crogers271
crogers271
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@VampireHimbo said:
I don't want to be pessimistic, but chances keep increasing to see things like Rick and Morty being chased by Ariana Grande. It was already embarrassing to see Nicolas Cage added, especially due to all the meta stuff involved in his character and the advertising surrounding him.
I'm not the type of person who cares about the lore of a PVP casual game but when the premise "killers from horror franchises chasing survivors" devolves into DnD literal who floating bald man chasing elves playing lute it gets silly.
Lots of people are gonna go "it was never a horror game" as they hypocritically cheer when an actual horror franchise icon like Alien is added (or when Behavior stops making inspired by manga killers and instead makes scary killers like The Unkown).
What's sadder is that not a single soul is gonna get interested in the game due to a DnD collab, people who like DnD like RPGs not asymmetrical chase games. There's a reason chapters like Resident Evil are a success and bring a lot of new players.
I don't want to be pessimistic, but chances keep increasing to see things like Rick and Morty being chased by Ariana Grande.Okay, now I want this. The Wicked tie in is going to be amazing.
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@board24jason123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3727656#Comment_3727656
there’s no complaining about my argument here in expressing what can I do against a swf all I’m looking for is a advice
Well SWF is generally going to be stronger than soloq. It's still the same game in most respects, just harder.
Some minor things you can try:
I like to respect/not respect pallets against different players. This will usually get me some free hits because one player will say I'm playing in a certain way and another contradicts it.
SWFs generally play to protect each other. Look for the person coming to protect when you are in chase.
Most SWFs are friends and usually a combination of skill levels. If someone is trying to bait chase, don't give into it.
The SWF will probably have a gameplan. This generally makes them harder to play overall, but it does give you something to anticipate. Are they going for saves, rushing gens, body blocking? Try to anticipate what they are doing based off their overall playstyle.
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I learned autodidact can be amazing perk if you get skill checks early in the game.
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I'd say I'm escaping less overall, but the difference might just be random chance.
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Deathgarden, another BHVR game, suffered from this in their first release.
Having an asym game where one side fights the killer is possible, but making it so they can escape or fight is too difficult. It creates balance issues, especially in a game with solos vs teams. It causes the soloq to potentially split their strategies, while the team can come into the game with a clear strategy and focused on that from the start.
Creating multiple possible wins means that people will soon optimize the best course. TCM suffered from this, where the game starts off silly and fun, but it doesn't take long before people have mapped out the ideal routes to take.
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@Akeeno said:
doing gens is easy, and kinda boring, the chase is the heart of the game right? so why dont we make it so gens cant be worked on right away, and need a type of resource before repairing, could be gears, gasoline, power cords, etc.
some gens would just need 1-2 requirements and survivors need to scavenge the map for those parts, some could spawn in basement, or corners of the map, near lockers, and take the resource back to the gen, but since it would take time to look for and find the parts doing the actual gen would take maybe 20-30 seconds. (numbers can be adjusted) the parts would have multiple spawn points so killers cant protect the parts.
more items could be introduced to help out, or reworked. maps can show potential locations, keys could unlock a part behind a cage, etc. the goal is to make survivor feel like actual survival, while the killer is doing their thing. is this too drastic of a change?
or it could even be a game mode. thoughts?
Depending on the design, you have two possible problems.
Parts spawn randomly: The game becomes heavy RNG. Maybe the survivors find just the parts they need on the first try, in which case they likely win easily. Or maybe they get unlucky and don't find the part for quite some time, resulting in an easy killer win.
I don't have a problem with lots of random chance elements, but that might go too far.
Parts spawn in predictable ways: You get the TCM problem were it looks exciting at first, then people just perfect the possible paths. Then the games loses its luster for a lot of the player base.
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To my understanding, BHVR once did test the idea of secondary objectives and did not think it worked.
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I came in here to be sympathetic, but sometimes you lose the game. Are you saying that you should never have a game were you 'just' get 4 hooks (not counting the 3 after gens done which is still very much a part of the game)?
Sometimes the other team is better. Sometimes a player makes mistakes. Sometimes you get unlucky. If the worst example is getting only 4 hooks against a SWF, the killer seems to be in a really solid position.
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It's under review in the bug report section, so I think it's a bug. I've had this happen to me a few times, both as killer and survivor, which puts a damper on the whole shuffle mode.
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I'll also jump in as a person who doesn't want voice chat. I like the uniqueness of soloq and not nessecarily knowing what the other survivors are doing. I probably enjoyed the game more pre-HUD, the mystery element of what other survivors where up to was a great game mechanic.
Unfortunately, for balance reasons they're going to have to bring them closer together. Voice chat isn't necessary. A few more bits of info in the HUD would go a long way.
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We are talking about two different things here - game design and balance.
On game design - this seems to be the idea that the game would be better if the killer's win condition was different. Something like 'get to 8 hooks and win, eliminations are impossible'. I feel that would take out a lot of the game's enjoyment. Tunneling sucks, but being on death hook adds a lot of tension to the game.
On game balance - here we seem to be talking about MMR and how we match up people. Without massive game changes I think balancing around the win condition is the only thing that makes sense.
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This reminds me of Sid Meier's observation: "given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of video games."
In this scenario, the desire to try and maximize an arbitrary number leads to one player having no agency, one player standing behind a rock picking up and dropping an item, and the other running around looking for that rock. It's hard to believe anyone is having fun in that scenario.
The answer is for devs to never give those options in the first place, but BHVR even this long into development seems to keep hoping that players will play in a certain way for 'fun' despite the evidence of what actually happens.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3720422#Comment_3720422
I haven't seen the stream so I'm only getting infomation about it from here. I figured it was the Game Mode but then it was stated it was for customs. So I thought it was a modifier.
So, if we are back to it being a Game Mode. Where is my Kill With Friends option?
So, if we are back to it being a Game Mode. Where is my Kill With Friends option?But it has that? 2:04:40 if you want the time stamp of stream where they say this will happen and allow you to team up with another person to play killer. Is there some comment elsewhere saying it can't happen?
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Because there are different rules for games and discussion forums?
The reason there are restriction on profanity in forums and end game chat is not that profanity is inherently bad, but that appropriateness is based on the place and context of its use.
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The undead lich is ugly? That sounds like a compliment to the art team.
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I just got my key, hadn't tried earlier. For a brief second it said 'no keys remaining' then it popped up my key.
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Nothing about that is new, 4 person head on squads are a thing (bully squads). As far as I'm aware, BHVR doesn't have any issue with it or plan to adjust.
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Jeff Probst in an ultimate swerve (for those who don't know: host and producer of the reality show Survivor)
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D&D (or DnD as they now prefer) is very popular and I've been playing it for over 35 years, but its never been a great license. DnD is much more of a toolkit for how to play a game. While there are 'official' D&D characters and stories, no one really uses those. Most people use the system to create their own stories. Even if they do use an official story, the important characters are still the players.
So there's nothing like Laurie or Myers for players to be excited about. I'm actually curious what type of characters they'll pull together for survivor and killer. There are tons of options, but nothing that really clearly stands out. There have been lots of Dungeons and Dragons licenses, but I don't think it really translates into sales.
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Tier lists for killers will always be hard because is it at the killer at their best, their base, or some combination therein. With Otz its worth noting that Plague is one of his better killers, so not surprising he has a killer he happens to be really good with higher.
@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718192#Comment_3718192
I do agree with that.
There was one build I had that had a 75%+ kill rate which consisted of Forced Penance/Starstruck/STBFL/NOED with Trapper Bag and Makeshift Wrap, but the anti-facecamping feature killed it. And that was admittedly cheap.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718197#Comment_3718197
It's not just Otz. I use him as an example because everyone's familiar with his work, but a lot of these opinions are held by the DBD community at large.
I don't even disagree with his individual takes in and of themselves - "plague is just okay, but can be really good with the right build" or "Myers is weak, but he can be OP with the right build" - so much as the fact that Plague gets better treatment than Myers on his list because the DBD collective consciousness dictates that Myers has to be lower than Plague, even if it means applying different criteria when ranking either killer.
I'm not necessarily arguing that Myers should be higher than Plague on a tier list taking each killer's general strength and consistency into accound, but it's clear that we're just applying different standards to different killers based less on their actual potential strength and more on what broadly-defined "category" they fit into.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718201#Comment_3718201
Yeah. what I gathered from looking into Japanese DBD players is that their strategy is much worse, but their technique is much better. Western players would do well to study their emphasis on self-reliance and microcounterplay against different killer powers (and Japanese players might do well to play more aggressively).
Also, Self-Care is still a good perk when combined with Botany Knowledge. I've had roughly a 50% escape rate for a couple of weeks now as a solo queue survivor, which, for me, is very high, and those two perks have been a staple. I don't have to bother someone completing an objective to get healed, and it's almost as fast (even faster if I don't have to run around looking for everyone), I get extra time in chases when I would otherwise go down for being injured, and Botany doubles as one of the better general support perks in the game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718207#Comment_3718207
Yeah, I've definitely run into some Trappers who were able to just inexplicably steamroll everyone even though we were ostensibly playing pretty well.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718210#Comment_3718210
I already addressed some of that in this post above, but worth noting that this tier list is specifically geared towards general play, not tournament rules (which are apparently very killer-sided); I know this for a fact since the point came up in the Reddit thread I stole the tier list from.
Also, Otz specifically lists one build that is the entire reason for Plague's A-tier placement, and it's one that changes Plague's basekit as drastically as Tombstone Piece does for Michael.
I think it was something like Iri Seal, Tinkerer, Deadlock, and some other stuff, turning her into a killer who has her power active basically the entire game and knows where and when to target survivors at all times, making for a very different playstyle. He also mentions Prayer Tablet Fragment as being good, which is another perk that completely changes Plague's playstyle.
Plague is not as versatile as Myers, but what versatility she does have is specifically used to justify her high-level placement.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3718215#Comment_3718215
I have mixed feelings about him. A lot of his basekit is pretty horrible, but his real strength comes from his mobility. I don't think he's really very strong though, but I almost exclusively play Pallet Freddy (weak) or, on occasion, Black Box Freddy (only strong if you get lucky).
He did used to be a lot better than he is now, though.
Yeah. what I gathered from looking into Japanese DBD players is that their strategy is much worse, but their technique is much better. Western players would do well to study their emphasis on self-reliance and microcounterplay against different killer powers (and Japanese players might do well to play more aggressively).Well, everything is different so its hard to evaluate. Not only does the comp scenes have different rules, the way pub matches are played look unique. When I've watched Asian twitch streamers I've been surprised how frequently the killer will get a 1k because the survivors just open the gate and leave instead of trying a group save. Whether getting a 4e is actually a worthwhile goal or not is totally a community dependent decision, and how the community plays it out really changes strategy aspects.
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@miniwengsel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3717698#Comment_3717698
I agree, that perks shouldnt become basekit (exept Corrupt), but because they already added basekit BT and had planed to make Unbreakeble basekit, what rlly would be to mutch to counter slugging, this is why I started this disguession, because its interesting to think about the worst thing they could be doing.
Short why I think Corrupt should become base, because its a perk, is good on weak killers and does very litle to top tier Killers. Also most Killer games can be easly lost just because the first chase wasnt going so well. As Killer you have the most stress at the start, because four gens getting worked on potentialy and is the first chase to long three gens are finished. Who was long chases the most? M1 Killers and they need the time at the start. Blight would start a chase like 10 seconds into the match and can get a quick down if he is good and at this point Corrupt would be gone cause of the down.
But you wouldn't need to make Corrupt basekit to do that. You could just add a mechanic make gens go slower for the first X amount of time of the match and/or until something happens (most likely a down). You could even structure it so that someone like Trapper gets more early game slowdown than Blight (though I don't BHVR would ever approach that idea).
That's one of the problems with making perks basekit to address problems: if there is a problem with the base game, it should be fixed. With basekit BT the fix was just that there was no other better way to address the complaint then what that perk did.
Basekit unbreakable was about a substantial reimagining of the game. It wasn't just to address slugging, the primary goal I think was to speed up how pointless and boring the end game can become in killer wins. None of it went the way I think they expected, but I think they'll try it again with game modes.
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Pretty much any perk becoming basekit would be unhealthy, there's only a handful of perks that could even be conceived of as healthy as basekit additions.
I trying to think of a perk that wouldn't just unbalance the game toward one side or another., but would totally destroy the game flow. Like no way you could even balance around the idea of such a perk being basekit because if it always existed it would undermine the way the game works. Autodidact would wipe out lots of other abilities, Sprint Burst basekit would effectively negate lots of other exhaustion perks, Blood Warden would mean survivors would never stick around once the exit gates are open, Franklin's Demise would mean everyone would just run toolboxes and burn through them immediately, lightborn would make flashlights/flashbangs pointless.
I'll go with Franklin's Demise as it would make many things in the game pointless.
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I'd wait to see if there is a sale during the anniversary and you might be able to get both.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3717055#Comment_3717055
Then by this logic you think we should instead reward playing bad or just give it free? Since you're not wanting it to be a win more thing.
As jesterkind has said, its only one element of the game. The strategy element of which perks are chosen is also important.
But if a perk is powerful it should have some other requirement beyond just doing the main game objective. Boons need to be set up, hexes can be cleansed, pain res requires spreading hooks and deciding whether taking the time to travel to a pain res hook is worth it, grim embrace spreading hooks, etc.
So the logic is very far from 'playing bad', but if a perk has a powerful effect there should be risks/consequences to using it.
A perk can be easy to use, that's a strategic trade off, but in turn it should not be that powerful.
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To answer OP: going off the last AMA anything and some forum posts, this is a low priority issue for BHVR. I have no idea why. I think there are multiple, simple easy solutions and that this would be one of the biggest improvements they could make to the game, but I don't think its going to get changed.
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Easy can mean multiple things. In one sense its easy to walk 20 miles a day in the sense that it doesn't take any particular skill, in another its hard because its not fun and can be painful depending on your physical healthy.
On a different note, if you're struggling to get hooks, why would you have pop in your builds?
@Blueberry said:
If people thinking getting hooks isn't skillful and is just the game progressing I'd love to hear what criteria they would classify for the killer as requiring skill that can be a metric for a perk activation. If it's not hooks what is? That's about as skillful as it gets, especially in terms of something actually measurable for a perk activation.
Also, this notion of "It's free, you just get it for playing the game". Could literally be applied to like 90% of survivor meta perks as well, so I don't know why this is being used as a point.
When it comes down to it, if you play well you get Pop value, if you play bad you don't. That isn't free, it's good design. "just progressing the game and doing what you're supposed to as killer" isn't free.
When it comes down to it, if you play well you get Pop value, if you play bad you don't. That isn't free, it's good design. "just progressing the game and doing what you're supposed to as killer" isn't free.The bigger issue on the 'good design' here is the win harder aspect of a perk like Pop. Getting hooks is the goal, having a reward on top of it shouldn't be necessary (though its kind of baked into the game). It would be like if in soccer/football when a team scored a goal they got to bring an extra player on the field. Getting a sizable reward for what you where supposed to do to win the game, especially when that reward is completely free if you accomplish the thing you were supposed to do, leads to lopsided games.
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Anything you do that reduces at least 2.5% of the gen progress counts as a regression event and counts toward your total. Kicks, surge, eruption, pain res. Ruin doesn't, because its less then 2.5%. You have 8 regression events, the percent regressions doesn't matter as long as each of those events is above 2.5% (it's really hard to get to regression limit outside of very particular builds and playstyles).
Kicking a gen reduces it by 5% of the total progress.
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The fact that the killer carried you somewhere I'd think would increase the chance of unsportsmanlike/griefing, but generally speaking that's not something they penalize in any way for.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715218#Comment_3715218
They absolutely do. Some of my favorite heroes in Dota have been tweaked to remove things that were too powerful in lower level play, and I'm certain I've seen balance posts from Riot talking about champion balance across different skill levels.
I really want to thank you for bringing this up. I don't know these games and have always presumed when people said they just balance around the top that was what they did. You brought this up and so I decided to look into it.
It's a little dated, but here is a whole video where one of the former heads of Riot gives a speech to other game developers about the importance of balancing for all levels (kind of boring btw for anyone who tries to watch as its a lecture style to game creators) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii_Q4OCoHvU -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715207#Comment_3715207
I'm not familiar enough with those games to really comment, but based on what I do know of other games, I'm willing to bet they absolutely make changes aimed at lower skill levels too.
Its more of a thing that none of them are as asymmetrical as DbD. If a weapon or class is overpowered, changing it changes it for everyone. So you can just look at one sector of the player base to determine if its a problem.
DbD isn't like that because of the problem with the differing skill floors in the game. Killer is much more straightforward to start, meaning the balance of the game is inherently skewed. On top of this one side of the game can add in SWF and comms which is an option the other side has no access to.
Additionally, the argument suffers from the fact that just because one approach might be successful, doesn't mean its the only approach that is successful. DbD is a wildly successful game after all, so using the same logic if a game did balance just around the top, it would be fair to ask why don't they balance around all skill levels, like DbD does.
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@bornagain234 said:
I dont get bhvr logic. They nerf everything, a few perks get used, nerf those release new powerful perks over and over. Then they wonder why the few they havent nerfed yet get used.
That's the actual logic I believe. BHVR wants a continually changing game, not something static even if it was balanced. I don't think they are surprised a meta emerges, I think they actually want that to happen, and when it becomes common change it to something else.
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Solid update. Even the changes I disagree with are pretty minor, looks good for the game overall.
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The benefits presume you pull it off. If you spend 50 seconds on it and the killer interrupts you, it begins to degrade (not to mention you give a free hit in the basement). Even at 1 charge at second it will wipe out. Those 50 seconds into a gen would degrade a lot slower and require the killer to spend time to kick it.
As a gamble though, now it can pay off where before it was just awful. Broken the whole match is still really harsh.
As a killer, if I was offered the trade of one survivor permanently broken, that survivor loses a perk slot, they can't do anything for the first 75 to 90 seconds of the match, but in return BNP on all the gens, I'd probably take that. It's not even counting the possibility there that I get the interrupt in basement.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715129#Comment_3715129
No, I did answer that question. How do you stop from losing time while hooking? You make the time investment for hooking pay for itself by making sure you get the full benefits of hooking.
It's not just overcoming losing time by "playing good", it's understanding the time dynamics of the trial and what time isn't actually wasted. Yeah, three survivors are doing gens while you're hooking - that's normal. That's not relevant to your gameplan because some generator repair is always going to get done, you can't consider that wasted time because it was gonna get spent by the survivors somehow, they're players with agency.
(It's also not guaranteed, but that'd be getting too into hyper specific examples of specific perks and specific killers, so I'll leave that there)
Examples like the Garden of Joy break this because the other time investment - the actual chase portion - can take too long due to unbalanced amounts and placement of resources. If the chase is a reasonable time, though, the time spent on hooking isn't wasted, it's invested. Those two things are meaningfully separate and it is relevant to this conversation, because different perks govern this.
If the problem is that chases take too long, you'd run chase and info perks, not necessarily slowdown perks. This is part of how I'd argue against this idea that the killer role "doesn't really work without slowdown", because of course it does- you just have to understand how killer efficiency functions and that some progression of the survivor objective is inevitable. Being efficient doesn't mean stopping it entirely, it just means giving yourself time to progress your objective.
Obviously, slowdown perks make this easier and there's nothing wrong with them existing, but they should be considered a way to boost your basekit slowdown from macro play, not a replacement for it.
Liked your posts in this thread, specifically wanted to comment on one thing:
That's not relevant to your gameplan becausesomegenerator repair is always going to get done, you can't consider that wasted time because it was gonna get spent by the survivors somehow, they're players with agency.I think this is a great point and highlights a big disagreement on what the game is supposed to be. Both sides have different objectives and the goal is not to stop the other side from completing their objective, but to complete yours before they can finish theirs.
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715147#Comment_3715147
Being fun for the entire playerbase is the only goal, and being balanced is the way you get there most of the time- obviously there's other factors at play.
The fact of the matter is, you can never ignore any section of the playerbase. You have to keep all of them in mind for every change and make sure you've got a good amount of changes that'll affect each skill range positively, where applicable. If that sounds nightmarishly difficult, welcome to game design.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715137#Comment_3715137
This is a great example. Would there be anything wrong with that change? Nope!
As long as other changes come out that would more positively affect lower skill levels and not affect high levels. In other words, as long as it's part of an overall mindset of balancing for the entire game, not just the top. "Trickle down" doesn't work, direct actions will always be needed. All skill ranges are always important and none can be overlooked.
This is a great example. Would there be anything wrong with that change? Nope!The shack example is a crazy one on the idea that it means 'balance to the top'. It seems like a perfect example of balance for everyone or balance to the middle.
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@blastea said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3712974#Comment_3712974
Yeah with potential I usually bring a toolbox sometimes brand new part and I only run it when I'm playing with at least one other person. The first two builds are solo. I was thinking I could maybe sub out potential for maybe overzealous despite it's risk of just being useless under bad luck but it's meant as kind of a fun build anyway.
I never thought about your suggestion with We'll Make It thought it sounds like a good idea. Should I put Deja Vu somewhere in my first build? I feel like I should have some type of gen perk in a solo build but I'm not sure if its worth subbing out OTR or Adren for. I have around 800 hours so my map knowledge is decent but not good enough for me to feel very comfortable subbing out Windows just yet. Thanks for the tips :)
I really dislike Potential Energy, but it works a lot better with a team when you can keep eyes on a killer.
Overzealous can be fun and if you can find a hex totem it can be cool to see the gens fly. You could drop lithe there if you're comfortable playing stealth because the idea is that you don't ever want to be in chase and lose overzealous. You could either take inner healing if you do get caught, or a perk like distortion to help with stealth.
Alternatively you could keep lithe and drop prove + potential and add overzealous and dance with me to maximize your chances of getting away.
If you're looking for fun, the gen focused builds with Blastmine and/or wiretap can be really interesting. It can be cool to stun the killer and having wiretap up and knowing exactly where the killer is can be entertaining and also help out the team.
Should I put Deja Vu somewhere in my first build?I like Deja, but in part its because I've used it so much I've just gotten in the habit of having it. The increased gen speed is not that powerful, but you're going to get value out of it every game.
I have around 800 hours so my map knowledge is decent but not good enough for me to feel very comfortable subbing out Windows just yet.I only have a few hundred more hours than you, but I was never a windows player, which I think helped me learn the maps more quickly.
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I presume soloq.
Build 2: If I'm running Kindred I like to pair it with We'll Make It. With Kindred I go for hook rescues a lot and this also lets me know where any other injured teammates are that I can run to heal.
Build 3: Potential Energy? If this is your gen focused build I'd pair it with a toolbox and either streetwise or built to last. Or you could throw something like botany on there, being you are planning to pair up because of Prove running into injured survivors is more frequent.
Lithe is the easiest of the exhaustion perks to use and get good value out of. Balanced landing being situational is the reason you can get more value out of it.
Fun builds - Depends on what you enjoy. You've got some chase focused builds which is what people tend to enjoy the most. I'm fine playing support, so I'll usually run a mix of healing and gen focused perks.
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@Krazzik mentions this already but:
If you don't want players to do something, just don't let them do it. You're adding a lot of things to solve a problem that doesn't need to exist in the first place. BHVR could easily penalize/stop people from hook suiciding, they've decided not to.
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@ChrissyG88 said:
I'm a survivor main so don't often play killer. When I do play killer, I main as Doctor, mainly because when I was first starting out the game, I found him to be the most difficult to play against, both because I wasn't used to successfully completing 100% skill checks under normal circumstances, but also because of the static charge which revealed my location when I was stealthily urban evading around the map like the noob I was back then.
When I started watching DBD Youtubers and their Killer tier lists, I was surprised to see that Nurse and Blight were at the top of almost every list, because they seemed pretty awful when I went up against them.
I recently played a game as Trapper (who is often very near the bottom of every tier list) to complete a daily ritual, and because my killer MMR is still really low, I'm up against low MMR survivors. They kept running into every trap and I would have completed the ritual in that one game even if I needed to catch 10 survivors in bear traps.
I next played a game as Spirit, who I had only unlocked recently, and tried to complete her Daily ritual. As a survivor at an above-average MMR, I find Spirit the hardest to play against. But as a low-MMR killer, I found it extremely difficult and it took me 3 games with her to complete that ritual, only getting 1 kill across those 3 games.
So, for those who are still fairly new to the game, or those who still remember when they were babies in DBD, who do you think are the best killers at low MMRs to both play with and against?
For me, it's:
- Doctor
- Cenobite
- Wraith
- Trapper
- Myers
- Ghostface
- Legion
If I understand the topic, its what killer is strongest when both the survivors and killer are new? I'd go Wraith, when I started the game Wraith seemed grossly overpowered.
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There are a ton of variables to the question, a few that cross my mind.
1: Which chase of the game is it? A quick chase early in the game swings the game massively in the killers favor, a long chase after a survivor is eliminated is not that hurtful.
2: How many pallets does the survivor burn? If a survivor has a long chase to start the game, but burns all the good pallets, it can balance out. I'd say this is one of the biggest variables because I've been in plenty of games that have looked survivor sided and turned in the late mid game because the killer was hitting/downing survivors so quickly the survivors had no time to do gens.
3: What did the survivor bring? Survivors who have chase specific builds should expect longer chases. If all survivors have chase builds this isn't necessarily a problem for the killer, the danger for the killer is if they target the survivor who brought a chase build and the rest have gen focused builds.
4: How is the killer playing? Defending, spreading hits, using slowdown, all change up the equation.
5: What exactly are we balancing toward? I think tunneling out the first survivor that is found is a problem, but also think its unrealistic to balance the game around the idea that in an even match the killer can go for two hooking everyone before going for an elimination and still have a good chance of winning.
6: How much time do we have between chases? This would be survivors playing stealth or dragging the killer to the other side of the map.
All that said, probably 30 to 50 seconds is the mid range for chases.
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But I'm glad this is where the conversation has gone, because it's revealed now that the problem isn't survivors weaponising DS, the problem is that you want to punish someone for annoying you and DS stops you from doing it. That's not the same thing, at all, even a little bit.I think this is a big part of it. There seems to be a stance that once a chase begins between killer and survivor, the other 3 survivors should just stay out of it.
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@jesterkind said:
I've seen a fair amount of discussion around the forums lately about whether or not survivors weaponising DS is a problem, or how to fix the problem of survivors weaponising DS, and rather than toss a response out into the sea of answers in a thread that isn't really about what I have to say anyway, I figured I'd make my own post.
My problem with these threads is that the central claim is rarely examined, so let's do that here. Can survivors currently weaponise DS?
No.
They can certainly try, they can run directly into your face and start trying to bodyblock, but they can't actually force it anymore. The best they can do is try and make themselves enticing bait, but it's always on the killer to fall for it, and the killer can always avoid eating the DS.
If you're in this position, the counterplay is extremely simple: Ignore them. If they're in a tight doorway, hit them, then ignore them. That's it. Weaponising DS no longer exists.
Worst case scenario you're slugging one survivor and chasing a second, which is obviously more in your favour than if that first survivor went to go do generators somewhere- and that's the worst case scenario.
Nice thread, liked how you defended the arguments throughout.
I think the simple point is that survivors can run in and body block the killer with or without DS. Everything about whether protection hits give a lot of time or a little amount of time to the chased survivor is a moot point - the survivor can body block regardless of whether they have DS or not. Endurance can force the killer to eat through two hits, DS can only force one.
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Broadly, it leads to tunneling.
More specifically, the game already has a problem with win harder perks. To give an example using sports: imagine if in soccer when a team scored a goal they also got to bring an extra player onto the field. Scoring the goal was the objective of the game, giving a reward on top of that is unnecessary that would just create lopsided results.
That's what would happen if you had a reward for killing survivors. Not only is it the goal, it already gives you substantial benefits, giving more would become extremely unbalanced.
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Every time DBD takes a dip in player count its the end, but the fact the game saw a 10k increase in players for March is not really talked about. Not seeing a 20k player drop on steam charts, looks like 10k to me (unless you mean peak player counts, which is not really a great metric).
The mass BP event looks to have been popular, brought in some more players, and now its returning to normal. The bugs in the latest release likely are having an impact as well.
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I want to leave the game, I can DC and be punished for that or I can die off hook and not be punished for that. If you remove second option, players would simply alt+tab, because why not?The devs use this logic as well, and at least based on my games I don't think its true. When I see a person trying to sacrifice themselves and I/someone else rescues them, sometimes they run right to the killer, but lots of times they go back to playing the game. Even if this only fixes the issue sometimes, that's a lot better than never.
@Marioneo said:
in this video Otz calls out Survivors who give up for every small inconvenience its gotten so worse 9/10 games has someone Dc or give up on hook and Devs aware of broken maps and exploited Perks but refuse to killswitch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kqWbP64FX4
Its time that Devs make drastic changes to the game to stop players from ruining matches everyone is sick of this.
Developers should make it so taking a chance on hook no longers drains the time on hook you just get 2 4% chances and then it disables or take a chance removed in general. 2nd stage on Hook Struggle is removed.
Developers should make it so taking a chance on hook no longers drains the time on hook you just get 2 4% chances and then it disables or take a chance removed in general. 2nd stage on Hook Struggle is removed.Agree on the second stage. I'm not sure why there exists two free unhooks attempts in your scenario instead of removing it entirely outside AFC or a perk. I've think that it should not exist for the first two people hooked, then can be normal after that, and it would correct a lot of gameplay issues
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If it happened during EGC you're fine. You're allowed to body block a survivor in once EGC has started to ensure a kill when the timer runs out.
You're not allowed to body block survivors in corners before that. I would guess 30 seconds is not something they would take action over, but I'm not aware of any timer on the issue. Below is a comment I pulled from a mod.
@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3336743#Comment_3336743
In your example - how can the survivor that you are body blocking progress the game? Can they complete gens, are they in dying state - if neither of those things apply you are holding that player hostage in the game.
Holding the game hostage is something we've answered many times on this forum, I am sure that you will find many comments by myself and Peanits addressing the situation - and those are official comments. And in answer to your question, yes blocking someone so that they cannot do anything to progress the game is against game rules - if they are not in dying state (bleedout), EGC has not started (countdown timer for end of game), on a hook (again hook timer will end) - there is nothing they can do to progress that game, so the player who is preventing them taking part in the game is at fault here. -
@OmegaXII said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FCJLVTXQM1W3/image.png
I knew Distortion is quite common nowadays, so that's why I also brought Gearhead to hopefully burn through all the stacks.
But guessed what, it was a map of Hawkins, and I only saw the Auras THREE TIMES in the entire game. Both of them were Claudette, so I was forced to tunnel her out.
So here comes the question. Isn't Distortion a little bit too strong? Three of my perks get denied by a single Survivor perk, just like that.
PS: I kinda hate slowdown perks, so I always go for perks that provide information. But if that information can be denied this easily, it really does make sense why every Killer goes for Slowdown perks :(
So here comes the question. Isn't Distortion a little bit too strong? Three of my perks get denied by a single Survivor perk, just like that.And if you had been a killer with no aura read perks, all of those perks would have been wasted. on the survivor side.
That's the trade off with Distortion, sometimes it provides a lot of power, sometimes its useless. Also, if multiple survivors bring distortion, but one doesn't, then it actually just creates an easy tunnel situation for the killer.
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Fake gens - way too easy too identify, and being there are eight gens the chance a survivor even uses a fake gen is pretty low.
Scream of Souls - an area blast that goes through walls doesn't seem very fun. The Unknown has ways to counterplay around it, this just seems like you'd be stuck.
Altar - too many steps. One survivor interacting with another to then get an object breaks some of the game concepts.
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You're setting up a version of the plague that's generally weaker and more complicated. The idea of trapping gens has potential.
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Trying to hear it, but just sounds like the generator to me.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
With everyones explanations on this forum, every scenario people bring up always has the other side having the exact perk they need to screw up the formula being presented. See @Reinami in this very thread:
"Now, you have 2 choices:
- You pick up the guy you just downed,
- You ignore them and leave them on the ground.
If you leave them on the ground, they'll recover with unbreakable in about 20 seconds, meanwhile you are still chasing that other survivor for 12 of those seconds, you down them, 2.7 seconds, you pick them up, 3 seconds, you walk to a hook, 8 seconds, you hook them 1.5 seconds."
You can see from this small snippet of text, they know everything about the games that they will play. We could say they are wrong, but, lets be honest: We can't prove it, but neither can they. So things will continue to go round and round pointlessly.
I don't think bully squads are 'every other game.' But, doesn't matter, sounds cool on a forum to say.
Bottom line is if someone replies to you with an entire scenario laid out with specific perks and outcomes that are absolutely the worst, its probably not true. At all.
The other thing I'd add to this - these discussions never mention what people would be doing if they didn't have DS/Unbreakable. It's not like those perk slots just disappear. They could be running perks to speed up gens, BU+FTP to protect the survivor being chased, BP + Flashbang to rescue a down, etc.
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Interesting question. The main thing is what build am I running? Like if I'm running We'll Make It I don't want anyone else to run that perk as I want to get the unhooks. If I have kindred, I don't need the others to run it.
So if hypothetically I could build myself and others:
I run - We'll Make It, Deja Vu, Deliverance, Distortion
I focus on gens and getting unhooks
The other three survivors run:
Their exhaustion perk of choice
Their anti-tunnel of choice
-1 of them runs Circle of Healing + Exponential
-1 of them runs Prove and leader
-1 of them runs windows and let's say wiretap for more info
Considered one of them running BU+FTP, but not sure it buys enough time.
If we were running items then we would have gone heavy gen rush with steetwise and built to last. Also considered having just everyone run Deja Vu, but that leads to clustering too early.
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I don't get the argument either. If the perk was only anti-tunnel it would have to be way stronger. If a survivor runs over and blocks with a styptic/dead hard/health state etc it's all a normal part of game play.