The Massive Grind
We all know Dead by Daylight is known for it's Grind. It's what keeps us playing the game, it's what keeps us going through the same loops over and over again and it's why we love to play this game getting as much points as we possibly can for every single match. It's why farm games exists and why (some) people love it when they pop up because it gives them a chance to get a ton of guaranteed bloodpoints for everyone involved in the match.
With that said, I think The Massive Grind is going to become a real issue real soon. Especially with new players who are just joining the game and started playing.
I calculated the amount of Bloodpoints needed to get every single character to Prestige 3, Level 50 with all Perks obtained. Prepare to see some huge numbers.
Since I want to talk about new players specifically, I'll focus on the one thing most new players will most likely do when they first start playing the game. Get as much teachables as they can as soon as possible. Because they want to have fun builds, they want to be able to survive against Killers or Survivors who have (arguably) better perks than them. So let's just assume this New Player wants to grind for every teachable in the game. First they would need to level every Character to Level 40 at a minimum.
It takes a minimum of around 1,250,000 Bloodpoints to get a single character to Level 40. Let's then multiply that with every character that is currently in DBD, there are currently 21 Survivors and 19 Killers. Bringing the number to a total of 40 Characters to level up to Level 40. Which brings the amount of Bloodpoints you need to 50 Million Bloodpoints. If you show this to a new player, they would find this to be incredibly daunting and tedious.
But I hear you asking, "Kibara! Not every one of those characters has perks that are worth to grab!" And you would be right. So let's just remove the characters whose entire perk deck are not in the current meta, very situational or are just not worth to grab in general (Bolded Perks are up for debate on whether or not they are worth getting):
- Ace Visconti (Up the Ante, Open Handed, Ace in the Hole)
- Quentin Smith (Wake Up!, Vigil, Pharmacy)
- Jeff Johansen (Distortion, Aftercare, Breakdown)
- Ash Williams (Mettle of Man, Buckle Up, Flip Flop)
- Steve Harrington (Babysitter, Camaraderie, Second Wind)
- Zarina Kassir (Red Herring, Off the Record, For the People!)
- The Huntress (Beast of Prey, Territorial Imperative, Hex: Huntress Lullaby)
- The Demogorgon (Surge, Mindbreaker, Cruel Limits)
- The Oni (Zanshin Tactics, Blood Echo, Nemesis)
- The Deathslinger (Gearhead, Dead Man's Switch, Hex: Retribution)
And with that, we eliminated 10 (at least in my opinion) characters that you don't need to grind for because their perks are (arguably) not worth to grind for. That still leaves us with 30 characters whose perks are definitely worth grinding for though. Not only do these 30 characters have useful perks, some of them are downright powerful that you would be nuts to not get as soon as possible.
You would be nuts to not go for Dead Hard or BBQ & Chili from the start of your DBD Career, because these perks really REALLY help out a lot in escaping, chasing, detecting or even giving you free Bloodpoints.
Now that we have that sorted out, how much BP do we have to spend now?
37,500,000.
That is STILL A LOT of Bloodpoints. And to any new players, if they saw this number they would find that incredibly discouraging. Because they see the cap is 1 Million Bloodpoints, so they would think 1 Million is a lot of Bloodpoints.
Oho, but we're not yet done with the Grind Train yet, my friends. It gets even more exponentially expensive. It's like playing an Idle Game except you need to always be active to gain cash.
Let's assume those new players become regular players, and they want to fully prestige their characters. They see those bloody outfits and they want their own characters to look like that. Well, if they want to fully Prestige their characters with level 50 on all of them, lets do the math again then, shall we?
To get a Level 1 Character to Level 50, you need roughly around 1,750,000 Bloodpoints. To get A SINGLE CHARACTER to Prestige 3-50, you need to multiply that number 4 times. Meaning the grand total amount, the MINIMUM amount you need to spend on a single character to fully max out their levels is 7,000,000 Bloodpoints.
Yikes! That's already around 1/6th of the amount of Bloodpoints required to gain every teachable that is worth it in the game.
And of course, per our formula, we need to then multiply that number by 40 (assuming they want to prestige every single character in the game to it's max level). After that, we get a grand total of 280,000,000 Bloodpoints to max out every single character is this damn game.
That is a ridiculously large amount of Bloodpoints. I've played for 1.5k Hours in this game and I've only accumulated around 100,000,000 Bloodpoints myself. But hey, you can argue that it needs to be that expensive because Prestiging a character is Optional. You don't have to do it, which is why it's so expensive, it shows you're willing to put more time into the game. And I get that, it is meant to be more of a reward system for loyal players rather than an actual grind you have to overcome.
But what if you want to experiment with Perk Builds? Something that is a part of the game, and arguably, half the fun of Dead by Daylight to some people (myself included).
You would obviously need every single perk in the game to be able to actually experiment with the perks you want to play with. And here is where the massive numbers come in.
It takes roughly around 35 Million Bloodpoints to get every single perk in the game, and that is already close to the minimum we need to get for every single TEACHABLE that is worth to grab from the various characters in DBD. Reduce the number you need for Level 50, and you still need 33,250,000 Bloodpoints. (Keep in mind, I am assuming this character is Prestige 3, which means they already need to spend 5,250,000 Bloodpoints already on a single character.)
Arguably, you can be conservative and say that since every Survivor plays the same. You only need to get it for one Survivor and you'll be able to play with every perk in the game as much as you fancy.
But what if you play Killer?
Every killer plays differently, meaning not every build will work for every single one of them. You may need to mix-and-match separate perks to see what works well for you for that particular killer. So, you might end up grinding Bloodpoints to earn every single perk in the game, for every single Killer in the game if you don't have a single main you always play as.
Meaning, once again, we take the number 38,500,000 Bloodpoints (Assuming they start from Level 1), and we multiply that by 19.... And we get...
731,500,000 Bloodpoints.
And that is the best case scenario, that is assuming the Bloodweb doesn't screw you over by eating up multiple perks at once which has happened to me loads of times when I was maxing out Spirit. That is still a ridiculously huge amount of Bloodpoints, especially for Killers.
Now, if we add up every single Survivor as well, that number skyrockets to...
1,540,000,000 Bloodpoints.
Seeing this number and doing the math makes me think that perks like BBQ and WGLF are sometimes Mandatory because of how ridiculous this grind can be.
This reminds me a lot of PAYDAY 2 prior to them adding the Crime Spree mechanic. You needed to grind hours upon upon of XP to get to Infamy-XXV and you get diminishing returns because doing the best heist in the game for XP over and over again will incur you an XP penalty. It was brutal and unforgiving.
With Crime Spree, yeah the heists became harder but the rewards became much more worth it, it became much more rewarding and the time spent to grind greatly diminished making it easier to grind for Infamy-XXV.
But DBD has nothing like that, With BBQ you'd be lucky if you got 64,000 Bloodpoints in a single match. I just cannot fathom how someone, especially DBD Content Creators, could spend that much hours, that many matches of the same game to max out every character in the game to it's fullest potential. It must be a huge feeling of relief when you finally reach there.
After doing the math, I really hope BHVR takes a look at BP gains, or at least the Bloodweb Mechanic. Because right now DBD is incredibly hostile to new players, and it's driving people away more than it encourages them to stay because of that looming grind over their heads. And I think it would be better for the game, and the playerbase as a whole, if the grind was not this huge.
That's all I have to say regarding the Grind in Dead by Daylight.
Thank you for coming to yet another one of my TED Talks, it is now 6 AM and I have not slept.
Comments
Having prestige my ghostface recently for the final time, woot tier three at last. I only got bbq on them after level 50. Heck must of spend at least half a million blood points trying to get pop on my Oni, due to bloody bad rng. Which is funny enough, another reason why only a single tier for perks might be a good idea. So you get screwed over less by rng, when trying to get the one single perk you want. That and would promote trying out and testing new things, since you could get that perk you want for that wacky build easier. That or something that boosts you chance of getting a certain perk on your next blood level , like you pick bbq as the perk you want and you have higher odds of seeing it on your next blood web, to lessen the rng.
Of course when it comes to messing around with perks. Well since all the killers are massively different from one another. Well messing around with the same perks on a say ghostface and oni, could lead to massively different results, due to their powers being massively different. What might be a fun meme build on one, could be a pure nightmare on another. That or a perk which might be good on one killer, could be bad on another. So if the grind was reduce, it could lead to maybe people trying out new killers they normally don't. Maybe mess around and experiment with them more with odd or random perks.
When the bloodrush event was going on. 1.5 blood point gain just felt right. Now maybe it's just me but it did really feel like that should be the standard for the game. Like it was the way things were meant to be. You could play casually and still earn a good number of blood points. That and survivor blood point gain was closer to feeling like you got more out of a match, rather than table scarps. Like if 1.5 blood points was the standard, it would be a good start to help ease the grind. Since well, the grind only gets worst with each new character and killer added. If someone wanted to play as that killer or survivor. While the blood point gain remains the same. So sooner or later, something got to happen.
No shes about right. The bloodweb gets bigger as you go up in level. If you buy soley cheap stuff you can roughly go from 1 to 40, if you buy the more expensive stuff its 1 to 35 (apmost all my characters it was 1-35). Going from 40 to 50 even with cheap stuff is just shy of a million. 1.7 million is probably about right
When did they confirm that they’re planning to remove perk tiers? Do you have a screenshot or a link?
Yeah I just buy the cheap stuff
I'll try to find it but it's been a minute since it was brought up. I believe it was in a dev stream or a "The King" video when he was interviewing Matthew
Edit: Yeah I think it was in a dev stream someone had asked if perk tiers would be removed due to how many perks there are in game already but it was a few months ago so it's probably not high on the priority list. If I figure out which one it is I'll start a new comment to you and link it.
I feel like I'm back in Mr. Ahmeds math lessons.... God how I disliked him
I did the maths long ago about each level and stuff and whether I do agree that this game is very grindy. I do agree that people are confusing things with maths as well
Almost 2 M blood points are required to prestige a character one time but we have 3 prestige levels. Wich is 6 M of blood points not 7 M of blood points.
Every character start with three perks at tier I wich is 3 bloodwebs that you don´t have to count.
I do agree that this game is going to become grindly problematic in he near future.
For a new player yeah, but honestly for me not at all, my grind is done and if they wanna simplify the grind (again) they should at least give something cool to me and others who did it
Thinking on it, reducing the grind could bring in more players. How many times have people stated they don't recommend the game to their friends based on the heavy grind? And if you're like me, you may feel locked out of one whole side of the game. I picked up this game as something for my husband and I to play because he's relatively new to video games in general. So of course, I'm going to focus on the side that lets us plays together -- survivor. I want to play killer, but the times I have, I'm perkless. It's only novel to play that way so many times.
By reducing the grind, folks who work on one side of the game first would be able to get to the other side quicker. Because over the last 4 months I've put in over 270+ hours. That's a lot of time to be locked out of one side because you want to be as efficient as possible with the other. And I don't even mind grind, I played Korean MMOs for years. However in those games, it's generally about equipment. You can still perform the same skills and most content as top geared players. In DBD, it's literally locking me out of killer content -- a massive half of the game. It makes me wonder if the huge grind is one reason we have less killers, and therefore longer cue times.
Now you could argue "Why don't you level killer and survivor some back to back?" But again I'd rather get survivor leveled as efficiently as possible. I want to be at my best when I play with my husband. I want to see how well I do with all the perks leveled. I want to mix and match perks at least in one half of the game. And again, I got this game to play with him, but I do play solo quite a bit. During those solo moments I could play killer, if I had any leveled.
I wouldn't want to eliminate too much of the grind either, though. I don't like DBD's mobile's system, I prefer the blood webs. It has made me play with a lot of random builds, because what I get on characters as I level them is random. Right now, I have to alternate between characters often for daily and tome challenges, or if I want to experiment. You learn a lot this way about skills and play styles. This keeps me interested.
Unfortunately, to be good at this game you also have to know how killer's work. Their powers, skills, and add ons. It's one thing to read them in the descriptions, it's another to see them in action, and still another to play them. Best I could do to learn was go outside of the game and watch others play them. It seems counterproductive as a company to not have players in your game learning the basics.
This turned into a bit of a ramble, but hopefully I brought something else to the conversation about why grind needs to be reduced. It would make the new player experience better, draw in more new players, and help over all with the health of the game.
that's why i really rarely recommend this game for my friend... because grind is pain.... they rarely have event bloodpoint... maybe one in three/ four month...
they keep says bloodpoint event destroy the game.... but, can you at least consider to newbie player people who says that? maybe not...
1.54 billion BP for all chars? That's by far way too much LOL
You currently need around 6 Mill BP to max out a character with all perks at lvl 3. Depending how much you play, you can do one character in 1 or 2 weeks.
P3 is just wasting BP for most characters. Only Claudette has a major buff from using it. Demogorgan also benefits from it a bit.
Do we know if theyre planning on doing anything about this? Have they said?
If memory serves well, they said they would NOT be removing perk tiers, as with just the generic perks and personals, there would not be enough perks to fill levels 1-50. The grind had a massive reduction, in the addition of extra perks in the bloodweb, giving two on every web past 40.
Just for reference, I maxed out all characters after 3.8k hrs and that was being very efficient with BBQ/WGLF and as many bloodhunt grindfests as possible.
Whatever happens, I hope it is good for the long term health of the game.
edit sorry, wrote teachable instead of personal!
Then that is their fault for not doing their research. I have seen survivors at red ranks with less than 100 hours played running the full meta combo and keys. It takes maybe 30-40 minutes to check on youtube how to level optimally. Another 1-2 hours on youtube to get the basic game theory down.
And that's assuming 30k per game...most survivors will get an average of maybe 20k since often games are low pointed.
It’s “their fault” for not doing adequate prep for their new video game? Most people who play games just, you know, play them. They don’t treat them like research projects and spend a few hours optimising their future path through the grind. If that’s the way you want to play then there’s nothing wrong with it but you’re in the minority.
Don't forget that survivors usually get only 20000 bloodpoints per match and not 30000
Tbh I think if player wants to unlock all teachable perks than it should be a more easier and less time consuming. Prestige should be unchanged though, it's optional honestly.
Honestly, between the BP requirements for perks, devs stinginess with blood point events, and the matchmaking, I cannot fathom that dbd is retaining more than a handful of new players that pick it up. I wouldn't be surprised if they retain next to NO new players. It's not a good place to be in. People will always get burned out, get busy, move on, and if new players aren't flowing in, that just kills off the population even faster. BHVR has really let it get out of hand.
Yeah, that is exactly what I am worried about.
Despite it's addictive nature, I've even been burnt out by DBD in the past.
So I doubt new players, unless they are really dedicated will stay to stick around and play.
Don't forget the dreaded queue times and DCs
Don't you have to lvl the characters far past lvl 50 to get all the perks ?
It is completely ridiculous. I stopped playing the game because I feel like such a tool over the grind. Can you imagine a game like overwatch being as successful if you had to grind up characters like this? It is completely ridiculous. I made a post a while back about how the philosophu of the grind ruins the in-game experience.
Their system is insanely outdated. People have admitted, me included, that they will not purchase dlc because they don't want to grind new characters.
I honestly can't believe they haven't changed it. It is terrible and so offputting.
You would like a post I made about this where I specifically addressed the devs