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I don't understand how anyone sees him as a setup killer. Everything he does is focused around Chase.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3454841#Comment_3454841
Doctor I could see, with the timings. That has to be frustrating, I don't play Doctor often so I wouldn't have seen that.
Can't say I'm all that convinced on the others, though. Heck, I was just playing Legion against three survivors with MFT and it felt fine. The perk gave them an edge, as a chase perk should, but they were hardly uncatchable. I kinda question that a perk "robbing you of a hit" at windows and such necessarily means it's badly designed- isn't that what a perk is meant to do? Give the player who brought it an edge they wouldn't have otherwise had?
If it were every window and pallet that'd be something, but as it stands, it just sounds like the perk does something.
Ya, and it feels bad. It's frictional and frustrating in a way a game doesn't need to be on a consistent basis. Just like how getting dead harded under a pallet or having to play a guessing game on when the survivor is gonna press E sucks.
It's a PvP title. Your opponents are supposed to stymie you with their perks and abilities. That's fine. What's less fine is when you take an already stressful role and add those little moments of friction consistently throughout a given match. Once or twice is alright. Say ten or more? That's reaching the territory where you're pushing folks away from the role. The survivor equivalent is losing 10% cuz they let go of a gen, or going to second stage on hook because your teammate is looting a chest. But there's not really a 1:1 because the killer is always going to have interaction with survivors than any survivor will with the killer.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3454787#Comment_3454787
It may surprise you but fix might not be simply remove haste effect.
You can make healing survivors on ground faster and focus on anti-slugging part of the perk.
Survivors finally got good perk? Well, last good perk killers got is CoB and we know how that went.
Ironically call of brine was not considered very good when it was released. I dunno why people don't remember this. It only got use after the overcharge buff patch.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3454831#Comment_3454831
Can I ask, sincerely, which killers does this perk butcher?
Like, specific examples with reasoning, if you're willing.
Doctor is the worst I've seen. Messes with the already delicate shock timings bad. Dredge second worst, makes connected loops even stronger than they were before. Legion. I could be running blood echo but then I don't have a chase/gen/info perk on a basic killer. Onryo. Greed greed greed vacuum into pallet stun.
I also play clown and knight but I haven't played them since the patch. It feels unfair almost like how old dead hard did. The feeling of getting robbed of a hit you would have made at a pallet or window without the perk in play.
I'm not even saying kill the perk. Just make it conditional in some fashion. Duration like lucky break. Make it generous. Anything.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3454781#Comment_3454781
Removing haste effect will just kill this perk. Endurance effect is very situational and bad.
After Mikaela, this is the first time we got decent survivor perk and everyone are already complaining about it.
Nobody wants a single perk that warps the entire game around it like Circle did. It's unhealthy.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
I think duration kills the perk. Some player said dark theory effect is too weak, you know. 2% does nothing but as I keep playing killer vs this perk on experienced loopers, I am starting come to conclusion that 3% is too high of a number. Its almost like I knew dark theory effect was strong. The weaker players survivor MMR players are just as easy to down but very experienced top 1% looper's show the perk's power-level. Since perk introduction, I have never seen so much Hope get used. I used to facing 4 adrenaline but now I just see Hope everywhere as killer. My survivor game experience? Never been easier to loop then now.
Just from early impressions, I think the perk needs to go from 3%->2%.
I think duration is the perfect solution. Treat it like lucky break.
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"Blood echo, fearmonger and such perks"
Just gonna handwave the other truly terrible perks that cause exhaustion? And the fact they blood echo works on like two killers? And that fearmonger's exhaustion is short enough that you can get it back in chase? There aren't viable perk solutions that cause exhaustion. Especially when you've gotta dedicate at least two slots to game stall to counter the insane gen speeds lately.
Yeah, a lot of perks suck. They should be buffed, not overshadowed by yet another S-tier perk that butchers the worst killers in the game. Winning vs it as plague, a high A tier killer doesn't mean anything. She's in a good spot to begin with.
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@nars said:
this kind of ruins MFT. I like the concept of rewarding altruism, but MFT isnt really the perk to apply it to. Its a self chase extender like lithe and SB, and also has no synergy with them. It kind of reminds me of the DH killing nerf, where they made it anti tunnel (a good base for a perk) but it became terrible bc of it (bad perk to apply it to).
I think that MFT is a fine perk, and that its only real issue is easy haste stacking. Most killers can just ignore that its even there, using their range/chase mobility to down people rather than m1. Unlike its counterparts (lithe and SB) that every killer has to deal with on some level. Even nurse herself gets demolished by a good SB, but is she gonna care you move 0.12m/s faster? that logic applies to most high tiers. wesker, plague, huntress, hag, oni, blight, nurse... all of them either move so fast that 3% is nothing or have so much range or pressure distance doesnt matter. Only m1 killers are really affected that much, but thats the case with everything in this game anyways and is more of a killer balance issue than a perk one.
side note: The part where unhooking someone gives you endurance is a bad idea. It would encourage the killer to tunnel off hook rather than deal with you. After all, 2 injured survivors have BT right now, so whats the incentive to wait out the unhookers rather than the unhookees? borrowed time used work like that, gave endurance to everyone. did not go well 😭
I'm not even sure this is a nerf. Endurance on unhook by itself is huge. Pretty sure first iteration BT did this and it was insanely strong.
Also the rest of your post is flat out wrong in instances. Some of the killers you mention are 110% ones.
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I get bonus for killer starting at 6pm(50%) up to 100 starting maybe an hour later. Generally I ignore it until survivor queues get to be a couple minutes then I switch.
OP, your post comes off incredibly hostile toward a whole half of the game. You gotta stop with this pettiness. There's just no call for it.
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I'm dying to know what happens when the survivors make a horrible mistake and I've got two hooked next to one another. Do they just get free escape? It's hard throwing to leave them.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3453687#Comment_3453687
Admittedly I forgot about Septic Touch, lol. That one is just bad, but Blood Echo should feasibly become more viable when players are trying to stay injured for their perk value. Either way, plenty of killers have addons and they all have Fearmonger, not to mention bypassing the need entirely by bringing Exposed or stealth or hindered or haste... Or just playing one of the many killers that don't care about this, but that's more of an ask.
As for Dead Hard, I assumed people meant the pre-6.1.0 version, considering the numbers and language being used. That is an insane comparison. Post-6.1.0 and pre-6.7.0 Dead Hard is... still a bad comparison but less overtly insane, I guess?
One of the many killers that ignore the speed boost....nurse, spirit, blight? No thank you. The thought makes me puke a little bit in my mouth. You know fearmonger causes exhaustion for five seconds, right? It's complements blood echo because it pauses the exhaustion timer but on its own doesn't do anything. And then the problem is that you're not running any game slowdown so you're just gonna lose. Believe it or not I run these builds often on legion and they are bad. You shouldn't have to run a bad build just to counter one busted perk. Also they can just heal up and still get value from their perk when they get injured. It's not no mither.
Old old dead hard was way better than the nu version but the nu one was still a huge problem. Aside from tacitly disabling lunges and ranged killer powers it was just frustrating. That sort of consistent friction simply doesn't belong in games. Feeling like your effort just doesn't matter several times over the course of a match in anything is unhealthy.
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@jesterkind said:
The overall balance of the perk aside, the number of people comparing this perk to old Dead Hard is insanity. Amount of distance gained was never the problem with old Dead Hard, it already gave massively less distance than the other Exhaustion perks, it was how quickly it gave the distance, when that distance was given, and how uncounterable that distance was that made it problematic. None of those apply to Made For This; it gives the distance slowly over a long period of time, granting multiple opportunities for the killer to get a hit, and it has multiple counters that are more meaningfully achievable than old Dead Hard's ever were.
As for the overall balance... I think it's pretty obviously an acceptable perk if taken on its own. It's a noticeable speed boost but only when you're vulnerable, and the killer has more Exhaustion tools than ever to try and deal with it- not to mention that the survivor is dissuaded from using Exhaustion perks themselves, and it's just a speed boost, not a dash with i-frames or Endurance. It won't stop killer powers at all, other than by helping a survivor turn a corner a bit faster.
I do think Haste stacking is starting to become a problem on the horizon. The question of combining current tools for Haste aside, the devs basically can't add more consistent Haste now without stacking with Made For This becoming a huge problem; some kind of hard limit there would be pretty freeing for the game's long-term design space.
Every exhaustion perk is ass or situational on like two killers(blood echo). I've seen septic touch precisely once ever and it did nothing. Most exhaustion add-ons are also truly terrible or painfully niche so that's not an option either. They took away clown's bottles :(
Also I'm not even sure which dead hard you're talking about. The community really needs a way to delineate the two for these slapfights
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@Devil_hit11 said:
it is good gen-jockey perk. I think there are survivor player that always wanted to run gen progression flat % bonus perks but there was never any good ones to really use until now. Deja vu fits that niche now.
Yes, there are many players of X side that want to complete their sole objective as quickly as possible. Should those people be catered to and given powerful tools to do so?
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@jeffkillsyou96 said:
Well I used made for this and I’m getting around the same results I would get from any other games I play and from my experience using it with resilience and hope too btw killers are still able to get me just fine especially when noed is played
So killers are able to get you fine with noed? Seems like your S-tier perk did it's job and got you to the end game.
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It's pretty funny that they literally don't read the add-ons before buffing them
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@fulltonon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3453158#Comment_3453158
I'm not saying it's a free advantage(at least not this time), I'm just stating it is a "free" (as in being basically not require anything unique, like window/high ground/"SPRINT"/hitting killer/etc...) distance perk which allows survivors to reach pallet they otherwise can't, exactly like old dead hard.
My post was sarcastic. It's absolutely free.
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It's not free apparently because it requires you to be injured.
Because being injured is a difficult thing to come by, you see.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452936#Comment_3452936
I think you're wildly overestimating the safety of the 99'ed heal strat. You're still injured when the chase starts, which still makes even attempting it suicidal against a fair number of killers and builds.
I'm saying this from the killer perspective, for the record. I do consider survivors who stay injured ones who are taking a risk, because it puts a lot more pressure on them to not mess up and renders them helpless if I'm playing a stealth or ranged killer.
You.... You can tell when a killer is coming 99% of the time. Who's sneaking up on you to the extent that you can't tap a heal? Every stealth killer except ghost face has a tell.
I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who literally plays whatever the incentive is. I don't have a "side". I've played with 99ed heals and resi a lot when vault build was a thing. It's no more dangerous than being full healed.
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Sometimes mods make mistakes. One time I got banned for an insult someone made to me, because it was misread as me saying the thing.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452926#Comment_3452926
Being injured is not a risk. Staying injured is a risk, and is actively suicidal against certain killers.
Like I said, you ain't gotta stay injured. There's an easy way to negate any of the cost around that build.
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You've had other survivors heal you before, I assume? More common these days than before. A medkit with a small charge can heal you to full if you break off a heal before it's complete. It's not hard and requires no communication.
Being injured is not risk in of itself. It's an eventuality.
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The new game director is going to have to learn the same lesson the old one did that precipitated the 6.10 patch-
Survivors pay the bills, but you need killer players for the game to function. Killers can't have an actively hostile experience or they'll get alienated and won't play. That'll kill survivor queues and you're back to square one.
The anniversary stream where they mentioned literally nothing for killer players was the first sign of this. These buffed/new survivor perks have solidified it.
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@nars said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452686#Comment_3452686
...being injured, I choose to stay injured for resilience value on gens.
That's not a risk. If that were the case old iron will and dead hard would have had a cost associated with them. They did not. Medkits are still very powerful and all you need to do is 99 your heal.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Wesker is still playable btw, BHVR failed to disable him?
Apparently due to "server degradation" the kill switch isn't working.
I don't really say this lightly, but maybe the DC penalty should be temporarily removed.
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...... Risk? What's the risk?
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Hux also has an incredibly repetitive theme.
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Destroying killer perk synergy in the name of "balance"? That's a hard no from me
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452649#Comment_3452649
I mean, you will always have 1 dead Perk if you use it with any Exhaustion-Perk except for DH. You probably use every Exhaustion Perk while you are still healthy and once you are injured, you wont get any benefit from Made for This.
And with DH it is questionable if you want to use 2 Perk Slots when Sprint Burst is just better and only takes 1 Perk Slot.
Why? You milk made for this for all it's worth, greed loops, then either toss a pallet and use the extra speed to get to a hill for balanced, or vault the nearest window with lithe, or wait for the killer to telegraph their swing and smash hit away. It doesn't replace exhaustion perks, it complements them. Sooner or later people will realize this.
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@Phantom_ said:
Put on Mindbreaker/Blood Echo. Problem solved.
Filling half the perk slots available to you with mediocre perks just to counter one busted one is a very very bad ask. No killer except legion and plague can use blood echo anyway.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452606#Comment_3452606
Yeah, you cannot use most of the Exhaustion Perks. Which is significant.
Of course you can. Do people just say this to downplay the perk? It pairs excellently with every exhaustion perk but sprint burst.
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Didn't they do this with clown once and rather than fix it.... Just reverted the buff? Be careful what you ask for.
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Strangers aren't going to do what you want even if you screech at them over voice comms. See: every online game with voice communication. The complaints are identical. It's just a human thing.
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@AngelOfHope2017 said:
Does BHVR read these?
Absolutely not unless it's like an easy to answer question about game mechanics or some such.
I fully agree about the MMR thing. It's a system we're forced to participate in, so we should have an idea of our place in it. At least post game
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3452260#Comment_3452260
That would suggest, that they don't want to work on gens. The map is basically loose 7gen already (hence you correctly said how strong jolt is here). It's so tiny, that it's on killer if he can't create deadzone in right spot
They don't want to work on gens because they run an incredibly common perk? Do people with sprint burst and adrenaline also avoid gens? I'm not following your logic here.
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@lifeisstrange said:
Another bias topic and wrong both sides are just as toxic equally and people need to stop saying its mostly survivors, how many games I play and I dont t bag or click at the killer but get tunnel/camp/bm on hook for doing a good loop or mind game and specially cause am a streamer which we KNOW killer mains are one of the most bias people towards streamers.
Killers do not slug only for being t bag, there are reasons like bad hook spawns totally legit I get that. There killers who are just plain sweaty and has a kit that purposely is use to do slugging(nurses/twins/wraiths/spirit). There is the common and most annoying slugging where its just 2 survivors and killer slug third person and tries to find the 4th one for their 4k
I can ask why must killer smack on hook/face camp/tunnel or even bleed out the person that mind game them and its not like there being toxic, they are just doing what to do not be killed?
Well that's simply untrue. I can go a dozen games as survivor and not have a killer hit on hook or head shake or whatever.
What I can't do, is go more than a single game as killer without survivors waiting at the exit gates for me to watch them leave, slamming their Ctrl keys the whole way. Waiting until the very last second while I'm perched in a corner watching YouTube or whatever. It's the most juvenile garbage imaginable and pretending like both sides are equivalent in it is just flat out wrong.
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@Annso_x said:
I've never Tbagged (intentionnally at least), I get slugged as much as the next survivor.
Thinking one side is toxic for no reason whatsoever while the other side being toxic is justified 90% of the time because "the other side surely started it" is absolute baloney.
Anecdotally I never teabag and I'm basically never slugged. Maybe 1/50 games. No exaggeration.
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Sure. But halve the timer.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3451768#Comment_3451768
I don't mind it. You just need to leave a chase and keep in mind where your deadzone is (and not create it where there are no more gens - if survivor brings you there, you just leave it) - you just can't create map-wide deadzone.
And as for the killers - I don't have any game offering on both legion and bubba already. Dredge is not as bad as you make it sound, you just need to be aware that you are much stronger at bottom then on top (because lockers). Clown can abuse deadzones very very good - but again - you need to be aware of them and make use of them well...
Unfortunately 3/4 survivors have Windows and aren't gonna randomly run into an area without yellow auras.
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Honestly I think she'd be fine if she couldn't reactivate her drones at will from a distance so you can actually get rid of them. Give it a like 15s cooldown and also let you start hacking them immediately instead of staring at them for 10s before you can do anything.
I think the rest of your post is mostly silly though. The obligatory "solo bad" whining. Ugh.
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Icefrog is a literal actual genius and has been working on the game for like two decades.
Fair point though.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3451638#Comment_3451638
Sure, they are not perfect, but still better than nothing (what we have).
It would be most optimal to have access to official data, where you could filter it by region and MMR groups.
But DBD has issues with balancing, so no wonder they don't want to display it for everyone.
Main issue is Big data is not that relevant. Nurse has lowest Kill rate, Sadako has one of highest. (all MMR groups)
It's nice to see it, but you can't use it without uderstanding reasons behind those results (they often fail at that -> Billy, Nemesis, Twins addon nerfs).
Every PvP title has issues with balancing.
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MMR needs to be gone, but they've put too much work in it to be abandoned.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
The easiest solution, in my opinion, is make it so the Haste effect does not stack with other Haste effects, it solves a lot of problems with the perk.
Nah, it's insanely strong on it's own. I consider hope to be fair because you're playing with 3/4 perks until the last gen pops. That's an opportunity cost. Made for this doesn't have a cost coupled with two very strong effects. It's ridiculous.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
I've never seen so much complaining over a single perk that not only will probably have a sub 1% usage rate, but is also hard countered by base kit bloodlust 1 (5%) and nearly every single killer power in the game.
Yeah! Waiting an extra 15s every single chase contingent upon not getting vacuumed into a pallet or having to break a pallet or the survivor not having a strong window to play just to counter part of one perk is totally fair and viable! What's all the complaining for????
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@Gandor said:
In my experience the game is generally already killer sided. Not in every case, not all the time, but it's small, has barely any good window (and I mean good. Not awesome or god window) and is very fixed with tons of hooks, but it still suffers from inside-map syndrome, where survs just can't find and work on gens.
If I struggle a few games, I take legion, bubba, nurse (i would also take nemesis, but I don't have him), for very very very good chance to win.
But I feel good on the map with clown, ghostface, twins, dredge spirit or wesker. In my mind, gideon is without a doubt killer sided.
But it is true, that I just won't run behind someone for 5 gens, never leaving him. It's very easy to loose that way.
Well, you're absolutely wrong. Ghostie has a better time than most because it's an indoor map so easy to sneak up on people, spirit twins Wesker have an easy time became they're A+ tier killers. It takes a lot to get them down in general.
But clown and dredge? Come on. Vs any but the most braindead survivors you're having a very very difficult to borderline impossible game. Vs clown people just predrop and you have to chew through fifteen God pallets before you get to do anything and ooops, game over. Dredge is in a worse place because there aren't any lockers toward the middle of the map and remnant is worthless with so many connected loops. Drop remnant, they leave to the next connected loop. Like clown you've gotta chew through God pallets left and right but unlike clown you've got no way to hinder people holding W away from you. When I load into the game as one of those killers I've already mentally written it off as a loss. Survivors are not burning Game offerings to send me to a map where they are at a disadvantage because they feel like being nice. Even a lot of the filler pallets are way safer than you'd think at first blush.
The only good thing to be said about the game is that surge is excellent on it. If you get survivors who actually greed instead of dropping every pallet in the world and get consistent downs it's pretty easy to start a surge snowball.
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What a tortured and overwrought solution to a problem that I'm not really convinced exists. Gen regression is dead outside of like two perks anyway. You'll get better results with deadlock and dead man's than any of the anemic regression perks we have left.
It's got too many variables to every achieve anything resembling balance. It'd make gen timing impossible for the killer to keep tabs on. Typically I can feel out when and where a gen is gonna pop. With this variance there'd me no way to know.
Ok. Survivors. So if I bring Prove to help with a challenge I'm hindering my teammates? If everyone brings it we're just screwed? The perks I can bring while playing with my friends are penalized now? It's just not gonna happen.
Finally: progression and regression are not two sides of the same coin. Survivors don't need any progression perks at all to bang out gens if they just split up and stay safe. But killers without mobility need some sort of stall in order to make the game last long enough to tilt in their favor. Clown, legion, Dr, onryo, etc etc. Stall functions as ersatz pressure to make up for what they naturally lack regarding being able to pressure the map.
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@I_CAME said:
I hope it's insanely strong and lasts for close to a year so killer mains have to endure what survivors did with eruption. Only seems fair.
Why are people in this community like this? The spite and pettiness toward the "other side"? It's so frustrating.
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@Justa335i said:
Distortion is fine as is. With so many aura reading abilities in the game, its nice to have options.
Having distortion also gives that survivor a secondary objective. They need to get near the killer without being caught for 30 seconds to gain a single token.
It's weird that every perk OP has is a huge buff..... except distortion. Which is a huge nerf.
Also distortion is not a secondary objective. If you get caught it still gains tokens. Honestly the only way I've ever run out is vs a full aura huntress cuz her TR is so small.
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@Boons123 said:
So you're counting on weak survivors to win?
"WoO" doesn't speed up any action, doesn't give distance, or anything other than it shows aura of windows and a pallet
Take this video to stop blaming perk and start blaming your bad performance
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HKFZ9AAECU9P/a6f6a460-2d2b-4fdb-95ba-e04645eb3fed.jpeg
Everyone counts on a weak survivor to win. You pressure the weak link as killer, this is common knowledge.
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@Orthane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3451130#Comment_3451130
But the problem is there's TOO much counterplay. Not only can you dodge normally, clear with a vaccine, and out range it, but you can also crouch it. Having to hit 3 times and having the ability to cleanse is already enough of a drawback, the crouching shouldn't be there at all.
You basically can't dodge normally if they drag it and the vaccine is middling counterplay considering it wastes time to get, tells nemesus your location and is a limited resource.
He has to hit you three times, but those times are basically negating vault locations. It's weird how people try to downplay this.