The real reason you hate Spirit
I was going to post this as a reply to another thread but realized this might actually help a lot of people understand the Spirit debate a lot better.
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If you have a problem with Spirit then you have a problem with mix-up characters in fighting games.
Fighting games like Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat follow character archetypes, which can identify the playstyle of the character.
"Instances in which a player is faced with the possibility that their opponent is going to make one of numerous potential decisions, Mix-Ups are a fundamental part of fighting games. Specific games will even feature characters that possess entire movesets that are entirely based around the utilization of mix-ups, forming the archetype of Mix-Up characters. Mix-Up characters will possess numerous moves that have a similar or even identical start up animation that are then followed up by attacks that must be blocked or dodged different ways."
Spirit is literally this type of character, the one where you have to read and predict. Now in the FGC, it is actually VERY COMMON for strong mix-up characters to get a lot of hate from the general player base.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OHMFsAXvFc&ab_channel=NickopzI don't expect you to sit through the video, so I will just summarize this as people don't like to have to change their tactics or play re-actively to their opponent such that making the wrong read will get you seriously punished.
This is basically what is going on with Spirit.
The thing is, just like Spirit, these characters have counter play. It's just that, by the very nature of what how they were designed and what they do, also by the fact it can be very frustrating to play against them due to the high punishment for mistakes and the ease of making said mistakes, makes this probably the most hated character archetypes in the FGC. Which is exactly what is going on with Spirit.
My theory is that because Spirit is the equivalent of a mix up character in a fighting game, a lot of players just don't understand what to do and/or get frustrated more easily when what they do doesn't work and they are dead for it. It actually has nothing to do with her having counter play or not, and everything to do with just what she does, period.
If you hate Spirit, that's fine. Go ahead hate her. I hate Doc for reasons I won't get into. There is no problem with that. But don't be intellectually dishonest about it and claim she has no counter play. SHE DOES.
Like mix up characters, I don't see Spirit going away anytime soon. You are just going to have to learn to accept her as part of the game. Yes, Prayer Beads were OP and she did get an update to balance her out more. Honestly the only way the devs can satisfy most of you at this point is either deleting her from the game, or giving her a Freddy makeover, and I neither expect nor want either of those, and I don't think you do either guy or gal reading this.
Be honest with yourself first and we can have an actual discussion about Spirit.
Comments
Spine chill is useful in other situations too though, it's really good against stealth killers as well as deathslinger and huntress, and even if its none of them, you atleast get the vault speed whenever you're looked at, I've never really run iron will so cant say which situations its useful in.
Have you ever played against her? Her phase sounds are muted in a chase. Thats what people mean when theres no indication.
Yes she does. She looses to those survivors who are smart enough to let the survivor rot on the hook and rush gens. I can guarantee you, a very fun experience!
Spirit requires a headset more than skill and you can do things but you are not doing much that's the problem if an oni chases me can I or can I not actually do things that help me win my chase. Killers arent supposed to win EVERY CHASE and no those are great perks but I could be using more useful one for how I play. Using perks just IN CASE is b.s.
Umm you do realize looping mindlessly results in death?
Omg I RAN SPINECHILL FOR MONTHS you guys think that im saying this to say they are bad?! I literally dont run them because it gives me benefits in chase. I dropped dead hard for that SAME reason. People need to stop responding as if I talked down on them its annoying
False, this is not the reason I hate spirit.
It's because she's a blueberry and not a strawberry, ew.
Okay now jokes aside, for me it has nothing to do with the fighting games reasoning, it's just that I feel her whole concept brings out the worst part of the game to a very big extent.
Again he got ran for most of the game by 1 person. Doesn't matter who I was he never even had a chance to chase me.
Well my bad for misunderstanding, I thought when you were saying why should you run it when theres 'more useful perks' it meant that you thought spine chill wasn't useful.
However if it counters something you find difficult to verse and you think it's a useful perk, may I ask why you don't run it?
No there is a way to escape her, just nothing is ever guaranteed. Is it this hard to understand?
I stated why... Do you not read? Spine chill makes you rely on faster vaults so you get cocky and iron will makes it easier to mindgame. I want to play without reliance on perks. Thats why. I have ran Spine chill since I first got the perk and I have like 900 hours. Trust me im an advocate of Spine chill. But I want to get better all on my own
"Thats usually 4 maybe 5 options mith multiple counters."
This is exactly what it's like with Spirit. At any given point she has 3-5 valid options to catch you. If you pick the option that counters the most of her options at once (eg. the safe option) you have a high chance to escape. But then if it's later in the game you might expect her to try a different option, in which case you take more of a risk to pick this other option that less safe but more rewarding if you pull it off.
The parallels are very clear here.
Exactly. Thank you. Every other killer can be escaped
So you just want a 100% guaranteed way to escape then.
That's not a reasonable expectation. You're just asking for the killer to get nerfed because you suck at playing against her. You have many valid options to beat her, but you don't care for any of that you just want the same 'ol looping like every other killer so you don't have to expend the energy to improve at the game.
Also you don't exactly have a guaranteed way to escape every killer, just an invariably higher chance to escape say a Wraith because the game's mechanics lend itself to favor the survivor escaping.
For real yeah the mod messaged earlier today lol.
No need to be rude mate, I was just asking a question as to the reasoning as you saying because it helps in chase doesnt give too much insight into your reasoning.
You should escape when you can outlay a killer. If a spirit sucks at looping and you are way better, then uses her power and now has ALL the power that is unfair.
What does that have to do with guessing?
Look, for the most part, every tile is set up for survivors to survive, when played correctly, killer cant get a down. Thus, he has to be unpredictable and guess what the survivor will do. Ultimately, the survivor is in total control and the killer gets lucky.
Spirit and nurse are the two killers that can flip that on its head. Killer is now in control, and survivors have to guess. Not everything has counter play in this game, killers have to deal with ds/unbreakable, dead hard for distance, god pallets, and keys. Survivors can deal with two high skill killers.
But you can outplay a Spirit. You just don't do it by looping like every other killer, just like you don't beat a mix up character by playing against them like they were a shoto.
Yeah I apologize but I'm getting so many pointless replies that basically don't add anything to what is said and having people misconstrue what I say 2 times in a row is annoying. I apologize
You have pointless arguments that doesn't actually solve this so im done talking to you because frankly we will get nowhere
Ik you are joking but be careful dont get jailed now
I'm familiar with this concept. I agree that Spirit is the closest character we have in dbd to this archetype, but I do not think she embodies it enough to be a mix-up character herself. The plethora of information she has over survivors make her less about "mix-ups" and more about pinpointing the survivor's location via sounds.
I hear her phase in chase on occasion. Usually i lose chase due to her phasing and not seeing me. but i dont worry about it i know or read what she is doing and i plan for it right. The key to spirit is WASTE her time
and what about with other killers?? Looping a killer is a lot??? baiting vaults and windows is a lot? I dont understand.. All killers are the same to me you read the killer study their style/habits and use that against them.
Nah I dislike going against her cuz I can’t use my skill I’ll pallet stun them get half way across the map but oh no in two seconds all that distance is gone well guess I should learn how to play better :/
IF A KILLER CAN NEGATE IT THAT IS UNFAIR. Only NURSE should be able to do that, instead they keep making killers doing it and are easier to play and if it keeps up survs are gonna quit. We deserve to have an equal chance to win. It is so frustrating to not be able to have a good chance at winning regardless of skill because of a killer. Just like swf is unfair too because a swf doesnt need skill to win and look how many killers complain. Swf can be dealt with like every other survivor
There is plenty of evidence to show she has counter play yet it's always dismissed for the same reasons.
"killer bad"
"survivor lucky"
The problem is your mentality thinking she has no counterplay so you shut your mind to any possibility that could be the case and thus never improve as a player.
Honestly if you want to ever get anywhere with this you need to stop being so closed minded.
Yes, let's compare a fighting game to Dead by Daylight.
What's next? Maybe write an essay on how similar Call of Duty is to Farming Simulator? Both have vehicles, right?
I don't seem to be understanding.... I don't have these issues you claim to have against her. I stream the game and i could have any one who watches come in here and tell you my escape rate against spirit is at least 8/10 matches against her. The only time i lose to a a spirit is if she tunnels/camps. I don't have to see things your way and I respect your opinions but she isn't as bad as people make her out to be. why should ONLY one killer be strong enough to deal with good survivors??? Why should all other killers have to be weak against them?? I don't understand... Its not even like EVERY killer you phase is going to be playing as spirit.
I am not. I literally WANT to see counterplay. I have gone against so many spirits. And the only ones I could run were bad killers all the good ones I couldn't. Same with my teammates. I have not met ONE person who could wreck a good spirit. So please show me the counters and show me they work. @ScottJund literally is open to go against anyone with his spirit he and me myself just want to find a counter. Everything said is not a counter. Guesses are not counters being forced to run perks is also not. And praying they are bad is not a counter. Show me a counter please. Prove what you said because there is so many vids showing that she cant be outplayed. Scottjund WRECKED zubat all in under 60 seconds and zubat is considered on the the BEST players
It's a simple comparison, stop being snarky.
I mean it seems more like comparing the psychological aspect of them in the OP, but why not compare CoD and Farming Sim, they're both the same medium and are both serialized to the point that it's practically the same game released with a new coat of paint, sports games fall into this category too, this is off topic to the thread but it is an interesting thing to discuss.
ONI and BILLY. They are balanced and can do just as good. You dont need to be uncounterable and negate everything to win. Nurse is fine because she is hard as ######### spirit is easy
Scott said it himself it IS counter play just not "fun" counter play and that's his opinion on the fun factor. Why does everyone use scott in their arguments his word is not law hes wrong about some things and doesn't dictate my thought process on this game one bit. Yes i agree on some of the stuff he says but I don't have to agree on everything he says. Again we will just have to agree to disagree it will just be sad to see her nerfed AGAIN because survivors cant seem to figure out how to play against her. I would honestly love to see her kill rate @Peanits or whoever it is that runs those numbers because i highly doubt it will be dramatic.
Every time the Killer is guessing in an attempt to outplay the survivors, the survivors are also guessing.
These are your opinions. Nurse sure has somewhat of a high skill cap but she wasn't that hard for me to pick up. once you get her down its game over theres no if ands or buts about it. And as for Billy and oni, both are susceptible to pallets and loops and if you dont give oni a hit early game his power is useless. but again these are my thoughts and opinions and you dont have to agree but i dont have to be a sheep ans fall in line with the spirit hate.
Dude Scott is smart thats why and he looks at things logically. Anyways she wasn't nerfed that bad
Loook i agree before she needed it it was nonsense with the collision and her addons at the time but.. I look at things based on my experience. Why would I argue to keep her the way she is if i felt as a survivor she was unfun to go against?? If every game i had against her nothing i did worked against her and every chase lasted 5 seconds against her i would understand but the fact of the matter is it isnt like that at all for me and i feel she is fine.
There are people who counter her literally every day. If you expect to run her for 5 gens.....thats not gonna happen. But you can easily run her for 2 or 3 if you're really on top of your #########. Either way, watch enough streams, watch enough killers playing spirit, watch enough survivors like Tru3talent running spirit, and get some cam time in and thats all you need. Its not the killers job to make you improve, you gotta take up that mantle. And if you get hit in a fighting game "even though you made the best play" <-----Thats BS dude....cause you didn't make the best play. You gotta learn that about any pvp or competative game, if you lose....YOU didn't make the best play. Learning how to lose is just as important as learning how to win. If you can't go over a replay and call out your own mistakes you'll never improve....ever. Thats just competition in general. Its the same logic behind people who literally carry their teams in games, yes even DBD there are obvious team carries.
And if you ever want to get to that level in DBD or anything else you gotta stop making excuses and pointing the finger at other people and point it inward. So you looped left when you could have looped right, <---YOU made that choice. So you decided to keep working on that gen for 1 more second when you could have ducked behind a bush before you were spotted <----YOU made that choice. You make the choice to drop pallets, you make the choice to vault, etc, at the end of the day You have control of your character and can manipulate that in a way to your advantage. The proof is there that she can be dealt with, but if thats not good enough for people to follow suit and learn those methods, then it all boils down to literally "Not wanting to get better at the game".
Whinging about it isn't gonna improve your play. I can whine all day about DS, I can whine all day about BT like some of these new killers do, but thats not gonna improve me as a killer if I don't adapt to these perks and make better decisions when I'm doin work.
Personally it's more of a frustration than a hatred of spirit for myself and that frustration usually only comes into play when the Spirit has Stridor. When I'm facing killers like Pyramid Head or Deathslinger - killers that people have also said they feel are unfair or boring, I don't have the same frustration.
The two factors that make spirit frustrating for me are:
The only issue I have with the fighting game comparison you made here, is that, again - both opponents can still see each other. In DBD you physically cannot see the spirit when she's in her power and the footstep noises would be a good way to know, if it wasn't for the loud chase music (and loud grunts of pain from Stridor lul)
I respect your viewpoint on the subject though.
So if someone is smart and looks at things logically you can't disagree with any of their opinions?
The tiles are designed to protect them, they have a 3rd person view to see what the killer is doing, and the red stain. If survivors are guessing, they need to improve, because there is no reason to guess.
Dont tell me it cant be done, because I've seen survivors that cant be mindgamed.
Uhhhh....Iron will isn't just a spirit counter....it messes up most killers who rely on sound and works especially well against Doc....
Agreed I've seen and have been outplayed as spirit on several occasions to where nmw i did the survivor was one step ahead. Of course this is possible to do and just because someone streams it and is good at the game means jack to me. I have 7k hours with almost 5 of them as killer 19k sacrifices so i wouldn't say I'm bad as spirit.
Respectful opinion, I agree for the most part however even with stridor I can escape a chase I'd say just under half the time, it definitely makes it much harder to deal with her though.
Edit: rereading my point didnt seem clear, I think spirit with stridor is a pain to deal with but even still not completely uncounterable
I agree and I dont think you should be a sheep. But my point is you dint havr to be unlikable to be viable
Understandable and the addons before were fine as far as I belueve I just want to have a fair chance without relying on perks or guessing
Dude I admit my mistakes but you know how many times I lost because she appeared where I was regardless of my perks or mindgames? Tru3 even admits when a killer isnt good and when he loops a spirit he critiques them
No im explaining why people listen. When you are BIASED you dont look at everything so you have a skewed view and thats why people cite him. Disagree all you want but if you refuse to actually look at it in the other sides way then you dont have much place to call the people who do wrong because they think about both sides