jedimaster505
jedimaster505
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Killers never have to tunnel to win unless they have an inflated MMR due to relying on tunneling instead of learning macro strategy and chase skill. Tunneling is just much easier to do for a beginner killer but will be more heavily punished as MMR increases.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3941316#Comment_3941316
This isn't some weird or usual math, it's literally basic math. A 60% kill rate means on average over thousands of matches, the killer would get a 3k+ sliiiiightly under every other match which comes down to roughly 50% of the time. 62.5% would be on average 2.5 kills per match.
According to your "math", kill rate is win rate. That is realized to be flawed pretty quick with this example. If kill rate is win rate, then let's put it to the test. In this example, let's just say the killer plays 1000 matches and only ever gets a single kill. That puts him at a 25% kill rate on average. According to you, he wins 25% of the time, or 1 out of 4 matches. Please explain how the killer, with a 25% kill rate over 1,000 matches who gets a single kill every time somehow won 250 of those matches? Its incredibly clear that kill rate does not equal win rate. Now of course a killer will not kill the exact same number of kills every match, but in math, the model would work in every example situation, and im providing an example that points out the failure in logic to claim the kill rate is the win rate.
You say "lets put it to the test" and then ironically provide a hypothetical example completely out of touch with what is actually going on in games. In the actual game, killers are getting 3-4K more often than they get 0-1K, and so the average "win" rate is well over 50%. Though, how you want to define a "win" is frankly irrelevant because it is the rate of kills and escapes that define the actual balance of the game. After all, the killers primary objective is to kill and the survivors primary objective is to survive. There is no need whatsoever to even talk about what it means to win, as we can just look directly at kill and escape rates to determine game balance.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940811#Comment_3940811
wait a sec a 4 man swf has a 48% winrate they're almost escaping 50% of the time
Only 4 man SWF at high MMR. 4 man SWF overall does almost as bad as solos and high MMR overall does almost as bad as solos too.
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@terumisan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940811#Comment_3940811
wait a sec a 4 man swf has a 48% winrate they're almost escaping 50% of the time
Only 4 man SWF at high MMR. 4 man SWF overall does almost as bad as solos and high MMR overall does almost as bad as solos too.
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If kill rates aren't evidence that the game is killer-sided then killers should have no problem with a 50% kill rate, because it's not evidence of "anything".
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The number of "chances" a killer or survivor team has to be good or bad is completely arbitrary. You could say the killer has a thousand chances because every moment is a new opportunity to make a good or bad decision over the course of the match. You can define a survivor team of 4 players as a single organism that functions as a whole unit, with the entire match being one single, continuous event. Defined in this manner, the survivor team has only 1 chance to be good or bad and the killer has thousands. Your definitions are simply biased in the opposite direction of what I have just described. Basically, you are confusing yourself with motivated reasoning like in Zeno's paradox.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940811#Comment_3940811
Bruh, kill rate isn't win rate, lol. To put it into perspective, a 75+% kill rate is required to win a match (a 0k is 0%, a 1k is 25%, a 2k is 50%, a 3k is 75%, and a 4k is 100%). A 60% kill rate is on average killing 2.49 survivors a match which means a 60% kill rate equates to getting at least 3 kills slightly under 50% of the time. A 2.5k average would be a 62.5% kill rate which would equate to an even 50% chance to get a win.
This kind of math is a similar confusion to Zeno's paradox, where if you travel half the distance an infinite number of times, you never arrive at the destination. Sure, in a single match, a 60% kill rate is not a 3K, but this 60% is an average, which means over the course of thousands of matches the killer will get more 3-4Ks than 0-1Ks in order to maintain that average kill rate, which leads to a 60% win rate.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3940252#Comment_3940252
Sorry, can you rephrase? I'm not sure what you're referring to (genuinely). A survivor needing only escape for their win condition to be favorable. A killer needs at least a 3k for their win condition to be favorable. Not sure where you're coming from on a 2K. A 2K means two players won and 3 players lost. If you play make believe and believe survivors all win/lose/tie together and there are no survivor individual win conditions, then it's a draw between the two teams. This would be the most common optimal outcome if we pretended survivors are a team and set their escape rate to 44.2%.
I believe the game should be killer team vs survivor team, and that all survivors should win/tie/lose together. I also believe each team should have an equal chance at winning. However, BHVR disagrees and holds strong with balancing around 1 killer vs 4 individual survivors each with their own win condition. This naturally means that each survivor individually for themselves will win less often due to the fact that the killer has to deal with 4 opponents while a survivor only has to deal with 1. While you can't compare apples to apples for survivor wins and killer wins due to the asymmetrical nature of the game, as an individual survivor, it just feels crappier that you personally see less wins because the killer has 3 additional opponents they have to face against. When 1 player has multiple opponents, the other players with a single share opponent naturally has to have a lower win chance to make it fair. I feel that's lame, hence why I wish BHVR would change the game to killer team vs survivor team where all survivors have to work together and win/lose/tie together despite personal escapes. This would rebalance the game around bumping survivors up to a 44.2% escape rate which feels MUCH better than the 38.5% we need for fair balance when each survivor has their own win condition.
A 2K does not mean that 3 players lost. A draw is not a loss for the killer.
2 survivors escaped, 2 survivors were killed. So if we combine the 4 1v1's, killer wins twice and loses twice within a single match by sacrificing the survivors, which altogether balances itself as a draw for the killer.
Even if the survivors win, lose, and tie as a whole team, a balanced game would result in a 50% escape rate. For example, the killer can play 5 matches in a row and get a 0K, a 1K, a 2K, a 3K and a 4K. That's 2 losses, 1 draw, and 2 wins for the killer. The wins and losses therefore cancel themselves out which leaves a draw overall. An average result of a draw is as balanced as the game can get for both sides.
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Funny part is Kaneki is already S tier yet not even been out 2 months. Meanwhile Blight and Nurse are played by sweats with thousands of hours experience on their specific killer once you get out of baby MMR. Blatantly pay to win killer even after the soft nerf. What's worse is he requires less skill than Trapper to get consistent 4Ks in pub matches.
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Using an equalizer, gamma filters, and 3rd party comm's are all cheating regardless of what some "comp" sweats will say. It is not playing the game as is designed to be played.
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@Flawless_ said:
We all know "abandon" has basically become the new “go next” button, mostly used by survivors. The killer has almost no say, and when they do get to trigger it, it still counts as a loss. That already feels off.
But I also have a bit of an issue about how it undermines the killer’s experience. You play well, snowball the match, and suddenly the survivors throw themselves at you just to force an early end. Bots take over, and that's it. No satisfying finish, no sense of having earned a win, the game turns into a custom with bots cause everyone just leaves. I understand people want to move on but it feels a bit weird. It's like you're playing a sport, and when it looks like you're about to win your opponent just leaves, dunno.
What I personally enjoy about playing killer is that, even though games are a bit stressful sometimes, if you play well and efficiently it kind of builds toward something, but this system cuts that short the moment survivors are losing. It reeks of entitlement, like the expectation is to only stick around if you’re winning. Like if you get a slugfest two minutes in okay, fair. But 10 minutes into a solid match? Come on.
What really kills it for me is the double standard. As killer, if things aren’t going your way, you're stuck playing it out to the bitter end. But if the match turns against survivors, they can instantly bail as a group, no consequences. At that point, it's not even about slugging. It just feels like the game only plays to completion if the survivors are winning.
But the worst is, abandon counts as a draw. You could have one survivor dead and the other three slugged, and still not get credit for a win. That’s not a stalemate, that's just the surv team getting outplayed. Why deny the killer at least the win?
If this system has to stay, at least limit it. Make it only usable early-game or require all four survivors to be slugged. After that, it shouldn’t necessarily be an option.
Or just implement a real surrender system since, let's be real, that's what's really been happening most games, with people just throwing themselves at the killer in order to go next. At that point just let survivors vote to concede and just send them straight back to the lobby. And while you're at it give killers the option to forfeit too. That way both sides have a say without gutting the pacing or ending games in the most unsatisfying way possible for the killer whether they win or lose.
Right now it’s just a mess. Nobody wants to sit slugged for 3 minutes waiting for other people to go down, and nobody wants to get a draw whil being thrown into a custom with bots.
Just my 2 cents. I understand if most people don't agree with me on this one, although if the system is here to stay it feels like there's a lot of room for improvement.
Hate to break it to you, but killers don't earn their wins. BHVR gives killers wins for free as intended in their own words. They literally design the game to give killers free kills by inflating their kill rates. All those "wins" you got were just given to you by the developers that are afraid the loud and vocal minority of killer mains will quit the game if there is a balanced 50/50 game play. Truth is, yourself like many killer mains got a thrill from the power trip fantasy which BHVR has played into in order to sell killer DLC. Problem is, their strategy backfired with the suicide/DC epidemic so as damage control they've introduced a mechanic to help survivors rage quit. Still too stubborn to sensibly balance their game like other popular PvP titles, but since the survivor quitting was only getting worse they had to give them something before the game completely died.
For the record, killers already DC on a frequent basis any time something doesn't go their way in the match. It only seems to happen less often because there are 4 survivors per 1 killer, and the kill rates are so inflated that chances are the game swings in the killers favor, who then sticks around to shake his head at survivors, hump them on the ground, and smack them on hook.
The fact that you care about whether survivors "win" or "draw" or "lose" in an invisible MMR system shows that your motivation for playing killer is all about inflating your ego and feeling like you are so special for making the survivor lose. You've already "won" the match and the survivors want to move on yet you want to force them to hang around to rub it in their faces.
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The game is already heavily killer-sided in both high MMR, low MMR, solo Q, and 2/3/4-man SWF. These new anti-camping, anti-tunneling and anti-slugging changes will just separate the baby killers with an inflated MMR from the truly skilled killer mains. Yes, that means that most of you will end up back in low-mid MMR because you weren't even half as good as you thought you were. You were just cheesing abusable tactics that require zero brain power or technical skill to pull off, and are highly effective at giving easy 3-4Ks against more experienced and skillful survivors. It's gonna help the MMR system because the low skill killer mains will be put against beginner survivors. Currently, having a high kill rate as a killer main isn't even impressive because it's just so easy to do. Anyone can hop on any given killer and in less than 200 hrs, completely master that killer now matter how OP it is. Meanwhile, solo Q players have to put in thousands of hours just to get that level of success when it comes to escaping.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3928221#Comment_3928221
Aight. I took it seriously for a while, but I stopped reading after you claimed the killer wins a match after getting a single kill. Sure, he succeeds in one of his 1 v 1s, but he still has 3 more opponents to face. End of the match, he'll need a majority of his opponents sacrificed to get a personal win, while survivors need only escape in their personal win. You're conveniently forgetting there are 4 opponents total the killer must face. Maybe you're just very unfamiliar with asymmetrical game design?
Let's say a killer player plays 1,000 matches, and in every single one of them, he kills a single person. According to you, him having that 25% kill rate, means he wins 1 out of 4 of his matches...man, if you genuinely believe that, I don't know what to tell you. Heck, with your logic, a 25% kill rate is a 100% win rate since a survivor died.
I already laid out the math, as well as laid out what BHVR has stated the game is designed around. If you don't grasp it at that point, and are disregarding the math behind it, disregarding BHVR's explanation of how the matches are designed, and disregarding what the majority of the community has accepted, then there's not much point discussing this further.
We aren't talking about a single match, we're talking about an average win rate across a ridiculously large number of matches.
I am not forgetting there are 4 opponents per match. You keep talking about the win criteria for a single match, which is irrelevant, when the game being killer-sided or not as a whole is determined by the win rate across the entire player base, across all matches played.
The killer does not 1K out of 1000 matches. This is an irrelevant hypothetical which is out of touch with reality. Killers get a mixture of 0Ks, 1Ks, 2Ks, 3K,s and 4Ks, then BHVR determines the average results, while also removing a bunch of DC matches against OP killers that got an easy 4K (meaning the 60% kill rate is an understatement, but releasing the true statistics would be bad PR and infuriate the survivor main player base). But in any case, a 60% kill rate means killers get more 3-4Ks than they get 0-1Ks, on average. If killer genuinely were winning only half their matches, the kill rate would just be about 50%.
Even if I were to assume a killer somehow got 1000 1K's without intentionally throwing, the win rate is still 25% because the killer succeeded at his objective, to kill survivors, 25% of the time, while the survivors failed their objective, to survive, 75% of the time. The MMR system designed by BHVR themselves determines "wins" and "losses" based on the 1 v 1 outcome of killer vs a given survivor in the trial (yes, I know there are 4 per trial, the killer is made far more powerful to account for this). No amount of wishful thinking makes this game any less killer-sided than it currently is.
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Lol…killer mains always want these free hand outs because they're already spoiled by BHVR. Twins are easy as hell to pub stomp as it is.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927543#Comment_3927543
Sorry to tell you, but your math is way off.
A 60% kill rate does not mean he wins 6/10 matches. By that logic, does that mean a 75% kill rste means he wins 3 out of 4 matches? Of course not, it's because ALL of his matches. If he had a 25% kill rate, he wins 1 out of 4? No, thats a 0% win rate. If he had a 10% kill rste. He wins 1 out of 10? It doesn't work that way.
First, 48% escape rate is ridiculous considering there's 4 survivors. Let's put it into perspective. If there was 1 killer and 1 survivor, then the balanced escape rate is 50%. However, let's say there are now TWO survivors, obviously, BOTH of them having a 50% escape rate wouldn't be fair to the player who has 2 opponents. The more survivors there are, the more EACH survivor's escape rate MUST decrease to maintain balance. However, we don't have just 2 survivors, we have 4 survivors. That maths out to each survivor needing an 38.5% escape rate. This isn't me "repeating what others have said", this is literally the math. If each survivor with 4 survivors had a 50% chance to escape, for example, then the killer's chance to win would be in the 30's percentile. Imagine flipping a coin 4 times. What are the chances you'd get at least 3 tails after, say…100 flips? Not very often!
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/G2PLK1Z4EQ3Y/image.png
As for a 60% kill rate, that means on average they only get 2.4 kills per match. A 3K is required for a killer to win. For the sake of easier math, let's just say the kill rate is 62.5%. That's an even 2.5 kills per match on average. That means, over the course of several matches, they would win roughly half of their matches. I'm hoping you at least understand the basics of averaging, as I really don't want to have to break the math down further on something as basic as that.
Also, another thing you failed to understand is that there is no draw in a 1 vs 4 individual players match each with their own win condition. If there is a 2K, then the killer failed to win, 2 survivors lost, and 2 survivors won. You can't draw on 1 on 1 situations in DBD - survivors either escape or get sacrificed - it's very binary. Which survivor exactly did he tie with? You cannot answer that because there are no ties. Now, if this game was actually the survivors being a team that wins\loses together, then that would make room for ties and each survivor escape rate would math out to 44.2%. However, BHVR has already made it very clear over the past few years from comments and clarifications that survivors are NOT a team and are instead 4 distinct individual players each with their own goal and individual win condition. That's why it never says Survivors Win! or Survivors Lose! at the end. It's an individual report on if you escapes or not. Working together increases their odds, but they are also welcome to go at it solo. That's also why there are perks that exists that actively work against working as a team (such as sole survivor). That's also why some of their advertisements ask things along the lines of "will you help other survivors, or will you look only out for yourself?"
You can poke fun and laugh at the math all you want, but the math is math. 1 killer vs multiple opponents in which each of those opponents only have a single and same opponent clearly had to have a reduced escape rate to MAKE the game balanced. That's an asymmetrical game design. If they each had a 50% chance to escape, then the killer would practically never win. If there were 1,000 survivors, do you seriously think every single one of them should have a 50% chance to escape and the game be balanced? Of course not. The more survivors, the less the escape chance. That's not imbalance, that IS balance.
Do yourself a favor and stop digging yourself a hole with this convoluted nonsense. Yes, a 25% kill rate means an average 1/4 "win" rate. The game is basically 4 1v1's with the killer each match. If he kills 1 survivor, then he wins 1 1v1 and loses 3 1v1's. The killer "wins" every time he kills a survivor. This isn't difficult to grasp. The primary objective of the killer is to kill, and the objective of the survivor is to survive/escape. The MMR system itself, as designed by BHVR, determines "wins"and "losses" based on # of escapes/kills. So the killer has a potential to win/lose 4 times per match. Saying the killer requires a 3K to "win" is just stupid. We are not talking about a single match, but all matches by the entire player base. The killer wins against every survivor that he sacrifices, and that averages out heavily in his favor across all matches.
Your second paragraph fails to take into account the fact that the game is balanced for the killer to compete with all 4 survivors as a unit. The killer succeeds at his objective well over half of the time, assuming the survivor team as a whole is equivalent skill to the killer. This kind of balance is unheard of in other successful PvP games, which actually require both sides to use skill to win, instead of being handed free kills just because BHVR wants to sell more DLC and make killers "scary" (let's be real though, for such a large company, it is primarily the profit motive calling the shots).
No, the killer does not win roughly "half" his matches when killing 2.5 survivors/match. You are just rounding down the number to make it look balanced, when it isn't. He wins well over half of his matches, on average. Yes some games he will get only a 0-1K, but more often he will get 3-4Ks.
A "draw" is simply when in a given match, the killer wins 2 1v1s and loses 2 1v1s. Again, not hard to grasp. But when you take the average across all matches, the killer has by far the advantage when it comes to succeeding at his objective (which is obviously, to kill survivors). The average result is not a draw, it is heavily killer-sided, as shown by the 60% kill rate.
If the escape rate were 50%, then the killer would have a 50% probability to kill any given survivor, on average. This would also mean that the game were properly balanced, fair, rewards skill expression on both sides, applies game theory by balancing challenge and reward to create a flow state (a.k.a. the game is fun). Instead, BHVR has gone the route of turning their game into a gambling machine which is boring for killers, and frustrating for survivors, because it happens to be the case that this is highly profitable.
Your attempt to make the game appear "balanced" when it is very obviously heavily killer-sided is very obtuse and pedantic.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3927069#Comment_3927069
Only for newcomers. It's survivored sided once everyone has experience. A 60% kill rate means having one average 2.4 kills a match. That means killers getting a win slightly under half of their matches. For the game to be mathematically balanced, each survivor would need a 38.5% escape rate. Right now, experienced players numbers reported by BHVR has solo queue having a 40% escape rate all the way up to 4 man squads having a 48% escape rate...nearly 10% more than the balance line. The game is not killer sided XD
These are some crazy mental gymnastics and I've read this nonsense before since you're just parroting what you've read so I'll quickly refute it.
Even at the highest MMR, against the sweatiest SWF squads, the game is still somewhat killer-sided (48% escape rate). However, your sweaty high MMR comp-level 4 man SWF is the vast minority of the player-base, so that means that in your average pub match there is an abysmal escape rate and a high kill rate. And no this isn't only "newcomers", this is a majority of the player base ranging from beginners to seasoned vets. A single "newcomer" on a team with 3 vets that have thousands of hours each, can easily guarantee a loss for the entire team, as the killer can just target the weak link to win.
Your win condition is just stupid. Killers kill roughly 60% of time on average. That means they "win" 6/10 of their matches overall. Heavily killer-sided. Not to mention that BHVR pulls a PR stunt with their stats by excluding matches with DC's, which are all too often a 4K sweep by a Nurse, Blight, or other broken killers like Kaneki that are purposely made easy to win with to increase DLC sales. This kind of balancing is literally unheard of in other popular PvP games, where the mechanics are actually balanced to give both sides a fair game. Even if 2K is a "draw" for killer, that still counts as a loss for 2 survivors, which your broken logic is ignoring.
Oh yeah, I play both sides. Killer it's very easy to 3-4K consistently. Getting equivalent results as a solo survivor (75-100% average escape rate) is far, far, far more difficult to do.
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The game is already heavily killer sided as BHVR intends. You do not need yet another hand out.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3900265#Comment_3900265
or people could stop dcing, and play the match so that they can include the data. If you care that much about things you think are unfair then stop it, play the match. Take it on the chin , and stop tainting the data, so that they can look at it. This logic is flawed “ I feel like it’s unfair so I’m going to just leave and make sure that the match I’m in gets thrown out from the data, they should really look at this though” It doesn’t really make a lot of sense to argue from that point. Just stay and make sure it doesn’t get thrown out so they can look at it.
I'm not the one DCing lil bro. They do look at DC data and they can include DC matches but they won't because it's bad PR for BHVR to show the true kill rate and how high it actually is
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3900265#Comment_3900265
there’s plenty of killer DCs that would be reflected there too.
survivors dc far more often
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Well if we're talking solo Q standards then if you can last 20 seconds you're a star player, and earned yourself a hard tunnel and proxy camp followed by a BM shaking head and humping from the enraged killer.
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It's not hard to understand why Nurse's average is low. Most casuals suck at her, and a minority of players that put at least 200 hours into her 3-4K on auto pilot. Most players in DBD are mediocre and will choose the killers that are easy to 3-4K from the very beginning, even if those killers have less success than Nurse after 200 hours or so. Nurse is by far the easiest killer to win with in Dead by Daylight once you overcome this learning curve, it's just that most casuals won't do it, and most players are casuals. She ignores all the tools survivors have to counter killers with built-in wall hacks, no clip, and aim bot all-in-one with the right build.
Most killer mains are very low skill and let the OP mechanics do the work but once you put 200 hours into any given killer it is very easy to go on extended 3-4K streaks that are impossible as a survivor even in a SWF. The 40% escape rate is a huge overestimate because DC matches are excluded, and survivors frequently DC to OP killers that steamroll 4K at 3-5 gens left. BHVR won't release the stats with DC's cause it would look like they don't know how to balance their game whatsoever, because they don't.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3900264#Comment_3900264
Yea see what you are doing here, you doing what another commenter posted above.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3900229#Comment_3900229
Id go further into it but you are making the best assumption for nurse to fit a narrative.
With nothing to really back it up, just guessing a bunch of noobs play it, but then simultaneously those same noobs play other killers with high success rates (compared to nurse)
Unless you want to ALSO assume its just nurse mains that dont try other killers, and just forever suck at nurse keeping her stats down (several times by the way).
Which would be a horrendous assumption. People wouldnt try her, lose …. many thousands of matches just because, and either stick with her, and never get better. Or abandon her for other killers. Keeping her stats down.
200 hour assumption you have here I dont even think you'd get into the hundreds of matches so yea your assumption here really is inconsistent. And you'd need thousands of matches of just straight losing on nurse to get her to the point she is now, on a monthly basis nonetheless when they release stats.
TLDR: Your theory does not really fit.
I cant loops logic is still just as bad, maybe worse with a theory like this though.No I stated quite clearly she has a steeper learning curve than the other killers, which is why beginners bring her average down. But 200 hours+ and she's easy to stomp even 4 man SWF teams with that have far more experience per member. It makes perfect sense since most players are casual and not pro players. So they are beginner to intermediate skill level and will lose a lot initially when playing Nurse. Most of them give up at this phase after letting 4 survivors escape before they get 200+ hours on her to overcome the curve. They'd rather play even more auto pilot killers like Blight, Wesker and Spirit that 4K right out of the box.
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It's important to include the DC matches too, to reflect the actual reality of what's going on in your average match, instead of some hypothetical ideal where every survivor is a pro comp player in a 4 man SWF. DC's would bring the kill rates so high that survivors would be outraged so it wouldn't be a good PR move for BHVR. And while yes some DC's are for petty reasons most of them are actually because a Nurse or Blight or some other OP killer steam rolled the whole team at 3-5 gens and one player rage DC'd.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3900219#Comment_3900219
Nurse has had the lowest kill rate nearly 3 or 4 times now.
I guess its just a skill issue if you die to her using your logic. She needs buffs obviously.Most beginners play her and the learning curve is too steep so they give up and bring down her kill rate average. Put a measly 200 hours into Nurse and you can stomp veteran survivor teams on auto pilot. It's just a matter of getting some muscle memory down like learning to balance on a bicycle without training wheels, then it becomes extremely easy to dominate with her since she basically has wall hacks, auto aim and no clip all-in-one brought to you by the geniuses at BHVR inc, their only excuse for their game not being a pay-to-win gambling scheme. The other killers in this game including Blight are basically learning to ride a bike with training wheels on. Easy for just about anybody to pick up and win with very little effort. It's the only way they keep their licensed killer DLC selling. Release OP killers that are easy to play, and shake up the gameplay for both sides so that solo Q survivors don't get bored in spite of losing so much.
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Solo Q is definitely the hardest role, by far. I play both sides but mainly play solo Q, because I like a challenge. But I also like to learn the counters to killers and their add-ons by playing them first-hand. To win with this matchmaking and OP killer balance you have to basically hard carry every match in order to win as solo Q survivor. The issue is that low skill cheese tactics have been made so viable by BHVR in killer role that you can have a measly 200 hours as a killer and still dominate survivors with 1K hours+ each who should dunk on you if this game were sensibly balanced. So your skill discrepancy needs to be enormous to have good results, which will be the minority of the player base since most people don't play this game for a living. Just think of the Xeno nerf which got backtracked when a couple whiny killer mains complained about it BHVR panicked and reverted their changes in fear that the killers will stop playing if they don't have a nearly undodgeable tail attack.
The analogy would be if you're playing Rocket League, you basically need to be a Grand Champ rank pro player as a solo survivor to beat a Gold rank killer consistently. As long as you aren't playing like a Bronze or Silver level killer you'll get decent results as killer. Took me 2K hours as survivor main to start being competent on survivor side in solo Q and now at over 3K hours as survivor I can dominate most killers since a lot of them are mediocre with inflated MMRs due to stomping a bunch of clueless solo Q beginners. They really only get lucky when my teammates DC or suicide on hook and I'm forced to play for hatch, and I don't bring a rat build like Clairvoyance + Sole Survivor yet I still manage to outplay a lot of these mediocre carbon copy killers in end game 1 v 1s. They generally stop chasing me after 1 chase and give up to go tunnel the weak link, that's the only chance they really have.
I legit play killer just to learn their mechanics better and "take a break" from solo Q when I get bullshit matchmaking too many times in a row with survivor teammates that don't even have 200 hours. But it quickly gets boring 3-4King most of my matches without even being that mechanically good at killer, so then I go back to survivor for a real challenge. I just pretend I'm playing the "insane" difficulty of a single player game like Descent. But I'm insane so I make it work. Even the so-called "hardest" killers to learn and "weakest, low tier" killers according to these crybaby killer mains, I still dominate with. Doesn't matter which one I play because the built-in wall hacks, auto aim and no clip lets me win on auto pilot with just the most basic low skill brain dead cheese tactics. They say Blight takes skill but frankly I found him easier than most killers to learn and I can crush teams without even being very good at him just by understanding how good survivors play.
So yes the odds are stacked against you in Solo Q but if you do escape it is most likely because you're way better than the killer you're facing even though they're very likely to accuse you of cheating or being in a SWF when you do play well because they really hate when their ego trip gets shattered. The primary issue I see with most killer mains is that they depend on crutch builds with low skill cheese tactics and don't understand the game with much depth at all. What they do is search for their favorite idol killer main streamer and just copy their build and playstyle 1 for 1. This can be done in a few minutes quite literally and then you just practice it for a couple hundred hours. If you're an advanced survivor you know the perfect counter play to every trick these killers will throw at you. They have virtually no ingenuity and are cheap imitations of their favorite streamer kind of like a shiatty Led Zeppelin tribute band. But instead of copying Led Zeppelin, they're copying Otz or another popular killer main that found one effective build and playstyle that works for them. These imitators are one trick pony's and bring builds like Corrupt Intervention, Pain Res, Grim Embrace and Nowhere to Hide on Blight one of the most OP killers in the game. I can predict their behavior 3 steps ahead at all times because their knowledge is primarily second-hand and they never really experimented for themselves to deviate from the overly regurgitated hivemind playstyle which is only effective against beginner to intermediate level survivors that don't have comms. At the high level you need spontaneity, unpredictability and originality to succeed, and most of these killer mains have none of it because BHVR has been holding their hand every single step of the way since update 6.1. They wouldn't even last a week in their preferred role pre 6.1.
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killer is already the power role and now you want more crutches to compensate for your skill issue. if survivors got the gate open then you failed at your job as killer and no the devs should not hand you free end game kills because you can't catch survivors before the gens pop like you're supposed to do.
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hex perks abilities are super strong and the trade off is that they can be disabled, sometimes sooner, sometimes later. some games survivors can't find one for a long time. that's the risk you take. if they prevented survivors from disabling them then you would need to nerf all the hex perks
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@PubStar87 said:
Genuine question. I'm not.
EDIT: I hope you forum mods and devs are paying attention to this. I asked ONE SIMPLE QUESTION. Your players have spoken. You treat us like cannon fodder. We are DCing and giving up. Stop shaping your game around whales and streamers. Fix the hackers. Make it fun again or lose your players!
They already reverted most Xeno changes because some killer main content creators got upset that they can't get low skill cheese kills after the changes. They follow the $$$ which means releasing OP licensed killers and bending over backwards to whatever a handful of content creators that have a cult following believe.
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it's their newer killer and BHVR is 95% controlled by the profit motive. so their newer killers tend to be very OP.
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@Valimure said:
Killers are actually at some of their lowest killrates in this game's history right now.
The problem is that the game is very unfriendly to players at lower skill levels, especially survivors; there's also very few new players coming in to play killer / survivor so the matchmaking is… pretty terrible, to say the least.
Not a single killer in DBD has a sub 50% kill rate so you're definitely just making shiat up.
The current state of solo Q doesn't reward skill expression. Play any other popular PvP game and this will become very clear.
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He's not stronger than a good Nurse but he's definitely another example of an overpowered killer that requires only low skill cheese tactics to succeed. At least you can pre drop pallets against him unlike Nurse that just ignores them entirely.
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It's actually unplayable. Not in the sense that you can't press play, but in the sense that it's not worth playing. Mostly challenge with very little reward. Objectively bad game design. The reason being that a combination the OP killer balancing combined with horrendous matchmaking makes it so that there is little payoff for playing skillfully. It feels like I have to CS GO clutch for my team almost every single game.
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@Hex_Ignored said:
What soloq needs is a way to communicate and coordinate. Haste is something that needs to be heavily restricted otherwise we get mft/dull merchant
If haste only increases the escape rate of solo teams to 50 percent, then it will not be overpowered. Obviously, too much of a good thing can be bad. Not enough of a good thing is also bad. Funny how killer mains aren't crying about the base kit Bloodlust they receive for doing nothing but failing in chase, but are up in arms at the suggestion that disadvantaged solo players receive a slight speed buff.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897706#Comment_3897706
isnt that then an issue for blight and nurse? (talking about in terms of power lvl) because a pig wil have to do MUCH more work then a nurse or blight to achieve the same stats
At low to mid MMR any killer can dominate survivors. At high MMR it will mainly be Nurse, Blight, Spirit and they will appear far more frequently.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897701#Comment_3897701
dont forget these killrates (wich are probably taken from nightlight) are highly inaccurate due to the whole killing on hook dcíng etc
The kill rates are probably much higher than what BHVR released. Most DC/suicide on hooks happen when the game is very likely to be a loss anyways. And don't forget all the matches where the killer like Nurse or Blight steamrolls the team with a 4K and one of them DC's out of frustration.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897694#Comment_3897694
(the game devs apear to want a 2 die 2 out aspect in terms of matches) and with all these things to account you forget a tiny detail maps. sadly the map design isnt competetive to be "balanced" for the whole roster. where nurse can just ooga booga around garden of pain. pig might aswel not even try most of the time due to the simple fact that most loops eithe A: chain together creating sudo infinites or B: strong windows/pallets you HAVE to either break or play around wich wastes allot of time for these lower end killers due to their lack of mobility. I understand your points but as you probably know dbd is flawed to the core since it never expected to grow so drasticly
The maps are definitely imbalanced, but kill rates are high in spite of this.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897687#Comment_3897687
if their intentions are irrelevant then whats the point of them being a developer of the game????. and while it might be killer sided like you said its supposed to due to the asymetrical nature of the game (1v4)
When I say it is killer-sided, I am not saying that 1 survivor is more powerful than 1 killer, I am saying that 1 killer is more powerful than 4 survivors combined, assuming that their skill levels are the same, the killer will kill more than half of them on average. This is objectively bad game design for a PvP, which leads to a combination of boredom and frustration as opposed to fun.
What this means is that you can invest only about 500 hours into learning a specific killer, and compete competitively against survivor teams with thousands of hours per member. Not only that, but those games will feel unrewarding for both parties because the skill differential will remain obvious, while the killer can still cheese his way to victory with low skill tactics like slugging, tunneling and proxy camping instead of, for instance, being skillful in chase.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897685#Comment_3897685
but thats what the devs intend the game to be a 60/40 aspect ratio.
Their intention is irrelevant. The game is either killer-sided or survivor-sided, and it is killer-sided.
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@XDgamer018 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897680#Comment_3897680
just curious in what aspect is the game "killer" sided (no soloQ doesnt count bc its an asym game)
Killers kill more than survivors escape at all level of play.
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Because it's killer-sided in spite of the large doses of copium being ingested by so many killer mains.
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@Bodark said:
This is the worst idea imaginable. It’s a lazy fix and survivors don’t like lazy fixes. They tried making Huntress move faster to fix the issue of her being trash on 70% of maps and survivors shut that down because it was a “lazy fix” Giving free haste is literally removing any skill needed. You don’t like bloodlust so your solution is to give free haste to survivors?
Bloodlust exists because you aren’t supposed to be able to loop a killer indefinitely. You are supposed to go down at some point. Chases already go on far too long for most killers WITH bloodlust. Not to mention breaking pallets removes it. Along with using your power.
A 50% escape rate isn’t what Devs want either. They said they want a 60-40 split. So they should be nerfing SWF down to 40% and bringing solo queue up to 40%
Your double standard is hilarious. Bloodlust is basically just free haste for killers that can't use their skills to catch up to a survivor even with faster base speed. Yet giving this to solos that are at an inherent disadvantage is a big "no no". The truth is that killer mains with your attitude are power tripping and just want the ability to easily stomp solos that are above their skill level instead of winning by learning the game.
Yes the devs should aim for 50/50 as that is what creates an optimal gameplay experience. Both killers and survivors should be winning based on their skills and this is only possible when the two sides are properly balanced. You know what happens when games are unwinnable? People stop playing. Hence you are left with the DC/suicide epidemic that is the current unplayable game state.
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@vol4r said:
Bad idea. We need different ways to make soloQUE survivior experience better. Have you played on MFT meta?
MFT meta is irrelevant. Haste values would be adjusted specifically for a 50/50 escape/kill rate, so it would not be OP, it would only be fair. And since the Haste is applied only to solo players and adjusted based on the number of solo players, escape rates would be fair across the board.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897586#Comment_3897586
after we had MFT in it's prime (literally op perk at that time), you really want to create a "balanced game for soloQ, which suffers from problems that are only relevant to communication and individual survivor behavior?
You are suggesting a fundamentally broken mechanic that impacts individuals in team instead of something that would help overcome burnung problems of soloQ, such as:
1. lack of communication capabilities;
2. tome challenges encouraging gameplay that just griefs your team;
3. handling trolls and other people griefing matches.
This is incorrect. Haste bonus would simply allow survivors to last a bit longer in chases, on average, which would make escaping more viable. And since the exact Haste values would be adjusted for a 50 percent escape rate, it would not be overpowered, it would simply balance out the power differential between SWF, killer and solos.
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@XDgamer018 said:
it sounds like you have no idea how impactfull a haste boost it let me remind you of old mft a wich used to be a 3% haste boost. If soloQ got a 4% haste boost that would be the DEATH of m1 killers like pig trapper etc not because they cant loop but because theyre slow. if you notice them just hold W and pre drop pallets and they either have to break chase or waste SO MUCH TIME getting to you.
The example is arbitrary as clearly stated, so pay attention. I specifically said that the haste values should be adjusted for the 50/50 escape rate outcome. The point is not those specific values, but the scaling haste based on number of solos playing. And the only way you can be against this change is if you want the game to be unfair for solo Q players at the luxury of killers. I don't care if it's 0.01% or 10% so long as the escape/kill rates are equalized between solos, SWF and killers.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
1st of April hasn't arrived yet bro
No need to wait that long to create a balanced game. The solution is impressively simple even if it nerfs the ability of low skill killer mains to power trip in an imbalanced game state.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897260#Comment_3897260
Very on-brand for you to come here and throw in a trolling “us vs them” remark that has nothing to do with the thread topic
its the truth. I play both sides. night and day. killer is e z mode
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it should be no secret by now that BHVR has been handholding killer mains since update 6.1.
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bots are easy to kill cause they're artificial intelligence which means predictable. bad survivors perform worse than bots cause your average player just looks up what their favorite streamer is doing and copies their build/playstyle. so because they act predictably like bots they are just bots with worse mechanical skill. the actually intelligent survivors that have learned the game by themselves play better than bots.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896538#Comment_3896538
Everyone else in the topic is conspiring against you and you, of course, are correct.
I appreciate your input and would like to get more insight into your views but, alas, your profile is private T_T
Edit - was able to see your recent posts using Google - I do not think further discussion is possible.
Ah, the classic appeal to popularity fallacy. Good try, better luck next time.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896382#Comment_3896382
Yes, we know this. The problem is that scratch marks are broken even when this perk isn’t being used (you know you can see what perks are being used in postgame lobby, right)? If you actually played killer, you would understand what others in this thread are talking about
I play killer and the scratch marks work great.