dugman
dugman
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Red and Green moris aren't "Worthless". They still allow you to avoid Decisive Strike, flashlight and pallet saves when you down someone. It's obviously significantly weaker than it was but it's still an ok benefit, especially the red one.
Yellow moris, though, they're worthless. They could still use a buff or maybe be part of the base kit for all killers.
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Unless you've already got most of the killers and are just filling out your roster you should buy the killers you think are fun to play and not worry about their perks. You'll get more bang for your buck playing a killer you enjoy than you will buying a killer, not playing them, and then maybe eventually getting one of their perks on a different killer that might make them slightly better (maybe).
That being said Pop Goes the Weasel is a good perk. It's maybe the best gen slow down perk aside from the Ruin + Undying combo.
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@Rydog said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1806151#Comment_1806151
What I'm saying is, I'm not even convinced the developers have worked it out internally yet. I don't have any faith that there is a clear plan or roadmap in place, given how much time it takes for them to execute even on small changes. It's easy for them to say in a forum post that they're working on it, but the trajectory of most things of this nature, in this game, tells me it'll be like 2022 when they actually remake keys.
Also -- and not to harp on the idea too much that I've been suggesting this exact mori change for months -- some people on the forums do have strong balancing and design ideas, and if it helps inform Behaviour's brainstorming, why not? And even if not, it's still a fun exercise to figure out the possibilities for how to redesign something and make it better. That's not a waste of time in my book.
They've already confirmed their changes to key are in testing. It won't be 2022, it will probably be the next mid-chapter patch.
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@GeordieKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805764#Comment_1805764
just want to comment on the bit where you say they didnt need to release both at the same time as i disagree with that strongly
Mori and Keys in basic concept are the same they are designed to cut the games shorter than normal, regardless on how they cut games short they both do that. They are argubaly one of the most complained issues in the forums (both keys and moris) and it gets very heated at times.
so as you can see the responses to just the mori nerf and no key nerf has been very heated and made the devs look like they are survivor sided. This single sided changed would also have damage the killer community trust of the devs and that was already a fragile at the moment.
So you said theres no reason why they have to be together when actually if they released both mori and keys changes at the same time it would be recived more postivaility, build trusts, Make devs look less survivor sided and also less post on how devs always favour survivors etc
Since a fix for the Red moris was ready now, holding off on releasing it would just continue to irritate survivors who complain about that item and would do nothing one way or another to address issues with keys. There’s no good reason to hold off fixing something now that they can simply because another issue on the other side of the tracks is still present.
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@Callmehandsome said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805708#Comment_1805708
If you read closely what they have said here, like defending that keys aren't as problematic and suggesting that mories were much stronger.. you can guess that key nerf won't be neaarly as severe as mori nerfs (which are bordeline useless now lmao). You want my guess? keys work exactly the same, but less survivors can escape at once. Maybe something like purple key one survivor escape, skeleton key two survivors escape.
I’ve said elsewhere that I think the only problem with keys is that multiple people can escape with a single key use. If the key let the key user escape then the hatch closed behind them then keys would be fine.
Personally I thought the Green mori was ok as it was but if the data the devs had showed otherwise I can’t really argue against that. Red moris definitely needed a nerf either way. I don’t think Red and Green moris are dead, avoiding a possible Decisive Strike or flashlight or pallet save is still somewhat worthwhile. Yellow moris could have used a buff though.
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@Rydog said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805764#Comment_1805764
Sorry, I didn't know forums were not meant to be used for having discussions about the game and throwing out ideas. You know, like the idea I've been talking about for a year, to make moris only work on survivors who have ben hooked twice!
Also, you are being awfully charitable to the developers with that timeline you've laid out. I've seen developers execute entire system redesigns on AAA titles in a matter of months; with moris in Dead by Daylight, we're talking about a couple of meetings, a little bit of use case testing, and what I have to imagine is a relatively small amount of code change for one class of item. If this kind of extremely specific thing is taking months to fully execute on, I assure you, that is not a realistic or defensible design pipeline.
I didn’t say you’re not allowed to post your ideas, I implied you are wasting your time posting this idea because you don’t know at all what is coming down the pike soon on keys and whatever your idea is will probably be moot.
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@Rydog said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1805723#Comment_1805723
I'll believe that when I see it. They're saying moris were easier because that just necessitated a parameter change, but hey it only took four years. Until then, I will err on the side of assuming it will be productive to throw out ideas.
It didn't take them four years to change the parameter. It just took them four years to eventually review moris in depth, look at the various options they had, and decide that changing the number of hooks was the way they wanted to proceed. Once they decided that was what they wanted it probably only took them a month to get it through the testing pipeline.
Whatever they're planning for keys probably involves something more intricate, and thus more testing and development than the mori change. (And no, they don't need to release both simultaneously, these are separate features, there's no particular reason they should hold off on releasing mori changes that are ready now.)
But hey, you want to waste time throwing out ideas without knowing even what the new keys are going to do go ahead.
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The Yellow mori is totally useless. In the vast majority of cases where you down the last remaining survivor you can kill them or let them bleed out. That mori could either use a buff or just be part of the base kit for all killers.
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Peanits confirmed the key changes are on the way. They're not out now because the changes are more complex than the mori changes but whatever the devs planned for keys is already in the pipeline.
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Peanits already confirmed their key change is in the pipeline to come out soon. Whatever they're planning to do with them is already on the way.
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Without getting into how good or bad keys are, just FYI Peanits confirmed today that they have changes to keys coming very soon. (The only reason they didn't release with the mori changes is that the mori changes were fairly simple to implement.) It'll be interesting to see what the key revamp does.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1802359#Comment_1802359
im just going to leave you be if you can't understand my argument theres no point in wasting my time making it to you
I understand what you've said, I just think you're wrong.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1802282#Comment_1802282
ah yes taking my words out of context to fit your own, no im saying the players playing the twins are bad even though its more efficient its still more efficient boring and unskilled gameplay
How am I taking you out of context? I quoted you.
Also OhTofu and Tru3ta1ent and others are doing just fine with the Twins using the camping/slugging strats and they're definitely not bad players.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1801948#Comment_1801948
in terms of how well it works doesn't take into account if it takes skill or not or how fun it is to play against, twins face camping doesn't take almost any skill and isn't fun to play against, and in terms of people being bad it depends on the strategy just because you can camp efficiently doesn't mean you are suddenly good it just means your boring strategy isn't being punished accordingly
So is your argument that the Twins are bad because they're efficient at camping and players who otherwise have trouble winning can win games with them? Because that makes it sound like they're actually really effective killers.
Or are you just saying that they're good at camping but you think camping is "boring" so you don't like them? Which again, makes it sound like they're effective killers but you just don't like that playstyle.
Also, just FYI, I did say in my posts above that some survivors probably don't enjoy going against the Twins because being slugged or camped is dull.
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1801412#Comment_1801412
I remember asking this on a Q and A stream a while back and the arguament is that the survivor is taking a risk to stop it so its fair (silly to me as theres no animation, they can vault a pallet and stop it with no commitment).
Yeah I agree, that's a silly argument. Taking literally 0.25 second to tap a gen isn't really a risk.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1801429#Comment_1801429
they aren't called bad for slugging they are usually only called boring for slugging, but camping is usually called bad, and well if someone needs both im going to assume they are bad
The thing is the Twins are actually able to facecamp effectively. That's the difference here. If you facecamp with, say, Meyers or Clown or Deathslinger or Spirit you'll lose assuming the other survivors slam the gens. The Twins though can have Victor camp a hook and Charlotte chase one or two other people off gens. It turns what's normally a losing strategy for most killers into a winning one for the Twins.
Of course it's also probably a really unfun strategy to play against for the survivors since they're spending so much extra time slugged or on a hook. But in terms of how well it works for the Twins it's solid.
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As a killer main I agree that most perks are at least ok. Some are better than others but most of them are useful enough that you at least get something put of them. There are a couple of exceptions like Monstrous Shrine which are simply terrible but the majority are good enough to use if you want.
That’s not to say Dying Light is as good as Pop Goes the Weasel or Ruin, just that if you want to play with Dying Light it can do something useful during the match assuming you are playing into it. It’s not great but it’s not totally trash, it’s ok.
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@MythMage said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1801444#Comment_1801444
"Nobody calls killers bad for slugging. Some survivors call it toxic, but nobody says it's a bad strategy"
I just gave you examples where that is completely false (to be fair, no proof, just personal examples)
No you gave examples where people called you toxic. None of those are people saying you’re doing something ineffective.
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@MythMage said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1801429#Comment_1801429
I can't tell you how many times I've slugged someone for not even 20 seconds and I got called a PoS. Everytime I run Knock Out (cuz I love that perk), I get assaulted with more death threats than normal. Every time I slug for pressure because gens are flying I get called a baby killer. That is a very false statement
Reread what I said. Some people call slugging toxic, nobody says it’s ineffective.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1799838#Comment_1799838
yea mass camping and slugging, the thing that people call most killers bad for
Nobody calls killers bad for slugging. Some survivors call it toxic but nobody says it’s bad strategy.
Facecamping is usually bad strategy because while you stand at a hook the other three survivors are doing gens unimpeded. But in the Twins case you can have Victor pseudo camping something and meanwhile Charlotte is still putting pressure on the other survivors trying to do gens so it becomes a more viable strategy for them. It’s that ability to be in two places at once that uniquely makes them effective at zone defense.
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As an alternative, you could make it so that a gen will continue to regress if a survivor isn’t on it until the survivor makes a successful skill check. Once they make a skill check they can leave the gen and it won’t regress. That would eliminate the “tap a gen for a split second and it’s fine” thing but still allow survivors to stabalize a regressing gen with a few seconds of effort.
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@MythMage said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1799894#Comment_1799894
Lockers have actually never been a problem. Survivors merely existing is. The Twins just have no pressure whatsoever
That's not true. Multiple solid streamers are doing quite well with the Twins using slugging, but it's partly because currently the locker dodge doesn't work.
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In these discussions of how good or bad the Twins are it's also useful to keep in mind that right now Victor can directly hit people in lockers but that's apparently a bug (probably something accidentally left in when they were testing ways to help Victor against locker dodges.) The actual "fix" to lockers is supposedly going to be something less powerful, like Victor being able to keep the survivor in the locker for a short time. Assuming that's actually how the fix will work then the Twins will be noticeably less effective than they are currently because it will make locker dodging against Victor possible again, albeit to a lesser degree than it was on the PTB.
Without seeing the specific details of what the Victor-locker change will be it's impossible to tell how good or bad the Twins will be at that point. Depending on that change it could range all the way from almost as bad as they were on the PTB (i.e. survivors just dodge in a locker and Charlotte can't get there in time to do anything) to being just about as good as they currently are (i.e. decent killers overall if you adopt a slugging or zone defense/camping strategy). The devil is really going to be in the details of that locker fix.
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@MikaKim said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1798552#Comment_1798552
LOL, sorry you don't get it.
Perhaps try think a different way. Think about why people d/c. What ways could you encourage them to stay. Perhaps if you didn't give them the information.
It's just low hanging fruit to say 'punish them' when they're game may have just crashed.
Even though it didn’t. The great majority of disconnects are people ragequitting, either on the loading screen or after a down. DC penalties should apply at any time after the campfire ends, period.
And yes, I’m also totally behind the idea of all offerings being secret.
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Doing gens efficiently is the goal of the game. The only community issue is people having a problem with survivors who are good at it.
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@JHondo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1795122#Comment_1795122
Oh! The Ventriloquist would have been such a cooler concept than The Twins from a design perspective too, the dummy could sit on their shoulder and cosmetics could actually affect both instead of just changing Charlotte and keeping Victor looking the same no matter what the cosmetic is.
Actually I think a Ventriloquist Dummy skin for Charlotte and Victor would be pretty sweet. Victor in a tux with lines on his mouth and such to make him look more like an animated puppet and Charlotte in a tattered performer's dress (a bit like Blight's Top Hat look maybe). I'd consider getting that skin. 👍
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1795122#Comment_1795122
Behaviour would have no issue, it's the user that has the issue - they are the ones that get banned and streamers can be banned if they don't remove people from their chat if the comments go into child abuse, that's why we advise people to get out of the habit of saying "baby" and we don't use it ourselves, because he simply isn't a baby.
As Luzi says above, different platforms have different rules, Discord is particularly strict as is Twitch currently...here on the forums we have more leeway which is why we don't have a big issue, but we do remind people that Victor isn't a baby.
Sure it's the users getting banned from Twitch. When I say it's an "issue for Behaviour" I mean that a false narrative about one of its characters that can cause Twitch users and streamers to be banned is obviously a reason for concern for the developers. I'd be honestly surprised if the company's PR isn't keeping a close eye on it.
A really rough analogy would be people eating Tide Pods was a real concern for Tide, even though they clearly had no intention of them being eaten and it's the people who eat the Tide pods that suffer the consequences. Yeah it's the user's fault if they do it but it's a PR concern for Tide as well so they tried to make sure they were getting the word out not to eat them. Similarly here Behaviour understandably doesn't want to see its players and streamers get in trouble or banned for a false narrative about Victor being a kid, hence their strong push to make sure the word is out not to say he is.
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Basically I think there's a Twitch rule that prohibits depicting violence against children. Therefore Behaviour really, REALLY doesn't want to have to deal with problems on Twitch and other platforms from people mistaking Victor for a child since he honestly looks like a feral carnivorous monstrous baby from hell. That's why they're being extremely careful to emphasize Victor isn't a child and are trying to push to make sure streamers and such aren't calling him a baby, even in jest. They don't want even the implication that he's a child to be taken seriously.
I don't want to kick the devs when they're down, so to speak, but to be honest this is a problem of Behavior's own making to some degree. They could have made a killer that mechanically controls two avatars look like anything they wanted (e.g. A hunter and a wolf, a ventriloquist and an animated dummy, etc) but they went with something resembling a baby carried around by a peasant. Not much they can do about it now unfortunately, this horse is long out the barn and they're not going to redo all the lore and animations just to stop people making memes and stupid comments. I feel a little bad for them but I'm also a bit surprised they apparently didn't see these memes and jokes coming. Live and learn I guess. 🤷♂️
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Hypothetically the Entity is slowly devouring the survivors with every sacrifice. For someone to last a long, long time as a survivor they'd have to be truly bad ass.
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Remove the range restriction on Surge and make it work more like Oppression where it causes random generators to go into regression on a down with an appropriate cooldown that scales with perk rank. The range restriction on Surge is a good part of what makes it weak since most survivors will just run away from the gens when they're chased so that by the time you down them the perk will have no effect.
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Oddly I would think that you should do it the other way, injure with Charlotte and send Victor to finish them off since Victor has built in Bloodhound. Victor tracks down the injured survivor with his Bloodhound, downs them and you switch back to Charlotte for the hook or to chase someone else. If someone else comes in to try and revive the downed survivor Victor will probably detect it with Killer Instinct and you can quickly switch back to him.
That's just a guess though. I don't plan on buying the Twins at least until the locker thing is fixed.
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@Tubby_Squirrel said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1778470#Comment_1778470
*if a locker happens to be near by and they can get to it in time.
Which is most of the time I think. Lockers are pretty common (if they weren't Huntress would be in trouble.)
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1780196#Comment_1780196
That'd be perfect. I don't think blight needs a balance pass anyways, just needs fov fixed.
Yeah I doubt Blight would get changed much. They'll probably just tweak his perks and add-ons a bit mostly.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1779901#Comment_1779901
Yea that's what i think too, and that would mean clown's rework would be delayed till next next midchapter, but what got me confused is that pyramid head got midchapter balance patch after 3 months he went live
Actually Clown's rework could be in the same midchapter patch as Blight's. For instance they did Bubba and Billy's reworks in the same midchapter patch, they could be doing something where they release Clown and Blight's revamps at the same time.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1779488#Comment_1779488
I'm kinda confused. Isn't three months the time for another killer to release? I thought it was like, new chapter -> mid-chapter in 1.5 months -> new chapter in 1.5 months
Right, but I’m assuming that they’re doing rebalance patches mid-chapter versus in a new chapter where their main focus is on a new killer and survivors. So it’s probably New Chapter Killer, then prior chapter’s killer’s rebalancing path in the midchapter, then a new Chapter with another new killer, then rebalancing the prior killer, etc. So that would make Blight’s rebalance patch be the midchapter patch after the Twins release.
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@[Deleted User] said:
i wouldn't put your hopes on ruindying staying like this, i just have an intuition that devs will obliterate this combo someday, and that day is probably soon. it's a matter of time
I don't know if they're going to change Undying or not, but in terms of timing they said they've got a formalized review process for new killers that started with Pyramid Head. Pyramid Head's balance tweaks were pushed out in a mid-chapter patch three months after he went live. Blight was released in September so my guess is the mid-chapter patch after the upcoming Twins chapter will have Blight's balance pass which would include his perks (Dragon's Grip, Hex: Blood Favor and Hex: Undying)
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@JBWarrior said:
Why do killers complain about ds when they get ruin they get undying ruin? It’s hard to argue nerving ds and not undying
What does Decisive Strike have to do with Undying?
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I'll get the Twins eventually but I'll wait until they implement the locker change for Victor. Without that all a survivor has to do is duck in a locker and he's out of luck.
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This is one reason I like Deerstalker. It completely negates the sound issue and saves up to 10-15 seconds sometimes looking for a dying survivor who crawled to a hiding spot or that I accidentally forgot where I downed. Honestly, if you find yourself frequently getting irritated finding slugged survivors then Deerstalker is a great fill-in-the-fourth-slot perk.
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I definitely don’t think it needs to be a hex. Hexes should be more powerful than normal perks and this isn’t even that good an effect to begin with.
If it does stay a Hex, then take away the range limit. That way at least the killer will have a chance of taking advantage of a pallet being blocked on a different tile when the survivor they hit runs away.
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NOED isn’t actually stronger than Haunted Grounds to be honest. If anything in the current climate of survivors being hyper-aware of totems I think Haunted Grounds might even be better, it’s pretty much guaranteed to go off early in the match and help build momentum with one or two quick downs. And yet I’ve never had a survivor complain about Haunted Grounds but NOED is a salt mine.
I think the main reason is that if you are downed early in the match by Haunted Grounds the game isn’t over so you feel like you can come back. But if you are downed by NOED after the gens are done you go from thinking you are about to escape to being hooked and it’s a more jarring feeling of defeat. It’s really just loss aversion, a feeling that you have lost a win you “had”, which makes people angrier about the loss.
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I nominated No Man’s Sky for that Labor of Love category. That game took a real beating at launch but they really stuck with it and it’s much better now.
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I’m holding off at least until they implement the change to how Victor interacts with lockers. The dev blog mentioned that won’t be in the initial release but is coming later. Without that fix a survivor can just duck in a locker and there’s nothing Victor can do about it.
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1776900#Comment_1776900
I've always thought it should be a timed action with skillchecks. Making it RNG based can either hurt the killer or help them tremendously with no input from either side.
I agree, I'm not sure why they didn't just make it similar to a Heal check where it takes, say, 10 seconds with a skill check that might speed or slow it.
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1776890#Comment_1776890
Yeah but these don't really mean much. There's way too many variables to consider. What add ons were used, what map were they on, were the teams good or bad (one bad survivor can snowball a whole match). The fact that Micheal is next to Spirit or Legion being above Huntress should speak volumes.
FYI the person I replied to was complaining that the devs hadn't recently stats in a long time. I was posting this recent chart since they apparently hadn't seen it.
Those variables average out over thousands of games. For instance all the killers will face good or bad teams with the same probabilities, none of those statistics are going to be significantly skewed by one of the killers having "worse survivors" than another. Similarly for maps, all the killers have the same maps in the same ratios when you look at a large number of games.
That's not to say the kill rates in that chart are the full story. Nurse is the lowest kill rate but that's because she's by far the hardest killer to learn. (Similarly Blight is a little easier to pick up initially than Nurse but has a very high skill ceiling as well.) And I would argue that some killers may be particularly good against average survivors but not as good against top tier survivors. For example, I suspect Pig's Stealth and head traps work best against survivors who don't have great situational awareness and who don't understand some of the subtleties of how the traps work, which I think could explain why Pig is fourth on the Red Rank chart but second on the All Rank chart (she's getting a boost from her performance against mid-rank survivors but falls behind a bit against red ranks.)
So yes, this chart is only a partial story, but it's not meaningless.
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@YoshisCookies said:
isnt it silly injured survivors who step on traps can still escape?
why does he still start with 1 trap base without addons why cant he start with 2..?
this killer is fun but plagued with so many issues lol
Broadly if a survivor could never escape from a trap it could lead to a possible issue where a killer just leaves a survivor in a trap the whole game while they chase everybody else. Survivors need to be able to escape a trap after a bit to avoid that.
That being said I’m not really a fan of how survivors currently can get out of a trap just randomly really quickly. Sometimes they hit a trap and are out in just a few seconds, it’s kind of annoying.
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What killers do you like to play?
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@MikaKim said:
The devs won't even post their kill metrics, because after the last one they owned up to their '2escape, 2 kill' and FINALLY had to give something back to survivors because killers were well above 2 kills at that point. The collective killer community absolutely NERD raged at that time and so the devs folded like wet paper.
The point being, don't expect any legitimate push back on OP killers.
You missed the charts they showed a month or two ago. Here’s the kill rates for games with a red rank killer. (The kill rates are higher across the board than the All Ranks chart since this Red Rank Killer chart includes games that had lower rank survivors.)
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My favorite killers are Clown, Freddy and Doc. They’re all 115% movement killers with basic attacks and an ability that helps get hits in a chase. I just like that style of play the best I think.
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If I didn't enjoy the game it wouldn't be my fourth most played game on Steam.