SixShotOcelot
SixShotOcelot
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Interesting that this and it's opposite (Killer body blocking a survivor in corner until match ends) are both in "Recent Discussions".
A) Something definitely needs to be done for BOTH sides regarding holding the other hostage. Killers, body blocking a survivor for infinite time & survivors endlessly hiding until game timer ends.
B) Solution for both should absolutely NOT BE A PERK
C) Asking OP if they "played a particular strategy" (ie: camping/tunneling) is quite the moot point. Holding the game hostage is still "holding the game hostage", thus a reportable offense that is against ToS. Regardless of whether or not they did, and regardless of whether or not the survivors did it in response to such a thing.
I actually like OPs suggestion regarding the perk idea, but I think it should be base (not a perk) and also have a longer activation requirement (closer to 3-5min). Perhaps killer instinct would be better as it can't be avoided by lockers. Crows seem like they are intended to prevent this but can easily avoided.
For survivors being held hostage (body blocked in corner), they should similarly have an effect to counter this after ~3-5 minutes. Perhaps they lose collision with the killer. This allows corner body block strats with killer powers to still be used (such as plague, bubby, billy). However, prevents endlessly holding someone in place denying them the ability to play the match.
Great topic though!
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Man, I am so sorry to hear that. I can definitely empathize with your situation. I would be DEVASTATED if I couldn't play Demo.
Fingers crossed for that cross-progression coming soon. Unfortunately, I feel I regularly hear Sony/PlayStation is the hold-up, so I could imagine other cross-progression such as Switch<->Steam or Steam<->Xbox coming first if they are unable to make all console ecosystems cross-progressable.
Best, of luck!
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I sincerely appreciate the level of detail, time and energy the OP (and everyone discussing) put into this discussion. And while I generally disagree with OP, I did find it an interesting discussion. I just wanted to throw my two cents in.
OP states on various occasions that STBFL is viewed as "healthy", "balanced", but is problematic.
1st - there a variety of gameplay-aspects/perks/killer powers/etc. that most in the community find UNhealthy, NOT balanced, AND problematic. So, I think BHVR should tackle those before even glancing at STBFL.
2nd - "works on a variety of killers" - Is there not a plethora of more controversial perks that do as well? Any and all gen regression/slow down? Aura revealing? NOED? Why is this only a STBFL issue?
3rd - Good on strong killers (despite good for weak killer argument) - Aren't most things strong on strong killers? Multiple perks are strong on weak/bottom tier killers and strong killers. Like any gen regression/slow down. Some killer's kits have more synergy with these perks but that's more based on the nuance of their power and the perk. Additionally, isn't half the fun the unique interactions between killer perks and powers. We know what not unique perk+power interactions look like. (Old Ex: Ruin, Undying, Corrupt, NOED; New Ex: Overcharge, CoB, Corrupt, Scourge PR literally on every killer)
4th - completely stomps solo players - this is literally just a blanket issue with the game. Why address it only with this perk? I feel it is rather common knowledge that soloq is the weakest role. This should be addressed outside of perks (as they did with HUD).
5th - makes camping and tunneling completely free - As many pointed out, this is not true. However, even if it were, the issue is camping and tunneling not the perk. Similar to soloq, camping and tunneling should be addressed directly, outside of perks changes.
I only have constructive criticism of the arguments provided. I have no constructive feedback on how STBFL should be changed because in my opinion, it shouldn't be.
I think anyone can take an aspect of something that can be improved and call it problematic, regardless of that thing being in a good place or not. Everything can be improved. However, I feel in the context of the game in present day, calling STBFL problematic is quite the exaggeration. That being said, if OP feels it is, they are valid in their feelings.
My concluding question is:
Why is OP choosing STBFL address issues they have with the game when these issues are not isolated to only STBFL?
Thanks again for the STBFL talk!!!
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@jinx3d said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378432#Comment_3378432
now that i think about it doesnt spirit have ki in one or two of her addons?
You're correct! I spaced those. Thank you very much for the correction! I still think the premise stands; Spirit's power would not be negatively impacted to the extent of the other KI users (Legion, Ghostface, Wesker, Dredge, Artist, etc.)
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@jinx3d said:
no
killer instinct is tied to killer powers exclusively, and too many of them have it. Without it, Legion, Pyramid Head. Pinhead, Wesker, Nemesis, Ghostface, Skull Merchant, Dredge, and Artist, unless im forgetting someone, would all lose fairly crucial parts of their power. This would hurt ghostface, skull merchant, and legion the most-GF no longer sees where the survivor who revealed him is, losing info. skull merchant no longer sees/hears who is exposed and where without looking at the hud and her tracker,and legion would become the worst killer in the game, unable to get 5 hits unless the survivors are literally all afk and next to eachother
Agreed! Also, I noticed none of those killers were Nurse, Blight or Spirit; the killers who could probably use perks that counter their strengths opposed to the listed Killer Instinct using mid-tier killers' small tracking aspect of their powers.
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Incase you want a direct quote from a dev, Peanits addresses this topic here: Hot take that I made on twitter about Distortion. — BHVR
However, it mostly reiterates what others have already mentioned; "Killer instinct is reserved for killer powers and add-ons"... "a survivor perk countering killer instinct would disproportionally (to an unhealthy level) effect certain killers more than others". etc.
I still think it's an interesting discussion, however, I am against the idea of perks that counter KI.
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I just want to point out, nothing states its exclusive for this one-time event. It could always come to the store later or there could be future opportunities to receive/get this cosmetic.
I believe the devs have previously stated, that legacy prestige cosmetics on original characters are the only cosmetics that will not become available again. All other cosmetics (event, rift, prime gaming, etc.) have the opportunity to be added to the store in the future.
That said, there is no guarantee WHEN it will be available again. But this is almost certainly not the only opportunity for receiving this.
As mentioned, if you don't like it, don't support it.
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@TigerSnake said:
The amount of lobby dodging would be insane. No thanks.
Agreed! No thank you!
"skill rating" is a number designed for matchmaking purposes. My two reasons I dislike showing this number are:
1) no matchmaking is perfect, so stating DbD's matchmaking is bad, thus the number should be shown is not true. The matchmaking can be improved without showing the "hidden value" aka "skill rating".
2) we should keep player's psychological biases separate where possible. We don't need players adjusting out-of-game choices (to dodge or play the lobby they are queued with) or in-game choices (gameplay style & perks/addons/items/etc.) based on a number designed for quality matches. (Emphasis on designed for, again no system is perfect)
Ex: People already treat p100s (a # not associated with skill) as though it is a death sentence.
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@BabyShrimp said:
I've thought for a while that DBD has a bit of an aesthetic problem, but I think Skull Merchant really solidified it. I'm just gonna share my thoughts on it. Please feel free to comment what you think, maybe you think I'm wrong, that's okay. (Also if I'm writing in caps I'm not actually angry I'm just making a point that in my POV is obvious.)
Aesthetic is certainly an important part of a game. It helps set the tone and atmosphere, which obviously helps with the immersion. Horror games are no exception, I mean find me one person who likes horror, but doesn't like the vibes Silent Hill gives off. In fact, would Silent Hill 2 hit the same without it's lonely, creepy, liminal atmosphere? I don't think so.
Dead By Daylight had a creepy atmosphere at one point, I feel it's lost though. It's like the more it gets updated, the more mediocre, and normie it starts to feel. Dead By Daylight is literally a game about an eldritch being that sucks them into a realm so it can feed off their fear and hopelessness. The characters are literally faced with nightmarish killers in recreated horrifying places. Why should it not feel creepy, and grainy?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/F8254ZPXPPDD/old-ormond.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/6K0OJDKAMV7A/old-rotten-fields.png
Here we can see some glimpses into older maps. As you can see, IT'S ACTUALLY NIGHT TIME AS IT SHOULD BE IN A GAME CALLED "DEAD BY DAYLIGHT"!!! Do they not look more sinister, more like a place you are motivated to escape? Do they not fit the feeling of a place that's like a horror movie with an actual killer? What happened?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LF1S3GZRBIL0/new-ormond.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5AKQR8VZ1MJG/new-coldwind.png
WHY IS IT ALREADY DAYLIGHT?!?! WHY IS IT RELAXING?! The Legion is already not that intimidating, but they still fit DBD (IMO). The old Ormond was a cold, dark place, where this grungy, unhinged gang would hunt you down, and the old Coldwind, it was this eerie dark rotting field where a tragedy took place, and this maniac would chase you with a chainsaw. It's so bright now, so comforting, why? Lets get to the characters...
First of all, I don't mind a few gag skins, or more fancy skins, that's fine. I do have an issue with this.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/O32KM9FLPEH4/skullmerchant.png
Why is this modded Fallout 4 raider showing up alongside Leatherface, Michael Myers, The Doctor, or even The Huntress? I know the game isn't scary anymore, but there is nothing wrong with a moody horror aesthetic. A lot of people got into the game because they think it's cool to play as and against HORROR CHARACTERS! Why is it turning into Fortnite? We could have had a creepy deformed cyborg killer that actually fits the name "Skull Merchant" but instead we got millionaire Mary Sue manga lover...
Yes, I know the game isn't scary, I'm just focused solely on aesthetics and what fits the game and lore. What do you guys think? Again, I love hearing the rest of the community's thoughts. :D
Great discussion and points!
My opinion is as simple as this. I agree with you on maps and disagree on killers.
Maps = I miss most older maps compared to their newer reworked counterparts. Specifically, Coldwind Farm maps. That being said, I was quite impressed with the latest round of reworked maps and actually do like the aesthetics of Red Forest more now.
Killers = aesthetically I trust the Devs. If you would have told me they were adding a colorful K-pop star as a killer, I would have laughed. However, personally I think they made it work and well. I definitely prefer killers on a more monstrous level like Dredge & Demon. But I also think that one of the best parts of the Horror genre is that "Horror" can be attached to anything.
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I disagree. I think BHVR assuming that individuals are solely getting amazon prime/prime gaming for DbD content (that they may or may not like/use) would be naive. Additionally, locking prime gaming rewards behind exclusivity encourages a gambling style/FOMO manipulation of the players. Maybe "predatory" is a better term to describe that business model. Either way, its unhealthy.
Instead, it seems to be more of a collaboration between Amazon & BHVR. A collaboration where players with an active Amazon Prime/Prime Gaming membership (whether b/c of DbD or literally any other reason) can get access to exclusive cosmetics and in-game rewards that may or may not come to the in-game store eventually.
Additionally, just because cosmetics from Prime Gaming reward can and have come to the in-game store. The Devs have never guaranteed that ALL Prime Gaming cosmetics will come to the in-game store. And even if they do, there is no set timeline.
Personally, I think them pushing Hadie's Prime Gaming cosmetic was more due to the community calling BS on the lack of cosmetics she was getting compared to other recently released survivors.
Personally, my issue(s) with Prime Gaming DbD rewards are the following:
- lack of consistency (ex: 1st was 2x artist skins; 2nd was 1x blight outfit [while these are different, I am okay with this due to amount of detail in single blight outfit]; but then we've gotten a single charm; we've gotten a weapon cosmetic; and rift fragments)
- Giving cosmetics to characters who DON'T need them (looking at you Feng). Seriously, they already release Feng cosmetics left and right, why was it necessary to give her a Prime Gaming outfit? Within 2 months Feng received 2x full rift outfits, 1x NEW Lunar New Year (when she already has another one), and a Prime Gaming outfit for that month. I am sorry but that is TOO FREAKING MUCH.
Overall, I appreciate the bonus rewards for simply having Prime Gaming (thru amazon prime), however I still have complaints of my own. That being said, at the end of the day, none of it is why I am paying for Amazon Prime. The Prime Gaming rewards may as well be the mint you receive when leaving a restaurant.
Great Discussion Topic Though. I empathize with your sentiment, even if I disagree.
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@Caiman said:
Remove the self-healing, that's the real problem. If it made survivors healing each other really fast, that'd be fine because at least that's two survivors occupied doing something other than a generator. It's the infinite self-heals that allow for uber-efficient survivor play that is the source of the issue. Take that out and let Circle of Healing simply be a really strong buff for altruism exclusively.
Agreed! Nerf self-heal aspect, encourage TEAM aspect. One suggestion I agree heavily with is:
Remove self-healing; potentially buff group healing to compensate; also show the aura of injured survivors in the circle of healing area to incentivize/communicate teammates to come heal you.
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2 things:
- I believe in another post a Dev mentioned it is not turned on presently, as they want people to experience the new map(s) so it has an encouraged chance of matches going there. I think they mentioned it should be on sometime next week.
- I'm quite jealous, I played 6 matches and didn't get the new Macmillan once. However, I did get coal tower and groaning storehouse. 4 back-to-back does sound like it could get old though.
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@Chadku said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365029#Comment_3365029
You don´t need to check the known bugs section if it´s about cosmetics looking the same with barely any differences it could be intentional like Haddie´s heads only changing the color of the jewelry instead of her hair streak.
Thanks for the feedback, I did check that. But Renato doesn't have any jewelry, so it was very easy to rule out for this instance.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
It's been confirmed a bug, his base head is supposed to be different but it currently the uncommon rarity head
Awesome! That's good to know, thank you very much for the information. Next time I'll be sure to review known bugs prior to posting.
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@Mandy said:
This roadmap shows what will come out during that chapter - so between 6.6.0 and 6.7.0, it is not necessarily going to be coming out the day of the release.
Just to clarify: There is not going to be a 6.8.0 or a 6.9.0 (since first number is the year), therefore, the span between 6.7.0 and 7.0.0 is a single chapter, correct?
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Twins were confirmed during a livestream around the time of the Legion/Ghostface rework/add-on pass to be the next in line for a rework and some general TLC.
However, they bumped Nurse ahead of the Twins. Not sure if it was due to community noise regarding nurse, or complications regarding reworking the Twins. My guess is a partial combination of both, plus some other factors we are likely not aware of (nor do I think we need to be).
I am eagerly waiting for the Twins rework/update. I don't feel there is enough available data about which killers should be next (aside from Twins), so I trust BHVR's decision. I just always want the reworks to be more ambitious changes that might make things spicy and require a hotfix, opposed to safety soft number tweak that can sometimes feel unimpactful on an individual's perspective level (opposed to an aggregate of data from 1000s of matches).
I know he is known for having one of the larger reworks, but I would be super interested to see what a reworked Freddy looks like in today's DbD environment.
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360273#Comment_3360273
it does. thank you. i must have missed that stream.
Of course! Happy to help!
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360212#Comment_3360212
My entire point is that matchmaking doesn't work and you are completely at the mercy of your team. I had a game a few days ago vs a Nurse. I ran her for 3 minutes at the start before she gave up. She went to my team and 2 blink'd 2 players. She removed them from the game and the meg hid. I ran her for literally 10 minutes before she gave up and on me entirely and found the meg. She ended the game with a 4k.
So now I ask this one simple question. Show me a single PVP game that is does this. Imagine if League was so utterly broken that a new player is allowed to beat a diamond player. The entire issue here is that if my team is bad I lose. My mmr goes down and the problem is still there. Am I not better than this Nurse when I ran her for nearly 15 mins without going down? Well this system says no. It says that me running the Nurse for 15 mins and not going down means I'm trash because I didn't escape. I didn't escape because of my team and now I get the honor of getting even worse players. The old system allowed me to get a pip and move up in rank to get better games.
I am going to have to shout out my dude Devil_Hit11 for being more concise than my wordy ass.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360167#Comment_3360167
I find the main issue with the current system is in soloq. I find that I'm completely at the mercy of how well my team can do. If they don't do gens, I lose. If they can't run the killer then the killer will never chase me and remove those players quicky, so I lose.
This is part of team-based games. you lose and win as a team. your teammate failure become your own failure.
"This is part of team-based games. You lose and win as a team. Your teammate's failures become your own failures."
I believe all, or atleast most, PvP games you win and lose as a team.
As for the "a new player could never beat a diamond player in league". That is not true. What is more likely true is "a new LoL account cannot be matched against a diamond LoL account". As a new Lol PLAYER could jump on their friend's Diamond Account, get matched with other diamond players, then win by either being hard carried, having their team capitalize on opponents' mistakes, or maybe the opponents aren't trying (diamond players can play casually if they choose).
I think it is unrealistic (and incorrect) to make the assumption that "rank up = better matches". More data points should equal better matches regardless of whether you win and rank up or lose and derank.
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@wydyadoit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359976#Comment_3359976
what is the "win condition" for killers and survivors? just curious.
i think a lot of players would stop complaining if they knew those two goals.
although many would probably argue against it no matter what it is.
i'm assuming the win condition for a survivor is to... well... survive?
and the win condition for a killer is... or at least it should be to kill the survivors if we're trying to avoid the whole... both sides winning thing
if that's the case then one could say that each killer is playing 4 matches at a time while the survivors are only playing 1.
if a survivor dies that's a win for the killer. so in a single match the killer could get 4 wins. 4 losses. or any combination of the 4.
but if that's the case then do bleed outs count? mori's? special executions? or is it hooks only?
Unfortunately, I think you are wrong. I believe it is quite common knowledge in the community that with the MMR is Kills = win for killer, escapes (ie. "surviving") = win for survivor. There was a whole fiasco (not the Lupe kind) regarding the whole thing. This was explained during a livestream where the devs discussed MMR system and addressed community questions. Peanits also explained that above. And indeed, MMR wise, one match of DbD is measured as 4x 1v1s (although it is more nuanced than that with regard to survivor; please see Peanits explanation).
Although, to answer your questions for "what counts" (these are to the best of my knowledge):
kill by Mori = count as killer W
kill by Bleedout = count as killer W
kill by Special Execution = count as Killer W
kill by hook = count as Killer W
Hatch Escape = NEUTRAL (neither killer nor survivor are considered winner or loser) ; again remember this is based on 1v1, so if hatch is involved there are 3 other 1v1 where either Survivor won or killer won.
DC = I am uncertain of, but I imagine it considers the DCer the loser.
Hope that helps!
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@Trollinmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360134#Comment_3360134
A Survivor can do things that earns them emblem points without the Killer losing any and vice versa, meaning the end result of the match could still be considered a win for both.
Wouldn't that mean you both move up in rank and face harder opponents. Your team would be of higher skill along with the killer/ the survivors you face are now harder to down and do gens faster.
You may have been chased all match and done really well, but because you didn't fix generators or unhook anyone, the emblem system might spit out an unsatisfying result.
Wouldn't the emblem system actually have a better chance of removing this though? The system already gives credit for gen progress while in chase. Might not be perfect but better than what we currently have imo.
the emblem system is completely independent. It solely focuses on your performance and your performance alone, it doesn't factor in how good your opponent may be.
But isn't that ideal? Like if I move up in rank my opponent is better thus harder to do well in chases. I find the main issue with the current system is in soloq. I find that I'm completely at the mercy of how well my team can do. If they don't do gens, I lose. If they can't run the killer then the killer will never chase me and remove those players quicky, so I lose. I feel that the old system I could work towards getting my pips and it was less of an issue with getting weak teams. The new system feels very frustrating when playing soloq because I feel it's more of how bad/good my team is rather than my personal skill. If I'm better than the killer the killer can ignore me and chase the weaker links and then finish me off last bypassing my skill as a survivor.
Hey Trollinmon, not sure if you're trollin' but Peanits posts address most of these:
To your first question:
"It's crucial for a matchmaking system to have a clear win condition. The winners rating needs to go up, and the losers' ratings need to go down. If it's a draw, they stay the same (although this isn't common). If this is not the case and both people can win simultaneously, you end up in situations where people can endlessly climb in rating rendering the entire matchmaking system useless. It would quickly become a reflection of someone's playtime more than their actual abilities." Peanits
To your second question:
"And because there's no way to accurate take every factor into consideration, it does this by using a proxy condition. Yes, kills or escapes are not the only thing that makes a good player good! But if you're amazing in a chase and can last for several minutes, more often than not, that will lead to a win. If you play well, your chances of escaping will rise. Or if a Killer plays well, their chances of killing the Survivors will rise. This isn't something that's exclusive to Dead by Daylight either, just about every game will use a similar metric for matchmaking (even if it doesn't show it). You'd be hard pressed to find a game that successfully factors in dozens of things rather than using the outcome of a match." Peanits
To the third point:
Specifically, "the emblem system is completely independent. It solely focuses on your performance and your performance alone, it doesn't factor in how good your opponent may be." and you asked "But isn't that ideal?".
I'll try to answer this one. When trying to match players in a PvP games, you match based on defeating opponents in matches and moving up. Not by demonstrating particular & finite skills that are involved in the match/game.
- FPS Games - MMR based on wins, not headshots
- MOBAS - I believe while they may take KDA into consideration, there is a weighted effect or multiplier based on whether you win or lose
- Racing (do these have mmr) - If they have MMR probably based on who won/lost, not how many times you crash.
The thing those all have in common are that the overall MMR is comparing the opposing people and their results (winner(s) and loser(s)). If all people wanted to do was prove how good they are in isolation, not considering their opponent, shouldn't they be proving themselves in a single player game?
Hope that clears any confusion.
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This is quite the interesting discussion. I'd like to add some of my own thoughts and opinions.
- On the survivor side 2 of the strongest types of perks are 1. Exhaustion (Sprint Burst) and 2. Second Chance (Deliverance).
- DH is one of the few perks that provides BOTH of these perks benefits (adrenaline being another but a healthier one IMO)
- Eruption can be countered with info, but SWF is not required for that info. Fogwise+Bond (or many other perk combinations) can assist with knowing when you teammate is about to go down (even in soloq). I consistently run Bond in soloq and can often tell when a teammate is about to go down.
- DH is unhealthy for multiple reasons, but is also a fun and powerful perk (thus why it is so divisiveness)
- Personally, I think DH is too strong seeing as it is so strong and frequently used that even in a game without any DH, the killer has basically been "trained" to play around it. (This is a difficult topic that isn't so black and white though. There is a reasonable level of "playing around perks/items in anticipation" before they are confirmed. However, DH has far passed this "reasonable level IMO)
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@GreyBigfoot said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3353859#Comment_3353859
If that Lunar New Year outfit Feng got was anything to go by, then no, that went away before it was able to be purchased with shards.
This was discussed by BHVR when they explained the Event Cosmetics becoming "limited time". Basically, after BHVR's 2 cosmetic updates (1. auric cell nonlicensed cosmetics being purchasable w/ shards & 2. limited time event cosmetics) Event cosmetics will be introduced one year (Ex: Halloween TP Dwight from 2022) for auric cells only, then available the next year (Halloween 2023 event) for Auric cells and shards.
Not sure if any in-game events such as Halloween, Winter, or LNY last over 4 weeks. But if they do it seems, that the new event cosmetics won't be available for shards until a year after release.
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@Moz said:
The problem with exhaustion perks in general is with their design. Like Deliverance, second chance perks should require some sort of effort on the part of the survivor to activate. They either need some sort of meaningful negative affix upon use or they need to be earned. As of right now they still have neither of those things.
Something as simple as complete 1 gen to active X exhaustion perk would at least be a meaningful addition. It would require survivors to not play so risky in the early game and equate to more dropped pallets early on.
Great input! I agree with a lot of this. However, I'd like to point out that Dead Hard's "issue" is that it is BOTH an exhaustion perk and a second chance perk. Getting a killer to miss an M1/M2 attack with Lithe/Balanced/or Sprint Burst hardly qualifies as a second chance.
Personally, I don't think most exhaustion perks need an "activation requirement (besides being hurt,)" and/or "negative effect upon use". However, I do think any perk that qualifies as BOTH Exhaustion and Second Chance definitely should have atleast one of the two (activation requirement or negative effect).
Personally, I think Adrenaline is a great example of an Exhaustion+Second Chance perk. (I understand we all have different opinions and some may feel Adren. is OP).
But Adrenaline is both an exhaustion perk and a second chance perk.
"Activation Requirement" = Either as a team complete 5 gens or survive until End Game Collapse.
Exhaustion Perk = Get Haste Effect
Second Chance Perk = Get Health State
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@miniwengsel said:
The last chapter and the upcomming shows, that BHVR dont care about the game and the players. We as the players need to do something, to send the message, that they cant do everything they want with the game, without hear to the community.
To send this kind of message we need to show changes in the thinks they are intrested in. Money. Money sems to be the only think they care about. So what I will do is I will not buy the new chapter and grind all of the shards for the charaters. I would rather grind all 105h fro 27000 shards, then give any credit for this chapter.
My questtion to everyone who read this.
Will you grind with me?
I am sorry, but I completely disagree with this. Here are some recent examples.
1) community wants Eruption changed since it is such a problem.
Solution: Devs annihilate the perk. Specifically, they removed incap. as the community requested
2) community kept complaining that EVERY new killer just had "antiloop" power.
knight = antiloop with guards
wesker = antiloop w/ dash
dredge = antiloop w/ remnant
onryo = antiloop w/ passive phasing and teleport speed boost
artist = antiloop w/ crows
pinhead = antiloop w/ chains
....
Solution: Devs gave killer w/ ZERO antiloop outside of addons
3) community wants new maps and more map diversity
Solution 1: on top of Realm Beyond updating Red Forest, they added a ton of new map elements to Shelter Woods essentially making it a new map. (Personally, I would have preferred a new MacMillan map and keeping shelter woods, but they can't please everyone).
Solution 2: Devs are implementing Map Repeat Avoidance system.
Clearly, they are listening. The real truth is they cannot please everyone. For every change, there will be a population of players who hate the change and wish it remained the same. Second, the devs cannot address everyone's concerns and issues simultaneously.
Personally, I still hate these things:
- Feng gets WAY too many cosmetics. Lunar New Year 2023 (timeframe, not event), she got at least 3 cosmetics.
- Twins still get little to no love or communication (although I am grateful that they fixed the gamebreaking bug)
- etc.
It's okay to dislike the chapter and you're entitled to feel however you'd like. But, stating the devs don't listen is false. Enjoy your grinding for shards. I'll be purchasing the chapter as I do with every other chapter. Personally, $15 is less valuable to me than 105hr of my life.
Thank you for the discussion/thread! It was a good read!
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@Pulsar said:
Everything tbh
Lucky you! Changing everything about the Twins makes them a new killer. And it seems like we will get a new killer any day now on the PTB.
Twins Changes:
1) Definitely Toy sword basekit!
2) Definitely significant decrease in switching time. Personally, I think it should be lowered both after downing someone and and just general switching. However, those two switch times can be different than one another.
3) Finally, I personally want charlotte to have SOME power. She should be more than an M1 killer since she is the only part you can cosmetically change. Doesn't need to be a lot. Just ANYTHING!
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@Gamall said:
Don't think that DH, as well as other perks previously reworked in last July's massive patch, will be touched again
False, seeing as how Eruption was changed in last July's massive patch.
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/363918/thank-you-twins-are-playable-again
The issue with the aura is logged at least, I just checked in on it - hopefully fixed in the next update but I can't guarantee that at this stage.
Thank you very much for the update! And thank you to all the Devs who got the main bug fixed! ^_^
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@maschinen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339749#Comment_3339749
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339764#Comment_3339764
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3339766#Comment_3339766
Oh so this is okay then?
https://i.imgur.com/lhCuq4L.png
they heavily buff survivors by giving them gen progression indicator but no buffs to killers right?
Just an FYI
Your "evidence" of them "heavily buffing survivors" in a bugfix patch by including generator progress to survivor HUD is not a survivor buff in a hotfix patch and is a bugfix.
6.5.0 patch notes found here: 6.5.0 | Mid-Chapter - BHVR
At the bottom under "Known Issues".
It's okay to be frustrated with the current state of the Knight or any killer. But a community manager with BHVR took the time to explain why it was not addressed here. Rather than appreciate the feedback, you attack them by calling them out falsely for hypocrisy.
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@Dinan said:
yeah but why cant they just simply leave chase and switch target?
The Sunk Cost Fallacy.
Definition: "the human tendency to stick with endeavors in which we've already invested time, money, or other resources even when changing course would be the more logical choice."
Literally has nothing to do with you. It's human.
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I think it'll be original.
I am generally quite torn between licensed vs original. Personally, I love having them add licensed killers and getting to interact with them in game. However, in general, I find original killer powers more interesting to play with (Wesker and Demo being outliers).
If its original I want Vampire or Werewolf, but these seem like something they would save for Halloween time (or not due to avoid horror stereotypes). This leaves me relatively in the dark in terms of what the next original killer would be.
If its licensed, I'd really hope for something big. Alien or Predator would be amazing, but those seem rather distant. I think a licensed killer from a video game franchise is more likely (Evil Within, Dead Space, Bioshock, etc.). Personally, I doubt it would be FNAF (seems a tad too controversial atm).
Regardless of who/what the killer is, I am struggling to even think of their power. Reviewing the past few killer's powers:
***"DoT" = passive slowdown/something that makes survivor weaker, rather than general "Damage over time" usage
***PS = Power Spike or something that makes killer stronger
Knight = Summoner/AI assisted
Wesker = dash + "DoT"
Dredge = 2-part teleport - (return to location + teleport to ingame objects) + PS
Onryo = Stealth + Teleport + "DoT"
Artist = Skillshot (long range)
Pinhead = Skillshot (mid-range) + "DoT"
Nemesis = Skillshot (short range) + "DoT" + AI assisted
.....
Maybe a stealth killer since we have not had one since Onryo. Or a powerspike based killer since Dredge is the only one of the past 7. Finally, could be a set-up/trap-based killer (however, these seem rarer, so my guess is probably not).
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Oh geez! This thread has a ton to unpack. With a ton of great arguments on both sides. I'm just going to not address anyone individually and share my thoughts on the matter. My apologies if any of this was already stated.
Killer bans = Bad idea
Something to increase killer diversity in matches = Great idea!
Solution should be something to encourage the killer player to choose a different killer (specifically an under picked killer). NOT, another player dictating who the killer is allowed to play.
Both sides control how the game is played, because both sides are accountable for their own actions. Saying X player controls the match is just not true. It is a pvp game, all players actions are going to influence (not control/dictate) other players actions.
If a killer is seen too much, it is up to the developer to recognize this and adjust the killer respectively. Not to give players the control (outside of a killer player choosing to play or not play said killer).
Most games with "character bans" are either symmetrical (LoL/Dota) so BOTH teams lose access to the banned character or are semi-A-symmetrical (R6 Siege) in which case BOTH sides lose access to the playable character. This is not the case with DbD.
Overall, this game is too divided to allow the side-A to "control" what side-B can bring. (Map offerings are a big enough issue already).
If players are bored or if players don't like going against blights, nurses, or any other "same killer" all the time there are some options:
- play a different game - you are playing a pvp game and asking to dictate other players access to their own content.... But seriously, the same game can get boring, it is okay to take a break and play something else.
- switch sides - maybe if you are a survivor main and not enjoying it, playing killer and even playing the killer you want banned might show you why they are so common. (Ex: blight is a ton of fun, with a high skill ceiling. All the fun of Hillbilly but you can actually get kills).
- Play a different style - if you SWF, play solo; if you play solo, try and find a SWF. Maybe stop running DH, CoH, PT, OtR, etc. and run something different. (Ex: Pebble, Distortion, Head-On, Flash Bang, etc.)
- etc.
I hope my input is well received and not taken as hostile. I tried to keep insults out of the discussion and stay on topic. If I strayed from the topic or my opinions somehow offended someone, my apologies. I do hope a "killer diversity solution" is implemented to address this and is well received by the majority of both sides of the community.
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@Blueberry said:
I wouldn’t want a system that blocks same killers in a row as that would drastically increase queue times especially at high mmr. However killer incentives to play less popular killers sounds like a great idea, especially if it was Iri shards. Probably would have to be a very small amount of shards though. Still a great idea.
Agreed!
An increase in queue times is what originally got me thinking that the proposed solution for solving map repeats was not an ideal solution for solving killer repeats, despite seeing many in the community state otherwise.
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@Gandor said:
These incentives might screw up stats a little. You no longer get the information of which killer needs to be reworked the most, because players play that killer more because of incentives.
The other thing is, we partially already have this system in game. It's called dailies. It would be just a bit better if the game prioritized less played killers more (also this one changes stats a little less, because it's limited to 1-2 games at "weird" killer + allows to reroll for "bad" daily which in itself is interesting information).
Also, great points! Thank you!
First, I'll address the latter portion as I think it ties in to the first. You are correct, this seems to be what dailies are accomplishing. However, from what I can tell these incentives are rarely enough to encourage other players to play outside their usual playstyles. Outside of content creators who are just looking for any small goal, it seems the majority of the player base simply reroll the dailies not in-line with how they want to play or were going to play. I do agree it would be a bit better if Killer Dailies prioritized low pick rate killers.
Also, "this system being dailies" addresses Ithiria's issue as a system to encourage both sides to play outside the meta. Just not enough to make a noticeable difference.
That being said, if dailies provided better incentive to more effectively get players to change who they played, then it would likely skew the stats more.
Thank you for the comment, I appreciate the critiques and pointing out some oversights!
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@Ithiria said:
Does this apply to survivor perks too or are only killers going to be given incentives for suffering and not playing meta?
Great point! I think for this, the idea is not addressing "the perk meta" and that would require a different solution. Similar to a more regular "meta shift patch" similar to the one DbD received with patch 6.1.0.
The incentive to "suffer and not play meta" would be for the iri shards to get cosmetics/characters. However, if your point is what about survivor mains, this is indeed an issue. As if someone only plays survivor, they should also have a similar system to grind for iri shards.
Thank you for pointing out this potential flaw!
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333400#Comment_3333400
See I dont get this logic, it makes more sense to tell the people who experience the bug to not play them until it gets fixed, than to punish the players who play them with no issues.
Currently up to 75 Twins matches in the last week and a half with no sign of the getting stuck bug.
You say, "it makes more sense to tell people who experience the bug to not play them until it gets fixed". To this point, BHVR/Devs have done the opposite of this. The most recent correspondences from BHVR to their community (via twitter and patch notes) state:
Patch: 6.5.0 - twins immobilization bug is fixed
Patch 6.5.1 - no mention of twins bug still being present
Stating you fixed the bug and not acknowledging it is still present (which they clearly know since every bug report gets closed) encourages people to play the killer, or atleast assume they are fixed and working as intended.
While I agree they should be killswitched just like nurse was. I would also fully support not killswitching the twins but instead a twitter post/dev message/ "any correspondence with community at all" stating something like....
"we know the twins are still bugged and we are working to fix them. If you are someone who experiences this bug, please don't play them, or play at your own risk"
Finally, you say killswitching the twins would "punish the players with no issues" but this is not true. A punishment is the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense(oxford dict.). But, no player has committed an offense regarding this issue. Killswitching the twins would inconvenience you though. Just trying to clarify as your "killswitch = punishment" comes across as playing the victim (whether intentional or not) for someone who has not been inconvenienced for at least 75+ matches.
I am happy you are able to play 75+ twins matches in the past 2 weeks and more happy you love sharing this fact with every single DbD forum post regarding the twins bug and the handling of the bug.
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Great post and discussion! Agreed! Honestly, my biggest issue by far is the lack of communication regarding the twins and their issues. Why can't they comment on a forum post instead of closing every single one? or, how long could it possibly take to make a quick tweet stating:
"twins fix taking longer than expected because _________"
"twins rework taking longer than expected because ____________"
"twins will not be killswitched despite nurse being killswitched for a VERY similar gamebreaking bug because ____________."
They could even lie or fudge the "because" reason behind these decisions and/or the estimated time (ETA) of fix/rework. Even if they give an ETA and need to push it due to unforeseen difficulties. Any communication regarding this is better than silence and ignoring the community.
Thank you very much for this forum post/thread. I really hope the conversation continues enough to get some sort of action or communication from BHVR/devs regarding the twins.
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Agreed! My biggest issue with the Twins (including bugs, issues, delayed rework, etc.) is not the lack of fixing, it is the lack of communication.
Even if its just "public relations bull shite" and not the full story. Or even if they can't give a timeline/ETA. Communicating with the community AT ALL regarding the twins would be extremely appreciated.
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Thank you for your response! That is very interesting. Additionally, I am quite jealous, as I wish I could play The Twins without them bugging out. However, Charlotte consistently becomes incapable of moving when switching back from victor. Thus, I am forced to either use victor and not play the match while waiting for survivors to do all generators or be an M1 killer the whole match.
What platform were you playing on for your 15+ matches? I am curious if the bug is platform specific.
Additionally, most of my concerns with their present bug is post patch 6.5.0 (midchapter released 1/24/2022) so unfortunately your timeline does not aid their present issue. However, I would love to see your present gameplay of them not bugging out if you'd like to share a YT link to your Twins gameplay post patch 6.5.0. I would gladly change my perspective and opinions if the bug is something only a small population of the Twin's players are experiencing.
Thank you again!
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Great post! I also reported this bug back in February post patch 4.5.2. Additionally, I provide video evidence of the bug.
Linked Here: Doctor/Calm Spirit Interaction Bug-Patch 4.5.2 — Dead By Daylight
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Agreed! First the Calm Spirit bug where the survivor would scream/visual indicator when they'd step into a Trapper's bear trap. Thankfully, they fixed that in 4.5.2. But now this. Hope it gets fixed soon!