Jb94
Jb94
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@Haku said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/916084#Comment_916084
I also get annoyed when all the high rank killers start to moonwalk so I can't tell which way their are going but hey I guess we have to wait for this one a bit more
This is off topic. And slightly baffling. Mind games are the fun part of high ranks which actually involve skill on both sides. Abusing collision oversights for free unsafe unhooks is not comparable.
If this is a hill you really want to die on, make another topic so that people with more patience than me can explain why you're wrong more clearly.
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@GrootDude said:
For anyone who doesn’t know, unhook tech is holding the unhook button for a little bit then releasing, then you could run through the hooked survivor and then the killer would hit the hooked guy while you saved.
It was a great camping counter so I’m curious, why remove it?
Tbf it was a counter to incredibly unsafe hooking in the killers face regardless of what the killer or survivor does leading up to it. Its annoyed me before as killer but it happens so rarely that I tend to forget about it.
Only high rank players seem to know about the tech and high rank players generally have 13 other ways to bait/ avoid hits, so this isn't effecting anyone who can't manage without.
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The worst thing about plague is that her deviousness and chase points are broken due to the nature of her power.
Otherwise she's incredibly solid. I think people who don't play plague don't quite realise how tactical she can be- I find her a tonne more fun than any of the killers who just loop and nothing else (clown, wraith) or the ones who's wins are handed to them by using their power (spirit and insta hillbilly).
Someone else mentioned that the main thing is to get people sick as fast as possible and this is 100% true- getting a tiny bit of puke on someone is much easier than hitting them twice and changing targets in the early game is very disruptive. As long as you got everyone sick and they choose not to heal, you're now in a game in which stealth is impossible (people underestimate it, but the green clouds and puke noises are so so good for tracking) and everyone is exposed--saves can become snowballs, chases are half as long and with decent stakcs of STBFL, multiple survivors sharing a gen assures multiple downs. The game is more fun when she has access to corrupt purge, but she doesn't need it to be fun.
I have to say, any comparison to the oni is completely facile as... I mean their powers are very different and he's not even out. Not spoil anything for you, but he's definitely going to play differently on release--I would be shocked if he went live with his current kit. Anyway- if his style of gameplay suits you more that's fine but there are a fair few people out there who enjoy the plague and can really make her work.
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Really fun idea. Even if it was just like the charm allotted to the first slot per player, this would be a great additional detail.
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@sluc16 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/854322#Comment_854322
Classic saulty comment that provides no value at all
How is this less of a valuable contribution than your entire topic?
You do very little to substantiate your original point, this comment is just mirroring your own argument back to you, frankly with far more validity. You see 4 ruins over 4 games? I've seen 4 dead hards in a single game. I will see a bare minimum of 4 over two games.
There's also the fact that killer's powers inherently lead to different counterplay. Even with the same perk builds a hag game is radically different to a Billy game or a plague game. This simply isn't true for killer. Every survivor does the exact same thing once they've learnt the meta way to play.
Speaking of counterplay: locker. Break totem. Boom. Perk slot wasted. Killer counterplay to DS is slugging or waiting a minute. I don't want to do ether if these things, they aren't fun for me.
Killer counter play against dead hard to is to literally give the survivor a back rub before going for a swing - not viable if there's a pallet nearby--dead hard for distence is literally impossible to play against:they just get the pallet and the loops go on
Killer counterplay to adrenaline is running NOED. I don't, but if 3 or 4 survivors are up and about and multiple get their adrenaline at the end of the game this single perk almost garuntees an escape without it.
Don't be an ass to someone enging with you on your level on this topic. You clearly haven't put anythought into the potential counter arguments or suggested anything appropriate to replace these perks.
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Ruin is literally necessary. At red ranks its usually gone in seconds, and plenty of people know how to play through it. Gens go way way way too fast without it- patrolling gens in the wrong direction at the start of the match GARUNTEES the loss of the first gen without ruin.
Tbh it should base kit- totems always relevant and survivors get their second objective they've always wanted.
Bbq isn't all that powerful an effect--locker counterplay is so easy, and unless you're Billy or freddy, there's usually very little you can do to capitalise on the information other than knowing which direction to head in. Bbq is the only killer perk to limit break blood point gain and in a game this grindy there is never a reason to I equip it.
I would LOVE the oppurtunity to run some off meta builds- this is literally not a choice in the current meta.
Ironically survivors absolutely CAN run off meta builds (survivors are a lot less perk reliant than killers) they just actively choose not to because God forbid you won't be able to free a button for a free escape during a chase, stab your way off the killers shoulder after baiting then with a locker or garuntee safe unhooks after taking the killer directly back to the hook. These things are not needed on all 4 players on a team. Low and behold it's almost all I see.
The cognitive dissonance is wild.
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There's a nerf to SWF on the way- it's called low killer retention.
On Ps4 killer lobbies are usually instant--most people don't hate themselves enough to sign up for being bullied game after game it turns out.
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@Warlock_2020 said:
Plain and simple no. Killers will just dodge lobbies. Then hardcore SWF will dodge till they get the same lobby as solo players like they did back in the early days. It will make lobbies a pure nightmare for everyone.
Edit: It would be as disastrous as if we let survivors see what killer is selected. They would dodge like crazy.
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@premiumRICE said:
Tbh being efficient without perks like bond is not a problem. You do gen, if killer come you run, if not stay on gen
I mean, I run bond to find other survivors when injured for a heal, get an extra heads up when a chase is heading my way, occaisonally spotting an injured survivor who's running around desperately and grouping on gens to activate prove thyself. If efficiency means rushing gens without interacting with other survivors, then your strat seems sound. At the same time--maybe don't knock other people for wanting to play the game with a little more nuance than holding down a single button all game.
Maybe coordinated is a better word than efficient idk- you seem like the sort of incredibly pedantic person who speed reads an entire post then comes back with a galaxy brain view on something entirely minute in the grand scheme of the post. But thanks for the input, I'll be sure never to use bond again :)
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I experience more diversity in opponent playing survivor than killer.
Yesterday I saw 2 ghost faces (who is incredibly popular atm) a spirit, a wraith, 2 trappers and a freddy. They were varying levels of skill and played the game in markedly different ways (the spirit was the only one camping which seems... Redundant to say least).
On the killer side I saw the same survivor build with a different character skin in every game: dead hard, decisive strike, borrowed time and adrenaline. I also got to run in circles a whole bunch when I tried playing wraith for fun. I suppose a couple of heroic souls tried to spice up gameplay by DCing after being downed for the first time, but otherwise I have to say all the survivors I come across play in the exact same way.
I'm truly baffled by the complaints regarding how boring it can be to play survivor against the same stuff all the time when killers get even less variation from game to game.
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Opening this post I had no idea what the topic was going to be, just that I'd agree.
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To be honest it does seem like a lot of work just to have the whole community ######### about it.
Go back to any content made by popular dbd players and they'll be moaning a out the added objective and the comments will be piling on.
This community will endlessly complain about ANYTHING, why the ######### shouldn't the devs make some money while getting crapped on instead of doing it pro bono.
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@designator said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/837107#Comment_837107
Yeah why should he. In fact we should make every character P3. How about we slap legacy on everyone too. Also, how about instead of entering trials, survivors and the killers just play a poker game for 10 minutes and then the words "escape" or "merciless killer" appear on screen after. Let's just get rid of blood points altogether. You can use whatever items and perks you want. Not that it would matter because it's just a poker game.
I'm making my own dictionary and was looking for an example quote for 'hyperbole'.
With your permission, would I be able to use this comment?
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/833247#Comment_833247
as ive said above, i didnt look it up 14 was just out of my head.
though, we can say for sure that Trapper, Billy, Nurse, Myers, Doctor, Bubba, Freddy, Pig, Clown, Legion (yes, Canada is a part of the American continent, so he is american - he counts as 1 killer tho) and Ghostface (11 killers in total)
the killers we know for sure are not american killers would be: Huntress (russian), Hag (african), Spirit (japanese) and Plague (babylonian) (4 killers in total)
now, regarding Wraith and Demogorgon:
yes, you are correct, they both didnt originally come from America, though both killers have started killing there. Wraith was a peaceful person until he met A. Azarov who made him snap and kill - which is why i considered him to be american, as was "born as a killer" in that country.
for Demogorgon, since he only really showed up in America and was killing over there, i too count him as an American Killer. Though, we cant really call him a "Killer" at all, as he is just a hungry little fella. he's such a good boi :3
so yeah, those two would be up for debate. feel free to not include them in your list.
that would still leave us with 11 American and 6 not American killers, which basically leaves us with 2/3 of the killers being American, which tbh isnt really counteractive towards my argument.
Hag is definitely American (African-American). I'm really not sure why everyone is like 'huh yeah, dreads, I guess she can't be from America'. The swamp locations are clearly based on the American South (unless 'the pale rose' really got thrown off course by that storm) and her name (Lisa Sherwood) is a western name. Again, really unclear why this is such a blindspot when people are happy to debate the degree to which Canada is culturally different from the US over multiple posts.
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Feng- her hair is fine, but her outfit is goofy looking and isn't possible to mix and match with other cometics (well barring the OTHER ugly neon gaming convention outfit).
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Trapper is great. One of the few killers that rewards tactical decisions and foresight. If you're having as much trouble with him then those just aren't strengths of yours and that's fine: nonetheless he is NOT a bad killer. If you actually want to get better at him, learn where popular loops are and how survivors think when running them.
While a few tweaks would be appreciated, but there are killers who need to their entire kits looked at, so he's not a priority.
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@Wahara said:
I concede that many of the changes have been good for both parties, (as I believe I clarified in my opening post, saying that DBD has come a long way, balance wise) what I'm disputing is the on going narrative that competitive wants don't matter because the game "designed" to be casual, as if that's the final say in the conversation, mostly coming from survivor mains, but people who play killer as well.
Where the conversation is in the community typically dictates what the developers next course of action is. This months conversation has been largely centered around spirit, and the developers have responded with a rework. If the conversation is moving toward a consensus that the game is only meant and designed for casual play, I think that influences the development teams inaction or action towards the games progress. We don't ever want that to be something they can fall back on when people are calling for meaningful change.
I guess my point was that both sides are catered to, so the precise discourse amongst players doesn't matter all that much. So yes, the idea that the game SHOULD be casual and anything that stands in the way of this goal isn't healthy, but I don't think it's taken on board by BHVR. The devs are actually really good at discerning which complaints are valid IMO- that's why I listed examples of times when this process has been successful. I can't think of a single case in which the game was changed to cater to casual gameplay that had a negative impact on the competitive side.
Moving on- I think you're conflating the argument that spirit is unfun to play against with the argument that spirit disrupts survivors ability to play casually. Both are true, but one way that the spirit is 'unfun' to play against is the fact that she doesn't take a lot of skill to play well and that interactions with her feel luck based on the survivor's part. Spirit is now in a similar place to where the nurse was, but WITHOUT the caveat that nurse takes time to learn and skill to play well. She's not as strong, but anyone can play well with her- that doesn't seem like it encourages competitive play, just complacency for killers who don't want to have to develop their skills in the game. I'm a killer main at rank 1 and I mainly play Freddy, hag, Trapper and Plague atm- I 'win' (4k or 3k with a hatch escape) the majority of games I play with all four. The idea that spirit is the only viable red rank rank killer is propogated by people who only reach red rank because of her. Building the game around the power level of the spirit would be just as unhealthy as building it around casual play in my opinion.
TL:DR- I agree that designing the game solely around casual play is a bad idea. I have never seen an example of this happening in-game and don't feel changes to the spirit would indicate that this is the route the devs are taking.
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It's not always a bad strat, situationally it can be the right thing to do. I think the problem is killers going out of their way to make sure they tunnel- like thats what they've decided to do before the game starts.
Some reasons not to:
1- DS and BT. Two very popular survivor perks punish attempts to tunnel (they do more than this at red ranks, but that's the general idea). These perks are so ubiquitous in the game that straight up tunneling is never a good play to default to.
2- Pressure. Being this focused on one survivor is easily punished by a focused team. Good teams won't unhook right away, they'll use the grace period between hooking and being found to slam out those first 2/3 gens. Unhooked survivors need to heal and won't necessarily know where the gens are on the map- if you've managed to find someone else they're wasting time while you're securing your next hook.
3- Fun. You're underestimating the tactical impact of unfun gameplay. Playing in a scummy way can fuel survivors to find ways to 'punish' you- if you've picked on the weak link of the team and the other three are decent this might backfire. On the other end of the spectrum, aggressively removing players can change the entire game dynamic--the team can be demotivated to the point that they stop focusing on objectives and just try to outlive each other. I'm sure you've has games where 2 survivors are left, neither touching gens because they're both out looking for /camping the hatch. Personally I find this boring, so I try not to press my advantage too hard in this way.
None of these apply to every game equally, they're just factors to consider. As a killer you need to keep your options open, but not tunneling generally leads to better games IMO.
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@Wahara said:
So, this topic is going to be sort of broad but I'm going to my best to keep things in a general ball park of sorts. The core of what I want to discuss is how to satisfy both major parties that play this game: casually and competitive. Now, I understand that the common argument: this game isn't a competitive game, it's a party game. It makes no sense to balance around high rank play. The developers have even stated it's designed to be a casual game.
Okay. There is an element of truth there, but what I think people miss is that what a game is designed to be or intended to be isn't the final word on what a game *is* I'm sorry if that sounds needlessly philosophical, but one comparison I like to make a lot to illustrate is smash brothers. It was never designed to be a competitive game, but it became one. People that loved the game created a scene and starting hosting tournaments and Nintendo was so upset that their party game was being "hijacked" by "maniac" players they tried to snuff out the competitive scene completely.
The point being is that the player base ultimately has the final say on what a game is, and whether it's designed to be a party game, a large portion of DBD's player base is competitive. So, the question isn't whether or not DBD is a casual or competitive game, the question is, how do you satisfy both parties? When people argue it's simply casual and not competitive by way of design, it's not only fallacious in my opinion for reasons mentioned, it serves to snuff out a good portion of the player base.
Those of us who are competitive don't have any I'll will toward a casual audience, but you can maybe sympathize with the frustration that the only killers capable of going up against the best teams are consistently nerfed, the ratio of effective killer perks to survivor perks is quite small, and the speed in which generators are completed is blistering quick, at times, irrespective of whether the killer played all their cards correctly.
As survivor, the obvious complaint are Mori's, being camped and tunneled. I hate these things as survivor because they are low skill strategies, they're not fun, and it sucks knowing you lost a game you would have won because no one on your team had borrowed time or you couldn't manage to find all the totems before NOED activated. And as killer, I hate being forced to camp, I hate being forced to tunnel, but I don't like to lose. I do my best to be fair if I have a lead or early game, but if I'm behind, I'll proxy camp. I'll slug. I'll tunnel. I want the W. Which brings me to my next point. Be honest, you don't like to lose either. As much as people scream and scream this game is casual, don't tell me that if you're a survivor, you want all of your teammates to escape. And if you're killer, you'd generally prefer to 4k.
Yes, you should care about fun and not just winning. That goes for any game! Even explicitly competitive games. But I simply won't hear that a large part of having fun is intrinsically linked to victory - out playing, out smarting, and down right curb stomping your opponent into the dirt. You like that, you find that fun, it's why you're playing a PVP game in the first place, and if you claim otherwise I call BS.
So, with all that established, what can be done? How do satisfy both parties? It should also be noted that I accept that DBD is an assymetrical game and by nature difficult to balance, that's true, but I will not hear that it's "impossible" DBD *has* come a long way. I don't expect to get an all around solution - merely a concession, perhaps, that both voices in this community are VALID and merit consideration, and an effort to move toward something equitable.
So, I guess the first question to kick things off, how do we design a killer that can compete evenly with knowledgable, organized teams but has a difficult enough learning curve to where they would be scarcely seen at low to mid rank play? Or is that the wrong place to start? What's your take?
I appreciate the effort that went in to articulating yourself regarding this topic-well done!
That said: your main issue seems to be that the discourse surrounding the game favours the argument that the game should be fun over the argument that it should be competitive. I feel like this is a somewhat false dichotomy however- every big change made to the game that I can think of has had a positive impact on the game as a whole, effecting both casual and competitive. Some examples:
-EGC removed the unfun hatch standoff, but also added a lot of strategy to the endgame on both sides.
- Freddy being unplayable was a massive meme for a long time (this was exaggerated as few people took the time to work out his strategies, but he was definitely at a disadvantage in many ways). New freddy is not only more fun to play, but viable at high ranks.
- Leigion was genuinely harmful to the game due to the many bugs that came with his original kit. While it sucks that Leigion is in a rough place now, of broken legion and nerfed leigion I'd rather have the second in the game (I'm confident they'll get looked at again, it's just going to take time).
Apply this to whatever- instaheals unfairly made the killer's life harder, without any skill involved. Nurse was an auto-Dc for half the PC player base (don't condone, but it happened a lot) now she isn't. Looping is boring on the killer side, reworking loops has made truly good survivors stand out as they know how to mind game rather than run in circles. DS was a get out of jail free card, now it's situationally a get out of a jail free card (that high rank survivors love to abuse)- it's a step up
I'm baffled by the demands I see on this forum on a daily basis. For an asymmetrical game, a LOT of work goes into balancing the gameplay and player concerns are CLEARLY catered to: just not as instantly as people seem to like.
The nature of a metagame is for the community to pool information on performance in game until the most streamlined strategy is discovered. In this regard it actually wouldn't matter if every killer got a buff to get closer to the spirit's level: if one exceeded her, that would be the new killer you see almost every game- if not spirit would remain supreme.
As much as the killer roster can seem a little limited at high ranks there's a lot more variation in killer than survivor. A team might appear to be comprised of a Kate, a Nea, a David and a Dwight but at red ranks what you're actually playing against is (most likely) x4 DS x4 dead hard x4 borrowed time and x4 adrenaline. The meta is built around individual survivors wasting as much killer time as possible while avoiding dying- while obviously no one wants to die, red ranks know that 1 person removed from the game changes the dynamic hugely, hence why high rank players will intentionally hijack chases/ take hits on death hook/ run two perks based around avoiding tunneling. Getting tunneled isn't fun. Avoiding getting tunneled is meta. Again, these two concepts happen to go hand in hand.
Bacially my point is that both sides ARE being catered to which is obvious when you take a step back and look at the progression of DBD as a whole- for people who play on a weekly if not daily basis, all they see are the minute details that frustrate them, hence why this forum is actually quite bad for healthy discussion about the game.
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@newduls said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/816466#Comment_816466
This is an inaccurate assesment of egc.
Prior to egc, survivors were guaranteed death if they were the last one left and 2 gens hadn't been completed. GUARANTEED.
Now, survivors will always have a chance at the hatch, regardless of the gen completion count.
You can't be grabbed out of the hatch now. Which means if survivor and killer see it a the same time from similar distance.
You have 3 options now at the end game. Hatch, gate 1 or gate 2. Depending on the distance from the gates the hatch is pretty much determines your chances.
You can hunt for the hatch, hope you find it first
Hide at gate one, wait for the killer to close the hatch then open immediately and hope he doesn't come to that gate.
Hide at gate two, wait for the killer to close the hatch then open immediately.
If you opt for gate hiding you're looking at a 50/50 chance with some randomness sprinkled in based on distance.
The new system is more survivor sided then the old system ever was, without causing hatch standoffs, and without causing survivor bullying by refusing to exit.
Very much this. EGC is a lot better than previous hatch mechanics. The EGC feels climatic (especially on the survivors side) compared to two players standing on top of the open hatch for 15 minutes.
Gate spacing needs to be worked on (lots of killers have mechanics in place that allow them to patrol gates efficiently and those who don't can use whispers/other perks to secure the kill at this point)- but that's it. EGC is exactly what needs to happen at the end of the game to wrap things up in a fair way that keeps the pressure on both sides.
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@YaiPa said:
It’s not dbd, is how the internet (and in a wider and more pessimistic perception, the world itself) works. Hate cause hate, some people are happy when others are angry. Actually a revolutionary being already came to spread love, around 2020 years ago.
Jesus confirmed as next licenced killer?
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UK, PS4 player here- killer games usually load instantly, taking 15 mins+
Any idea what's causing this?
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@8obot1c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/802622#Comment_802622
Later ones. the ones right now are easy peazy
Ahh fair.
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@8obot1c said:
Im literally just going to ask the killer to let me do my challenge and I'll let him sacrifice me cause some of the challenges are BS
Which one are you having trouble with? I finished the whole tome today, happy to give advice if you're stuck?
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@Aeon said:
Thank you for doing your jobs I guess?
Imagine displaying any kind of gratitude toward people doing their jobs.
I personally make a point of not thanking wait staff, opticians, bus drivers, cashiers or the electrician who fixed my fridge last week: I'm just that revolted by people who do jobs that have any level of positive impact on my life. Honestly, how dare the creator of this thread even suggest that anyone being paid to do a thing deserves anything but contempt borne from an overdeveloped sense of entitlement. Truly my friend, your comment is an amazingly funny and insightful contribution to this thread clearly made by fools pathetic enough to be thankful for someone literally doing a thing they receive money to do.
That aside: nice job devs, been excited for this for a while.
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@FireHazard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/791415#Comment_791415
You're right, its all based on personal opinion and it's mostly just for memes...
But it's another thing when people are overly toxic to each other within and outside the game because they play certain Killers/Survivors... it kind of does have an impact within the match when it comes to targeting specific Survivors, and more times than not it's because of a specific Survivor they don't like...
So for example, if i'm targeted and BM'ed and insulted at the end of the match because a Killer doesn't like that Survivor and automatically assumes the worst of me because of that Survivor... does that make it right? No. What did I do to deserve that hate? Because you played against another Survivor that was incredible rude to you? So you need to return the favor to all Survivors that play like that?
Doing that really does continue the cycle of negativity, and that's why a lot of Killers used to be nice but soon turn nasty because of certain players behaviors... and vise versa as well.
I think you're falling into the trap of getting bogged down in the minute details of an incredibly specific situation: I wouldn't say 'more times than not' killers target a survivor they don't like, I think you're assuming a lot based on intuition and giving a little too much credit to the conclusions that you're drawing.
The hypothetical example you give is not 'right', but I don't think that's a particularly meaningful statement- the toxic behaviour in the example is not caused by the player's dislike of a character, that is only a justification. The behaviour would manifest in some way or another regardless of the reasoning behind it.
There's no cure-all for toxicity within the DBD community. Appeals to emotion won't work on the unsympathetic, appeals to reason won't work on the irrational and appeals to fairness won't work on... Well anyone--the game is inherently unbalanced and individual definitions of what are or aren't fair rarely align. There IS a cycle of negativity at play, but it isn't limited solely to the game- you're going to play with people who are unpleasant to interact with because of your character, or because of your playstyle, or because of your teammate's playstyle, or because they thought you were in SWF, or because they got bullied last game, or because they they had a bad day outside of the game, or because they paid X amount for the game and can play however they want as a result. The cycle is broken on an individual level by rising above the provocation- while you are appealing for people to do exactly this in your post, you're tying it to a very specific example which doesn't seem to resonate with many other players.
Going forward don't concern yourself so much with how you're perceived by other players- just focus on having fun and if you come across a game that tilts you a little too much take a break--play killer or find something else to do... Failing that-- main Jeff rather than Claudette? :p
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I don't think this is quite as influential on gameplay as you think. If you were targeted by the killer it could be any number of reasons and I very much doubt the killer out a lot of thought into their actions--games are so chaotic you kind of just chase based on whatever is in your line of sight.
As far as the stereotypes go, they're almost all memes- barring the fact that players with P3 Claud/ brown shirt Claud are almost always intentionally trying to stack odds in their favour and pink hair Nea's are trying to get your attention from the getgo. Slap on any other cosmetic and no one will have any beef on either side. As a killer I do notice flashy outfits in the lobby (an all auric cell outfit suggests a level of investment in the game higher than the average player), but this doesn't influence my gameplay, its just a passing thought when sizing the team up.
I think the stereotypes are kind of fun- I have a fairly set idea that Lauries and Bills are useless, Davids overestimate their chasing ability, any given Feng's toxicity is directly proportional to the number of Neas+Claudettes in the lobby with them... I dunno, none of it actually means anything but it's natural to infer patterns in behaviour and it's amusing when these expectations are met or subverted.
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Thanks for the replies all, this thread was a bit of a dud when I wrote it, but glad to see it's resurrected itself :D
@toxic_clown said:
idk, ive been to rank 1 as clown more than a few times. ive never really had an issue with him. a flawless character is boring. i personally like how he plays (he is my main after all lol) and i feel like if you play him enough, and actually get good with him, youll realize you dont need to teleport across the map if youre pressuring the map correctly.
as far as the bottles.... i dont see why you would throw it at your feet, really. i use the bottle toss as a distraction, a deterrence, and the obvious slow. its also good to mask your movements at a loop. kinda like a smoke screen. and besides, if you really wanted to throw one at your feet... just kinda... do it.
This is entirely fair and the kind of feedback I was expecting from clown players! I try to mix up who I'm playing as much as possible and I've found myself overlooking clown- not because I dislike playing him, just that I've never felt his gameplay stands out. The bottle drop thing is an attempt to find another way to use his bottles in a slightly different way. I think there is a distinction in how the two modes would be used there's still a little time taken winding and aiming. I also think that given how basic clown is it would great to find some use for the secondary ability button.
At the same time I can get behind the idea that someone needs to be the designated 'flawless but boring' character--this thread is really just a thought exercise so I can try and come up with a solution to the issues I've personally had regarding the clown.
@Mister_xD said:
i like the first idea, this sounds like it could get some play against players who always run the same loop.
the second one though...
it really does not sound like it fits his character. honestly, i doubt he'd even fit in one of those...
honestly, i dont think you can buff his map pressure properly. he isnt really ment to be someone with a good map pressure, though he is supposed to be very strong at chases. so we can safely buff that aspect of him.
i personally thought about adding the Solvent Jug to his basekit, which might actually do well combined with your first idea.
I'm not sure how widespread the practice of this really is, but a clown getting in and out of a tiny object (usually a car) is a pretty iconic image:
https://youtu.be/HP3SczZmsIgI'm kind of channeling the same thing with the locker idea--it's a bit out there but the image of the clown bursting out of a locker despite being far too big is kind of hilarious to me. Bonus points if he head-ons a hapless Jake who is standing too close to the locker. Still I think you're right about the map pressure thing- I'd rather see clown excel at being a chase god to give him an in-game niche, I just can't think of a very exciting way to achieve this!
@Gibberish said:
I think if anything, he should get some kind of stealth improvement.
His lore suggests he likes to be sneaky, but the his gameplay doesnt reflect that at all.
1) "The Clown surveyed its new surrounding and its gaze lit on me. A rictus split its face in two and it nodded at me before returning to the caravan. I suspect that it prefers its victims to be less aware than I, and I thanked the stars for that.'"
2) The Curtain Call trailer featuring him stalking Kate behind a tree
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/067/IZAXOOVZII39.png
So giving him a stealth/ambush focused secondary ability or passive of some kind would definitely make his gameplay fit his lore better.
Interesting! This is a very different view of the clown to the one I have- I didn't get the impression that he was ever particularly clever in his stalking, just that the travelling circus never stuck around for long enough for him to get caught. Same with the quote--the speaker doesn't make the clown sound particularly subtle :p
Still I'd be curious as to what kind of stealth element you'd like to see on him? :)
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@MemberBerry said:
That's why I believe Noob3, AngryPug, HybridPanda and whoever else is toxic should've been banned by now.
Hybridpanda is toxic?
I mean I don't personally agree on defining noob as toxic, but theres potentially an argument that could be made. Panda on the other hand constantly derails his success in games by by actively avoiding behaviour even adjacent to toxic (both as killer and survivor). If Panda is toxic and worthy of a ban, I've literally no idea how anyone can play this game without facing the same accusation.
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@wimlin said:
Honest question. Survivor perks seem to get nerfed all the time in this game in the name "balance" but killer perks never get nerfed no matter how powerful they are. MoM was not that big of a deal and I rarely ran it, but now its just another of the many completely useless perks. The DS nerf was even bigger, but at least that is sort of anti-tunnel now I guess? Seriously though it does seem like the killer community is much more vocal in this game and they seem to always get their way. It is no wonder the queue time suck so bad and why I rarely play killer even though its easy mode at least at mid to high ranks. The only challenge is waiting for a game.
I've played off and on for a while and I can't understand why the game still isn't balanced at all. The main issue I'm talking about is playing SWF vs. running solo. SWF games(when my friends do play) I can sport an 80-90% win/escape ratio, but solo its 15-20% maybe and honestly if I don't survive usually no one in the game survives. I would estimate a full 80% of non SWF games end with the killer getting 4 kills. Everyone always talks about camping like JUST DO GENS AND WIN EZ. But is it for a non SWF game? Sure in SWF a camper will pretty much always just get 1 kill, but in solo games camping is pretty much an automatic win for killer because by the time other survivors know a camp is occurring its really too late to get on gens and win the game. I propose to combat this situation the Devs either make voice chat available for survivors to even the playing field for non SWF or make it only in non SWF games so that the sacrificial timer either dramatically slows or altogether stops when a killer is within X meters of the hook. Maybe even make it a perk so we lose a perk slot for it, but something anti camp besides just kindred which has a short range we can run.
Camping is totally fine in SWF, because you can counter it, but in NON SWF it is game breaking and something should be done to make it a losing strategy in both instances not just SWF. I know I'm about to get flamed by the toxic killer community here(most toxic community I've seen in 20 years of online gaming anywhere), but every survivor main know camping is the biggest issue in this game for non SWF players. The DEVs should do something to discourage it. I'm not saying against the rules, but just make it so it isn't such a great winning strategy vs non SWF. There has to be something you can do to balance it out and make the game fun to play even when a killer decides to camp. I know it isn't the killers job to make the game fun, but it IS THE job of the devs if they want people to keep playing. I'm not saying that survivors should escape every game or even 70% of the time, but there should be balance between SWF and non SWF.
OK, so I'm going to start out by pointing out how disingenuously you've framed most of your argument--your 'honest question' is peppered with matter of fact disparagement of killer players at large. Playing killer isn't 'easy mode', an optimal 4 player team vs an optimal 1 player team favours the 4. Bafflingly you almost Cotton on to the real easy mode of the game (SWF), but some kind of strange cognitive dissonance prevents you from seeing a 90% win rate as anything but entirely balanced. If you want to have a real discussion on this type of topic, please find a way to measure out your own bias. We all have it, mine is toward the killer side of things, but a post this passive aggressive is very difficult to respond to in good faith. Here's an attempt though:
The reasons killers seem more vocal/toxic/coddled is a type of confirmation bias. The information you find disagreeable on this sub and elsewhere stands out to you. The more survivor relevant stuff (bring back mettle of man, pause hook timer while camping, etc.) gets you nodding along because they'll make your life easier, when they'll make the killers job impossible. Your views on these matters are already set in stone--you already expect to see killer toxicity and survivor camaraderie, so you do. If there were a sliding scale of killer to survivor sided individuals, you're heavily on the survivor side and are therefore much more likely to disagree with killer concerns and nod along to survivor ones. Killers aren't more toxic, more coddled or more demanding than survivors: your perspective scews toward believing this due to the way you process information. I know this because the exact same thing happens to me when I browse these forums--I try to stay moderate, and I play both sides in the game, but the issues that seem more glaring to me are the ones that effect killers. I need to make an active attempt to drag myself toward impartiality (as mentioned above this is difficult when a discussion is started in bad faith).
I started writing a lengthy response to the rest of your message but since I'm not confident you'll take on board what I've said already I think I'll leave it for now. If you'd like more feedback I'd be happy to provide it.
TL:DR- the reason killers are more toxic and coddled than survivors is due to your perception of the situation rather than the actual events that are taking place.
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@Aurien said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/767850#Comment_767850
I play a survivor main usually with a full group of friends. And personally we would all welcome secondary objectives that would mean extra blood points or even iridescent shards.
When we play and we see Ruin appear. Our first thought is. "Ok totem stomping time" which we do as quick as possible. Now usually a hag or trapper killer ends up placing one of their traps right by it to protect it. Revealing its location.(proceeded by them guarding said totem which is always near 2-3 gens for some reason) Other killers don't seem to care if we find it cause it meant we had to hunt it down. Totems give survivors some points but not enough to really matter.
You want to give us a second objective something we must do. Then give us a way to fight back besides just dropping a pallet or those stupid little flashlights (which wouldn't really workgood unless you had a police style maglight really.) I mean honestly let a survivor get him/herself some tree limb and smack the killer when he's carrying a survivor to a hook making him drop the person. Then limb breaks. Limit the number of limbs that can be found. Let us have a limited number of hooks we can permabreak in a trial.
I love the game but gets boring when yout go in do gens only to be facecamped by a killer. Punish them for this. Example.
Killer hooks player. 5 second camp timer begins unless killer has seen a survivors aura or a survivor hiding nearby within 15meters. This gives the killer time to place a trap if they are Freddy, trapper, hag, etc etc. Otherwise. Give the oblivious debuff to killer. Can't see auras of players or gens. Even if a gen is finished. Unless he leaves the area.
So three things on this:
1. There's definitely a difference between SWF gameplay and solo. When I play survivor it's solo: I have absolutely no way to coordinate with my team or establish which locations have already been scouted for ruin. I also can't coordinate to make sure all 5 totems are gone before popping the last gen. It's understandable you'd be bored of optimal gameplay with a team, as it basically robs most killers of a chance to win. The really good news for you is that when it comes to SWF you can basically make your own rules-- otzdarva has done a couple of streams where he and 3 other players play survivor competitively, trying to secure escapes for themselves while screwing over teammates. Give it a shot, if the game is dull for you cause SWF makes it too easy, spice it up on your time.
2. Your suggestions are at best misguided and at worst actively malicious. Survivors (especially coordinated teams) have a tonne of tools to make the killers job incredibly difficult. So on top of the hooked survivor's DS (assuming you didn't manage to slap them out of the killers hands with a branch or permanently Sabo the hook they were headed toward), The killer also gets a tonne of debuffs for staying close (camping is a legitimate part of gameplay-not one of the nicest parts, but an entirely valid way to bait excessively altruistic teams) before you run in with borrowed time for your teammate and an instaheal for yourself and dead hard in case the ensuing chase gets a bit spicy? The scenario above already isn't any fun without your added punishment for another player just trying to complete their objective.
3. Where does the killer factor into your idea of fun? Your suggestions don't sound like they would lead to the killer player having a very nice time--the justification that you're punishing bad behaviour seems a fairly paper thin way to excuse turning an objective based game into a free for all to make one person in the lobby feel absolutely awful...
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Survivors reacted incredibly poorly to the pustula and lamp objectives added in their respective events: to the point that even time limited events lack now lack a secondary objective. There's no way anything is getting added to the base game, the backlash genuinely wouldn't be worth it.
Totems exist, people still get annoyed that they can't ignore them without consequence... I don't think there's anything that could be added thag wouldn't just be seen as busy work by most players.
I think the archives is the nearest you'll get: something that encourages you to play in a different way/ run a slightly different perk build. The secondary objective is in how you play and being rewarded for it, rather alternate objectives.
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@NoShinyPony said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/767723#Comment_767723
I had to set my messages on PS4 to "friends-only" just because of DbD.
And when I watch PC streamers, the majority of their after-game chats consist of more or less severe insults.
I see a lot more on the contra than on the pro side when we are talking about keeping the after-game chat.
I've done this too... Though now my friend requests are full of abusive messages attached to insincere requests. Or in another game I had someone who died on hook follow me 200 times so that the rest of the game was plagued with notifications. I really don't understand the energy it takes to get that angry or the need to act on it in the pettiest ways possible.
I'd personally rather this stuff stayed in game if it was going to happen anyway- I genuinely think pc players have it better!
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I'm on ps4 too and mainly play killer. I very rarely check names before the game starts--once I ready up my attention goes elsewhere. Still I'd like this option to be there for a few reasons:
1. Enabling perks. The obsession mechanic gives one survivor significantly more importance to the killer than the others on certain builds. Memorising the names of players gives important information in order to prioritise chasing/ not chasing for Remember Me, STBFL, PWYF etc. If you have a build which revolves around one of these perks, this small advantage is much better than randomly starting chases until you see the obsession spikes wiggle.
2. Lore friendly--the framing device for the lobby is that the survivors are haplessly standing around on their screen. The same is visible from the killer's perspective, however the killer has the added context of their chosen spooky-boi creepily staring at them from the bushes. Then idea is that the killer is stalking their prey, sizing them up and planning ahead. The names are a small detail, but it adds a level of vulnerability to survivors that the killer knows more about them than they know about him or her.
3. Random survivors dodge each other- Survivors regularly dodge lobbies for reasons other than ping (I've noticed this a lot more since individual character level has become visible) - you probably just don't notice because it doesn't boot everyone from the lobby as with the killer or because you exclusively play with friends.
4. Killer discretion- gonna show my bias here a little. Personally I very rarely dodge lobbies as killer, but god is it nice that the option is there. Red ranks is rough and if I'm trying to run someone off meta (I don't have meta perks unlocked on most of my killers and like to whip them out for variation) it's nice to pick a lobby which isn't causing my TV screen to drip beads of sweat (I see you 4 blendette team with 3 instaheals and a key).
More broadly, there are only a couple of names that have lodged in my head from playing. One for good reasons (a guy I've played against a couple of times, who ggs and chats after the game), the other for very bad reasons--they're a member of an swf team which has DCs once I'm winning to mess with me/ secure hatch (twice) and otherwise just gone out of their way to play like asshats if the advantage is on their side- the only reason I've remembered this person is that their name is ironically wholesome. I've not dodged this person to date: but I've had at least 4 very unfun games against them win or lose. That I even remember the name of this person (something I don't actively bother with) is a real testament to how horrible my experiences with them have been. I've concluded that I don't actually want to play against someone who's part of a team of people dedicated to making sure I don't have any fun from the very start of the game- I'll probably forget to check names at the start of future games, but if I do spot this player, I wouldn't hesitate to dodge.
Those are my thoughts at any rate.
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Head and beads.
Head: needs a 'trumps other addons' caveat regarding capping the amountof hatches to 1. Still would probably be the most powerful addon in the game, but wouldn't be as unfun.
Beads: a fix could be that it emulates wraiths bone clapper rather than coxcombed- when phasing the sound is universal across the map. Otherwise some of harsh cost is needed that weakens the power in some other way (like plagues iridescent seal)
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Not a legion main, but I do miss going fast as ######### boyyyy. As a killer, leigon should excel in mobility at the expense of lethality. As things stand they're not quite mobile enough to justify how very very non-lethal they are.
Around half the addons need to be reworked--ie. The idea of inflicting status effects on a second hit isn't bad, they just chose some of the leat useful ones possible. Mangled and broken are baffling choices given the context of leigons power. Inflicting exhaustion on the other hand would counter dead hard/balanced which would actually validate the time taken to land a second hit and actually be a scary thing to face (though also very avoidable).
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I think this is one of the areas in which survivor and killer are actually fairly comparable- to me 'sweaty' play is when someone goes all out against a clearly outmatched opponent- I think the example of slugging for a 4k with 5 gens left is a great example of this. There are some games where you really can't risk mistakes, but going in with a try hard mindset from the getgo is sweaty. Whenever I see streamers playing this way I get really uncomfortable (Montos slugging vids are a good example of this IMO, the games seem really boring and he'll always disparage the survivors despite intentionally playing in a way which removes any actual autonomy they have in the game).
I think this is also why certain perk/addon combos can make a killer seem really sweaty--if my addons are carrying a game for me my instinct is to dial back a bit on how much pressure I'm applying-- killers who don't just seem anti-fun.
On the survivor side of sweaty- I remember a legion game during the double points event in which I burnt a BPS and just decided to have a chilled game- I was trying to completely a daily and had BBQ on, so my main goal was to hook all 4 survivors then just play the game out from there, maybe meme around if the players were fun. They weren't-- instaheal, baited decisives (which I took on purpose) and teabags at exit gate. I managed to get three hooked over the course of the game, but the gens went like crazy and they were all out in no time.
Basically, when the game swings hard in favour of either side, that side then doubling down on every trick in the book just screams sweaty.
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OK. So it's the job of the killer to generate tempo for the entire game. Every single DS over the course of the game causes a significant decrease in tempo- it isn't just the case that one survivor gets a second chance--the entire survivor team get a reprive (that feeling you get as a survivor when a survivor goes down then is suddenly back to injured- that's not just camaraderie- you now know the approximate location of the killer, know someone is likely occupying their time and don't have drop your current task).
At red ranks if you get hit by DS and there are four survivors left and two or less gens, then, unless you're playing a killer who can use their power and perks to snowball very rapidly (instadown potential basically), the game is over--the gates are getting powered. However-- the survivor that just jumped off your shoulder is injured and either has 1 or 0 hooks left in them. Camping the survivor is either a last ditch attempt to bait out poorly executed altruism plays OR resignation to loss and the decision that its better to get 3 tbags at the exit gate rather than 4.
Moreover: as a fairly experienced killer the ONLY time I will ever get hit by DS is if I didn't realise the perk was still up- not someone I tunneled off the hook, someone I bump into and down without realising its been under a minute since their unhook. It feels incredibly unfair to be punished by an 'anti-tunneling' perk when you aren't tunneling- the desire to throw some unfair punishment back at the survivor is (imo) understandable.
Tl:dr- If any killer with even moderate playtime decides to camp you after a DS, it's likely resignation to loss fueling the desire to secure at least one kill on the person who 'deserves' it most. Not the best note to end a game on, but an understandable reaction which is well within the killer's discretion.