jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Tatt3dWon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2949068#Comment_2949068
I literally agreed about the player count its still top 30 on steam. but yea the emblem system was wayyyyyy better than this sbmm doesn't work the way they have it kills and escapes don't define a dbd match. I have like 2k hours and the state of the game is pretty bad my whole discord yet small only about 100 people who play dbd and no one is ever on dbd anymore and thats just my small group I see many streamers hate streaming it now also its in a pretty bad state. The rubber banding alone makes it unplayable.
Oh, I apologise- I misunderstood what you meant by "no its not", my bad.
Anyway, the emblem system was materially much worse than the system we have now, and even worse-- they have similar flaws, inconsistency, but the MMR system is inconsistent because of flaws in matching and the emblem system was inconsistent because it was inherently bad at judging a player's skill.
The MMR system, however, is very good at judging how consistently skilled someone is. Kills and escapes don't define a DBD match, no, but they are the win condition, and how consistently you win over a large batch of games is indicative of your consistent skill level. That's what I mean by people not really understanding the MMR system.
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@Tatt3dWon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2948991#Comment_2948991
as far as player count no its not. no one wanted sbmm that as a whole is why most people left. and the main reason people are leaving is because its boring and they don't work on fixing core issues look at the state the game is in right now streamers don't even enjoy the game anymore they get on stream to get the viewer count up and leave to go play other stuff even the youtube viewership is down.
Everyone wanted a replacement for the emblem system. They wanted a more accurate and consistent matchmaker, and what that means is that what most people wanted was an SBMM system. Like I said, people have a generally poor understanding of what the flaws with the MMR systems actually are.
As for the player count, yes it is. Maybe it won't be sometime later, but right now, the player count is stable enough that the game isn't suffering tremendously for it. It'd be better if the numbers were higher, but the game isn't dying. You say the SBMM is why most people left, but the reason those steam numbers went down was that the Resident Evil chapter brought in a ton of new players who didn't all stick around, which is totally normal. Maybe some people did leave because of SBMM, but it's at best completely unprovable that it's why most left.
I can't speak to streamers. No comment.
I have looked at the state of the game right now. That's how I come to these conclusions, because it's not as bad as some people claim it is.
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Everything there can be explained without even being bad, let alone someone trying to kill the game.
SBMM: An actively good idea that people within the community wanted. While it hasn't been implemented well, the community at large seems to have a tremendously poor understanding of why- think about how many times you've seen people say it "doesn't accurately measure skill".
Cheaters + Bots: A problem every game has to deal with that only gets worse as the game grows, and one that BHVR are simply having a hard time dealing with quickly. Certainly room for criticism, but there's nothing malicious about it on BHVR's end.
Optimisation: That's just inherently going to get worse as time goes on, and there are a lot of games that are poorly optimised. Again, something that can be criticised, but there's no need for conspiracy. A lot of games just generally aren't optimised well.
Playercount: While the game's average playercount has gone meaningfully down, I think, people always cite the dramatic falloff after the Resident Evil chapter without understanding that they're doing so (Steam numbers from July 2021 to Feb this year, in that infamous and damnable screenshot) and the game's playercount is still stable enough to not be in critical condition.
In general, the game isn't actually in as bad of a state as people like to claim it is.
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I've only played on it a few times so it's possible my opinion may change, but based on what I've seen so far it seems pretty balanced. Survivors have strong things to work with, but only if they know how to run them, and only if they're smart about avoiding getting caught in deadzones as much as possible.
It's definitely nowhere near as much of a nightmare as it used to be, that's for sure.
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Twins are next, but some other stealth killers should definitely be up on the workbench next for sure. Myers first, in my opinion, and then something for Freddy - though I don't know that his stealth is necessarily something they should be leaning into, I think there are other directions to go for him.
Onryo can probably stand to wait a little longer, in my opinion. She's newer, and she's doing fine, just a little undertuned. Killers with actually drastically weak kits should probably go first, especially ones who've had issues for longer than she's been in the game.
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The problem is that there's an all-but-guaranteed chance that survivors would try to abuse it, by forcing the killer to loop them around the hook; thus giving the killer a lose/lose situation where they either give a free unhook, or they give a free unhook slightly later. It's not great, and if they were to introduce this kind of mechanic to all hooks, they'd have to change a lot to make it function.
At minimum, it'd have to not move the hook if there are survivors within the same radius and it'd have to try and move the hook somewhere not close to any other survivors. That's the bare minimum, there's likely a lot of other things that'd have to change before it'd be balanced for all hooks all the time.
They could put in that work, and maybe it'd be a good change! But it's disingenuous to claim that it's a quick and simple fix that's being overlooked, because it's a lot more complex than just making all hooks act like cages.
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Nope. I like DBD, and the only reason I'm excited for more games in the genre is because I think this genre is underrepresented and there are precious few actually good entries into it.
There's a lot of room for experimentation with this kind of format, and I'd love to see what other companies come up with while still enjoying DBD a lot at the same time.
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Yup, it was just tweeted about.
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It's at times like these I wish I were a visual artist...
Ah well. I'll still be able to enjoy seeing what others come up with :3
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@dugman said:
I think Hex Thrill of the Hunt is something which should be an effect that isn’t literally a Hex. As in it provides slow down but the effect is tied tied to how many total totems are on the map. So cleansing totems effectively weakens the perk, but it’s not entirely cancelled.
Also it could be interesting if Thrill counted all totems, including Boons. That way placing a Boon has no effect on Thrill one way or another, you actually have to cleanse totems to weaken Thrill’s effect. It makes it into a choice for Boon players - place Boons and never cleanse or spend some time cleansing to make future Boons faster to place.
It already does, for that last part- Thrill doesn't lose tokens when a totem is blessed, so the only way to diminish or remove it is to break totems, not bless them.
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Because your MMR on one killer is unique to that killer, it'd mess up the matchmaking (...even more) to have killers swap between characters they have wildly different MMR on once they've already found a lobby.
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Thrill is extremely useful for Pentimento builds. It, Pentimento, and Plaything forces survivors to do totems unique to them that they'll want to break even if they have a boon perk, because blessing over their Plaything would take nearly a full minute with Thrill still up.
In general, it's also just most useful as a counter to boon totems. It makes blessing take long enough that survivors will be more inclined to break at least the one bone that has Thrill on it, and they'll want to break any hex instead of blessing over it unless they want to spend a very long time doing so.
All in all, Thrill's 'nerf' ended up being a lateral move; it's not a totem defence perk anymore, but it's a moderately good totem slowdown perk alongside being a pretty decent boon counter. People want the notification back, but imo that's a bad idea- rather, I want to see it no longer be a hex, so survivors have to break totems to lessen its impact.
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It's not killswitch worthy; it's not literally broken, nor is there a bug to exploit.
It does suck, though. I hate the Swamp maps, they're easily my least favourite in the whole game- their only saving grace is having a ton of good grass for Trapper, that's it.
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This is a comparatively minor point, but I see people suggesting a ranked mode all the time and I think you've hit on the major misunderstanding all of them have. If we had a casual mode and a ranked mode, the casual mode would be the one that functions like our current system, MMR and all, and ranked mode would have stricter rules. The MMR we have is not inherently a competitive one, it's a pretty stripped-back and basic one for less strict matchmaking - hell, the matchmaking is too lenient even for that goal, that's part of the problem.
It's not a good idea anyway, there's no need for it at all, but if we got it then it wouldn't look like what you're proposing.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940812#Comment_2940812
I wasn't saying that, I agreed and said the other side also needs help. Rude.
The thread contains both sides since OP included both sides. So both are valid here, not just survivors. The title is "why shouldn't killers tunnel?", not "Why can't survivors fight tunneling base kit" and they mentioned the comparison to survivors with gens in the OP.
Idk why you're yelling whataboutism when you're doing the opposite and trying to shut out killers needs as a talking point when the thread was about both sides from the beginning. If anything the thread was more focused on the killer portion that being the title and main question, yet now its whataboutism to talk about said portion?
I apologise, I was a little quick to jump to you countering my argument instead of adding on to it, which is something some in this thread have been doing. My bad!
I do disagree with your phrasing, though. I don't think killers need a method of fighting gen rushing, I think gen efficiency just needs to be lowered overall- be that through nerfing things that increase repair speed, or adjusting spawns so survivors can't be spread out one to a gen at the very start, stuff like that. The problem there is less a tactic that survivors are employing, and more the way the game's laid out in general, y'know?
Definitely, the killer side needs some help too, especially in areas that aren't strictly one-to-one comparable with tunnelling. A lot of it is more like... map size and layout, though, rather than specific tactics, so it'll be a more nuanced solution that'd fix it.
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They don't need to in order to be good developers, which is true for every dev team.
Whatever flaws lead to things like CoH or the original-buff Boil Over, it's not because the devs aren't particularly skilled at their own game.
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Undying was changed because it was a bad design on its face, and I'd argue Thrill would benefit more from other changes. There are killers in the game now who'd be able to use Thrill's old notification to prevent any cleanse from ever happening, too, so I don't think it's a bad thing that got removed.
Make Thrill not a hex anymore, that's my suggestion. Have it only scale down with every cleansed totem.
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@FrostyEyesSusie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940461#Comment_2940461
It is an exploit because it leaves the killer no room for success, at least without camping or tunneling. And your suggestion is to nerf precisely the only available recourse for weaker killers. Which is my whole pointm, you are asking for killers to be nerfed without offering an equivalent exchange on their power budget.
And yes, Ravens Watercolor, due to being cross shaped, has the longest walking distance from one side to the other, even more so than Mommy's Home.
The best your argument can achieve is that some changes to map size should come at the same time as the changes to tunnelling, because none of this changes that survivors don't have any input if killers choose to down them immediately after they're unhooked unless their teammate brought BT or they brought DS. I understand you're using "exploit" to just mean "unfair", but that's just not what that word means; they're still not exploiting just because it's really strong for them.
You're not going to catch me arguing that map sizes are fine, or that killer needs no changes. That just isn't what was initially being discussed- hell, I opened this by saying that I don't want killers' ability to tunnel taken away, I just want the most egregious and unfair version of tunnelling adjusted so everyone has input in the situation.
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@Carth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939557#Comment_2939557
What is the killer answer to 4 survivors splitting up at the start and tunneling gens?
@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939557#Comment_2939557
yeah, we also need a basekit solution to survivors tunneling gens.
The fact that the killer side of the game also needs help doesn't detract from or counter the assertion that the survivor side needs help too. We can and should be talking about and advocating for both to get proper changes.
This thread wasn't about what changes killers need, or I'd have mentioned that myself. This is just whataboutism.
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@FrostyEyesSusie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940445#Comment_2940445
Lets take an outrageously big map like say Mom's Shack or Crow Painting. Survivors will deliberately do gens at opposite sides of the map so that it's physically impossible for killers without mobility to prevent at least 3 gens from popping before the first hook simply because the travel time from one corner to the other is so long. That's not just playing a big map, that's outright exploiting said map's size in order to make it nearly impossible for the killer to actually secure kills. Should Freddy's teleport be made basekit in order to prevent that from happening? Why is the fact that survivors have to purchase a DLC to get DS an issue but the fact that all but 5 killers in the roster face a losing game from the get-go not an issue?
Have you ever taken the time to wonder what would happen to Trapper or Pig or almost every killer but said 5 (and even out of those 5, Freddy and Sadako are so weak all around they might as well not count) if they are denied the only strategy they have in such scenarios (camping the first hook and hoping the other 3 survivors will leave their gens and come to them instead) if BS and DS are made basekit? Or how much the survivor power budget would increase if they found themselves with 2 extra slots to equip more busted perks?
That's still not exploiting a map, it's playing the map efficiently. I'm not saying it's okay, I'm not saying it's justifiable, and I'm not saying nothing needs to be changed- what I'm saying is that the word "exploit" implies both that something's working differently than intended, and that people are actively choosing to abuse that thing. If it's working normally and people are just using it as its intended, that is not an exploit, it's just a badly designed part of the game.
Survivors who play on big maps aren't to blame. What's the alternative, should they intentionally play worse and make it more likely that they'll lose just because they spawned into a big map? Even if they're using an offering, the problem is still the map itself, not how people are playing on it- Red Forest wouldn't be okay if survivors clumped up on gens, it'd still be a nightmare.
As for your last comment, if both were made basekit that'd be a tremendously bad idea, and thankfully that's not on the table. Only BT is even in the discussion, and as I've been consistent about so far, I don't personally think making its actual effects basekit is a good idea- rather, the idea of something like it being basekit is a good idea. For the record, my recommendation is a few seconds of no collision, so survivors have the breathing room to make a tiny bit of distance and try to loop if the killer wants to hard tunnel them. Something like that wouldn't be as absurdly broken, and while the killer side would still need help, that doesn't change either way.
...Also, obligatory mention that Eyrie of Crows isn't that big, it's the medium/average size for a map. That's not relevant to the point, but y'know.
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@FrostyEyesSusie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940310#Comment_2940310
I said "exploiting big maps" is a strategy, not that "big maps" are strategies in and of themselves!
Ah, that wasn't clear from your phrasing, my bad.
Same counter applies as to the comment about loops. Survivors aren't exploiting big maps, they're just playing on big maps. They're not at fault, the design of the maps is at fault.
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It's pretty decent, I just feel it's a slightly too inconsistent information perk.
I'd sooner run something else, but I also don't consider it completely useless if it's the only thing I have while levelling a killer.
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This idea comes up every once in a while, and I'm not convinced it'd help people out as much as they think it would?
SWF have the capacity to be a really tough, sweaty match, but they also have the capacity to be a bunch of people barely trying because they're hanging out in voice, or a bunch of overly-cocky, extremely altruistic flashlight types gifting you a free win. On the flipside, too, a competent and skilled group of solos should be feared almost as much as a decent SWF, because the survivor role doesn't require you to be on voice to be a noteworthy looper or to know the right times to go for a save, and so on.
All seeing SWF in the lobby would achieve is a bunch of people dodging lobbies that they might not have had any reason to, and that's not a good thing.
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@FrostyEyesSusie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940272#Comment_2940272
You don't need to explain how "big maps isn't a strategy" because that was never something I said. Please make up quotes for me, that's very unpolite.
There is definitely a lot of "exploiting" loops going on when said loops are easily chainable. And if they should be adjusted, then please do so before lobbying for giving even more power to the already easy role. Because undermining "legitimate strategies" only when they are in favor to one side is a good way to make queues even longer.
You... did, you included "big maps" in a list of strategies, I just double checked.
As for loops, that's not exploiting them, that's using them. They're designed to be used that way, so doing so cannot be exploiting by any definition. Does that mean they're okay? God no, there are some truly nasty setups that can spawn on some maps, but the survivors who use them aren't "exploiting"- those players aren't to blame, the map generation is to blame.
Yes, killer side needs help too. I never implied otherwise, this thread just wasn't specifically about the help that the killer side needs so I didn't think to mention it. Both sides need help equally, in fact, albeit in different directions.
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I'm not sure, I feel like boon snuffing is already fast enough that increasing the speed doesn't really help you out all that much. Personally, I lose more time from finnicky angles and not being able to find the damn thing to begin with than I do from the like, second-long animation.
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@FrostyEyesSusie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939557#Comment_2939557
And rushing gens and exploiting loops and big maps are also legitimate strategies that killers have no basekit answer for. So maybe Ruin/Pop should be basekit also. And Brutal Strenght and NOED too.
Rushing gens, sure, but there's no "exploiting" loops and I don't think I need to explain how "big maps" isn't a strategy. Also, the perks you're suggesting wouldn't even fix those problems?
Maps should be shrunk and some loops should be adjusted, it's not a "perk made basekit" situation. This is a really poor attempt at drawing an equivalence, honestly.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939786#Comment_2939786
Okay. Imagine this: the game just as it is now, but you have a number assigned to your account from say, 1-20 based off your MMR rating. The higher number correlates to a higher rank. This is ranked mode, yes? Now imagine if the number that showed your rank was hidden. You are still playing what is essentially ranked mode but without any feedback about your rank.
This is the system we currently have. There is no quick play equivalent which uses the MMR rating in a looser fashion than the actual ranked mode. It's all the same thing.
Anyway you've got a good point about it sandbagging better survivors. There's not really any reason to compound folks bemoaning solo queue.
That wouldn't be ranked mode, no. You'd also have to have defined ranks (which in DBD's case would have to be separate from the grade system's ranks), you'd have to have those ranks reset in seasons at set intervals, you'd have to have stricter rules than the quick play queue, and you'd also have to have a quick play queue.
MMR is not synonymous with ranked mode, and it isn't being used the way ranked modes are used here, either. It's just a standard matchmaking queue, and that's why you don't see your MMR; you have no reason to because your MMR number is useless to you. The standards of play set out via incentives are governed by emblems, not by MMR.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939703#Comment_2939703
You are aware that we do play in ranked mode, yes? Obfuscating the functionality of the thing does not change the underpinnings of it.
What's the worst case scenario with the offering? Someone boosts themselves and learns they're not at good at the game as they'd like. It's not like they have the capacity to make their opponents miserable with it. It's just a fun thing to play with.
...No we don't? There's no ranked ladder associated with the matchmaking, so it's just a matchmaking system. There is a progression system in this game, but it's not tied to the MMR number, it's separate.
The functionality and underpinnings of MMR are also present in the quick play modes of games that do have a ranked mode, after all, so clearly there has to be more than just that.
As for the worst case scenario, maybe they can't make their opponents miserable but they can sure as hell make their teammates miserable. If unbalanced games are a problem, allowing people to push themselves into unbalanced games is clearly also a problem.
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@Seraphor said:
Anti-camping counter is rushing gens.
I'm not sure how you can counter tunneling without a perk or an item though.
As for basekit techniques in general, survivors also have 360's, various pallet techs, and disappearing around a corner that they can see around (third person camera) but you can't.
After all, camping and tunneling aren't features, they're behaviors.
The best anti-tunnel change they could implement, at least that I can think of, is a few seconds of no collision when someone's unhooked. It wouldn't be abusable in any way I could see, and survivors could only use it to make distance and give themselves a fighting chance at outplaying the killer's attempts at tunnelling - and on the other side, killers can wait it out without worrying about bodyblocking or anything.
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I agree with it wholeheartedly.
I wouldn't necessarily say that the basekit counter should be as potent as the perk equivalents (EG, I don't think the answer is literally just the effects of Borrowed Time verbatim made basekit), but I think that the logical continuation of "tunnelling and camping are legitimate strategies" is "so there should be legitimate answers to them which aren't gated behind perks".
The only exception imo is slugging. I think having the answers to that be behind perks is fine, since there's more of a capacity for your teammates to help you when you're slugged without the need for perks, less so for when you're tunnelled.
It goes without saying that I'm talking about actual tunnelling here, as in, being downed after just a few seconds passed from your being unhooked. If the killer happens to find you again after chasing someone else and travelling half the map, that's not tunnelling, that's just bad luck.
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I wouldn't really call hidden MMR "cute". Maybe I'm just missing a few key examples, but I can't think of any game that shows you your matchmaking MMR when it isn't tied to a ranked mode?
Anyway, I think it's obvious that this isn't a great idea for an offering. The system should just work, there shouldn't be a need for self-correcting like this- and something like this will just lead to a bunch of boosted people who are convinced their skill is higher than it actually is, it'd throw matchmaking even more out of whack.
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@ReikoMori said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939679#Comment_2939679
That's where we diverge in opinion. That's the point where perks, luck, and/or teamwork need to be key factors at play and this me speaking as a person who primarily plays survivor these days. I don't want anything that would be better suited as a perk as basekit because keep in mind that anything you make basekit needs to be substantially weaker than it would be otherwise.
The problem with that is that if perks are a key factor in this instance, something that you have no control over and that is a very efficient way for your opponent to play, that means there's a heavy incentive to use that one perk, which means that one perk can't be shaken out of the meta by buffing other perks nor can you justify nerfing it.
Perks that cover for basekit gaps, like the inability to do anything about being tunnelled if it happens within a few seconds of being unhooked, are a problem. They're part of why the survivor meta has been so stale for such a long time; sure, Dead Hard and Iron Will and Circle of Healing are just very strong perks, but Unbreakable, Decisive Strike, and Borrowed Time have been meta because you almost feel punished for not running them when you inevitably face a killer that tunnels (or slugs, in the case of Unbreakable).
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939557#Comment_2939557
Making 2 second chance perks that double as 2 of the best perks is a hard pass from me.
IF they fixed maps so they were a little more fair to killers. I might agree DS and BT should be basekit.
But they won't. So they shouldn't.
Does survivors having DS, bt basekit. So they're free to run prove, BTL with tool boxes. On TOP of having 2 basekit features like that sound like a good time ?
Because I don't. It sounds like a recipe for regular 4 outs and bags at the gate. followed by stupid comments like "ggez" "git gud" etc etc.
I didn't say that the effects of those perks should be basekit, I said survivors need something. In my opinion, the best option is a few seconds of no collision, so there's still a benefit to bringing both of the perks that currently protect against tunnelling if you want to but you don't need to for people to be able to exercise some control over the chase.
@ReikoMori said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939557#Comment_2939557
The basekit answer is effective tile chaining to increase the time it takes for the inevitable to happen. If you can make the majority of killers have to spend a minute or longer chasing you when their hard tunneling then you're good as long as your team does gens.
Agreed. That's why something to protect survivors for a few seconds is the best call, so they have the breathing room to start chaining tiles effectively and their skill can actually mean something.
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In fairness to survivors, they can't exactly do anything about a killer hard-tunnelling them unless they bring one specific perk, or hope that their teammate brought the other specific perk that helps against tunnelling.
Tunnelling is a legitimate strategy for killers to employ, but because it's a legitimate strategy, there should be a basekit answer to it. That's my view, anyway.
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@Amazingmrsg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2938742#Comment_2938742
Ok? It will not hurt anything to add one do.
What do you think is a better option then?
For a start, something equivalent to the things I just listed would be the best first step. Even if you want voice chat (which, to be clear, I personally do not), the work to set it up has to be done first- the people without the capacity to use voice chat need to be considered as well, but they also have to be considered first.
The suggestion that BHVR floated for action-status icons is a great first step, but I'd also suggest being able to see your teammate's perk loadout, and maybe some visual cues for what direction your teammates are in generally- I don't want to cannibalise the value of aura reading perks, so I don't think you should get constant teammate auras, but something for location is probably going to be necessary.
(Also, yes, it will hurt something: it'll hurt the tone and it'll allow toxicity to be even more potent. Those may be acceptable downsides to some, but they are unambiguously downsides.)
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@Amazingmrsg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2938735#Comment_2938735
Like what?!? There is other options because not everyone one has a mic that is why there is other options not because the voice chat add nothing. Like examples Among now has a chat version why do that if chat does nothing?
Well, to pull from a game that I have personal experience with, Overwatch has the ping system, the kill feed, the ability to see teammate outlines through walls, visible health bars and ultimate charge for your teammates, and passive character callouts for certain things changing. Of these, only one - the ping system - actually requires your teammates to do anything for you to benefit from it, and that's one of the reasons why voice chat isn't a one-size-fits-all solution; not everyone is going to own a mic or be willing to speak into it.
Another reason why voice chat isn't the solution would be the language barrier. If a solution only sometimes works for one region of players, it's not a solution at all.
I'm not saying voice chat inherently does nothing all of the time, there are situations where adding voice chat to a game would be the right call, but Dead By Daylight isn't one of them. The nature of the problem isn't fixed by a voice chat system not everyone will be able or willing to use.
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@Amazingmrsg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2938697#Comment_2938697
Voice chat is in Co-op games for a reason to help each other. If you add little thing like body language ppl do not really pay attention to that much.
I play ummm game like Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six siege, Hood:Outlaws & Legends, Predator:Hunting Grounds and Friday the 13th: The Game I can go on and on.
All games like this should have a voice chat
Right, but every game that has voice chat also has other methods of communicating or receiving information, because voice chat isn't always applicable.
Voice chat would add nothing to this game, fix none of its problems, and make things materially worse. It's just not worth it, other options are better.
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There are actually a few reasons not to include voice chat- it'd shred the tone to pieces, for one, and there's no way it wouldn't lead to an explosion of toxicity that BHVR would undoubtedly struggle to moderate properly.
It also wouldn't bridge the gap between SoloQ and SWF, that huge gap in experience that makes balancing so difficult would still very much be there for a huge majority of the playerbase, so that's another reason it'd be a waste of resources and time.
Needing to know what your teammates are doing is definitely part of what makes Solo and SWF so dramatically different, but voice chat wouldn't solve that- better to have other, more consistent methods of knowing at least what your teammates are doing.
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Well, it makes sense. Object and DS were both causing very real, quite substantial problems for the game's health, and Sole Survivor wasn't + isn't.
I'd still like to see it reworked, though. It's just not very good.
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@squbax said:
Why play slinger when huntress exist tho, just play her, you avoid the bug and play an actual decent killer its a win-win.
Because I like Deathslinger.
At the topic, I've seen a few other people report this so it does seem to be a thing right now- though I haven't tested myself, so I don't know if it affects everyone. Either way, hopefully it gets fixed pretty soon, it's pretty major.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2937203#Comment_2937203
sticking on generators for longer is different to paying attention to your surroundings
there isn't anything in regards to paying attention to surroundings. they're either going to do fake generator(hold m1 longer) or ignore generator because they know its fake. your just debating how the survivor should get punished in-time efficiency.
An old idea for legion was that his power should allow him to mimic survivors which other player point to swf making the power useless. Illusory objects have same problem for why mimic idea fails to work. Freddy still going to get trashed on unless its like impossible to break out of dreamworld but that wouldn't really feel like freddy.
Freddy's design at every different incarnation of his power is that he's never been fun.
correction: He was never fun for survivor. there wasn't anything wrong with him on killer side. There are 27 total killers in current DBD, not every killer will appeal to every killer player and that is ok.
Oh, I think I forgot to mention that aspect of my idea in the shortened version- if a survivor touches the fake generator, it disappears and they scream. The fake generators can't actually be repaired, that would just be making survivors hold M1 for longer.
As for your correction, even if that's true - and I'd argue it isn't, he still has an uninteractive and flat power design for the killer side - that's still more than enough reason to change it. Obviously, fun is subjective and can't be the only thing changes are made to achieve, but if a killer is complained about specifically for how boring and unfun simply slowing down action speeds is, that's a good reason to look into changes. Survivor fun matters just as much as killer fun, you can't ignore it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2937084#Comment_2937084
Survivor players are still playing the game, and if a killer's power is as boring to verse as "you spend more time holding M1", that's a complaint that's worth taking seriously.
how is adding extra fake generators and totems any different from holding m1 longer? Its just creating same effect with a different representation. at very best, survivors might wake up and the mechanic is ineffective because its too easy to render the effect ineffective. At the very worst, suppose that alarm clocks and failed skill-checks did not wake you up, It might have similar-levels of effectiveness. Illusory objects are also just really bad vs SWF as only one person needs to be awake for entire dream mechanic to be ineffective.
there was nothing engaging about Forever Freddy. It's not "threatening", it's "boring".
Why did it receive changes if it was not threatening? I think your deeply wrong to believe that freddy wasn't strong. Although his changes were not explained in detail, they were explained prior to his changes with a perk called thanotophobia. I will give my version of the summary. survivors that took too many hits too quickly got punished by his add-ons and the two perks(sloppy+thano) and typically, survivors gen-speed is so potent that survivors do not need health-states to loop a killer because a lot of pallets in this game are safe such that they act-as stacked sequencing health-states. His add-ons in combination with sloppy and thanotophobia gave him a nearly augmented mangled status effect ranging between 30%-47% healing action penalty. Seeing such strong action penalty towards healing, Once you got hit by freddy, you were likely playing the game injured, so the typical spam health-states, bodyblock second chance gameplay was absent weakness for him. As his add-ons also slowed generators along with said perk, it created lose/lose situation for the survivor where healing is not possible but doing generator was difficult.
The chases weren't easy because of his snare-anti-loop. He was like playing against Plague as broken without ability cleanse while plague having unlimited corrupt puke in an m1 form. The only counter-play to him was his game slowdown diminishing effectiveness the more generators were complete, so if you played properly with survivor and did not make mistakes at loops, you could finish all generators by having strong starts. He had that proper Climax form that killers like EV3 Myers fail to have against strong players.
In other words, you had to be good at the game to beat him as survivor, but survivor couldn't put up with his gameplay. As result he was changed into this pointless form that barely anyone plays.
...It's different because it's not the same thing? Sticking on generators for longer is different to paying attention to your surroundings, it's the reason why other slowdown killers aren't as boring to go against- they actually ask you to do something beyond stare at a progress bar and occasionally hit space.
And yeah, I agree, pre-nerf Freddy was stronger. He was also boring as hell, because having your action speeds drained like that is dull design. It'd be better to have him be more potent in strength, sure, but the actual problem with Freddy's design at every different incarnation of his power is that he's never been fun.
You're right, I misspoke by saying that it wasn't threatening. What I should've said is that the problem wasn't just that it was threatening and nothing more, the problem is that it was threatening and extremely uninteractive. The light in the tunnel, of course, is that phantom objects and playing around the Dream World being his to control is interesting in theory if they drill down on it a little more and make the Dream World more potent, so that's why I don't think he needs a complete ground-up rework and why he definitely doesn't need any current changes simply reverted.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2936935#Comment_2936935
canonically they're not really his powers so they make little sense.
At best, survivors might wake-up more often to avoid fake totems or generators, at worst they just ignore it. When freddy's dreamworld was threatening, survivors still ignored his dream world mechanic and just suffers max penalties regardless. Suppose they were hypothetically effective game slowdown, survivors would just complain he is is strong again.
He is dead a killer. He is good cover art for the game and he is ok for new players to you know, role-play as. There is just not that much reason to re-invent the wheel with him. They could revert him into his original state and he would be a fun stealth killer that isn't that strong or they could revert his negative changes and he would be jack of many trades with a more presentable power-level. Unfortunately the game is heavily survivor bias and survivor were not fond of facing either version of him, so I would assume that he is going to stay where he is at.
How d'you mean, canonically?
Canonically what he does is prey on people via their dreams, where he reigns supreme and everything around them can be twisted to his liking. That's what he does, and illusory objects is a much more accurate representation of that than either the snares or the awfully designed action speed slowdown.
As for your last point, killers being fun to face in general is just as important as them being fun/viable to play. Survivor players are still playing the game, and if a killer's power is as boring to verse as "you spend more time holding M1", that's a complaint that's worth taking seriously. Same with his old addons, there was nothing engaging about Forever Freddy. It's not "threatening", it's "boring".
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2936327#Comment_2936327
survivors already know what is real and what isn't real no matter how many fake objects you place on the map. They know it because of the killer has to be in proximity to set traps which in this case is fake pallets. Its typical strategy also used against trapper. You can stay in terror/in close proximity of the harmless killer and know approximately where the chases take place and where potential fake pallets are.
There is old saying, "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer". This is exact dynamic used against pallet freddy. A lot of maps do not have places to put fake pallets and force you to break pallets first before being able to place them, but the survivor can through process of elimination know which areas the killer has chased and avoid fake pallets altogether.
Doctor has add-on called Order Carter notes and it places fake pallets automatically, but rarely does anyone really fall for his illusion pallets. The reward is not really that good either. At best, it is a hit and at worst, they do nothing.
Illusory objects are weak gimmick. they do very little. There is simply no reason to expand on them.
Fake pallets just aren't that useful, which is why they'd be part of the basekit alongside snares. You'd get a little value from them, but not that much.
But, for the others, I disagree. You're telling me no survivor would ever fall for totems that look completely identical to real hexes? No survivor would touch a generator that looks partially done? Obviously they're not going to be a Nurse/Blight/Spirit level power, but they wouldn't be useless, and they'd make him fun for both sides instead of kinda boring for the killer and extremely boring for the survivors.
My goal isn't to make him stronger. My goal is to make him more interesting and fun for everyone, and a small part of that is making sure he isn't too weak. With his current existing power and more stuff added on top of that, that's a pure upside.
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Very unbiased options here lol
Anyway, I don't think people should "stop complaining" per se, but it would be nice if people made their complaints accurate. Nobody can deny that the end result of our matchmaking situation isn't great, but the reason for that isn't because of how the MMR number is calculated- that's just really normal MMR stuff. It's not that the MMR number "isn't accurate", it's that the matching portion has issues.
It's also not a problem because of the meta, or "sweaty tryhards". Those are balance issues, not matchmaking issues.
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David.
S'in the name, innit?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
what is this post on about? He already was reworked.
Freddy just needs a revert on his snare nerfs and add-ons.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2934127#Comment_2934127
fake pallets are useless vs good players. lore-wise, they do not make much sense either. Freddy lore is suppose to be about the idea that he is living nightmare, a ever presence of fear that exists everywhere. The dream world is suppose to make survivors feel a sense of fatigue.
Freddy snares make sense because he makes the survivor feel tired from running. -action speed add-ons also add onto this idea that the survivor are tired and work slower on objective. In previous iteration of nightmare, He used to be a stealth killer with perfect invisibility which made survivor feel like he was omnipresent entity and aura reading was there to give sense that he is controlling the world. In the new version, they gave him a generator teleport to make freddy feel like he's omnipresent entity around the map instead.
The reason why freddy sucks right now is because he doesn't have an identity. His dream world does nothing to make survivor feel like they're fatigued. the slowdown for placing snares counter-acts hindered effect. The add-ons that uniquely identified him as killer no longer exist. Oblivious is useless when the killer has lullaby and his teleport was always niche tool that added very little to his power-level.
He's basically F-tier in the sense that nothing he does is better than what other killers can't do better. Almost every killer who is mobile has better mobility than he does. Clown now has better chase than his snares. His gen slowdown do not exist anymore, but even if they did, pinhead chain hunt is better than his add-ons ever were. In the end, when players used to say old freddy is F-tier, they were right in the end. Current Freddy is F-tier at doing nothing better than what other killers can do better. Adding illusion pallets does little to fix his current problems.
Having the dream world be populated with more fake objects to make survivors question what's real and what isn't would be a much, much better way of giving him an identity than just making survivors do things slower. That is and always was incredibly lazy and boring design, and we shouldn't be going back to it.
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Hmm...
Nothing truly underground, but the original Hellblazer version of John Constantine is my pick, and I imagine he's not as well known as most of the other licenses in DBD. He'd make a perfect survivor, though.
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I don't think a full rework is necessary- I've said this a few times, but all Freddy needs is to lean harder into the idea of illusory objects.
Pallets + Snares both as part of his basekit, and a full addon overhaul to have his addons primarily focus on giving him other fake objects. Fake partially-done generators that make survivors scream if they're touched, fake lit totems that inflict status effects, fake chests, fake walls, and so on.
Make the dream world slightly more of a concern to be in; survivors can't trust their eyes and ears while asleep.
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Hard choice.
Maybe Trapper, I really like playing Trapper. Or possibly Legion- though I'd love having different Legion profile pics for the different members, if they did that I'd swap to Susie in a heartbeat.