kit_mason
kit_mason
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Yeah, a big issue with PTBs as they run right now is that theres all eyes on the biggest changes (especially if those changes are in need of more iterating on) and it ends up being all people talk about, and it makes smaller changes fly under the radar, good or bad.
I do think it'd require changing how PTBs work a little becuase having to fully uninstall and reinstall the game to play on it would be a big pain if they were really often, but I think they should reassess that anyway.
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@QueenUni_xo10 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031187#Comment_4031187
Always with the switch solution. Every competitive game always ends with "Well if you don't like it, switch". Why should players have to switch TO HAVE FUN. I enjoy KILLER, why should I have to move over to survivor and deal with the toxic killers from bully squad matches instead of playing what I WANT TO PLAY in the game I SPENT MY OWN MONEY ON.
Like with my point on No Mither. Why should anyone have to switch the way THEY WANT TO PLAY just because the game has issues that no one wants to actually acknowledge
If you're not even going to bother to read why I said you should switch, don't bother writing out a whole response.
BHVR are ultimately informed by statistics and you are ultimately informed by experience. As a result, continuing to contribute to survivor play rates, continuing to drop kill rates, and continuing to learn what you think specifically needs to be changed to lessen the survivor experience makes discussions on this easier to use from BHVR's end because the changes are directed and to-the-point, and makes BHVR more willing to actually enact changes because the stats match the statements.
If you wanna keep playing killer, do what you want - I aint a cop. But at least read what I have to say before you write it off.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/460715/why-blight-never-get-nerfs
Hypothetical question for you.
Should the game be balanced around high level players, or average level players?
The reality is, if you balance the game around average level players, then why would you nerf blight? In the hands of the average killer player, he performs quite averagely, if anything probably underperforms
If you balance the game around high level players, then why would you ONLY be nerfing blight and also not buffing like 30+ killers or nerfing survivors?
The answer is that you have to contend with balancing around them both.
"That's impossible" yeah, close to it. That doesn't mean one type of player should be discarded when it comes to balance consderations, it just means BHVR has to continue to work through balancing a game that has millions of players with different needs and balancing points.
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Us vs them, the dead horse of all time.
Toxicity on both sides plagues this game - and plenty of this game's players have spent years fostering feelings of tribalism that only get in the way of making the game better.
Anyway, if survivor is so easy its free - swap to survivor. Drive the kill rates as low as you can and the player count disparity as high as you can and BHVR will see the need to step in. Plus, you can get some better perspective on what about Survivor needs to change that way.
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Exit Gate Stall is a huge issue with buffing Trapper this much in these ways.
I'm all for giving Trapper QoL, especially normalization of trap escape times, but auto-open traps that you cant see until youre on top of them in a time where Terminus Remember Me strats exist shouldn't be made basekit.
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If you've ever used Forced Penance, you know the game's own definitions of hit-tanking are blurry at best. Even a more restrictive system would have its flaws.
If I fire a Redeemer shot at an unhooked survivor as the unhooker heals them, did the unhooked hit tank for the unhooker? Being shot near an injured survivor counts as a protection hit, so it stands to reason that you should consider it a hit tank - but obviously that feels unfair, right? The survivor got shot whilst trying to get reset - we can presume there was no intentionality, but the game doesn't know that.
But in the opposite scenario - where you intentionally exclude it from counting, there is now a disparity in each killer's capacity to punish a baited tunnel.
I think it's generally better to let a survivor decide the gamestate is best served by intentionally baiting the killer to tunnel them. It's ultimately a factor of survivor decisionmaking and is a form of skill expression. It is, in turn, a form of skill expression for the killer to decide which survivor is the best choice moment-to-moment.
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If we can recognize that not being able to hear the skillcheck sound is so potent an ability that it has to be kept as a ramping Hex when added as a perk, we should recognize that something should be done for people who cannot hear skillcheck sounds because they cannot hear, for whatever reason.
Baffling this wasn't added earlier, 100% on board with it being added asap.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4028587#Comment_4028587
And then lose because you're lurking @ hook too long.
Camping has always been the 2k strat. Before during and after the addition of antifacecamp changed literally nothing about that. That doesn't make it fun nor does it make it a healthy addition to the game.
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There's a lot of issues with adding a ranked mode.
It'd split queues making everyone's queue times longer, it'd need to actually approximate skill which has been a huge struggle for the entire game's life cycle, it'd come with increased toxicity from not meeting expectations (running off-meta in ranked or meta in casual as one example), it'd continue to highlight that optimized survivor actually isn't that fun (slamming gens whilst one guy gets gigatunneled sucks), it'd also give this community a new stick to beat each other over the head with - people would validate their opinions with their rank, as if the new player experience and high skill experience aren't different, requiring different needs and changes as a result.
I think it could work but the amount that would have to change would probably be a really delicate balance. They'd have to keep the mode fun and fair but also not change it so much that the majority of the playerbase becomes uninterested.
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…why not just axe the anticamp measures that won't address the underlying problems with camping instead?
"we've added anticamp measures but also let every killer in the game hard camp by entirely preventing unhooks whilst they're there as long as a survivor's trying for it" is an awfully overcomplicated solution. stand at the anticamp max range → move in when a survivor shows up → they cant unhook bc of the grab so they have to leave → go back to max range.
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If you're losing games by such a wide margin that you'd need… potentially as long as 3m 40s of the game not possibly being progressed by survivors before slowdown perks to win, then none of the recent changes should have caused a huge turnover in your outcomes. Recent changes, pallet density especially, have caused the gap to widen between killers that can play fillers effectively and killers that can't, but not by quite that much.
Before people get mad, I'm not saying skill issue. In fact, I don't really believe anyone is losing by that wide a margin. What I do believe though is that this is an admittedly fairly overkill reaction to an underlying problem which is that game lengths are too variable - gens can be sped up or slowed down too effectively. To fix that, BHVR could tune up existing basekit slowdown tools a bit and nerf gen speedup - toolboxes especially.
Hell, if they really wanted to clean up game lengths they could hugely reduce the synergies of slowdown perks whilst also buffing them to function standalone - that'd also serve to inject some more variety into killers builds because its harder to benefit from quad slowdown but much much easier to benefit from single or duo slowdown. Win win.
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the opportunity to free up Haywire for a safety net Rancor in Singularity Endgame Hostage-taking builds is chilling to say the least. another buff he wont need, basically.
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Reducing the survivor's time to break free isn't a tradeoff, it's a direct buff. A survivor that has broken free from Snug's grasp is inflicted with a hinder that persists even as they're hit. You want them to break free, it makes your two-tap easier.
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@KingOfDoom55 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4026246#Comment_4026246
Even with skill, that's not enough to keep up, it's like telling a noob killer to use SM and beat a veteran lobby swf, which is impossible, it's not always about skill in this game when it comes to characters and powers they have, it's about how good/balanced they are, even if someone who's a god at being a killer, can be trashed by an average team if the killer character itself is lacking way too much that makes it impossible to play as, regardless of your skill level, if you play 10 killer matches, 5 as a the lowest picked killer and 5 as an average picked killer, you'd bc playing alot better as the average killer bc they are more balanced and not too powerful or weak, but, when using the low picked killer, you'd most definitely get 0-1 kills and struggle the entire game, bc this game isn't just about skill, it's about balancing between the ongoing roster of characters that get introduced, which leads to power creep
Anyone that has played Singularity knows that Pick Rate does not correlate with strength.
The reality is that Krasue lacked depth. You approached every chase the same, and won it the same way too. The most popular killers - Blight especially - typically highlight that killer players value killers with a high skill ceiling - they want to have a lot to learn.
She still lacks depth - you still want to win every chase the same way - but now she's worse so you have to actually be somewhat alright at pathing around bodyblocks to win, and that isn't enough to convince people to commit to her as a main.
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Kill Rate statistics are frequently misused by the community. The game would be genuinely better off if kill rate stats like that were never publicized again.
And we both know nerfing killers wont fix the queue lengths, because the novelty of two killers is the draw for 2v8. Survivor does nothing to iterate on the formula. On top of all of this, they have only buffed killers in 2v8 to my knowledge - Billy was given his instadown back, they added strong killers like Spirit, Oni and now Dracula, etc etc
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I think this is a huge improvement on the systems BHVR has presented us with.
And I think the goal being to offset (rather than outright remove) tunnelling was always the play. Great work, would love to see BHVR playtest this idea.
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Pretending the 5% haste for not tunnelling is the same as the VHS (and other asymm horror) pitfalls of making the Survivor too good at fighting back is really telling.
They shouldn't go through with the antitunnel bc it wont fix anything, not bc it'll be too good at it's job.
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The issues I think with a ranked queue are many, but I think the one people overlook that I'm going to bring up this time around is pretty simple: optimized survivor gameplay is boring.
Very few people would, in my opinion, willingly log on to play "slam gens whilst one guy gets hard tunneled out" simulator. As a result, you get a gigantic killer-survivor population disparity, worsening queue times and as a result worsening the effectiveness of the MMR bracketing this ranked queue would have.
A ranked queue is reliant on the fact that optimized gameplay for both sides is equally fun, and the reality is that it isn't.
Other competitive multiplayer titles don't have this issue because they are symmetric - both sides have access to the same tools so their optimized gameplay is the same, and available to both teams at all times. You don't need two different kinds of fun optimized gameplay, just the one. But an asymmetric game like DBD has to make two games worth of fun when optimized gameplay, and they can't.
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I just wanna laser-focus on the Nurse "nerfs" and the Blight nerfs too.
Matchbox basekit (a 110, 1-blink nurse) gets thrown around by a lot of people that do not understand how a basekitting of Matchbox would get optimized. Nurses with Matchbox would just walk you down, wait for you to be in a forced animation and then blink to get the hit. Constructing lose-lose scenarios like this is fairly bread and butter for nurse, but right now she has to blink to keep her pressure up and also often will make use of auras to make up for the ease of LOS loss. 110 nurse has no such issue because she actively gains on you even when she doesn't blink - there is next to no LOS loss, and next to no loss of pressure from waiting on your power use. As much as I'd love to say this was a nerf to Nurse, it's actually a sidegrade that mostly makes her more boring to play and to vs.
As for the Blight nerfs, I never understood the 110 blight obsession. It implies blight spends a long time not in power when in reality he has incredible power uptime (which a max of 4 rushes would not change, he gets his stacks back one at a time so one less rush to recharge means he's still able to use his full power most often), whereas most 110s have inbuilt offsets to their power usage - Spirit and Chucky have recharges, Slinger and Huntress both have to reload - which makes their 110 catchup more pronounced. But a blight literally won't notice because they're not chasing you out of power, they're chasing you with it. They're catching up with it, traversing with it, etc etc.
I agree both of these killers need changes to make the game more in line with a balanced experience, but this is not the route that will achieve that.
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@killer_hugs said:
In the game we have normal hooks and scourge hooks.
Hooking a survivor on a normal hook should always teleport survivors to a far away hook on the map and the killer is given no indication of where they went.
Hooking a survivor on a scourge hook or a basement hook doesn't teleport the survivor away.
Every map will now have scourge hooks regardless of the killer brings scourge perks or not.
Initially the map will have very few scourge hooks (if any) but as generators complete more hooks become scourge hooks.
By the end game all hooks will count as scourge hooks.
This won't mean people don't get tunneled but it will reduce the overall effectiveness of tunneling and give survivors an option to deal with it by sabotaging scourge hooks.
To me this is the perfect balance for the game. It gives survivors a "feeling" that they have control over whether or they are tunneled because teammates can sabotage. It means that survivors are frequently going to be teleported away although not always. Sometimes it's important that killers can tunnel early; just not always.
But it becomes less meaningful and powerful as the game progresses which is important for the killer to feel like they're gaining more power the longer the game goes on while also protecting survivors early in the game.
I… actually really don't mind this. It doesn't really affect Blight and Billy, and I do think Basement should also be a guaranteed exception because the lockdown killers should be rewarded for playing into their win con being basement, but it could really help with tunnelling, and then you could tune up any killers it hugely ends up impacting bc it turns out they needed the proxy into the tunnel more than everyone thought
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It doesn't really solve the problem, though. Firstly because most totems are in tiles, so you're closer than 12m when you come across them anyway. But also because the issue is that without Thrill of the Hunt, they're way too delicate, which having to search a few extra seconds to find the totem in the first place doesn't rectify.
Totems need a small guarantee of value - stack-based totems shouldn't light until they have a stack, and totems active from second one should lock until the earlygame is through, as a simple solution.
Then you can slightly tune down Thrill to ease the fact that it's currently weighing down how strong you can make totems because the difference with and without Thrill is night and day.
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Tunnelling is done because it is optimal.
Even if gens took 1000s each, killers would still tunnel because it is the fastest, easiest and most effective way to win. Arguing that killers are strongarmed into tactics that survivors find unfun is pointless because killers tunnel in matches without toolboxes. They tunneled even when killer was at its strongest in recent times, during Genkick.
I understand the issue with toolboxes. But you should fix them because they're too good at altering match durations, not because it'll supposedly reduce tunnelling. Ditto with medkits - fix them because they punish leaving survivors too heavily.
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Artist. She's the 13th strongest killer in the game by my estimations - much higher than a "Balanced" killer rating should be (you'd expect 20th or 21st in a 41-killer roster) but I do think she's basically perfect since release and doesn't need any changes.
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@Royval said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4018374#Comment_4018374
comments like this are interesting because how does Blizzard do it on Overwatch. You say 1 thing there and you get a warning very quickly.
They largely don't. It's been an open secret that they go off volume of reports for ages, not quality or content of reports.
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What I find interesting is the insistence that if antitunnel measures were added, there'd be a huge uptick in sweat overall. But these last few weeks the game has felt sweatier than ever, and basically every killer used the OTR gutting as an excuse to tunnel, which then made survivors sweat more to outpace the tunneling, which made killers- you get the idea.
It's a vicious cycle. And I'm not sure I can be asked to continue to play "sweatier side turns less sweaty side into punching bag" simulator.
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i do think they need evening out on a map by map basis, and some attention needs to be made for their light-scattering effect too
compare that side corridor on Badham 1 downstairs main to the rest of downstairs main - it turns one of the light sources into a literal wall of blinding light. and then you have entire maps where the fog is so thin it doesnt do anything.
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Agreed. I get they can take a little artistic license to make the skin translate better into dbd but this one feels like the person that made the 3d model never saw the winning contest entry, they only had it described to them in vague terms.
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@aNAAA said:
And putting Decisive Strike at 1min30 is, I suppose, absolute cheating in your opinion?
We both know my issue isn't with any one individual change.
Decisive is the least of my worries, really. I rarely have it affect my games at all.
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@aNAAA said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4009922#Comment_4009922
Your reasoning isn’t entirely wrong, but I find it quite dull. It often leads to the same outcome, and overall survivors feel really weak. Looping the killer has become much less interesting and fun than it used to be :/
Your suggestion would be to make looping such an outright punish that killers avoid it entirely. I'm not sure how that achieves your stated goal.
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Setting your usage of generative AI aside, I'm not sure how survivors would expect to win games if we hugely up gen times and add even more macro loss states whilst removing a lot of chase-focused win conditions.
Survivor players largely already don't care to understand what gens are priority, and by adding an activation condition they're more likely to commit to a bad gen to work than set up good pressure around multiple key gens simultaneously.
Killer players are also disincentivised to chase if they're not going to be given any sort of win expectation. Vaulting under breakable doors opens genuine infinites - right side downstairs DDS main door immediately comes to mind and upping survivor movement speed fundamentally breaks every single tile in the game as survivors are in a far safer position than they were.
As a result, Killers will just play territorially. 3 gen holding is easier when the survivors can't even work the gens in the first place so playing for 1 hour lockout becomes optimal, as gens take longer and chases aren't worth it.
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@Throw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/457623/can-bhvr-explain-how-to-beat-krasue
I can't see anything else other then bodyblocking against head form
Mm, I've been utilizing bodyblocks as much as I can but Queen's Sceptre denies a lot of the opportunities a bodyblock provides. You can also only bodyblock very tight loops which are hard to actively keep looping, and standing still lets her form swap to phase through the bodyblocker (unless that was fixed in the most recent bugfix set, I'm taking a break until next hotfix's nerfs just to see how the changes unfold).
She feels like she has a tool to deny p much every opportunity.
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I too think Krasue's aim assist is way too aggressive. Great point OP!
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@MostBestPlayer said:
Im sick of struggling getting even 1 kill.
if youre losing so frequently that 1k is a struggle then you already are losing MMR.
mmr isnt very functional at the moment though, so it might be a while before you start to see fair games. best of luck regardless
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@Steakdabait said:
They'll tell you to go play civ 5 again lol
Oh that's my intent - lots of games came out this month so I'm going to take a break until counterplay is found or BHVR forces some to be added.
Maybe Civ 5 can be in that rotation lmao
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Its a suggestion for BHVR to provide us with their intentions for the Killer.
Besides, I'm sure the lovely moderators will move it should they disagree!
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Can confirm this happens even if the source of the Exhaustion is on the survivor's end. See the clip below where my sprint burst is the source of the Exhaustion.
https://youtu.be/1UwvbVc9mzk -
slam gens and pray. she has high mobility, hugtechs and a scamper. there is legitimately no chase outplay so you have to win the efficiency game
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It felt like the first round of milestone quests were used to benchmark and then they set them so that next to nobody would finish them all.
Additionally, the over-reliance on dailies makes the game feel like more of a chore, which im sure is fostering more negativity surrounding the game as people feel obligated to play.
This decision has been baffling. I miss the old rift.
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Just to be abundantly transparent, you have made:
- 6 posts arguing that endurance should be toned down
- 1 post aruging that, quote, "Players should not be able to complete generators so quickly that there is no contest."Why is it acceptable for killers to optimize for their win con, but not survivors?
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@Dadeordye said:
Comeback mechanics should be eliminated in ANY game.
You basically punishes the winner for winning.It lets both sides have fun more consistently. In a video game. Which is meant to be fun.
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how would splitting the survivor queues up even more fix the issue of killers not having enough survivors to populate their lobbies?
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They don't do this because they do not benefit from this.
Either they play exceedingly well and get accused of MMR tanking for the stream like content creators do already, or they play even slightly poorly and get harassed online for "not knowing what they're doing wrt game balance" as if playing the game well and balancing the game well require the exact same skillset.
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Blood moon really struggled to find a good balance. It wasn't necessarily unplayable most of the time but it really did consolidate the meta onto a few perks (especially survivors, sprint burst was so good that event) and i think three? killers were entriely unplayable - plague, freddy and i think houndmaster all couldnt interact with the blood gens for their power.
I'd be down for more map-specific interactions but I'm not sure gens is the right place to add them.
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youd just see penta-slowdown and quad second chance + exhaustion on both sides.
the optimization for this theoretical mode is solved and it's not going to make a gamemode that's an improvement on base dbd.
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@ratcoffee said:
Solo queue only
Everyone picks a killer and perk loadout.
The killer pool is shown (optional, not sure this would be a good idea but lets people counterpick a bit)
Everyone chooses a survivor build (can adjust to adapt to the killer pool)
One person is chosen to be killer at random. Roll is weighted towards people who have not played killer in a while.
Dead on arrival since one side mains wont want to play the role they dislike and SWF players can't play the mode at all.
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This is a genuinely excellent idea - giving Rookie Spirit a small reward incentive helps direct people that use it towards wanting to stop gen regression, and the amount exactly neutralizing the basekit kick before regression time and perks is well tuned to do that. On top of that, the cooldown keeps it in check.
BHVR should add this to the game sooner rather than later.
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Point systems are frequently requested but often fail to consider that it would make balancing the game more complex, not less. Arguments about how if perks should be worth 50 points or 55, reworked perks not being made worth enough points because of unhealthy interactions that devs didn't consider (like FTP Buckle Up), and so much else.
This idea adds another layer of overcomplication by having to introduce scaling outputs that may not be considered even by the playerbase. All in all, systems like this just serve to create pointless arguments about minmaxing perk scores.
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I feel like it'd be a good idea. Maybe old DBD truly was better. Maybe it wasn't. Either way, we'd quickly see, given how much better the playerbase is than they were all those years ago.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/451637/scourge-hook-idea
That's pretty poop perk.
Scourge Hook: Malevolent shift: Hooking survivor on the scourge hook grants you a token. Consume token to teleport to chosen scourge hook.
Scourge hook: Lost Hope: Every time survivor is unhooked from scourge hook get a token up to a maximum of 10 tokens. For each token the open exit will be blocked for 3s.
Sourge Hook: Shadowstep: When the survivor is hooked on a scourge hook you are granted undetectable. This effect linger for 7s after survivor is unhooked.
Scourge Hook: Shattered Mirror: When each surivor is hooked on scourge hook at least once, they will all suffer mangled and hemmorage status effect for the rest of the trial.
- free hard tunnel perk
- you want maybe as high as 90s of no gate progression before remember me and before noed pressure thanks to no wayo ut lost hope???
- being undetectable for the entire duration of a hook just validates camping strats.
- win more perk that we really dont need - why would there be no recovery condition for an effect like this?
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Amazing question - he isn't. Nonexistent cooldowns and "Kidnap Tech" - the ability to stun or hinder a survivor whilst vaulting a pallet - reduce his counterplay to next to none.
I played Kaneki a lot release week, but quickly grew tired as it was clear his skill ceiling was fake, the moment you had a passing understanding of his kit no team could hold a candle to his options. Trying again post nerfs it felt like very little if anything had truly changed.