and the survivors panic and try to pick the ley guy up and throw the game themselves.
True without a key in the game making it a 3v1 with 2 gens left is a valid if not scummy way to play. But this must be adapted with a key in play because playing this way is precisely what empowers the key.
You have not played killer much have you?
The killer sets the tone of the trial. If the killer decides apply all pressure on the key bearer, it's a very interesting dynamic. I've been that killer and I've been a survivor where someone else brought a key. It's thrilling if you understand the nuanced play being engaged.
It's alot more interesting than Don't Touch My Basement Chest but it's less appealing to gen rushers who believe victory can only be acquired by escaping the trial ASAP.
1. Irrelevant to a key focused killer.
2. Also irrelevant to a key focused killer.
A killer may not be committed to interacting with every survivor if there is a key in play. That means most of the fun is absent for those survivors who don't fall in line with the tone of the given trial. I guarantee you, if that key bearer is killed, and the killer catches you holding that key, you have now become the target at play.
It's really not a bad thing or un-fun by any means...unless you only care about rushing g gens.
Why would the killer keep chasing you after making you drop the key?
nothing ever said they made me drop it? I believe this in response to someone saying with this mentality people will bring a key just to be a distraction.
if a survivor brings in a broken item in this game then they deserve to die for it.
Saying a Key requires a certain number of gens to be done is like saying that pre-nerf Ebony Mori required a certain number of hooks to be performed. It is a disingenuous argument either way.
"It'd be better, tactically, to play without any tunneling and corral the survivors away from the hatch."
easier said than done because survivors know the killer can do absolutely NOTHING when chasing a survivor heading towards a hatch with a key. Because opening the hatch is INSTANT with a key and doesn't require an animation leaving literally 0 counterplay for the killer.
keys are broken and so is hatch they both ######### need a rework because I'm sick of both of them
oh no they have to find the hatch?
Who will find the hatch first?
4 survivors with 360 degree third person cameras coordinated by comms
VS.
1 killer with a locked FOV in first person
also 3 gens can get done in about 2 minutes the amount of gens being a requirement is nothing.
for a 4 man escape all 5 gens have to be done though? the only thins they don't need to do then is open the gate. Moris cut the work a killer had to do by a third and was a easy tunnel the first person hooked solution. They weren't on the same plane of existence.
Good thing it takes more than 3 gens?
and?
They still are skipping objectives to win the game.
Moris can't even do that anymore.
I always wondered these points as well. By tunneling someone out of a match you make the requirements for hatch spawn earlier. This is of course if you find the key bearer immediately.
From my experiences I notice that solo queue key players hide and adopt a 100% stealth play style so that they can escape through hatch asap when it spawns after last gen or when enough players die.
In SWFs things are different. They usually stash the key somewhere so it can't have charges knocked off through Franklin's Demise and they tend to have a map runner and hatch offering as well.
Which makes it all so difficult. Franklin's is not a guaranteed counter to the key. Tunneling isn't even a counter. This is why keys need to be reworked. I just want them to be usable as aura reading items and NOT cause grief in killers matches. I actively avoid matches where a survivor has a key when I'm playing killer or survivor. I just would rather not play a match with keys in play until they are addressed.
20s? probably takes that long to find the hatch at least anyway. Mori still saves you time unless you're right under the hook. They weren't on the same plane of existence for power. I would hear an argument about maybe maps not tracking the hatch unless its the pink map or something. But comparing them is non-sensical. 4 man escape with a key is also extremely rare to pull off where a if you got less than a 3k with a mori then you probably had less than 20hrs in the game.
Moris save me 20 seconds?
9 times out of 10 it's faster hooking the survivor than watching them get stabbed through mori.
Moris are so useless now half the time I forget I even have moris activated and accidentally pick them up anyways by habit.
keys are OP moris are not.
The key saves 20s in a 4man escape scenario is what I was saying. He was talking about what mori's couldn't do anymore as if previously Mori's and keys were equals. This conversation isn't really a back and forth currently I'm providing evidence to why keys aren't an enormous menace in their current state and all I'm getting back is they let people out early and are OP. The point of the thread is to point out that tunneling the key carrier is precisely how 3+man escapes happen because it spawns the hatch sooner vs playing it more calculated and knowing when to slug the key carrier and hook his team. So if you can address this without just saying keys OP please do i would love to have an actual debate.
I mean they want to leave early so.
The point of the thread is to point out that tunneling the key carrier is precisely how 3+man escapes happens.
it seems more like you have a veiw and you want everyone else to see said veiw or they are wrong. That isn't a discussion
What about when killers bring broken add-on(s)?
I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here as I want keys to be reworked and dampened in power as much as everyone else but it feels like there's a double standard where survivors are are given more heat for bringing certain items / add-ons and this doesn't just apply to keys to some killers but tool boxes and first aid kits.
Both sides can and will bring the strongest items, add-ons, offerings and perks if they want to win badly enough.
I'm hoping they nerf keys in a way like they did moris where they can't be used to end matches so prematurely but can instead be utilized as unique aura reading items without making killers and survivors alike sweat over their matches.
I'm sure you would like people to agree with you as ell which is why I put out points in my favor not just saying key good it has counterplay and leaving it at that.
But people have giving you multiple reasons and your like no thats no enough. Some people want to just bm because they don't like key,others feel like they are op and have gave reasons why they feel this way. No moris and keys are made to speed up the game for who ever use them. But now an ebony mori actually loses you time almost as the animations take a go second. And a survivor with perks can wiggle off in about 16 secs so is it really saving time?
Because the big reason I keep seeing is because "it lets the survivors out without doing objectives" which is only a true statement if you loop back to the original statement which is knocking someone out early isn't the way to play against them.
I think a thing on keys could be they have to be equipped before the 45s mark, then the killer can adjust perks/prepare accordingly. Seems fair.
Maybe I have blood warden and a key has the potential to counter it so he needs to die to counter that potential