GrimReaperJr1232
GrimReaperJr1232
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Well that's random.
I was just saying that it speaks volumes of MFT's strength when it's a month old, yet is already comparable to an old, easy to use, and widely accessible Exhaustion perk already.
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@Uxoxe said:
Maybe the developers realized that if they want survivor endurance perk variety, they have to make endurance perks that are as good as Sprint Burst and Lithe. If you look at nightlight.gg, MFT is not seen to be as good as Lithe by the survivor community. If the survivor community starts using MFT significantly more than Lithe and Sprint Burst, then it may get nerfed. Dead Hard was nerfed because it was used significantly more than any other survivor perk, the developers gave the reason as above.
That's not happening with MFT.
My guess is Dramaturgy won't even see usage over 2.5% after it's 2 month release. It's far inferior to Sprint Burst, Lithe, Dead Hard and MFT. Dramaturgy is a bad endurance perk and a bad Plunder's Instinct perk, creating a "slightly bad" combo perk.
Lithe has been in the game for years and comes from one of (if not the) most popular survivors in the game. MFT is a month old. Yet, they're already comparable.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481056#Comment_3481056
Considering her absolutely busted chase potential, I think that's more than fair.
That's irrelevant. The point is, Nurse's strength isn't her mobility. So "mobility of Nurse" isn't really saying anything.
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Because Pain Res can physically only trigger 4 times, and only if you down them and hook them on 1/4 specific hooks whose placements are complete rng.
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Let's just address the absurdity of this comparison.
You're comparing the effect of a perk to a mechanic designed to aid killers as a bandaid fix for poor map design, whose flaws are further exacerbated by the survivor perk in question.
Stop. Just stop.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479017#Comment_3479017
They literally said that they don't have any plans to change it currently so idk what ur on about
That was sarcasm...
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3479201#Comment_3479201
So Hag moving 3% faster than any other killer permanently isn't an issue but survivors is?
Legion's frenzy is 130% movement speed, I don't think 103% makes a difference.
Deathslinger has range. Are you serious? You don't need to catch up, you aim and shoot.
A few problems.
1. Hag is 2.5% faster with a specific add-on that completely neuters her power.
2. Legion still needs to actually down you out of Frenzy.
3. He's 4.4, meaning he's vulnerable to legitimate infinites. I'm talking actual chase breaking infinites that prevent bloodlust build up and everything. MFT just makes it worse.
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Don't worry, they're monitoring the perk. In the next mid-chapter, they'll reduce the Endurance, then they'll reduce it further, and THEN after a year they'll finally look at the permanent 3% haste the killer gives dealing damage. Just like CoH.
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I... cannot find any problem with this suggestion. Please, make it happen, BHVR.
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Devour is lit at the start of the game and is vulnerable the entire time the killer is trying to build stacks.
I think the perk is risky enough.
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The reason why it goes on cooldown is that even if you don't sabo the hook, the act of attempting disables the killer's ability to hook for that duration. Compare that to Any Means that doesn't disable the ability to break the pallet.
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Let me put this into perspective.
Killers, if you don't like medkits, shell out cash to buy a licensed character, grind up until you unlock his perk, keep grinding to level up his perk for everyone, and THEN sacrifice 1/4 of your build to counter 1 item.
If you don't like CoH, go out of your way to disable a perk that can endlessly be reapplied, the same perk that's often set up AWAY from you, and actually countering requires you to bring Shattered Hope, again requiring you to give up 1/4 of your build to counter a perk that MIGHT be there and would still be able to be set up 5 times.
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I mean, it's the only real anti healing perk.
What is there? Leverage with a 30 second timer after a hook and needs 4 hooks to equal Mangled?
Coulrophobia that's only decent on Wesker?
GoP that's Sloppy but after a hook instead?
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In the next update? Probably not.
Do I think it will eventually? (as in sometime within the next year) Yes.
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Depends on how the Knight plays.
If he just insta-drops, then very little. It's just holding W again and again.
If he actually tries predicting your pathing, sending guards ahead to cut you off, and then going in for a pincer? The idea is to outsmart each other. Predict one another's paths and see who makes the right read.
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@[Deleted User] said:
bruh theres no winning; either i get called boring for chasing survivors as legion or i get called boring for hitting and running🙄
Power cancel Legion. Unsub. Smh.
@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3463503#Comment_3463503
"If you keep running" is the problem here. It locks the survivor into an endless chase with no other option than to run. Its only problematic if legion cancels his power. That is my only issue with this. It forces the survivor into an unrecoverable situation.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3463477#Comment_3463477
I've always felt the intended gameplay of legion is to use his power for exactly what it was designed to do which is track other survivors. I'm noticing many legion players not doing this and simply using it to force survivors into an unrecoverable situation. That is why I suggested for the deep wound to wear off over time IF legion deactivates his power and continues to chase you. That only seems fair to me.
You're saying it's problematic without explaining how it's problematic. Any killer can chase you endlessly. In fact, that's the GOAL of survivor; keep the killer chasing you so your team can do the gens.
And yeah, if a killer chases you, your only option is to run. That's what a chase is. There is nothing different except if a killer decides to drop chase, you'll have to hold M1 for 12 seconds.
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@KateMain86 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3463455#Comment_3463455
I only think legion's power should give him the benefit of tracking and not overly pressuring a survivor with a deep wound that they cannot mend in chase. The survivor is forced to keep moving or they will go down from the deep wound effect. In my opinion its exploitive. Also I never said anything about preventing legion from cancelling his own power. If you read my post I said that deep wounds should cancel out if legion continues chasing a survivor with deep wounds after canceling his power. Its really not asking for much and is a very needed balance change in my opinion.
Are you aware the deep Wound timer pauses when you're running? This means, in a chase, there is almost no difference between being in Deep Wound or being plain injured outside of Endurance interactions. Screen is a little darker but that's it. You will not die if you keep running, and even if you stop for whatever reason, it'll take 20 seconds of standing still before you drop.
And if you're struggling against Legion essentially getting a free injury, then that's on you. After the first hit, Legion is essentially powerless.
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@Nebula said:
Wraith is such a better killer than Sadako. Giving him the things that make Sadako unique would just bump her even lower.
That just says more about the sad state of Sadako more than anything.
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It's called passive phasing. It's there to give her an edge in loops since she's 4.4 and is the only 4.4 killer that will have to wait for their power to recover.
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I prefer having a power.
Oh, they're infected? Cool! I can shred through pallets and have built in Endf--Oh, they just chain together windows and tiles so I can't do anything.
Okay, they're at a junk loop, so I can--- they have an EMP.
Okay, I finally injected them again and downed them, and--- all the gens popped.
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@DavidHypnos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3459031#Comment_3459031
No. The point is that the only time it will be the almighty, uncounterable perk that everyone claims it to be would be if you’re already going up against someone who is far beyond your skill level. Anything other than that and it’s doing what a perk should do... Giving you a slight advantage. Technically, that’s what it’s doing for those more-skilled survivors as well but the problem is if they’re already looping masters and far beyond the killer players skill level then it’s just giving an advantage on top of that. It works both ways though. If the killer player’s skill level exceeds the survivors then they won’t be phased much by this perk because they’ll know how to mindgame and counterloop. Even if it were a crutch perk as you say…. What would you call Noed? At this point in the game survivors have completed their objectives but if they haven’t cleansed all 5 totems you get a 4% speed boost and one-hit downs which isn’t revealed until you down someone. If you’re already a very skillful killer player then using Noed is going to give you a much greater advantage than the average player. We go into a game not knowing what perks anyone is bringing so we have to choose a build blindly… do we just go for a good setup or try to bring something that could potentially counter something else? When choosing a killer you don’t know if a survivor might have something that could help them counter your power and when a survivor chooses their build they don’t know to choose a perk that could benefit them against a certain killer or their build. There are powers and builds that can easily counter a 3% haste when injured. You just don’t know if you’ll need to counter it until you play which is part of the fun.
What do I call NOED? A hex that can be disabled. Also a perk that works in endgame, not the entire game.
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Added a response to people bringing up Bloodlust... because a perk and a baseline catch up mechanic are somehow comparable apparently.
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I mean, yeah? That's their entire objective. What else are they gonna do? Hand you a medkit?
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Well, what did you expect? It's still DBD...
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He definitely feels better but... I'd be lying if I said there's been my improvement in performance.
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I don't like the idea of disabling TVs taking 90 seconds. 70, sure. But not 90, because keep in mind, when disabling and then inserting a tape into a TV, you're not disabling one TV. You are potentially disabling two, as inserting a Tape into a live TV counts as disabling it. That, to me, is a bit excessive.
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Last few times I checked Nightlight, he had a below 42% killrate. I don't think people are particularly having much fun with him.
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@DavidHypnos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3458647#Comment_3458647
This is assuming that you start every chase at 12 meters. Stealth killers and uses of undetectable can often get you much closer. It’s not taking into account lunges or bloodlust. The best survivor advantage is the third person view but even then you have to keep your eyes on the killer while trying to run in the opposite direction of where you’re going. Looping is not as easy as everyone makes it out to be. There are unsafe pallets, and if you drop them too often you get stuck in dead zones. How many killers can teleport, have ranged attacks, have powers/add-ons for movement speed boosts or hindered for survivors? Even the best survivor players who are great at looping will go down eventually. As someone pointed out before, Made for This is only going to be a solid prevention if you’re going up against someone whose skills surpass your own. When I’m playing killer if I am spending too much time on one survivor I move on to another strategy. There are far more ways to counter the usage of this perk than there are other things in the game so why so many people complain I’ll never understand.
Just so I'm understanding this correctly, you said, "Made for This is only going to be a solid prevention if you’re going up against someone whose skills surpass your own."
Meaning, this perk is only helpful... if the killer is better than you. Am I misunderstanding, or is that literally the definition of a crutch perk?
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@Rickprado said:
Since Mov Speed is so crucial in this game, in think MFT should be reworked into another thing. 3% for just being injured and not exausted is a huge deal - and you can combo it with Lithe or even DH - especially against the non top-tier killers. I was seeing some matches were because of Made For This the survivor could reach 3 pallets he would not reach without the extra moviment speed. For a perk with so low requirements, i think its too much.
Maybe a quick fix for MFT would be: you get the 3% mov speed if you are not exausted, but after 30s, you gain 60/50/40s extra seconds of exaustion. This way, the perk could help you in chase, but only in a limited time, and if you use an exaustion right before it expires, you would have a large amount of time exausted.
If you want my opinion? Up the haste to 7% but it only lasts for 10 seconds after healing a survivor (same duration and condition as the Endurance). It's like a Reverse BT when picking up a slug. Much more reasonable.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3458624#Comment_3458624
I see, it was just worded weird, my apologies.
Almost every Exhaustion perk gives you 150% movement speed for 3 seconds. In those 3 seconds, you move 18m. Normally, you'd move 12m, so you get 6 extra meters of movement, not bad. MFT gives you a 3% Haste effect. In order for that to be equivalent, you'd need to be in chase for FIFTY seconds while injured. You are better off running SB or Lithe to delay the first hit.
Made For This is a "win harder" perk. It's not going to save you from someone the same skill as you or better than you. It's only going to let you dunk on people worse than you.
Just want to chime in.
Assuming the killer is chasing you, you're not getting 6m of distance every second on them. It's 6m subtracted by the killer's current speed. Assuming they're an average 4.6, then 6-4.6 = 1.4m gained on the killer every second for a total of 4.2m. Assuming you run at 4m/s while they're still 4.6 catching up, then they'll take 7 seconds to make up that distance (4.2/0.6).
Made For This is trickier since it doesn't so much give you distance as much as it slows how fast the killer catches up.
If we assume a survivor starts running at 12m (minimum range needed to start a chase), it would normally take a 4.6 killer 20 seconds to catch up. Account for a SB, 20 will become 27.
Made For This, by reducing 0.6m gained to 0.48m, increases 20 to 25. Sounds inferior, however, MFT continues to work after you drop a pallet and w-key (or loop regularly). Other Exhaustion perks do not.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
When creating an argument against a perk, I would advise you start by listing it's problems first, expound on those issues second, and then provide context third.
I know your title is "attempting to counter arguments," but if Made for This is really an issue, you shouldn't have to counter any arguments. You can just lay out the facts and your findings into a persuasive essay that articulates how Made for This moves beyond being useful and enters the territory of being oppressive.
You've countered, what I believe to be, the worst arguments in favor of Made for This. It is difficult for me to enter this conversation when it doesn't feel like you are looking at the bigger picture.
Just my two cents.
I will keep this in mind for the future. Thank you.
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@Yamaoka said:
Perks that buff your injured state are absolutely fine as long as the effect is not anything crazy.
3% movement speed is not insane. I measured a gained distance time of less than 0.5 sec when running from one end of Midwich Elementary School all the way to the opposite wall. That's not a huge effect no matter how you put it.
On the surface, you're correct.
However, that's the difference in *mobility.* Not in a chase where the average killer gains 0.6m of distance every second. Now it's 0.48m every second, while 4.4 killers only gain 0.28m with this perk in play.
If you're still confused, imagine this: there's a difference in 12m between you and the killer.
You're obviously running away at 4m/s, while the killer is pursuing at 4.6m/s.
Your speed is partially negating theirs, as you're a target moving *away* but they're still faster. So, 4.6 - 4 (sur speed), and you'll find the killer is getting 0.6m closer every second.
So, 12/0.6 and it'll take a killer 20 seconds to catch you. Add in this perk, and it becomes 12/0.48, meaning 20 becomes 25. That's 5 extra seconds to reach a pallet/window.
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Speaking as someone whose experience has only been on the receiving end? Nurse. She can do this to. If allowing addons, Spirit. And I know many will vehemently disagree with me on this, but Hag as well.
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@Firellius said:
Resilience outside of chase is very risky. Yes, you repair 9% faster which matters a lot. However, you're injured.
You need to be injured
Respectively, I have to ask: So what?
You wrote these back-to-back.
I get what you're getting at, but you should absolutely have worded this very differently.
Fair point. Did a small edit to reduce the redundancy. My word choice and eloquence leave much to be desired but I tried my best.
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@MikeyBoi said:
The only thing that annoys me about sloppy butcher is how your heal progress automatically goes down if you’re forced to stop healing, I don’t really understand why they added that to sloppy cause it was already pretty strong to begin with..
It was added to Hemorrhage, not sloppy by itself. And Hemorrhage before was probably the worst status effect in the game.
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They said they were looking into 3 gens and Skully, so...
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I asked about Pig's TR.
The reason she had a 28m TR was that it gave roughly the same reaction time as a 32m TR, but enabled synergy with Whispers. However, they eventually decided that was gimmicky and there's no point of breaking the standard for one specific gimmick, so they standardized her.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3456685#Comment_3456685
Reassurance and Hyperfocus are not meta perks. You are seeing them maybe time to time. But meta means, you will see them in most of matches which is not true for perks you mentioned.
Hyperfocus, sure, but Reassurance? Non-meta? I... don't have anything more to say on this.
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Wait, why Victor? Little guy moves at 6m/s
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3456663#Comment_3456663
OP’s point is that in the last several survivors haven’t received good perks. A lot of the perks you’ve mentioned (that are good; most are situationally average at best) are older perks that have been grandfathered in. I think you really reached with that list too because not a single one of those perks is META.
"Allow me to name some unpopular/off-meta perks"
But okay. Recent chapters. Let's do some comparison for perks that are meta from this year's chapters.
Last Transmission
Survivor - Made for This
Killer - Nothing. (Don't tell me Forced Hes is a meta perk)
Tools of Torment
I don't think anyone got anything out of this...
Forged in Fog
Killers - Nowhere to Hide? It's fallen out a bit since the gen kick meta nerfs. But let's count it.
RE2
Survivors - Reassurance (and Hyperfocus but that's difficult to use)
Killers - Nothing. In fact, one of the perks got nerfed from PTB.
So killers got 1 perk that had its value diminished with a meta shift, and survivors have gotten 2-3. depending on your PoV.
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Can't have good perks? Allow me to name some unpopular/off-meta perks
- Inner Strength/Inner Healing
- Botany Knowledge (Or Desperate Measures if you don't like the medkit debuff)
- We'll Make It
- No One Left Behind
- Soul Guard
- Tenacity
- Quick and Quiet
- Hyperfocus
- Fogwise
- Distortion
- Deja Vu
- CoH is still good
- Any Means
- Alert
- Borrowed Time (not needed, but it's still amazing if the killer tries to outwait the base 10 seconds)
- Dark Sense
- Detective's Hunch
- Troubleshooter
- Built to Last
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I have a rule
If you were unhooked, I'll try to at least look for your rescuer instead. If you bodyblock or run into me, then I assume you *want* my attention, in which case, I'll give it to you. Just don't think you have the right to complain after.
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I want to add a few things to your argument.
- To the people that say the 3% difference isn't a huge deal, I will point you to Trickster. Some of his best add-ons include his movement speed add-ons, add-ons that make you faster by 1% and 2%. Those small numbers make a big difference.
- To those that say it requires you to be injured, so it's okay, but so did Dead Hard. That perk wasn't acceptable. Yes, if you catch them in the open injured, you're probably down them but you could do the same to DH by waiting/baiting it out (DH in the open was easy, if annoying, to deal with). And who's forcing them to stay injured? You can be healthy, tank a hit and then use the perk. It's not No Mither that keeps you injured forever. It works when you need it.
@emetSdidnothingwrong said:
Fun fact: this endurance stacks with other endurance effects, so you can take 2 hits while injured under the right situations.
They patched that out though. If you're in Deep Wound, Endurance doesn't work. The only exception is Mettle of Man which gives a unique effect separate from Endurance.
Speaking of MoM, this perk reminds me of the original MoM. In that, it hurts M1 killers the most---original MoM did nothing against Nurse, Billy, and Huntress, the then meta killers. MFT does nothing against a good Nurse, Blight, or Spirit except maybe mildly annoy them in some cases.
They also punish the killer for dealing damage. MoM gained stacks of basic attacks, the only form of damage M1 killers could inflict which made the perk unfair to them as they couldn't avoid its effect. As for MFT that gives haste when injured by any means, well, you can't not have survivors injured, even insta-down killers will have you injured at points.
Is Resilience similar? A fair point, however, Resilience's effect in a chase only matters in really tight scenarios. Meaning, you need to be good for this perk to shine and be worth a slot, unless you favor being a gen jockey while injured (in which case, yeah, the one-shot argument is perfectly valid). MFT, you can get value from simply W-keying from pallet to pallet/window, combined with it actually helping in loops (especially if you mix it with resilience too).
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Literally shared with CC that directly tell the devs, and still nothing. This feels like some tragic story...
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Which? Agi-Starstruck or a slug build with Knock Out?
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Ditto
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@JackOfTrades said:
Wait a minute. Generators Screaming sounds like a entire rework to me.
I have no idea if I have a typo somewhere and now I'm questioning everything.
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I need some info. Is this accounting with or without add-ons?
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This argument has numerous flaws.
8 seconds for a 4.6 killer to catch up is a huge deal because this is just a straight line. This doesn't account for them making it to a pallet and dropping it, then running again. Or them making it to a window. Or looping you in loops they can hug tighter than you and now a little bit faster.
For 4.4 Ranged Killers, despite your statement, it's a huge deal. Yes, their projectiles are leagues faster than survivors.
Huntress can't just pray you're in the open; she will have to chase you in tiles as well. With that 3% speed, those small windows she has where she can land a hatchet after a mind game get narrower or outright removed. Do remember, she has to wind up her hatchets too for a minimum of 1.5 seconds (3 if she wants it fully charged). That's to say nothing of some loops where her only option is to brute force the pallet drop and get it out of the way.
Deathslinger has a capped range limit of 18m. However, his projectile is also very small. That means, long ranged shots are easy to miss, so you will need to catch up. It's not quite as bad as Huntress given his much shorter windup, but again, he lacks her range and snowball potential compounding the fact that outside of his 1v1, he has very little going for him. This perk, when used by competent survivors, can outright cripple him.
Trickster... yeah... where do you start with him?
Yes, it hardly inconveniences Nurse or Blight or even Spirit. However, that just makes it worse, in my opinion. It's like Mettle of Man, back when Billy, Huntress, and Nurse were the holy trinity of killers. That perk crippled Wraith but literally did nothing to those 3 since it required basic attacks to work (Nurse's attacks were bugged and didn't give MoM stacks, most likely due to it being a Sub-Basic Attack). It's a perk that disproportionately affects killers that already struggle while being a minor inconvenience to those that already dominate. That, to me, is a problem perk that should be adjusted.
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He's very frustrating atm.
He's a killer that takes time to learn, no doubt. The main problem is that there are just so many EMPs. You can grab one, and a chest will immediately start printing another. Since infection also cleanses on hook, you can easily end up in a game where 9 EMPs are in a trial at once (1 per surv + 5 in chests) unless you're constantly infecting multiple people which is just frustrating and difficult to do.
You could just use his power in loops, but then he's mostly just an M1 killer that counters W. Even the newest Blight players can do that. His chase power is mostly just anti W since Overclock is so brief.
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Because it takes 100 seconds to build (from first grab; From hook, it's closer to 60) and exists solely to be a consequence for ignoring infection, letting the mechanic function as a form of slowdown.