Frizouw
Frizouw
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- Frizouw
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@Pirscher said:
The tunnelling got so much worse after the anti facecamp mechanic got implemented..
It's like people thought to themselves "well, only facecamping got adressed, so tunnelling is therefore totally acceptable". And now here we are in tunnel hell.
I've barely played over the past couple of weeks because it's so bad. And it is regardless if youre playing solo queue or in a group, it just happens again and again. I'm slowly feeling compelled to just play killer and tunnel too because I'm so often exposed to this!
I can understand you can encounter 1 clown sometimes that think it's funny, but it's like mostly every games now... Friends or without friends like you said, someone will be tunneled... Let me tell you if it's YOU, and it happens every game, you just want to stop playing, cause it's not fun to be the sacrificial goat every game lmao xD
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@Hex_Ignored said:
Missed hit recovery is too fast, especially with add ons involved
100% everything is ok except that.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/404034/is-tunneling-killing-the-game
Not exactly. The problem is not that "people tunnel" the problem is that tunneling is the most effective way to win the game. You are putting the blame on the wrong people. You need to blame the developers, not the players using the strategy. The problem is the game is balanced around kills. So, the best way to win is to kill a survivor as fast as possible because the best slowdown is having less survivors in the game.
The reason for this is simple, the game with 4 survivors is simply too fast. If 4 survivors are alive it is impossible for a killer to keep up on gens when against a decent team. Watch any comp matches and you'll see that the strategy is to pick a survivor and hard tunnel them out, and hope they aren't the one with DS.
If the game incentivized chases and hooks, and actually rewarded killers for hooking more survivors and spreading pressure, you'd see far less tunneling happen.
My proposal to "fix" tunneling and camping has always been and remains the same:
- Revert the anti face camp feature, you won't need it with the following.
- Remove the ability to 4% off the hook, its a dumb mechanic that lets survivors get out of the game without a DC penalty at worst, and at its best, it rewards survivors with pure luck that allows them to turn a match around with no skill involved.
- All survivors now share the 1st hook state. The struggle phase only happens once those hook states have been burned through.
- This means that if you hard tunnel someone out, you have to hook them 6 times to kill them and the earliest a survivor can be removed is after 6 hooks. If you can't win a game in 6 hooks from someone ignoring other survivors, you are just bad at the game.
- Replace AFC with something similar to the pyramid head mechanic. If a killer is within 16 meters of a hook for more than 10 total seconds, with a 5 second grace period, even if another survivor is nearby then do the following:
- The survivor on the hook i teleported to the hook that is CLOSEST the survivor who is FURTHEST from the killer.
- This means that if the killer camps you are guaranteed to get the save within 15 seconds.
- Proxy camping is already heavily nerfed with the 6 hook state thing, because if someone proxy camps, just ignore it and slam gens and you'll finish 5 gens before you burn through 6 minutes of hook states.
- Remove basekit BT and replace with the following mechanic:
- After being unhooked, a survivor gains the Ethereal status effect for 30 seconds. The Ethereal status effect does the following:
- The survivor has no collision with the killer or other survivors
- The survivor is invisible to the killer
- The survivor makes no noise to the killer
- The survivor makes no scratch marks
- The survivor moves at 200% movement speed
- The survivor can see the aura of all other survivors
- The survivor is unable to do any conspicuous action
- The survivor is unaffected by all killer or survivor perks
- After the ethereal status effect ends, the survivor is fully healed.
- This will do many different things:
- first it makes tunneling literally impossible, you can't tunnel what you can't see, hear, or collide with.
- Secondly, it gives the survivor a "time out" so now the killer KNOWS that the survivor that was hooked, can't do anything while they are hooked, and after they are unhooked they know they have a full 30 seconds of timeout where they know that survivor can't do anything, so they KNOW they aren't doing anything productive for a while.
- Thirdly, it gives the survivor a chance to get to safety and avoid the killer. If they can't get somewhere safe within 30 seconds, they are doing something wrong.
- Fourthly, it can't be abused by survivors who want to use the mechanic to body block the person who unhooked them, because they have 0 collision.
- After being unhooked, a survivor gains the Ethereal status effect for 30 seconds. The Ethereal status effect does the following:
- Rework the concept of a win/draw.
- Survivors now win/lose/draw as a team, and not as individuals (right now an escape is a win for the individual even if the other 3 died, and hatch is always a draw, even if they all died at 5 gens.)
- A draw is 6 hooks
- A slight loss for the killer is 4-5 hooks
- A big loss for the killer is <4 hooks
- A slight win for the killer is 7-8 hooks
- A big win for the killer is 9+ hooks
If they did this, and then monitored gen times, and win rates for a little while and then start making tweaks to the base gen times, or base regression and so on, you'd see a much better much healthier and much more fun game for everyone, where hooks are incentivized instead of chases.
- Revert the anti face camp feature, you won't need it with the following.
I don't disagree but I don't agree neither, I think the anti face camp is like a "Attention, dangerous dog inside" even if there is no dog. It kinda work in sens that some of the killers don't stay by fear that you escape, I saw really less face camping since. It was something that was breaking the fun, but I understand your point with your whole solution, it would be useless.
- Remove the ability to 4% off the hook, its a dumb mechanic that lets survivors get out of the game without a DC penalty at worst, and at its best, it rewards survivors with pure luck that allows them to turn a match around with no skill involved.
- All survivors now share the 1st hook state. The struggle phase only happens once those hook states have been burned through.This means that if you hard tunnel someone out, you have to hook them 6 times to kill them and the earliest a survivor can be removed is after 6 hooks. If you can't win a game in 6 hooks from someone ignoring other survivors, you are just bad at the game.
I think that's not a bad idea at all, for that you need to make the game last longer tho, the gens would need to take more than 90 seconds to be completed...(I think)
Overall I think you have a good understanding of the core problem, it's just I don't think the devs will go that far to fix that issue. It's a huge amount of changes and that is also why I just propose points adjustment.
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It's not fun because there is no punishment to land your skill. You can miss and just hit again right away -_-... What is the point to play a killer if you don't rewarded for good plays?
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I DODGE NOTHING, I FEAR NO ONE, COME AT ME SURVIVORS XD >:)
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640084#Comment_3640084
Are we talking about the same charity tournament ?
Mine was the Dead by Discord, it's the official community tournament from the discord server.
I was team "roadkills" (NA)
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640031#Comment_3640031
The singularity match.
I forgot to ask you if it was NA or EU.
but I don't remember that the rules were left out at 1 gen... ô_o
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640030#Comment_3640030
Correct, there was a total of 1 unhook and the rest died on 1st hook.
That's normal you got 17k then and it was not your fault. I think if you tunnel one by one, you will get more points than that, but the survivor you tunneled between 5-4 gens will have between 4-8k.
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I like it for the only reason that imply making place for new feature :O
can't wait for the menu to be filled again :)
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@Murgleïs said:
I watched this tournament and it was hilarious how nobody could defined what was tunneling.
There was a killer who got injures and downs too fast and was accused of not letting the survivors unhook each others (which was against the rules). He was penalized for being too efficient.
Also at 1 gen left the anti tunneling / slugging / camping rule was removed and you could do whatever, proving once again that even in a pro-nice anti tunneling tournament, you can’t balanced around 12 hooks.
Which team was that?
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639982#Comment_3639982
Currently when it comes to BPs, you DO get rewarded for more hooks. I had a game earlier with a 4k at 4 gens left. 5 hooks total... I got 17k BPs for that. The game did NOT reward me with 30-40k.
Ok hold on.
You got 17k, 5 hooks, so it means someone got save and the others died on hook?
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@pseudechis said:
Did survivors have any limitations in this tournament or was it all attenuated killer play?
Doesn't sound that fun really.
Part of the game is the risk that comes with early elimination, tunneling is countered by team play body blocking taking threat and interrupting chases.
No offering, no add-ons, no duplicated perks.
The killer could bring add-ons and offer mori, there was something about the mori, I think it was only 1 mori per team.
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@Quizzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639885#Comment_3639885
Well for one, it's just a video game. So I will never let my mental health be in jeopardy because someone plays in a poor sport way. And we all tried to explain how tunneling is causing people to not enjoy the game to the devs as a whole. But they won't apply any new mechanics to punish them for it, so we have no choice but to just adapt to it or just gg go next.
I am not providing a mechanic, you still can tunnel, but there is something encouraging to not play that way.
Do you have any proof of official response about tunneling?
I'd like to read it.
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@Xendritch said:
Nah tunneling has always been around and how strong it's been has varied but people have always done it. We also know what happens when you make tunneling weak and that's just as bad because survivors will absolutely abuse it.
The DS/Unbreakable meta was terrible to play with because of you tunneled you ate a 5 second stun, if you slugged they got up for free, and if you just left them alone they did gens and everyone had this so it created a scenario where if you were good enough 3/4 survivors were basically untouchable at the same time because you hooked them too rapidly. It was so bad that that actually did almost kill the game because nobody wanted to play killer because it was too frustrating I don't remember the exact numbers but it was something like 3 killers for every 100 survivors when you need 25 to maintain decent queue times. This is what lead to the giant perk and killer update right after Dredge released.
Has there been an overcorrection since then? Maybe but I don't think survivor is anywhere near as bad as killer was back then. But I don't think you could ever kill tunneling without making killer stupid strong or stupid weak. You can bring 5 second DS back and I think even that would do barely anything atp. At least for soloQ in SWF one good teammate with a flashlight legit makes tunneling a nightmare so at least there's that.
That's why I am also talking about points and not game mechanics. So it provides an attraction to not tunnel but you still can do it.
On the other hand if the survivors are stupid and they are just body blocking you, put themself in your way, don't hook them, let them on the ground, it's -1 person doing a gen, less progress.
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@Gastongard said:
This wont change unless BHVR acknowledge that killer games should be more about hooks and not kills. If the game gives you 30-40k BP for tunnelling and doing 4-5 hooks and gives you 15-25k BP for doing 12hooks, then of course killers will choose the easy way, because the game rewards you for doing that. But its not the same for survivors, survivors that only do gens, sneak the killer, and almost dont do altruistic actions, but they do escape, then you will get 10-18k BP tops and maybe 1 pip.
So the game its unbalanced from the get go. This even happens with tomes, survivor challenges can throw a game, but for killer its the opposite, the objective is always do something that is already an objective in a common game. So this also incentives horrible teammates
Yeah it's about the reward for good plays. It's not there, it's missing incentives to make the game fun.
You reminds me of a challenge that was there during the christmas event, it was like "kill the obsession" something like that and I was like c'mon, this encourage tunneling the obsession to get your christmas reward. XD
I hope a dev will read that post so much and maybe even participate in the conversation.
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At the end I think the simpliest solutions are:
1) Making tunneling less rewarding
2) Making not tunneling more rewarding
3) Mix of option 1 and 2
by adjusting points in regards of:
- The amount of gens left;
- The time duration between 1st and 2nd hook of the survivor.
So you still can play like that, but there is something trying to encourage you to not do that. So it keeps the "you play like you want" but there is something telling you, it's not the optimum way.
I personnaly would prefer making tunneling less rewarding: not making points, making less points, loosing points is a greater incentive in my opinion than giving more points to not tunnel, because you still reward the frustrating behavior just less. The solution should not be black or white neither, it should depends on the amount of gens left and the amount of times the player have been hook.
For example, keep in mind, I didn't think deeply about the amount of times, points, but I want you to understand the big picture of my idea:
- 5 gens, tunnel twice during 60 seconds after the unhook: negative points.
- 5 gens, tunnel twice during 90 seconds after the unhook: no points.
- 5 gens, two different hook during 90 seconds: hook points + 1000 BP
If they prefer the 2nd options, I will still be happy because something would have been done to motivate an alternative playstyle.
Don't get me wrong, it's not about winning or loosing here, it's about fun. Being tunnel at 5 gens, is not fun, it's making people quit the game cause there is NO REASON to NOT do that.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639908#Comment_3639908
The original post brought up that killers were not allowed to slug, otherwise they'd get negative points. As long as 1 survivor was in the general area of any chase, they could just get the easiest flashlight saves while knowing the killer would get dinged for points if they did anything besides instantly pick up. I KNOW you wanna talk about tunneling, but for some reason you decided to include these rules that just seem very exploitable. I'm just imagining a 4k at 5 gens resulting in the killer losing because they had -5 points for breaking the rules.
I brought up that rule, because that rule was part of the reason it was making the tournament more fun than the actual game, even for killers, because they had to think twice before slugging, they were keeping that option at the end or for the right opportunity to make that kind of pressure a really significant move, instead of doing it at 5 gens and just gg. They were allowed to slug, but just once.
You could look around, make sure to position yourself to not get flashlight before picking up. Just not letting the survivor there and start another chase more than once, it was also fine to hit a survivor in between if one was around waiting for the save.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639870#Comment_3639870
People also keep saying that "tunneling is worse than ever" every year. Whether or not it is actually worse, it's never caused the game to die.
That's not true. Look at the statistic, it's a slow death. It does not mean there is not radically 0 that it's not happening. I can tell by my surrounding, my friends, that they are not playing as much or either not playing anymore because of TUNNELING at 5 gens.
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@Moonras2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3639906#Comment_3639906
This, I hate tunneling or being tunneled but it's hard to reward or punish it. You can't punish a killer for a survivor being unhooked and running towards the killer to take a hit for someone else. Which makes it hard to punish at all because there's always going to be a loophole.
I am not sure I understand, you are saying that I survivor could intentionnally make the killer loose points by getting down and hook?
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/404034/is-tunneling-killing-the-game
Was just curious, how does punishing a killer for slugging NOT result in 4 flashlights? If the killer has to pick up immediately or face penalties, wouldn't this just mean it's 100% safe for survivors to openly wait for flashlight saves? Chasing any of them after a down=slugging...
I am not sure I understand your question.
Here I am more talking about tunneling at 5 gens.
If survivors are bullying you by using flashlights, at some point the game does not progress and they will loose.
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@Quizzy said:
It's better to just honestly let it go and just "take it." Because devs will not do anything to change tunneling in this game, even if it ruins the experience of that one person getting tunneled and sacrificed at 5 gens. All they can do is give us perks and basekit BT to help, that's it.
Personally, I do bring antitunnel perks, but even then it's sad that I have to rely on them for myself. Because it doesn't stop the killer to tunnel someone else and ruin their experience.
So what I do is, if someone is tunneling me without antitunnel perks, I just give up. Because I can choose to not play with someone that ruins the experience of other people. We can't report them, and they can't report us for it. Or if someone else is tunneled out at 5 gens. They playing boring, I respond by playing boring and hide which prolongs the match even further. But overall, they won't do anything. It's better to just handle it on your own terms that doesn't require harassment, threats etc in the endgame. Move on and hope for a better match.
I don't agree with that.
Because it will continue and become worst. Peope will leave the game, Q will be longer than ever to simply play a ######### game :/
it's like saying let yourself abuse, it will be end faster. no.
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Listen guys, I don't think the solution is complicated, simply: DO NOT make that behavior REWARDING.
If the killer hook a survivor, twice in a row inside x minutes (I don't know the amount, I'd the say 90 seconds, the time of an entire gen, we can argue all day on the amount of times) give him negative points or none depending the amount of gens left, it needs to be punishing but still available. So people who ONLY do that, will suffer from it in regards of BP, of buying offering, buying add-ons, buying perks.
OR
You can give MORE points to unhook a different survivor inside x minutes
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@Ivory_Partnaite said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3276138#Comment_3276138
You should look at all of the perks, Pharmacy is a Quentin perk that guarantees a medkit on the first chest you search.
Oh my god wow, I didn't know that thanks for the info
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I have to admit the one with "no longer exhausted or exposed" could make for some really fun videos on youtube... But besides that I don't like the idea... 99 all chests and try to reach one if needed... Dunno mate... The rest of the survivor perk idea sound alright to me... Not particularly strong but okay.
ANSWER: I don't understand the 99 all chests part... but yeah it's more like a concept and have something new, we don't have much chest related perk, just one I think.
I don't really like the killer perk ideas though... Thicker mist is really annoying for both sides, but I find it more annoying for the killer to spot things in the distance to be honest... The scratch mark thing is also not really a good idea because even if you saw them for 20 seconds... Do you really want to close a gap of like 80 m? You are going to throw the entire game if you follow that scratchmarks XD How about the scratch marks of the survivor closest to the hook become visible through walls for xy seconds after hooked... maybe even make it a scourge hook or something?
The soul part seems more like a power than a perk to be honest...
ANSWER: I think we already have a perk like that about visible through walls for xy seconds after hooked... maybe I am wrong but in the case it does not exist, yeah would be much better and yes the soul part would be more a power than a perk.
Double unhook sounds annoying af... You'll need like 3 people to get an unhook and even then like 2 might go down... Not a fan... Also the camping potential on killers without insta down would increase massively since it would take so long to unhook and meanwhile you can get hits left and right.
ANSWER: Oh yeah it's annoying asf, it could be a nice way to use dead hard too even if it's not everyone who equip it. Imagine you have sleapery meat and it worked but you are still hook... Yeah can be tricky, I admit.
The cloud thing sounds interesting in general... But movementspeed decrease in general and bound to perks in particular are really rough... The point about weskers slow is that there are so many antidotes that you can basically always cleanse, it is only for passive game slowdown but you need to keep track of the infection to not get fully effected... Risk reward: Do you work on the gen longer now or not take the risk and get a spray first to be safe...
Some of the "perk" Ideas for the killer could turn into a power that could be interesting, but I don't like it as perks... A perk that slows down a survivor is a terrible idea.
ANSWER: Maybe instead of influencing movements speed, you just have the cloud over your head with thunderstorms, she just know where you are until the cloud disappear, it's a matter of looping the killer long enough.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3276134#Comment_3276134
What, Sheva is more important in her game than Carlos is in his
ah yes.
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yeah totally, I can imagine a skin for Dwight as Christ Pratt...
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@furret534 said:
I believe the main reason is that it’d most likely take a full character rework to balance her. I personally believe she’s fine base, her add ons are just too powerful for an already powerful ability.
This^ and because you need to be good, it's not an easy killer to play, it's not easy to evaluate your teleport distance.
Also, one of the way to counter the nurse is just to go in her initial direction so she will attack behind you.
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I already made a post in "Feedback and Suggestion" about an idea, I think it would be great to see Lara Croft as a survivor with chest related perks, like "Guarantee aids kit when you open a chest" and Himiko as a killer, but no body upvoted :(
@Frizouw said:
Hi,
I just want to share an idea I got, in case it's a good one.
At this point, since we have Resident Evil survivors and killers, I think it would be great to see Lara Croft as a survivor and Himiko as a killer.
Knowing that Lara Croft is a tom raider, that would be nice to have perk related to chest, like:
- If you open a chest, you see the killer for 5/8/10 seconds
- If you open a chest, you are guaranteed to get a healing item but the quality is random
- If you open a chest, you are guaranteed to get a flashlight
- If you open a chest you are guaranteed to get a toolbox
- The first chest you open will restock in 180/160/120 seconds
- if you open a chest, you are not longer exhausted or exposed
Also, knowing that the killer "Himiko" is about "Weather Manipulation, Soul Transference, Manipulation" her perks could be like:
- When you hit/damage a generator/hook the mist thicken for 180 seconds
- When you hook a survivor you see the marks longer
- When you hit a survivor the survivor leave soul behind him, you can use those souls to be immune to stun or become in rage like the Oni.
- It's possible to curse a hook and the survivor need to be unhook twice to be unhook once
- She can throw cloud over your head so she can follow you for a little moment, or she can make the cloud rain on you and it makes you slower over times like Wesker .
I don't know guys, I have so much ideas. I just wanted to share and know what y'all think :)
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I am not that sure for Shiva but I think Chris and Claire should have been characters even more than Rebecca.
Shiva is more like...a companion in RE5.
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I also hope we could turn off the plague whispers...