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The payoff from using him correctly doesn’t justify the effort invested into playing him
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Be careful what you wish for is the most striking thing that comes to mind when I look at this thread.
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If DBD was a party game, then yes feel free to DC since bots will fill the slot. However BHVR in their quest to pander to everyone for the largest share of the pie doesn’t want to define what DBD is supposed to be.
Adding bots without doing more about DCs/suicides is what a party game would be like because not much is at stake.
But when you have BHVR also endorsing DBD as a competitive game via community cups, they send a lot of mixed signals.
This results in everyone applying their idea of what DBD is supposed to be into their logic and arguing around it.
You have some people arguing, “Think of the casuals. Friends shouldn’t be punished playing together. The amount of people playing competitively in public games is a very small percentage. ”
On the other hand, there are people maintaining that people who DC or suicide should be punished because they offer a disadvantage to the team even if bots exist. Both roles should be balanced based on the top 5%, win conditions etc
Lots of discussions would go a lot smoother if there was a clear idea of what DBD is supposed to be. If DBD was a casual game, then SBMM could be removed, AI directors could be implemented to make games not feel one sided. If DBD was competitive, ingame comms could be added, the game could be balanced around Survivors and Killer instead of Swf, Killer and solo queue.
Even the sentence “You can’t force people to play” makes sense if DBD was a party game where winning or losing didn’t matter that much. From a competitive perspective though, it makes no sense, hence here we are now with no real conclusion.
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Even if Blight is to be nerfed, I would rather they get the opinions of good Blight Players like Lilith rather than people who probably have played him less than 10 times but have screamed for nerfs for more than 10 times.
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Eventually the usage rate will reach a point that BHVR considers problematic, and it will be nerfed.
With the gen regression meta mostly being nerfed and Survivors opting to ignore healing and sit on gens, in theory more games should reach endgame, that means there will be more chances for Survivors to get value from the perk.
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Because some people don’t believe in comebacks anymore and are entitled. The people who DC or suicide on hook have their own idea of the DBD they want to play. When the game doesn’t turn out to be the DBD they want to play at the start, they DC or suicide.
I played against a duo before as Nemesis back before dead hard got nerfed months ago. They immediately DC after one of them failed their DH after running to me injured.
Last week I got queued with the same duo as Survivor against Legion. One of them lost the first chase and immediately DC while the other suicided on hook.
There’s probably lots of people who play like this out there and will never get punished for it apart from a queue penalty timer. PVP games don’t start and end in your favor all the time but some people just don’t understand that.
Edit: I got tombstoned by a Myers with 4 gens left on GOJ, my team split up on gens, forced hooks insteads of mori and eventually got a 3 man out. Pretty sure the defeatists would have DC-ed and called it an unwinnable game.
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Only one gen may have been completed, but if 2 other gens are already at 99%, it’s no different from 3 gens being completed. The Killer doesn’t know the exact progress of generators unless they run Tinkerer or physically check on gens. Your team may or may not be very efficient on gens as it will vary based on perks, items, spawn locations and side objectives (Someone cleansing a totem etc).
The Killer doesn’t know how efficient your team is at the start of the game and will rather play safe and tunnel one person then look for a fresh chase and have two other gens pop in the middle of said chase.
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It’s a common pick in SWF because using it in solo queue carries high risk. If someone isn’t prepared to receive a FTP BU combo, they won’t be prepared to run after getting up.
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I think in the minds of some posters, reverting the healing changes while keeping the generator regression perk nerfs is perfectly fine and balanced to them.
Also the comparison between Bloodlust and MFT is pretty laughable when Bloodlust was obviously not designed because Survivors had MFT but because of bad map design but this fact is seemingly glossed over.
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@Sava18 said:
Gotta be the most boring killer to face in the game for me. Passive spirit phasing and condemn are both super unskillful. What a waste of a "rework"^DBD rework^TM.
The ideal goal for this killer should be to make her chase skillful with demanifestation and make condemn only slowdown unless extremely negligent.
Getting downed once at 2 gens after turning in 3 tapes but still getting mori'd is just the worst.
Easily worse than knight and barely less boring than SM.
You’re talking about old Sadako, a Survivor could ignore tvs the entire game as long as they weren’t near the tv she projected to. That made her a problem only if someone was leaning into the Condemned strategy and she was F tier otherwise.
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A Pinhead going for the box and can get it constantly is a sign of good gameplay and knowledge being rewarded. Due to how the box spawns, he would be constantly moving around the map, so he would be going for multiple chases, not 3 genning, tunneling or camping. Played right, he encourages healthy gameplay I would say.
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@xPrinceHarlequinx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514263#Comment_3514263
I actually think she might be just a little bit stronger than pinhead mostly because of the instant death mechanic. Also, i think its a little bit harder to manage condemned than it is the box when it comes to balancing that and gen repair progress.
Just like how people jump into a locker to avoid tombstone Myers, there will probably be more players opting to go into the dying state in order to deposit their tapes.
Good looping will still prevent her from getting a 3 or 4 man condemned kill. Because a hooked or slugged Survivor cannot be Condemned, some Sadako players may opt to go for hit and run even if they are in an advantageous position to get a down.
Apart from giving Survivors base Aura reading of tvs within a certain range and nerfing her Iri addon (If Survivors can only deposit their tape at a certain tv, hitting them with the tape could increase their Condemned stacks by 1 instead of 2 and not destroy the tape), I think she will be ok.
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She’s similar to Pinhead, manageable in swf with knowledge of the game, messy in solo queue
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Pinnacle of Survivor sided map design
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3509710#Comment_3509710
This is assuming that an increase in MMR is desirable.
Increased MMR isn't necessarily synonymous with "winning". It's synonymous with killing.
If you want to play for hooks over kills, then you can still do so, and your MMR won't increase as much, and you'll face opponents against whom this win condition will be more applicable.
That logic would only apply if MMR is strict. However it doesn’t due to queue time priority. It’s no secret that people get mismatched in lobbies frequently, so going for hooks wouldnt stop you from being matched against potatoes or better players.
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@I_CAME said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511996#Comment_3511996
yea but you're breaking the matchmaking when you dodge. You get a new lobby and it's some disorganized solo queue trainwreck. Then you predictably destroy them. Then your MMR goes higher and higher and you have to dodge more lobbies to get what you want. Further breaking the matchmaking. The lobby you dodged also gets backfilled by a brand new killer who proceeds to get bullied by survivors with thousands of hours. This is a massive issue with the matchmaking system and exactly why dodging needs to be heavily discouraged. Survivors don't get to choose whether they go against a sweaty alch ring blight or a nurse. Why should killers get to choose their games but not survivors?
Actually most of the time I’m in the backfill. I’ve gotten 6k hours surv streamers and “comp champions” in my lobbies as Killer when I have less than 1k hours overall. In all honesty I wouldn’t dodge that much if it was pre 6.1.0 matchmaking apart from obvious cheaters.
No offense but while Killers can pick their lobbies, Survivors can choose to play in swf or not. Solo queue has disadvantages against a Killer because no one would play Killer if your average solo queue team could consistently beat the average Killer player.
I can see how problematic lobby shopping can be, but I see no personal benefit in being the backfill against better teams or potential cheaters, especially when the devs are slowly but surely reducing the viable playstyles for M1 weaker Killers.
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People speak out about toxic gameplay but here we have the devs indirectly encouraging it. Maybe down the line devs will report that they noticed a “surge of slugging” during this period in their dataset and rack their brains trying to figure out why not knowing they encouraged such behavior.
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Tunneling at 5 gens happens when the Killer doesn’t know what to expect and assumes the worst. Gen timers fluctuate too much when tool boxes, gen perks, survivors grouping up on gens are thrown into the mix. Survivors even in Solo Queue will have a rough idea of how long it will take before all gens are powered based on the UI, but the Killer does not unless they physically check on a gen.
For anyone who has played Killer enough, there have probably been a few games where you thought you still had time and could play chill before 2 gens pop in succession in the next 10 seconds.
Killers have to rely on a mental clock of how long they should be doing something like patrolling gens or chasing Survivors and that clock gets thrown off sync when gen speed boosting effects are added. Tunneling saves the time of finding a fresh chase and the payoff for getting that Survivor out of the game is huge.
Maybe Killers could get basekit Tinkerer minus the Undetectable effect so they would have a better idea of how much time they have before all gens pop, this would also tell them if they have the time to go for a fresh chase or to stay and tunnel. I think it’s silly how Survivors have so much information handed to them, but Killers can’t even get something as simple as individual hook states UI let alone a warning if they were going to lose 3 gens by the end of the first chase.
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@Sharby said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511686#Comment_3511686
Multiple queues won't fix anything because these people don't want healthy competition, they want to stomp and have dominant wins all the time.
If you put in a casual queue people would intentionally play it just for free 4ks.
The only way to solve this problem is to force killers to play in their appropriate MMR by removing the ability to lobby shop and remove backfilling.
Two things will result from this, all the people that tunnel and camp for free wins will be forced to play against efficient survivors who know how to deal with these strategies and they will get crushed enough to be forced to learn how to play better, resulting in better matches for everyone and a healthier MMR system.
Or they'll quit. Which would still be a net positive.
This is based on the assumption that there are more than enough Killer players at each skill bracket to queue with all the efficient and casual Survivors.
The loose MMR and BP incentives were implemented because not enough people were playing Killer in the first place. 10 minute Survivor Queues were common back in early 2022.
If the amount of Killer players is enough to meet the 1:4 ratio, I’m sure devs would also tighten matchmaking as well. However they have yet to do so and have not even commented much on it. That would imply that the loose matchmaking is still needed to ensure everyone gets games fast enough.
You speak of it being a positive for people to stop playing as Killer because of their playstyles. However devs need to make sure they do not outright discourage people from playing Killer. Why do you think camping and tunneling aren’t bannable offences but instead bandaids are introduced to minimize the impact?
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My knowledge of tiles aren’t the best but I know enough to not take a chase at shack/GOP or Ormond main building at the start of the game unless god pallets are predropped. If maps have certain structures or tiles that Killers are recommended to not chase at early on, it’s because they are too safe.
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Maybe because if the average Killer has a hard time to win even against average Survivors, then the player might just stop playing Killer? If playing Killer is tuned to be more stressful and difficult, why would your average player commit to playing the role long term?
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Reasons for dodging:
Swfs
People livestreaming (I get twitch streamers in my lobbies occasionally)
Potential hackers (red flags on profile)
I’m sorry but there’s more incentive to look at the lobby first before I decide whether to play with a certain team or not based on my personal experience.
Another way to fix it is to look at the Survivor Killer ratio perhaps? If matchmaking has to grab a Killer from a lower skill bracket after 1 or 2 dodges, wouldn’t that imply that there aren’t much Killers of each skill bracket queuing in the first place? I wonder why. Food for thought.
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Just keep a record of the perks Survivors are running in your matches and you will get a gauge of how unpopular/popular it is.
I’ve seen 4 man MFTs two or three times now and I hardly play Killer these few days much less get the mythical 4 man Swf.
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I would say it would probably be better to be reported for the first game, just so that devs will actually notice some people do obnoxious stuff like that and push for updates to prevent such abuse.
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@averagemikaelamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510703#Comment_3510703
Eruption is still strong and frankly I dont like it. The aura part should go and the regression should go up slightly. The aura part is unhelpful for weaker killers but strong mobility killers go brr with it.
Increasing the regression up to 15% or 20% to justify removing the aura reveal would be counter productive as BHVR had already decided to nerf the gen kick meta. If the Killer secured a 3 gen and kept applying eruption on them, getting one down would apply the equivalent of old Pain Res regression to all of them. Add in Jolt, pop and overcharge and 3 gen strategy would be popular again
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Perhaps they are using VPN? I get survivors whom I suspect are from China/Taiwan all the time
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MMR is scored based on Kills/Escapes though. You may think that hooks is the way to go but clearly the devs don’t share your sentiment, otherwise it would be hooked by daylight
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A simple hook counter per survivor for Killers would already go a long way to buffing hook token based perks.
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People have high hopes. Wesker was the last licensed Killer and he’s solid enough that people complain about playing against him excessively. I think the devs can deliver
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Killing COH actually revived Hit and Run which is an alternative to tunneling/slugging and camping that people keep complaining about. Devs also introduced MFT so that people who ignored healing to do gens would have a bit more of a chance to escape.
Pain Res got buffed and nerfed at the same time. This slightly nerfed proxy camping as Killers could keep downing+ hooking the Rescuer for the 15% regression. DMS synergy has also been restricted to 4 times max
Corrupt is a failsafe for large maps where you could have half a gen done before the Killer even reaches the Survivors. I would argue that it actually punishes Killers who are able to down someone early.
Windows is strong regardless of solo queue or swf because Survivors do not have to spend time looking around to decide where to run to if the Killer arrives, the information is just there.
Self care + Botany is actually stronger in solo queue or if you are playing against Oni or Hit and Run since healing is limited now.
Please don’t try to paint a narrative that Survivors have no perk “meta” so to speak. I just went against a 4man swf running Resilience + MFT and Hope/Adrenaline. There is definitely still a meta.
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The reason why matchmaking was stretched so much was because not enough people played Killer regularly.
It’s either fast queues and messy lobbies or slow queues and decent lobbies
I doubt that there are enough Killers now even if they reverted to pre 6.1.0 matchmaking. Give people more reason to play Killer and matchmaking can be reverted to have more balanced lobbies
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Botany + Self care is still a very common pick in the japanese community. I myself also run selfcare when I play with them. Perhaps the high pick rate is why devs are wary of buffing it
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If the advice “Chase someone else if you don’t want to go up against MFT” holds true, then perhaps Killers should be notified if the Survivor has MFT? If the Killer is going to figure it out eventually anyway then letting the Killer know beforehand wouldn’t change much.
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The loose matchmaking was implemented to make it easier to get games with the risk of diminishing game experience. It also makes it harder to determine if there is a shortage of Killers queuing or not.
Prior to this matchmaking implementation, people were even able to calculate on average the Survivor to Killer ratio and it was abysmal.
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Perhaps Nurse pick rate might be the issue? If they nerf her till the point that she’s unusable (BHVR can and will do that) and there are lots of people who play her constantly, do you think these people will just switch to main other Killers? I suspect a good bunch will just stop playing Killer as a whole.
It’s not like they haven’t tried to change Nurse with the addon pass and m2 nerfs as well.
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Or maybe balancing and streamlining DBD actually made it easier to predict the outcome of games which also led to people being more likely to not waste time and effort playing a lost game.
Maybe if overpowered things were reintroduced on both sides, people would be more likely to stick around since there was still a chance for a comeback.
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Hit and Run ties actually encourages the Killer to learn to play from a macro perspective because it’s about spreading pressure and not just chasing one person while the other 3 sit on gens interrupted. Since Wraith has Undetectable and Speed addons, he fits this role the best.
The way I see it, the Killer playstyle that Survivors want regardless of Killer design is:
Chase one person, down them, hook them, look for someone else and not go after the unhooked survivor again. Don’t spread multiple injuries and don’t slug/3 gen. It’s a weird mix of wanting Killers to play micro style but not super micro where they just tunnel one person out.
The irony is that if BHVR designed Killers around that playstyle, every Killer would either be a loop denier or ranged/fast moving Killer, which would make Killers stale really fast.
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The Survivor population in general play towards ending matches fast now. I believe you will notice 5 gen chase videos are as less common now as compared to 2 years ago. This coupled with Survivors being more gen efficient would give you the feeling that your time limit is much more shorter as compared to before.
Sometime back, I swf-ed with a returning DBD player who last played in 2021. She basically spent the whole match finding and cleansing all 5 totems to prevent No One Escapes Death. We still lost the game. If she had ignored the totems and focused on doing gens the whole game, we would have gotten a 4 man out. In the past, Survivors could mess around and do side quests like cleanse totems, but that’s not the case anymore.
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Faster games being prioritized over Matchmaking was because Killer was in a bad spot prior to 6.1.0
10 minute queues were the norm. BHVR realized there were insufficient Killers in each matchmaking range to meet Survivor demand and buffed Killer, added BP incentives, expanded the matchmaking range in lieu of this.
In order for matchmaking to be reverted to be much more strict, the Killer population will have to meet a certain threshold consistently.
My guess is that this threshold has not being achieved consistently yet, thus the status quo will continue. Nerfing Killers till the point that even a bunch of uncoordinated Solo Queue casual players can mount a comeback against casual Killers is more likely to dissuade players from playing Killer.
When 10 min Survivor Queues even with Killer BP incentives become consistent, BHVR will have to do something akin to 6.1.0 again as damage control.
I see people complaining about being camped, tunneled or slugged now, but more than a year ago, people were ok with this because it meant that they were at least able to get a game.
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I just hope that the Xenomorph doesn’t have an M2 similar to Demo’s Lunge
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3500058#Comment_3500058
Funny is if you for example made it that survivors can see aura of active TVs, she would go back to hell.
Simply because it would make her counter play easy to do and it shuts her down a lot.
I think it is quite likely what they are going to do, but I guess it's better than nerf her cooldowns etc. That could result simply in being unenjoyable for both sides.
I think they could make the auras of TVs switched on appear to Survivors when they are at 2/3 Condemned stacks. That would make her basekit slightly less oppressive
Currently TV auras are revealed to Survivors holding tapes when they are close by. Perhaps that addon that inflicts Blindness to Survivors holding tapes at 4 Condemned stacks could be buffed to hide the auras of tvs at 4 stacks too. That way Survivors are incentivized to pick up tapes early on if that addon is in play.
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People just haven’t figured out the counterplay yet. Once people have gone against her enough, they will adapt.
In a way TVs are like reusable timegated resources now. If one clueless Survivor predrops half the pallets at the beginning of the game, the team is going to have a hard time later on because one person turned the map into a deadzone within one chase. Obviously the game shouldn’t be balanced for these people or you would have respawning pallets. If one Survivor decides to be selfish and keeps taking and depositing tapes regardless of Condemned level, obviously the rest are going to have a hard time later on. They need to learn and not be handheld more.
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The reason why there are so much cheaters in the game is because DBD went F2P on Epic games. So no.
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It’s been less than a week since she was released. If there are new builds, they will probably take some time to surface.
In the meantime, just beeline to a tv once they turn on at the start of the game and grab a tape. Hold on to the tape until you either get hit. Repeat process again after. Once you get to 4 stacks, you can start dropping off your tape and repeat holding on to tapes again.
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The rest are fine. it’s just FTP and Buckle up combo that is too safe. The idea of giving Broken as a trade off for an insta heal was ok for FTP, but allowing for a combo where both Survivors can take another hit just by pressing a button (Once again) is kinda obnoxious especially in an endgame scenario.
MFT also needs either a nerf to the speed boost or the duration of the Endurance could be changed/2-3 heals for one Endurance effect with longer duration.
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@oreoslurpee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496031#Comment_3496031
huh, then i wonder why people cant put it in a lot of TVs. might be a bug!
It could be that. Alternatively, since inserting the tape into the tv turns it “on” but disables projection to it for 70 seconds, it could also be a case whereby new tapes cannot be inserted during this time frame. If the 70 second time period is reset every time a new tape is inserted, the Survivors could keep a specific television disabled for a really long time by dropping their tapes only at that certain tv.
I believe people will figure out more details in the coming weeks to optimize getting rid of Condemned. Alternatively if you know a Survivor dropped a tape off at TV A, you could try doing so before the 70 second timer to check if this theory is true.
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@oreoslurpee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3496015#Comment_3496015
honestly i believe there should be more TVs, or at the very least just make it so survivors can re-turn TVs back on to input the tape. it would definitely help not make condemn so strong
I believe Survivors can only take tapes from active televisions but can deposit them regardless of the tv being active or deactivated? This was already a feature for old Sadako, otherwise it would be impossible for a Survivor to deposit their tape if Sadako had turned it off via projection previously.
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If people complaining about MFT since day one were told to give it time and see how much it actually impacts the meta, the same should go for onryo lol. If more people picked up onryo, then perhaps fewer people would complain about weskers.
I haven’t tried out the new Sadako yet but I probably will have to adapt to her new playstyle since my previous setup (Non Condemned build) has been obliterated.
With that being said, I would argue that if her basekit condemned was to be toned down, her addons could be changed to give debuffs on holding tapes, that would resolve the issue of people holding on to her tapes indefinitely
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Ask yourself truthfully if current SM is enough to make you quit DBD and stop buying cosmetics until she gets changed.
If the answer is no, then that means she isn’t going to be that high on the priority list for a remake.
If the answer is yes, then the next question is whether the amount of people who share the same sentiment would be statistically significant.
Now imagine the community response if devs announced that one of their Licensed Killers would be delayed till next year because they had to remake SM.
The premise that SM causes so much grief that everything should be dropped to remake her is so silly.
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I think she’s ok. People are just too used to not interacting with tvs and need time to adapt. Prior to the changes, I could even run the addons that gave Oblivious and Blindness near powered TVs and walk around Manifested. Survivors would rather do gens with those debuffs than remove the tape.