Arguments against giving Killers the same hook UI as Survivor?
I made the suggestion here:
@madminer95 said:
Killers should have the same separated per Survivor hook UI widget as Survivors,
The dev's comment of "the concern we have is this would encourage tunneling a bit too much" is completely illogical considering if a killer is going to tunnel they'll still do exactly what they do now and go back to the hook as soon as the survivor is unhooked and only chase them with no need for the counter.
And for those who's definition of tunneling is off:
Being solely focused off of hook is tunneling.
The killer hooking you, then hooking someone else, then choosing to chase you over someone that hasn't been hooked isn't tunneling, its just good prioritization, which unlike tunneling is perfectly reasonable and shouldn't be frowned upon.
The survivors hook widget lets them more easily prioritize who to give protection hits to, when to exit the trial to avoid blood warden triggered by someone on death hook, etc etc.
In balance the same information should be given to the Killer so they can prioritize.
But I've yet to hear a good reason against providing Killers the same hook information as Survivors.
for the sake of preventing repeat responses please fully read the suggestion post and i'll put points and counterpoints I've seen so far below.
Killers would use the information to tunnel.
A Killer inclined to tunnel is already told the Survivor they are hooking is dead on they're next hook by them beginning to struggle and the "entity summoned" score event.
Even if it wouldn't encourage tunneling it would encourage better target prioritization.
Giving Survivors the hook state information allows them to effectively prioritize preventing the killer getting kills by body blocking and not wasting time hanging around for a save if the person being hooked is on death hook.
If memory of hook states is going to be lorded as part of a killer's general skill ceiling why shouldn't that also apply to survivors?
The hook counter was only made to bring solo Survivor communication more in line with SWF.
It's generally accepted that SWF communication imbalances the game. As quality of life adjustments are made to improve solo Survivor communication, logical corresponding counterbalances need to be made for killers to prevent killers experience being made miserable, further increasing Survivor queue times as less killers play.
X community collected statistics show killers get 4K's more often than not so should be nerfed
While i wouldn't trust stats from small sample sizes since even the Dev's stats often are meaningless like the ones that showed nurse was the worst killer in the game with pig being fourth best.
This is a horror franchise 1v4 game, The killers are supposed to feel powerful and even if they're power needs toning down over all this particular feature is not the place to be doing that.
Comments
Since features to bring solo play up to SWF level could take months or years to implement its unreasonable to take the mindset of adding those features piece by piece and then re-balancing for killers after,
logical corresponding counterbalances need to be made for killers at the same time, and for this feature what makes most sense is to give killers the same UI
Why does this affect a Killers gameplay? I’m confused.
It's more so a nice quality of life feature only given to survivors and the reason BHVR said they didn't give it to killers was because it would encourage tunnel. From what I can tell the majority holds the opinion it would do the opposite.
Hook counter or not if I want a survivor dead I don't care about the UI I'll remember and tunnel who ever I want.
I stand by thinking no one should have this information. It isnt a skill ceiling thing, its remembering at the very most 8 pieces of information. I always felt that if I forgot what state someone was on that it was my fault. Im kinda okay with survs having it because it is sometimes harder for them to remember this information given they werent actively a part of it happening and could have been focused on something else, but it still seems kinda unnecessary
As someone who doesn't like to tunnel if I can help it. Having survivor hook states displayed would allow me to avoid tunnelling.
Instead, I often inadvertently tunnel, especially if there's multiple of the same character, and then get accused of tunnelling...
I think it's much easier to remember one survivor and tunnel that one anyway, regardless of hookstate information, than it is to remember how many hooks all four survivors have, so that you can get an optimal number of hooks. So tunnellers gonna tunnel anyway but non-tunnellers have a much harder time avoiding it.
1) It is very easy to miss information about hook state while playing killer. There's a lot to focus on and I'm sure most people aren't focusing closely on that. Plus, if you're going to argue that things like "Entity Summoned" BPs are enough for killers to track hook states, why are you also complaining about the HUD not doing it for them? At least killers chase and hook every single survivor that ends up on a hook. Survivors, especially when solo, would have to get the information entirely from the HUD. It's doable, but it's certainly harder to keep straight.
I haven't said that things like "Entity Summoned" BPs are enough for killers to track hook states, I've said that someone who is inclined to tunnel already has that information to easily keep track of a single survivors hook status.
And yes Killers do have a lot to focus on, more so than Survivors, so if its a matter of skill that Killers need to keep track why give it for free to Survivors?
2) Tunneling is frustrating and unfun for survivors, so it is something the game tries to discourage. That's one reason why perks like BT and DS are so strong. Since survivors have every incentive to stop tunneling, because it keeps the whole team alive longer, providing them this hook state information allows them to proactively work to avoid it, which in turn results in better gameplay. Killers have the opposite incentive, though; if you kill one survivor early it's a massive advantage for the killer. So, providing them this same information just increases the likelihood of an average killer saying "oh damn that Dwight's on death hook, he's dead next time I see him". That can certainly still happen if the killer is paying attention, but not having that information on the HUD will also clearly discourage it. Meanwhile, the overall hook counter is useful for encouraging hooking survivors (as opposed to slugging), so it also manages to push killers towards more engaging gameplay.
I've already explained plenty of times how the separated hook counter wouldn't encourage specifically tunneling (and i gave a comprehensive definition for tunneling in the suggestion post), what it would encourage is good prioritization, which unlike tunneling is perfectly reasonable and shouldn't be frowned upon. like in your example its not unreasonable for the killer after chasing and hooking a meg to choose to chase the Dwight with two hook states rather than a Claudette that has hidden most of the game and has no hook states, spreading hooks too thin and not securing a kill can cost the killer the whole game.
3) SWF communication does not make the game imbalanced. It's specifically the gap between SWF and solo. If SWF couldn't gain much of an advantage from their communication, perhaps because solo already had the information that would normally be communicated, then the communication itself wouldn't be an issue. Adding hook state information to the HUD does close the gap between SWF and solo because hook state information is something that SWFs commonly share with each other. Pretty much anything that shrinks that information gap is a good thing for game balance and this is no exception.
Your of a minority that thinks that SWF communication doesn't imbalance the game. a vaguely competent SWF can use they're communication to exponentially increase the difficultly of the game for the Killer and for that reason when bringing solo play up to SWF level, logical corresponding counterbalances need to be made for killers at the same time, and for this feature what makes most sense is to give killers the same UI.
Its not a massive thing and Killers can live without it but its just silly that a nice quality of life feature was given to Survivors but then purposely not given to Killers without valid reasoning.
Well I think the idea was that killers have a separate perspective from survivors, and since hooks concern the survivors more than the killer, it was just a minor QoL disadvantage.
Unless the dev's plan to overhaul many of the core game mechanics, like Gen speeds, exit gates being 99'd, etc, which they haven't made any statements suggesting so, expecting killers to 12 hook every game especially in red ranks is unreasonable.
In most well match made games the killer choosing to chase someone with no hook states over someone that's got 2 when all four survivors are alive and there's not many gen's can be the difference between 2+ kills and none, and that is they're goal after all to get as many kills as possible.
In your circumstance yes it's the smartest play but at the same time it should not be promoted to be the play to always use from the start.
It's about choices and why strats like camping and tunnelling will always have a place in the game but at the same time they put in ways to try and stop them from being overused.
Apparently it would encourage "Bad killers" to tunnel, and "good killers" are good, so it's fine for them to do mental gymnastics.
Apparently. Though a bad killer won't really need to know how many times they've hooked people, because chances are they're probably only going to go after the same 1-2 people, so that entire ######### argument is irrelevant and it should be given to killers, too.
Well its obvious because killers have the brain power to count and survivor can't
( bring the salt)
"hooks concern the survivors more than the killer"?
hooks is literally how you win the game as killer...
I wish the killer had it, but at least the killer's hook counter can give you a tiny bit of info. Like if everyone's alive and you have 4 sections missing then you know they're all on death hook, or if no one's been to struggle yet and you have 4 sections filled then you know you've hooked everyone once. It doesn't give much info for specific survivors but it can kinda help you keep track if you're not paying attention (which I often do, I like to use as little of my brain as possible)
Hooks are also how you lose the game as survivor. To the killer, as long as you get sacrifices you're done. It doesn't matter who. To survivors, who need to be more cooperative and altruistic by the very nature of there being 4 of them, it's more important to have that information to juggle who should take on the killer.
"hooks concern the survivors more than the killer"
that statement is still wrong
Not necessarily. People care more about not losing than necessarily winning, and hooks are the mechanisms by which survivors lose. Killers win via the hooks, but as stated before, it's more important not to lose than it is to win, especially in a community as toxic as this.
no. you're reaching, and you know it.
I'm sure to take this from the guy who hasn't even made a single cogent argument this entire conversation.
The simple fact is that a survivor-esque hook counter isn't necessary for killers. If you're good enough to need a hook counter, you're going to already be able to tabulate hooks , and you just need the net sum as a nice little helper. If you're not good enough and you need the hook counter, the game is essentially just giving you directions on who to tunnel.
no no no. don't move the goal post.
"hooks concern the survivors more than the killer"
this is incorrect. that's it.
hooks to a killer are just as important as they are to a survivor.
Well as I said multiple times, in case you happen to be blind, the loss of dying is much more important to the survivor team, especially when they can be removed in parts (removing individual sections lets you snowball much better than by having to chip away at the whole team until collapses at once).
And I'm not moving the goal post as much as you are trying to narrow the field. There are always multiple reasons for any given goal.
I'm glad this discussion is still on. There is no reason the killer shouldn't be able to see individual hook counters if survivors can.
I know you wanna pretend that not losing is somehow more important than winning. but it isn't. in fact, it's the same.
you do not have an argument. just stop.
Right, and this is coming from the guy whose best argument is "you know x, y and z."
I'll be waiting for when you get a real refutation, or until the universe collapses in on itself. Whichever comes first.
"you know x, y and z"?
my argument is that hooks are just as important to killers as they are to survivors... what are you smoking?
For the last 4 comments in this thread you've always given your claim and "and you know it" with some other half-baked nonsensical idea about hooks.
Anyhow, welcome to middle school English, where we learn that an argument needs to have a claim and reasoning. Take a guess on which you're missing.
The devs have said it's something then don't want because it promotes tunneling in their opinion. Besides I've never had an issue remembering who's been hooked and how many times, it's pretty easy to keep track of.
No, Generator aura's aren't shown to Survivors by default for the same reason Survivor auras aren't shown to Killers by default, because finding those things are part of they're objective and would make they're objective too easy. (and hook aura's are more hidden just to prevent visual clutter)
hook counts is information known to both sides anyway, the UI widget just means you don't have to keep a mental note of it on top of the other information you need to be thinking about.
Killers having the separated hook UI would be a good quality of life addition.
letting them avoid accidentally tunneling and ending up eating a decisive strike, prioritize who to chase later in the game and to prevent Killers wasting they're perk tokens or powers (e.g. Pig putting a reverse bear trap on a death hook Survivor)
Good for you, but for the rest of us idiots who can't remember every hook we've made in a match, we're in the dark. "What's that? I hooked everyone twice and now they're all at the gates? I must have just played bad." When really, situations like that are caused by survivors having access to individual hook counters but not the killer. Either let both sides have that information, or let neither of them.
I mean if people are struggling to count to three there really isn't much hope either way.
You're oversimplifying what are usually complex situations. You usually have hooked so many people as killer that you lose track, especially if you got hit by DS or you've had to slug, or anything more complicated than chasing someone, hooking them, rinse and repeat. But if it's as easy as counting to 3, isn't it just as easy to have the individual hook counter in the game? It's there for the survivors to see, so what's with the double standards?
Because BHVR have said no so they aren't going to put it into the game.
They've gone back on their word plenty of times, sometimes for good reason. They used to say 2-window killer shack with no entity blocker, fast vaults from any angle, slow killer vaults, and no bloodlust was balanced and took skill. Seeing as all that has been fixed, I'd say their minds are able to change on a variety of subjects, including this one.
Not too long ago, they rushed out that UI update that nobody liked, and then fixed it up because people complained. And now we're complaining about it again. See how the devs saying "no" is not the end of the argument?
I was around for all those things but they didn't promote and unhealthy playstyle for the game which is something they have always avoided. Seeing as they and other members of the community believe this will promote that I really don't think it's something that they would consider doing.
Realistically the Dev's aren't going to take away the hook information from the Survivors now they've given it, with they're goal of bring solo play up to SWF level, so if they're going to provide the information to Survivors they should be doing the same to Killers.
And i'd argue that its harder for Killers to remember this information given that they have much more information to focus on than the Survivors.
from my experience I remember who I hooked and when. When Im focusing on my objectives as a surv its easy enough to miss a hook on someone else. Idk
Agreed, I just wish the Dev's would have the insight to see it this way.
In no world do hooks concern the Survivors more than the Killer.
The Survivors objective in the trial is to repair generators and avoid being hooked so they don't die.
The Killers objective in the trial is to prevent the generators being repaired and hook survivors to kill them.
Saying giving Survivors the hook counter but not the killers is fine because its "just a minor QoL disadvantage" is like saying it'd be fine to take away the Survivors generator counter because its just a minor QoL disadvantage.
Yet i bet the community would be up in arms if that happened.
This still bugs me, too. If you're tunneling someone, you don't need a display to remind you. You just go back to the hook and chase the only person you've been hooking. If you're not tunneling, a hook counter can help you avoid railroading one person or help you tell the difference between survivors who have similar skins.
Giving the hook display to survivors encourages them to protect players who are on death hook -- that's fine, but, if you're going to do that, I think the info should be available to both sides.
please could you give an example where this even could be used "from the start"
Because it sounds like your envisioning killer's choosing to tunnel one person from the start, which as I've explained a killer so inclined is already given all the information they could possibly need to do that, the hook counter would not change anything.
what "bad habit" are you talking about here. getting kills?? winning??
When I say from the start it does not mean from the start of the match.
It means when they first pick up the game and start as new players.
The argument from some others is that it would help new players as those who know the game don't exactly need it to track who they have hooked.
Thissss.
I don't need a counter to tunnel. One hook. Two hook. Death hook free. That's what Steve gets for bringing a key.
It's only when I'm trying to 12 hook and lose track of whether someone was on that 1st or 2nd stage that gets me killing people too fast (or forgetting there was that one person I slugged earlier but didnt end up hooking).
This is ESPECIALLY TRUE if they have a ######### team who lets them fall into that 2nd hook stage without me noticing. I ain't watching that #########.
The point is you shouldn't have to do the mental gymnastics.
fingers crossed it doesn't go unnoticed.
Everyone's memory works differently and Killers have a lot of information they need to be keeping track of, much more than Survivors do,
So even If memory of hook states is going to be lorded as part of a killer's general skill ceiling why shouldn't that also apply to survivors?
I remembered without it as a survivor but I'm not a dev so I don't make those decisions.
it would encourage tunneling. for example, two people are injured and the killer shows up. hes going to look at the hook counter and go for the person that has the most hook stages or is on death hook.
That's terrible reasoning, they've changed they're mind on too many features to keep count of due to player feedback.
those things 100% did promote unhealthy playstyles for the game, they encouraged Survivors to play around killer shack or other loops with windows and just non stop god loop them safe in the knowledge the killer couldnt catch them which encouraged killers to tunnel and camp when they got the opportunity as playing normally wasn't a viable way of getting kills.