Moonras2
Moonras2
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Im afraid something like this would also have to come with changes to the red stain. It would need to always be pointing in the way the killer is moving instead of the way they are facing. While it is simple the red stain is a lot like check spots. Newer players don't know how to use it or switch up the direction they are facing. Veteran players tend to use it quite well. Without check spots at that level it may lead to a lot more free hits than actual mind games for both sides. For killer it would be a choice to turn, for survivors it would be a guess on what the killer is doing.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865612#Comment_3865612
I could be overlooking it but I don't see any where that says this is a win or loss condition of the game though. Just a loss of MMR.
And what is a "loss of MMR" according to you? Because for almost any other single ranked game in existence, a loss in rating is produced by a lost match, and a gain by a win. And I have literally shown you how the MMR win condition works for the killer and how you only win if you do more than a 3K. With a 1K you lose less MMR, but you have still lost.
why people want to calculate one side individually and the other as a single team or entity. It basically throws out draws on one side which either inflates their win or loss number
Because it is a totally asymmetrical game, which needs totally asymmetrical win conditions. And it is not the people, it's the devs of the game. That's why for the killer is a 1v4, but for each of the survivors it is a 1v1 against the killer.
Also, you have the numbers in one of the latest videos from Choy, which I'm not going to post as the last time was removed for some reason.
I simply call it a loss of MMR. In most of the other games there are clear modes for ranked and unranked play. In those I would say yes MMR is pretty accurate on whether it was a win or loss. In this game though, it is a mix of casual and competitive players. MMR can't calculate that I was trying my best but my teammate did 3 tome challenges and stood in a corner. The game also doesn't punish players for throwing matches. It couldn't anyway without separating it.
The problem with the MMR is the lack of separate modes or clear win condition. It's just a matchmaking thing to keep games more fair... That person doing the tome challenge may have felt they won because they finished their challenges. Also consider players who don't even know about the MMR. They are basing their wins, most likely, off the emblems and end game tally screens. Which is also fair, I do this a lot too because I find it more fun.
To the last point, it is just as much on the devs. By not defining clear win conditions and by lumping everything into one. Peanits also once stated that they tend not to balance around winrates because everyone has their own definition of what a win is.
Edit: Disregard that last part of you want. I think we both know it's on the devs we just both see it dicferently
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865591#Comment_3865591
Fun fact: My example is exactly how the base MMR rating works for killers (as there are other factors like the duration of the match and the other side MMR that influence the amount of MMR you gain or lose, as stated in the wiki).
So I'm throwing them all into one game, because that is exactly how a match in DbD works for the killer in MMR terms, and this has been confirmed by both dataminers and/or cheat developers (which, funnily enough, has access to the MMR rating of everybody when BHVR won't show it to us themselves):
- 0K = -20 MMR
- 1K = -10 MMR
- 2K = 0 MMR
- 3K = +10 MMR
- 4K = +20 MMR
So, again, have you won? Have you gained 10 and lost 30, or have you lost 10 because you lost the match?
Im not finding any of those numbers you posted on that page. I don't really want to go into numbers I don't know but, if a 0k is-20 and 1k is -10. Then it doesn't matter if I lost Mmr as it's just like I said above. By killing that one survivor I lost less mmr. I'm assuming a 0k is the starting point since survivors all start alive. So by killing one, I've gained 10 MMR. Doesn't mean I won't lose MMR overall, as that's basically the fee to enter the challenge.
The page does literally say that they are like mini trials though. But if we go by this:
"Killers gain points towards their MMR for killing Survivors in ranked Trials and lose points if they manage to escape:
Killing 0 or 1 Survivor(s) is considered a loss towards MMR.
Killing 2 Survivors is considered a draw.
Killing 3 or 4 Survivors is considered a win towards MMR."
Then I would call it at face value. That a 0-1k is considered a loss to MMR, etc...
I could be overlooking it but I don't see any where that says this is a win or loss condition of the game though. Just a loss of MMR. A hidden number that has other factors that also decide how it is calculated.
I promise I do understand what you are trying to say. And to be very honest ive been typing this so long I've forgotten what I'm even replying about lol. I don't understand though, why people want to calculate one side individually and the other as a single team or entity. It basically throws out draws on one side which either inflates their win or loss number. It also throws out balancing as a team if we want to consider things individually
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865573#Comment_3865573
Alright, let's use your logic here: You are playing a match where you need to complete 4 minigames. If you don't complete any minigame, you have to pay 20 dollars. If you only complete 1 minigame, you have to pay 10. If you complete 2 minigames, you don't have to pay anything but don't earn anything either. If you complete 3 minigames, you earn 10 dollars, and completing all minigames, you earn 20 dollars.
You play the match and only complete 1 minigame. Now, have you won the match? Did you "gain 10 dollars" by completing that single minigame, or have you lost and now have to pay 10 dollars?
And again, you can look at it however you want. Won't change the previously stated facts.
This is not the logic I proposed. You aren't using separate mini games. You are throwing them all into one game because you are lumping the win condition based on the result of all 4 mini games. Now, if you said that I was playing four individual mini games, and for each mini game I would either have to pay $10 or win $10, I would say that I won $10. But lost $30.
Ie, I won one game and lost 3
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865567#Comment_3865567
But you lost the overall competition and will be punished for it by losing MMR, because guess what? For the killer, is not a series of "mini events", it is a full 1v4 match even if for each of the survivors it is a 1v1 against the killer.
So, if the killer does a 1K, the killer lost, 3 survivors won, and another one also lost. That's it. It is not that hard to understand.
The killer did win against that survivor though. They not only won, they gained MMR for it. The loss of MMR had nothing to do with that win but with the loss from the 3 others. It's one way to look at it.
Personally I still look at it as team vs team but to eachh their own
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865557#Comment_3865557
No, it is not, because a win for the killer is a 3K, so a 2K doesn't means 2 wins for the killer.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865552#Comment_3865552
But you didn't win anything, because for the killer, the match is not a 1v1 with each survivor, it is a 1v4. So, in any case, a 1K means that your loss is less severe, but it is still a loss and is not any kind of win for you.
What you are saying is like being second to last in a competition and claiming that you won just because you weren't the last one, so it could be worst. Dude, you have still lost.
No what I'm saying is it's closer to a competition with different game modes. A series of mini events or mini games. You may lose the overall competition but still win some of the games
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865491#Comment_3865491
So, your point is that even if you do a 1K in a match (which, per win conditions, means you have lost and your MMR will decrease), you have still won just because you lose "more" by not killing anybody than by killing 1 survivor? Is that it?
Because if it is not, I don't know how what you said supports your claim that "individual kills ARE wins for the killer", even when they have literally lost according to the game win conditions and will be penalized for it. And if it is, saying that you win even when losing sounds logical to you?
I think he's saying that your MMR will decrease based on the 3 escapes. But you actually gain MMR from the 1k. So the overall decrease is not as significant as say a 4 escape. You essentially won one but lost 3.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865237#Comment_3865237
I'm not basing my position on win condition on the MMR system, that's backwards. The MMR system was implemented in line with the game's already existing win conditions.
I find it interesting (and, admittedly, mildly annoying) that people presume there's no win condition for this game, because to me it seems obvious that there is. They're online matches that end when one side meets their goal, and everything in the game is geared towards those sides meeting their goals. I don't see how you could interpret that any way but those goals being the win condition.
I'd be tempted to say it's because the game doesn't say "You Win" or "You Lose" when those goals are met/not met, but that seems pretty arbitrary, I don't want to assume that's the opposing position, it feels bad faith somehow.
This game does have the potential for degrees of victory in line with its win conditions, too - your bloodpoints, emblem scores, and exact kills on killer can make the difference between a narrow victory and a crushing one, if you're inclined to interpret it that way. The game does have win conditions, though, it's impossible for it to not.
If helps any, the way I look at it is team vs team. But if we look at each survivor individually then you can't just look at the win rate. As the loss rate becomes extremely high. Each 3-4k becomes 3 to 4 losses per match. Since there seems to be more 4ks than any other outcome this would be a lot of losses. It also throws out draws for the survivor side when they are accounted for individually.
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@Mandy said:
This is a very good point, it is something we are aware of. For killers they have to learn one character - for survivors they have to learn how to play against all of them and when things change that can be hard to manage / learn.
DbD is complex, it's not easy on either side - there's a fair bit of skill involved on both sides, the game is most definitely not easy, it only appears easy when you're not very experienced in the game…it's deceptive.
Any ideas for how to make things easier for players and I'm all ears (no dbd pun intended), as there will undoubtably be other killers that have more complex powers.
I don't know that it would help any but maybe the first time, or first few times, someone plays against a certain killer, they will see a quick snippet or video on the killer instead of the loading screen. I know that the description on the loading screen displays some info. Perhaps a 15-30 second clip of a killers power or ability may help. An added audio description wouldn't hurt either. Also make it so when the escape key, or start button, is pressed there will be a new icon that can be hovered over to show the killers power description.
None of this is a real replacement for practice but extra info never hurts.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852248#Comment_3852248
This could also be a reason. You can always burn out.
I'm more guided by the principle that the surviving side is interested in having fun. While the killers are focused on winning.
The main thing here is who ultimately remains on the killer's side? Apparently only people who think about winning and killing. Only this type of player still finds DBD fun on the killer's side.
Honestly, I could agree with this to an extent. I can say that I usually tried harder to win as survivor. Not because I wanted to win but because I didn't want to cause my teammates to lose.
Basekit unbreakable might be more fun for the survivor role but it could possibly ruin the killer side. There are some instances where I hate slugging but there's many times it is either the best or only play to be made.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Who is to blame that the killer's side is preferred only by people who want to win? The rest of the players were driven away by nerfs. It is quite natural that the most persistent with a very unpleasant character will remain on the killer's side in the game. Such killers are used to overcoming difficulties.
The right question would be. Where did the chase killers and 12 hooks go? After all, if the killer is easy to play. Why does the survivor lobby look like an eternal holiday of sad tactics? Why do we get a 100 prestige Nurse who plays as if her life depends on it? Perhaps because the chase killers and 12 hooks simply do not play on the killer's side.
I mean that noble killers are in the minority. Being noble is simply unprofitable. But campers and tunnelers are legion.
I can only speak from my own experiences but as more of a casual player, I wasn't driven away by nerfs. I've more or less quit playing because of boredom on the killer side. It either felt like I was steam rolling people or every other match someone would dc and it would become a farming simulator. Even the matches that I would consider a loss didn't make me feel stressed out or anything like they use to. It just feels a lot like burnout.
I quit playing survivor because I just simply don't find the survivor role fun anymore. There are too many things that can happen and too much to depend on in this role.
That being said, I was really enjoying 2v8 with my brother. I just can't stand to wait so long in queue. It felt fresh anyway. I don't know how much we won or lost. It just felt chaotic and fun again.
Back on topic. I do understand where people are coming from. Slugging has always had it's moments though. The old silent spirit, starstruck nurse, etc... I think too much stuff has been nerfed for the sake of balance, and a more competitive play, that it's always going to lead to a play style someone doesn't like. It just seems to be on finding which play styles people can tolerate more.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3850331#Comment_3850331
Because your solutions to killers having "overpowered" stuff is to give survivors overpowered stuff. That's literally what the 8-second DS change would be. The perk was already game breaking at 3 seconds. People just needed to go down near actual loops, instead of relying on a 5-second stun to get them across the map. Either way, the perk's strength is in the killer getting stunned and losing all his pressure in an instant, AND he now has to chase that survivor an additional time to kill them. If he doesn't take that chase, he wasted a chase and got stunned for nothing. Taking more than 1 DS, he might as well open the exits for them.
What you call mediocre on survivor is actually decent. It's just that the survivor meta has been so stupidly strong and untouched for so long, you think that should be the standard. Unbreakable and BT have never been toned down, and are still strong (BT just isn't run, because you get it for free now. Go figure). If killers didn't tunnel or run gen defence or anything, then picking up dropped pallets, doing totems/chests faster, crawling faster, or creating illusions on gens would all be okay. But killers have to tunnel and run gen defence just to play, because balance changes almost never give them time, just takes it away, and so survivors have to counter that. And they do. 1 DS stun or 1 Endurance hit can be game-losing for the killer. It's just that bad survivors don't take advantage of that stuff. They're like, "The killer's tunneling? Oooohhh man. I better start walking slowly, or take 3 minutes to do 1 gen." Better yet, they rage quit and then tell the devs how they lost because "killah OP" when their leaving is what cost the team the match!
And no offense, but your last point is contrary to everything else you're saying. You're afraid that Thrill makes hexes OP, and that Counterforce isn't good enough, but that Counterforce also singlehandedly kills non-Thrill hex builds. Well, which is it? Do killers have the OP perk, or do survivors?
I just wanted to mention that BT has indeed been toned down. It may have been a while since it was last touched but it use to work on both the unhooked survivor and the person unhooking them. It had insane value in the endgame and was often times a guaranteed out for both survivors. Old BT brought more value than the free one that exist now.
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I think it could be cool if perhaps certain survivors get some sort of buff or added effect for using their own perks. Or at least certain perks. Just a slight buff for some and maybe a larger buff for others. Maybe a very slight or no change for meta perks. This would be to keep people from using the same skin for bonuses on meta perks and promote variety.
I think the same should go for select killers and their perks as well.
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Its harder for survivors to do. I try and give kills quite often when I play. But, you have to make sure the other survivors are out of the trial to start with. Otherwise they may come and get themselves killed trying to save you. Then I've just cost some random person their win.
I've offered to let many killers hook me in the end then they would carry me to the basement to try and camp out a kill not knowing I was giving them one. So now the killer is just wasting my time dragging me all the way there.
On rare occasions other survivors would see me offer the kill and actually join.
The biggest thing though is often times, when I offer a kill or a hook, the killer will just carry me to the exit gate. It's weird that so many survivors will take a free hatch or escape but many of the killers will not accept it in return.
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I think Billy, in most ways, is the perfect killer. Lethal when someone is good at controlling him. His skill kind of moves up with survivors in my opinion. So, a new Billy vs a new survivor is probably going to learn and get better at a similar rate.
He is loopable not to a greedy point. Be too greedy and it becomes a risk on being downed. He is less efficient when lots of objects are around and becomes hindered for running into objects. Even misses can lead to survivors making a vault or pallet. There are builds on him I'm not fond of playing against but that's just me personally and there are lots of killers that way.
For the other killers, they all have much more in terms of control. Oni isn't forced to swing or collide with objects. Myers can hold t3, leave a survivor, then pop it on an unexpecting victim. As well as vault faster when in chase. Ghost face is ghost face lol. Who knows when he is even able to be broken out of stalking or not. He can move around without a tr. Though he is weaker in that a teammate can tank a hit for the person exposed, where the other killers would still land an insta down.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837466#Comment_3837466
the problem is that you can't run any other perks other than gen defence. The killer needs more leeway to not have to run gen defence every game. you can literally afk as killer and you'll lose at same rate as if you were playing the game without gen defence.
this is what i mean by killer impact on playing the killer is like 0 at base-kit.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837335#Comment_3837335
no. the video is saying, killer should not run gen defence, run other variety perks. well here's issue. you run variety perks and you enter the game and lose. killer perks are suppose encourage certain play-style/empower the killer marginally but gen defence perks require you to run them to balance the base game.
you can't even make a tier list of perks in dbd for killer because every perk is like F, C-tier or D-tier for killer and gen defence perk that do anything for gens are like S-tier. that is what tru3 is trying to say when he says. Not using gen defence makes the game harder for you as killer, intentionally. It is like using Weaving spiders and No mither on survivor every game as survivor for every killer perk. a killer perk has to be like Old starstruck nurse-level to be relevant over gen defence with current balance of the game otherwise your running variety for sake variety to make game harder for yourself.
My issue is that we don't know how this same match would've ended if he had run a gen defense or any other build. The killer he chose may also make a difference. Perhaps, if he had run something else, he may have gotten a higher number of kills. Then that might just mean the survivors felt they had to run these builds, in order to fight off all those killers and builds they go against. Playing against people trying to win with all they've got has to be fought with the same.
In an ideal world all killers would be on equal levels and fun to play as and against. Sadly, I don't even know how that could be possible.
People can run whatever builds they want. I still run the old ruin and BBQ builds because I enjoy them. But trying to play in fun ways and still wanting to win a lot, just doesn't go well together in this game.
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Thank you for everything you have done here! Best of luck on the new thing!
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@DarKStaR350z said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824585#Comment_3824585
The devs themselves have stated that the incentives are unique to not only each region, but MMR bracket; as well as being affected by time of day you play. So your experience is not the same for everyone. Just because you are seeing mainly survivor incentives does not mean that there are not enough people playing survivor.
Not to mention just because the incentive is on one side it doesn't always mean you will get faster queues that side. Sometimes it is the opposite for some reason.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820015#Comment_3820015
Is there a minimum time limit for that? Would hate for teams to start shopping for killers by starting a vote as soon as they load in.
Im not sure about valorant but when I was playing rocket League you had to wait for I think 90 seconds before anyone could initiate a vote. Those games are capped at 5 minutes though, unless the game goes into overtime. So it may need to be a little longer here. I'm sure the time would have to be tried and adjusted for both the killer and survivor side.
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@Azulra said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820006#Comment_3820006
It is- In Valorant everyone gets the ability to call a surrender vote and, for the vote to go through, you'd need the team's mass majority(4/5 people voting yes) and, if the vote were to fail then anyone who voted "yes" would lose their ability to start another vote up, but anyone who voted "no" would get the ability to start up another surrender vote if they changed their mind.
I wouldn't mind seeing them try this. My only issue is that in some games I play, if someone doesn't vote to forfeit, the person who initiated it usually goes afk or hides off in a corner anyway. Though most times people just continue playing normally.
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@Azulra said:
Valorant is another game with a really good DC penalty system. It'll actively keep track of how often you abandon your team by disconnecting from the match and if it detects that you don't do it often then it just lets you know that you aren't gonna be punished and just reminds you to not do it often. If you start to DC too much they'll start giving you matchmaking penalties(I don't think it increases though) and will start recommending to correct your behavior. If you continue that behavior it'll start depriving you of match rewards entirely on top of the matchmaking penalties and will start advising you to immediately correct your behavior(instead of just reminding you like previously). And, finally, if your behavior just keeps going on for too long you'll just be banned outright due to the many warnings(and I'm pretty sure it's a perma-ban as well).
I think it's also another game that also has a surrender/forfeit option as well.
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They could kind of go the route from the mimic movies. A large bug that can make itself look like a cloaked person from a distance. The closer it gets the less deceptive it looks. In the movie the bugs could then open their wings and fly at someone. Would be like a quick dash.
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I think the penalty for unranked modes you have shown are less harsh, at the beginning, than DBD's penalty. There are no dc's with just a warning, but the starter one is only like 30 seconds I think.
That does not do anything for letting go on hook but I'm also not sure what they can really do about that. Forcing someone to just sit on hook, with nothing to do, would feel like sitting in queue... after sitting in queue.
They could make a mini game like skull merchants drones. Then make sitting on hook, and playing the mini game, worth a lot of blood points or something. Or, they could make the mini game a healing mechanic. Play the game and slowly gain on the health bar. It could even be made to work with perks like deliverance. Hit a certain number of prompts and deliverance activates. This way it isn't a wasted perk if you can't get an unhook.
As it stands I don't mind sitting on hook but it's because I can at least try to 4% if my teammates just leave me hanging. Give me a mini game and I might not pay as much attention to what my teammates are doing. Especially if I'm still gaining from it in some way.
That being said, many games do have a forfeit option as well. Maybe trying both ways would be worth it.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815683#Comment_3815683
Even if you get rid of "going-nexts" on hook, people will just stop playing the game altogether.As a person who thinks they should get rid of the hook suicides and doing so would improve the game, I'll admit this is a concern. BHVR does have to worry if it would just lead to people quitting the game and moving on and, while its easy for players to say 'we didn't them anyway', BHVR as a company does.
That said, I think they are ways to work around it as it causes severe problems. There's no way they can ever make a game that people won't want to quit in some circumstances, and they need a mechanic that makes it not so penalizing to teammates. Even if they tried something like 'you can dc on hook for no dc penalty, but you gain no BP or Pips, hook suicides are prohibited during the first 4 minutes of the game' I think it would be a massive game improvement.
I think they should test it out for a week or so. Don't tell anyone when it's going to start so people dont just plan something beforehand. I'm indifferent on it either way but at least they'd have a week or 2 of knowledge on how it would play out. Or make it a "bug" in a select number of games /wink /wink.
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@DarKStaR350z said:
I don’t know why survivors give up so easily; playing killer can be just as annoying and if I had a way to leave without getting a DC penalty I might use it when I get put up against a team with offerings that spread hook placement, Boil Over, sabotage and flashlights/bangs, Dead Dog or Errie as I know it’s not going to be a fun match.
I guess killers have had to develop thicker skin over the years and are just used to suffering. And talking about hit boxes what about that Head On hit box and how long it lasts, how about getting pallet stunned when you’re no where near it.
It’s always the same arguments, killer OP as they have a power where I can’t run pallet to pallet and make them break every one, or map traversal so I can’t just sit on a gen and knock it out faster than the killer can walk across the map to it.
It’s unfair killers can use aura reading it’s only fair when survivors use it etc etc.Fact is even when survivor was at its strongest there were still rampant DCs before the penalty and it was even encouraged by some ex fog whisperers. Survivors have always quit over the slightest thing because they only seem to be happy when making YouTube bully compilations and easily winning while rubbing the killers nose in it.
If a killer only moved the same speed as survivor you’d get DCs if they ever got a down probably.
These are just personally experiences though. For me, when I first started in 2017, I rarely saw DC's when there was no penalty. The streamers I saw do it, normally did it at the end of the match. That way they would not gain pips. So while it did affect matchmaking it didn't leave anyone in a 3v1 all match. Of course this was the same era that MLGA also existed and played a big part for some people.
As far as dc'ing as killer goes, I still see killers do it, just not as often as survivors. To me the difference is that as killer, I can just switch up my play style mid match and still feel like I have a shot to get a kill or turn the game around. As survivor, no amount of switching is going to make my teammates be helpful or give me the feeling of hope for an escape. Even playing for hatch is still reliant on how the killer or teammates play as well.
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@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810610#Comment_3810610
If its true its still a bad desicion cause both sides get punished for doing their main objective
I think they just want the matches to feel fun and not like washouts. It may just be a small subtle percentage that isn't really noticeable. May help keep the snowballing from happening too early or too often. I didn't get to play it the first time so I don't know how it felt to play. I do know the queue times for killer were long. So they are trying to give people more reason to play the survivor role as well.
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I may have heard wrong but didn't they also say that when a gen is completed the repair progress will slow down? I thought it was to help with snowballing from both sides.
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Did they use any blood point offerings? They may have been trying to farm or something. Did they at least boop the snoot?
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I would also like to wish you a nice day. I don't drink alcohol but I hold up my sweet tea and CHEERS! To everyone!
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798156#Comment_3798156
I really mostly play events and modes these days, with occasional regular matches to keep myself sharp or mitigate MMR if it's too low or high for my liking. Too low? I just win more. Too high? I vibe and let myself lose more. EZ.
It really sucks I have to play this way, but the Devs decided that MMR is God and thus, you gotta game it to keep the game at a nice comfort zone.
I understand this 100%. I enjoy playing killer, but hate actually killing lol. So I use to be able to play out a match for 2 hooks and then just goof off. It gave me a regular game mode to start but then just fun with the other side after. I could get to purplish ranks pretty often doing this so I never had to worry about feeling like I was just picking on new players. That isn't the case, at least for me, anymore. I either have to play to kill or demolish new players. Honestly, the only saving grace is the DC's and hook suicides. Those seem to keep me up a little bit. Not advocating for them by any means but...
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I don't know exactly what they use but Peanits posted this before.
"We don't make decisions solely based on kill rates. Kill rates only show us where a problem might be, they don't tell us whether or not there is a problem or what that problem is. We spend a lot of time gathering feedback and watching gameplay before committing to changing something."
I can link to the thread if need be.
I imagine if one side just overwhelmingly finds something unfun then they will probably try and change it. In terms of skull merchant I'm guessing it's nothing to do with strength. Just that people would rather not even play when they get matched against her.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797994#Comment_3797994
taking long breaks, not playing to always win, etc
lol That's the same way I am! I don't know how many hours I have because I'm on PS4 and Switch, but it's a good amount. And I have never gotten good at looping, I'm bad at judging speed/distance and I get caught on every little thing in the environment. I take a lot of breaks from the game, these days I mostly play for Tomes and events/limited time modes. When I do play, it's often not super seriously, like I haven't taken off Bardic Inspiration since it released.
Ive never really been interested in the tomes for some reason. But some events are nice. I can't wait to try 2v8. I couldn't try it last time. I get mixed feelings on survivor lol. I don't care if I win but I try more for the sake of the other players. I think when I'm able to play again I'm just going to start playing for emblems like I use too. I always enjoyed it
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797314#Comment_3797314
Yes, it's normal. When you're a new survivor, killers stomp. It takes about 1000 hours of gameplay before players consider you not a newbie. No, I didn't accidentally add an extra zero: one thousand hours. And that doesn't necessarily mean you'll be good at the game. You can find people talking about having 3k hours and still being "hot garbage" (their words). Playing survivor takes game knowledge, and it can take hundreds of hours to learn the maps, learn the map variations, get an idea of how looping works, learn the survivor perks, learn killers' powers and perks and add-ons…
Whether you want to dedicate that kind of time to this game is up to you.
I think I have a little over 3k and I make so many mistakes and goofs lol. There's a difference in playing how I do though, taking long breaks, not playing to always win, etc... and someone who actively tries to practice at the game.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796425#Comment_3796425
If I look at just the killrates, it shows killers winning at 51.7 percent, Survivors winning at 35.27 percent, and draws at 13.01 percent. I think I'm figuring that correctly.If I look at just survivor escape rates its 42.17 percent. Though that doesn't seem to take draws into consideration.The escape rate is just the escape rate. The killer data and the survivor data is basically the same.
To walk through the numbers to demonstrate this:
First start with the percentages: 17.92% 0k, 17.41% 1k, 13.06 2k, 18.57% 3k, 33.04% 4k.
If we then take those percents against a 1000 games that would be (slight rounding involved): 179 0k, 174 1k, 130 2k, 186 3k, 330 4k
If we wrote that into how many survivors escaped per result: 716, 522, 260, 186, 0
So a possible of 1684 survivors escaped out of 4,000 survivors who played. Or put into a percentage: 42.1%
That's a long way of saying the survivor escape rate counts the draws and the killer wins when they are a 3k.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796461#Comment_3796461
I don't personally use it for anything. I prefer the official stats but even those can be impacted by many things.I used to not put much weight into the Nightlight stats, but every time BHVR releases data, the numbers are really close with only some rare exceptions that have pretty clear reasons. This is why I think Nightlight is a great source for looking at what the division of games is (winrate). Because if BHVR says a certain killer has a killrate of 60%, and Nightlight has the same killer at 60%, the chance that they reached the same outcome of a percentage, but did so via a different break down of the game results, I find to be extremely unlikely.
Oh yes, I apologize for my wording. When I said it doesn't seem to take the draws into account, I meant that as if it was considering it as a win. As far as the escape rate I know that escapes can happen all the way up to a 3k. For the survivor/s, that escaped, it may be considered a win to them. If 2 or more lost, I would consider it a loss as a whole or cancelled out as a draw. Otherwise it seems like the survivors may be closer in terms of win rate, but the loss rate would also be higher.
Ive just never had much experience with nightlight. I see some people say it's pretty accurate with official stats. I would almost assume it may be more accurate in some ways. People taking the time to track their stats are probably not the ones dcing or throwing games.
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@LadyOwO said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796772#Comment_3796772
Nothing but a message from tge killer in endgame chat saying ggez like they put in soooo much effort lol
Honestly, I don't see that a lot from many Myers. A lot of them are just trying to do the horrible achievement. They probably find it as boring to try and get as I do playing against it lol
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796551#Comment_3796551
And I think that's the healthiest way! But my point was more that people who play salty play more nasty, and people playing nasty ruin the game for others. They DC, bully, BM, etc. It's not fun for anyone. For everyone's sake they need to go play something else.
Yeah I get you on that. Many people just need to take a break as well. I've been on a several month hiatus, not so much by choice, but I'm honestly excited to try playing again lol. The excitement might fade quickly but it should be fun for at least a day or two
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@LadyOwO said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796767#Comment_3796767
Add Judith's tombstone to the mix and you just die the second you get caught. No hooking just straight up dead.
Yeah I'll agree with that one too. No bloodpoints or anything.
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As someone who enjoys Myers I will back you up on this. It isn't even how I feel about it strength wise or anything. It's just incredibly boring to play against.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796499#Comment_3796499
I think that just means the game is no longer for those Survivor players. That happens, sometimes a game changes and it's not for you anymore. I don't think that is bad. The people who still care about the core horror feel of the game will stay, while everyone just interested in wins will leave and go play something else. That can really only be healthy for the game if people who don't enjoy it stop playing and ruining it for others, right?
I don't see how people playing are ruining the game for others? It could mean they may just switch to playing the other role for a while until something changes. I play both sides and don't play to win. I just generally play the side I find fun. Ideally, I can switch back and forth.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796461#Comment_3796461
I think it is obvious what BHVR believes fair is: a 60-40 split of Killer to Survivor wins, and they balance around keeping it not more than about 5% above or below that as a margin of error. If it's really too much BHVR can continue to balance as needed, or Survivors can continue to try and improve while Killers have some breathing room and learn to actually chill out for once.
Oh I agree with that. They are constantly balancing the game. They could even change the numbers they want to achieve, based on what they think is best suited for the game. Alongside the 60/40, Peanits has also stated they balance that way to support the horror theme of the game. In that sense I think they've done what they want to achieve. But in doing so, playing survivor has possibly started to feel more like a chore to some people. Rather than a good time.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796425#Comment_3796425
I'd take Nightlight stats with a grain of salt if I were you, it seems clear they are based more on team wins/Killer wins being only a 3-4k, not individual Survivor/Killer wins. The game instead sees Survivors winning as an individual and Killers winning based on number of Kills, then adjusts MMR accordingly.
Damn but I wish we never acquired the Promethean fire of knowledge that is the existence of MMR in this game. We'd all be better off for it not knowing and being blissfully unaware, a Lovecraftian placid isle of ignorance in the midst of the Fog… it was not meant that we voyage far and learn such, but learn we did. Now look where it's left us all.I brought up nightlight because you brought it up. I don't personally use it for anything. I prefer the official stats but even those can be impacted by many things. Which is again why I say it seems open to interpretation. I'm not even worried about the MMR here.
@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795993#Comment_3795993
Thanks for bothering to dig this up!
It seems clear form this then, that to keep the winrate equal, Kill rate needs to be higher doesn't it? Myabe I am tripping, but it seems like people mistake "60% Kill rate" as "60% winrate". Nightlight says Killers average somewhere between 50-60% winrate, so maybe a bit higher than expected but certainly within range.
So why are people complaining that Killer is too easy now again? it seems like the math here is mathing. And it certainly seems for an assym, this would be the balanced ratio, right? Why should someone who is less good at the game than they seem win easily at lower levels, and someone who gets boosted win easily at higher levels? If you don't like your results in game just lose/win more respectively?
I was just making the point that just because killers are at 50-60 doesn't mean survivors aren't way lower. At that point what is fair and what isnt?
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796019#Comment_3796019
On Nightlight, go to killers, and it will display 0k, 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k. They color the different numbers and make the dividing lines clear. On the right hand side you can also sort the chart, their default is pick rate, if you're comparing kill rates you'll want to adjust to that setting.
So if you wanted winrate you'd have to a little bit of math by adding the 3k and 4k numbers together.
They also have survivor data, but that's escape rates of different survivors, the kill rate from the killers is the most helpful for end game outcomes.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796001#Comment_3796001
Myabe I am tripping, but it seems like people mistake "60% Kill rate" as "60% winrate".The more relevant part of the BHVR post is that they don't have a firm win rate. However, if you throw out everything else, like MMR does, kill rate and win rate are identical. So going just off that, killers win ~60% of the time, survivors ~40% (thrown off a little bit hatch)
It seems clear form this then, that to keep the winrate equal, Kill rate needs to be higher doesn't it?No, though the reason depends a bit on how you define the win. A 60% killrate can lead to many possibilities for how it comes about.
Ahh yes ty. I found that the survivors and killer page both have an overall section it's just placed in between the individual characters of both sides. I guess even then it's open for interpretation.
If I look at just the killrates, it shows killers winning at 51.7 percent, Survivors winning at 35.27 percent, and draws at 13.01 percent. I think I'm figuring that correctly.
If I look at just survivor escape rates its 42.17 percent. Though that doesn't seem to take draws into consideration.
This is of course changing but at the time I saw the numbers
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795993#Comment_3795993
Thanks for bothering to dig this up!
It seems clear form this then, that to keep the winrate equal, Kill rate needs to be higher doesn't it? Myabe I am tripping, but it seems like people mistake "60% Kill rate" as "60% winrate". Nightlight says Killers average somewhere between 50-60% winrate, so maybe a bit higher than expected but certainly within range.
So why are people complaining that Killer is too easy now again? it seems like the math here is mathing. And it certainly seems for an assym, this would be the balanced ratio, right? Why should someone who is less good at the game than they seem win easily at lower levels, and someone who gets boosted win easily at higher levels? If you don't like your results in game just lose/win more respectively?
Im not sure how to see the win rate on nightlight, I don't use it much, but does it also show survivor win rate? As well as draws? Killers being 50-60 could mean many things but if survivors are way lower then that would explain things differently.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794662#Comment_3794662
I'm newer to the forums so I'm not sure where this was ever said. Can you please dig this post up so we can all verify? I don't recall ever hearing this from any source before.
@Peanits said:
I can clarify a bit. I'm not sure where the 60% kill rate = 50% win rate bit comes from, but I don't recall it being said by us. We don't tend to talk about "win rates" because a win is still somewhat subjective. Some people count a pip as a win, others if they get 3 kills, some even consider only 4 kills as a win. If we're talking about solely kills, kill rate and win rate are equal. The kill rate is an average, not a guarantee. You might kill 4 survivors one match and 0 the next, but that'll still average out to 50%. (When you average out thousands of matches, that killer's actual kill rate becomes much more accurate.)
Certain things may influence it, like you've mentioned, but it's a bit too nebulous to speculate on. There are also things that survivors may do to inflate that kill rate, like giving the killer a pity kill after a rough match, giving up when the hatch is closed, and so on. They would cancel each other out to some degree, but exactly how much influence each has is impossible to identify. These would have to be incredibly common to have a significant influence on the total kill rates.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792147#Comment_3792147
please point me out to an announcement and when it was posted because i'm very well aware they didn't say it any time after game has actually stopped to be hide and seek.
I don't know how to search the forums for that specific post, but I believe it got quoted recently in another topic where killrates were also being discussed. I believe it was a post made by Peanits in which they stated that 60% was the goal, they never mentioned balance, they did mention the horror vibe.
killrates are based on average MMR and "top MMR", where average MMR would be supposed to have higher killrates because killer is easier role to win with on lower skill levels, while survivor is easier role to win with on higher skill levels. Basically average of 70% killrate on average MMR + 50% killrate on top MMR / 2 = 60% killrate, and that's why devs are aiming for it. Problem comes at the part where this is heavily corrupted because guess why, player induced factors.
Again, though: High MMR killrates are higher than average MMR killrates. Also, average MMR makes up a far bigger proportion of the playerbase, so that calculation is off by a mile. Top MMR would be such a tiny fraction that you couldn't move the needle with it if you weighted it appropriately.
None of what you are saying has any foundation.
High MMR has similar killrates to average MMR
Except the stats disprove this.
Now let's see all the player related factors that are severely affecting killrates, making killrates highly unreliable as something to balance the game around
Alright, so we're not going by killrates.
So then 60% is NOT a good benchmark, your earlier spiel about why they picked 60% is based on nothing.
But also, you're moving the goalpost again, because now you're arguing that the 60% killrate is entirely insignificant when this little tangent came as a response to me arguing back against Hotrod claiming that it WAS significant.
Now also omitting my rebuttal to your accusation of bias on my part, you gotta admit: This is not a good look for you in that regard.
I keep these in my bookmarks lol.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/433-developer-update-stats
"We try to keep Killers near a 60% kill rate on average to keep matches relatively even and support the horror theme of the game, where the Killer is a force to be reckoned with and the survival is not guaranteed."
— Peanits
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789369#Comment_3789369
Its optional because it's not needed to run your graphics card but is still selected during a clean install by default. The application is more than just a filter and has other usage. Just because someone has a legit application installed and running shouldn't cause concerns about being banned.
Oh I'm not saying I don't agree with you. I'm just stating that behavior has stated over and over that using third party software is at your own risk. GeForce Experience is not required for your graphics driver or the game to run. Just because it's pre-selected doesn't mean it has to be installed.
I have no way of testing it right now but is it the full overlay causing the issue or just when using the filters section? I can't remember but I thought the overlay could be disabled if needed? Without uninstalling GeForce experience.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3787544#Comment_3787544
It's selected by default and could be used for other games besides DBD.
It can be used, yes, but is still not a requirement. I have no issues with any of the filters to be honest. I also kind of believe this may just be a temporary bug. But none of the software is a requirement to install.
It even says this on the driver download.
*This download includes the NVIDIA graphics driver and an option to additionally install the GeForce Experience application.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788656#Comment_3788656
If you look at my steam profile, i have almost 3k hours in DotA, i promise you, there is no surrender option in DotA. That surrender option is very specific to tournament type matches that the pros play.
Here is a relatively recent reddit thread where someone is asking for them to add a surrender option:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1clx857/dota_2_needs_a_surrender_button/
EDIT: it appears they added one but only if you are playing as a 5-man team which personally i haven't done in a while, i generally play by myself or if 1 or 2 friends:
https://www.oneesports.gg/dota2/surrender-dota-2-only-five-man-stack/
Ahh ok, yeah I trust you there, I've seen you mention DOTA a lot. I would not think you haven't played it a lot.
I found the below but kind of questioned the websites after i read it. I imagine I would've found more from websites I know if it were really true. It also seemed to be different requirement from one website to the next.
"Play the game in a full-stack party (five players queuing together)
Only available after 30 minutes of game
You must type "GG" in all chat to trigger the surrender option
To make sure all five players agree on this, they must wait for the overlaid ten-second countdown to finish."
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788112#Comment_3788112
Actually they don't all have give up buttons. DotA does not, and a match of DotA can easily last an hour. Are you saying that DbD players are so special that they can't sit through an 8 minute match they don't want to but DotA players are able to sit through an hour+ long match they don't want to play because they don't like the hero their opponent or teammate picked?
Personally i've never played dota so it could be lies. From doing a quick search though, several websites seem to say that there is a way to surrender but all players on a team have to do it. In public matches it can also only be after the 30 minute mark. Again, never played it, maybe it was even removed.
Something like rocket League does offer a forfeit option though. But only after I think the 1:30 mark. It also requires everyone on the team forfeiting as well. Which honestly I'm fine with. Though it means that they either want to continue trying or want to ruin the match out of spite.
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I'm good with it so long as it's equal for both sides. Right now survivors have to be hooked, and left on hook long enough, in order to dip out. Make it so survivors can just hook themselves, even while slugged, and we can call it even.
On top of that, go ahead and make it so survivors can see what killer they are playing against in the pregame lobby. This way both sides can dodge when they see something they don't like.