Coffee2Go
Coffee2Go
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
So, all of this is focused on making the match easier for killers.
For example, if we're considering "outliers", as you call it, we're focusing on bringing down SWF and bringing up "lower tier" killers, but why not also consider "the blight with quad slowdown hard tunneling at 5 gens on a 1500+ win streak"? Should that not also be a consideration?
I'm not necessarily opposed to "bringing up lower tier killers" in theory, but if there's one lesson we should be learning from 9.0 above anything else is that a system or mechanic that "evaluates how players are playing" is never going to work.
MMR barely functions, and the only thing that looks at is the end result, not the means of getting there. Adding complexity, especially using subjective criteria (like "how" someone plays), is not going to make a better system.
MMR barely functions because for it to work as intended you need a playerbase higher like most esport games like siege, rocket league etc.
Current mmr system is designed to prevent long queues and discard the fact you as a 100h player goes againts 1k hour killer just because you got to escape many times and bump up the MMR.
And even in those games players sadly get put in lobbies because nobody actually has their MMR so the devs make it so you get matched with 100-200~~diff
The system will be fully locked in place as a reinforcement for that and secure that games even if you get put in higher end lobbies you will enjoy the match and not hate it because in high end lobbies the meta are those killers and perks.
Same goes for lower end mix of mmr.
And yeah almost every comp game wont add this system because it would not really make sense for them to add it in their games due to not having perk system, unique killer abilities, map offerings etc.
This would be really ideal for DBD as a game
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
So, all of this is focused on making the match easier for killers.
For example, if we're considering "outliers", as you call it, we're focusing on bringing down SWF and bringing up "lower tier" killers, but why not also consider "the blight with quad slowdown hard tunneling at 5 gens on a 1500+ win streak"? Should that not also be a consideration?
I'm not necessarily opposed to "bringing up lower tier killers" in theory, but if there's one lesson we should be learning from 9.0 above anything else is that a system or mechanic that "evaluates how players are playing" is never going to work.
MMR barely functions, and the only thing that looks at is the end result, not the means of getting there. Adding complexity, especially using subjective criteria (like "how" someone plays), is not going to make a better system.
We are considering it for killers too?
Is the post not clear on helping the survivors too?
The whole point is for the system to work neutral ways and have a directive to make it fair play between two roles
And i did mention in the post it will collect collective data across entire match history aka see how long it took to finish the match, what made the match finish so fast, why it finished so fast, which items were used, perks, killers.
and most importantly player playstyle if the killer spent most of their times hooking and not downing and kicking gens and playing fair it will also see that.
The system will work and i can put my life at stake on it because machine learning is really good at figuring out patterns and finding out root cause of issues, even though devs and we know what the root issue is, the system in place for that will work.
I do apologies if it was not clear in the post.
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For anyone wondering i am totally 100% with you by not nerfing perks that help you win againts certain killers that have high pick rate due to their abilities that help secure the win by them running certain builds.
Thats why the system will only mainly trigger and work behind the scenes for the killers and survivors, i really do understand the struggles when you play with randoms againts a killer with abilities, then i also understand why people play with friends its to win more and not be put in a match with people that dont have synergy to counter those builds
This is why this system should be at least experimented with in PTB and see how it goes by the devs.
It will fully leave you alone if you match with players alike your caliber, if you match with people that dont match you the system will activate and it can still be adjusted and tuned the way devs want it to be, it will just be supplied by monthly stat recap and match history to be really precise and know what actually makes players not wanna play.
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@Crowman said:
Players can also choose to changed their perks after they've been nerfed in a patch. This is such an unnecessary extra step to avoid nerfing the problem perks.
Also the system works within inside of the system basing its decision by match history of said players and learn from that, it wont really be a nerf and buff system its more about balancing fun and fair play for everyone to not get salty and mad about their game results.
Its more about keeping players intact and make the playerbase grow and expand, i have ran the tests myself and been thinking about it
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@Crowman said:
Players can also choose to changed their perks after they've been nerfed in a patch. This is such an unnecessary extra step to avoid nerfing the problem perks.
The constant nerfs and buffs will just make players leave the game and not return, look at the state of the forum most posts are about exactly that, and the higher the mmr the higher chances you get to be put in a lobby with people that can still switch up their builds to match the nerfs specifically either a 3 man premade or full that are highly cordinated and know what they are doing with perk builds, this step is necessary to battle exactly that.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956699#Comment_3956699
but you think a system that stealth nerfs perks in lobby wouldn't get a similiar reaction?
My bad! I did write it in my drafted post but it deleted my written progress how it should notify the players in pre-lobby that the values have decreased potential etc.
I will edit the OP
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956699#Comment_3956699
but you think a system that stealth nerfs perks in lobby wouldn't get a similiar reaction?
It would not stealth nerf the perks? It would show up in the pre lobby that if they run that build it will decrease the value they get out of the perk build as a team.
They can make icon warning or they see it on their OSD near perks.
Players can then choose to switch up perks that might give them better values in other places than what they want to win faster or in an "unfair" way which is open to debate but i would say we all know what unfair means when you matchmake.
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@Crowman said:
This seems like more effort than just nerfing these things in the first place.
If they do the nerfs the devs will just cause people to stop playing the builds overall and it might not even be fun for them and it will become a boycot and pitchforks where people leave the game if their meta build gets either nerfed to oblivion or fully removed and changed up.
This effort is needed to allow more freedom between perk builds so people can keep using meta builds but the system will see that their goal is to keep winning by running these builds only and not to have fair match.
Also do read up a bit about MMR too since it would also lower the perk build efficiency if the matchmaking puts you up againts more experienced players
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@xGodSendDeath said:
You can't punish people for playing with their friends!
That was fast!
Please read what ive said in the post, its not about punishing and it wont punish even if its friends, only if it see's a pattern.
Ive seen enough posts already i decided to take matter in my own hands to finally suggest something that wont nerf perks and killers and survivors globally, it would leave majority of players alone and focus on the ones that make the gameplay not fun! It might be fun for them but not to us!
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@smurf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956176#Comment_3956176
It's just weird to me that other people talk about whole teams hiding, but I have never experienced it myself. I definitely accept that this happens to you, but I wonder what causes the difference. If some people experience this often, I would think this would be something that I would at least have seen occasionally on stream.
The only instance I've ever seen was a very weird swf streaming, with each other as viewers that I happened to drop in and see. They called out the killer's location and hid for most of the game. I did wonder why the killer wasn't finding them, but they were also clearly out of their depth. It was very sad to watch :/
It is known that sometimes a survivor player will hide and not do much for an entire match. Those do occur, and usually doom their team when it happens.
They could be playing in a party but maybe not or only 2 play in a party and 1 of them dies and spectates the other person and tells them to hide and stall to get a hatch but its so bad because i often feel like a black sheep doing majority of objectives and rescuing others as best as i can
I wont glorify myself and say im the greatest but i can say i safely can do on average 1 guaranted gen or 2 if the team completely sucks by sucking i mean they die in minutes at 5/4 gens left.
But i do get good squad often too its generally a gamble honestly for me its 50 50 when i click play, and by good i mean we do most gens 1 gen left and 2 or 3 survivors left we manage to escape which is a win for me it feels rewarding to do most gens but sometimes annoying
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@smurf said:
My opinion is that extreme hiding appears to be an issue that never needed solving as it essentially never happens. I know that personally, I've seen exactly one case of hiding that was ever problematic for a killer, whether I was the killer or when watching any of a number of streamers, which I do nearly every day.
Is there any evidence shown by anyone that this is genuinely a problem? I don't believe it at all at the moment, and currently suspect it was a massive waste of time and resources for BHVR.
I guess it's possible that people who play killer by tunneling, proxy camping, and slugging for 4k are more likely to see such behavior, as people playing survivor in such matches might be inclined to not even interact with the killer. But at that point, why are we punishing people who got BMed by giving them AFK crows?
I will agree that survivor teams suffer if one player does a disproportionate amount of hiding and doesn't take chase when they need to. Maybe in that context, AFK crows make some sense.
It happens in almost every second or third game when i play myers for me as a killer i play on ps5 they can see im on console i would say i play avg killer i obey the rules, if i see flashlights i run lightborn if i dont see it then i dont.
I swear its the play with friend squads that run flashlights that do this behavior.
Meanwhile on survivor side i get them almost every next game or every second game, they reset it by running around doing totems and chests and spend few seconds repairing then dipping across the universe and hiding entire match refusing to even do half a gen or go unhook their mate across the other map where killer isnt located at.
I run killer info aura perk to help out when there is one person hooked and we all see each other so it just is them
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I would like this added, i play both sides and i see my randoms camp or well refusing to do any gens or unhook, first i thought they were planning to self heal but no.
When playing a killer i often get left with 2 survivors who are both 2nd hook state and they refuse to do any gens for entire rest of match and only decide to go in and light tap to be annoying, they will just eventually hide in lockers for long and move across map throwing.
I dont abandon because yeah i dont fully mind its just a game it doesnt tilt me its just unfair and childish behavior.
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@AmrHanyONI said:
Core Idea:
Implement a separate, killer-specific rating system called Adaptive Generator Repair (AGR). This system dynamically adjusts generator repair speeds for Survivors based on the player's recent performance with that specific Killer, decoupling it from overall MMR. The goal is to balance matches around individual Killer strengths/weaknesses and player skill, reducing frustration when playing weaker Killers or against high-MMR opponents.How AGR Works:
- Killer-Specific & Player-Specific:
- Each Killer has its own independent AGR value for each player.
- Example: Your Huntress AGR is different from your Nurse AGR, even if your overall MMR is high.
- Based on Hooks (Core Metric):
- AGR tracks your average hooks per match with that Killer over recent games.
- Target Baseline: An average of 6-9 hooks per match is considered "neutral" (standard gen speeds).
- Dynamic Generator Speed Adjustments:
- > 9 Hooks Avg: Generators become slightly easier (+1 speed modifier) for Survivors in your next matches.
- 3-6 Hooks Avg: Generators become slightly harder (-1 speed modifier) for Survivors.
- 0-2 Hooks Avg: Generators become significantly harder (-2 speed modifier) for Survivors.
- 6-9 Hooks Avg: Generator speed remains standard (neutral).
- Interaction with MMR:
- MMR: Controls who you match with (Survivor skill level).
- AGR: Controls generator repair speed during the match.
- They are separate but can interact. Example:
- A high-MMR player trying a new/unpracticed Killer starts with neutral AGR (baseline). Even against good Survivors, gens start at standard speed.
- If they perform poorly (low hooks), AGR drops quickly, making gens harder next match, compensating for the Killer's weakness or lack of practice.
- If they perform well (high hooks), AGR rises, making gens slightly easier, preventing steamrolls.
Key Benefits & Problems Solved:
- Balances Killer Weaknesses: Makes weaker Killers (e.g., Trapper, Freddy) significantly more viable. Players aren't punished as harshly for their choice.
- Reduces "Must Pick Meta" Pressure: Players can experiment with diverse Killers without guaranteed losses against competent Survivors. Strong Killers (e.g., Nurse, Blight) won't always dominate if the player struggles (low hooks → harder gens).
- Fairer High-MMR Matches: Prevents scenarios where a high-MMR player using a low-tier Killer faces impossible gen pressure. AGR dynamically adjusts the challenge.
- Improved New Killer Experience: Starting a new Killer feels less punishing, as gens aren't instantly flying against your high MMR.
- Dynamic Match Pacing: Gen speeds become an adaptive mechanic, reflecting the current performance of the Killer player, not just static Killer strength.
- Reduces Stale Win/Loss Streaks: The system self-corrects faster than MMR alone, preventing endless wins or losses by adjusting the core objective difficulty.
Example Scenarios:
- New Player (Huntress): Starts avg MMR/avg AGR. Wins 3 games → MMR rises, gens get easier (Survivors better). Loses badly (0-1 hooks) → MMR drops slightly, but AGR drops sharply → Next match: Slightly worse Survivors (lower MMR) but significantly harder gens.
- High-MMR Player Switches Killer: You dominate as Nurse (High MMR/High AGR → gens slightly easier). Switch to The Ghost Face (High MMR / Neutral AGR). First match: Against strong Survivors (high MMR) but standard gen speeds. If you get few hooks, AGR drops fast → harder gens next match.
- Mastering a "Weak" Killer: You main Trapper. Consistently getting 6-9 hooks? Gens stay standard. Start consistently getting 10+ hooks? Gens get slightly easier, acknowledging your skill but preventing easy 4ks. Have a bad match (2 hooks)? Gens get much harder next time, giving you breathing room.
Implementation Notes:
- Clear Thresholds: The hook ranges (0-2, 3-6, 6-9, 9+) and speed modifiers (-2, -1, 0, +1) are placeholders needing tuning.
- Transparency: Players should understand AGR exists and its basic impact (e.g., "Generator Difficulty Adjusted" in lobby).
- Survivor Perception: Frame gen speed changes as "adaptive challenge" or "Killer pressure influence," not direct punishment.
Conclusion:
The AGR system offers a dynamic, player-centric approach to balance. It empowers players to choose any Killer without facing inherent disadvantages tied solely to the Killer's power level, while adding strategic depth through adaptive match pacing. This could significantly improve Killer satisfaction, roster diversity, and overall match health in Dead by Daylight.Nice core idea.
What do you think about Ai machine learning dynamic balancing between MMR + AGR?
Since i wrote up a post about how devs should add a system that learns from match history such as outcomes and what resulted lets say a killer losing so fast not having any kills or hooks and also the ai knowing why the killer keeps winning.
It would keep an eye for each month and draw fresh data and stats from players and match history and work alongside the existing MMR system and hopefully help with balancing the game inside out.
The problem is if devs keep manually balancing stuff it will never be "perfect" but with AI we can reach sorta "close to perfect" state.
With this it can prevent bad miss matched player matches if the game puts you in a lobby with certain players that have way higher playtime than you.
I think honestly the gens should stay where they are now but the AI is a must to help balance the perk meta builds in real time "pre lobby"
- Killer-Specific & Player-Specific:
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@Mandy said:
Whilst you might not like the behaviour - this is not holding the game hostage as survivors are on a bleedout timer and it's NOT reportable - please do not waste the time on our Support staff which is then delaying correct reports.
(edited the title to reflect that none of this is reportable behaviour)
Finally some common sense.
Thank you.
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My best tip is if you are a solo you should run a build designed to know which direction the killer is located at and to hide your marks and just do gens for most bloodpoints in the event, if i manage to be left with 1 gen left and left all alone i basically simply die and get away with 115k - 155k bloodpoints.
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I kill only once time per year entire night.
(Easy to guess)
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954626#Comment_3954626
I dont think using "ai for dynamic balancing" or whatever you are suggesting is a good idea.
I would like to know why you think so?
Like lets be realistic here? It would allow real time nerfs and buffs if needed without devs to do any major changes and balancing out certain perks constantly, and if needed they can always change base value or the perks they want and then send the updated changes to the AI so it will never overshoot or undershoot with balancing the game in favor of whats fair and not for what is fair for what people think is fair, some people here simply like to bully starting killers or non meta killers and thats how the meta killers are born, same goes for why people simply dont want to play solo and play with friends and run said perks.
Generally speaking it would bring way more balance and fairness to the game than what devs can accomplish in short time and actually the ai would prevent meta builds from ruining the match for either killer or survivors before the match even starts, fully eliminating players uninstalling game because they end up getting only blight or nurse with meta builds, it would kinda make players feel more free when they choose killers that are M1 and not meta, same with survivors they will finally be able to be like oh finally we dont need to do gen rush and always bait with one of our friends thats good at hugging the wall etc
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@SpringMyTrap said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954618#Comment_3954618
or just make the game have a better wincon than escapes-kills and make more functional matchmaking based on that.
another issue is that this game keeps being built and balanced around teamwork too much. teamwork is too good and it's the only option survivors really have because the game is revolving too much around optimizing the time sink objectives and managing resources.
If i recall is it not the goal for survivors to do gen and escape, but also their emblem and grades rely on also healing and unhooking and playing around that too.
Them to just focus on balancing game around wincon would just eventually lead to rebellion on forums again eventually once they figure out whats the next "meta", it would remove a lot of chaos sure but not the entire root of the problem.
With the ai in play the ai can nerf the meta builds as it pleases if it sees that players are gettings wins by not their actual skill rather by stacking perks that allow them to actually force the killers that are not top end tier players in chases that end up with gens rush.
Same goes for top end killers that win by running certain killers and perks that fit them to win by that and not actual skills that you learn by playing the game for some time.
Ai would simply put an end to the whole meta builds if it sees that these players been getting higher MMR by playing with that and winning with that instead of actually playing the game as intended.
The devs have confirmed they have access to more in depth information about stats and perk info and match history, they can feed it into the ai.
The AI would not be so aggressive to starting players unless they also start winning by running meta perk builds and certain killers and if it sees your friend group has been using it, it will obviously get a bit sus and nerf the starting players but only if they actually rely on their perks alone
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@SpringMyTrap said:
this is what happens when you force killer to be casual and punish them for being competitive and force survivor to be competitive and punish them for being casual instead of letting both kinds of players play with each other rather than forcing them to coexist.
Exactly!
The game will never have peace and the players never satisfied with this approach of balancing.
We need something artificial monitoring players in real time applying nerfs but not the typical nerfs that would be noticable, it would be more in harmony.
I will try to give my best example how i visualize it would go if the top end killer ends up with casual pre made lobby of 4 stack.
Pre-lobby the ai will check for real time stats and match history and see that they reason why matched is because slower que times or region missmatch or simply that the friend squad stack is winning because of comms and actual skill and some perk stacking while the killer is top end player that mains certain killers that have both momentum and ability to cause havoc on those squads with certain perks in pair.
The killer will see eventually that his/her's perks are not working as intended or not as fast as they used to before but thats why soft tuning of ai exists to not be so aggressive its machine learning after all.
The survivor squad will also get a tiny debuff to their stacked perks but mostly neligible they would rather see that they cant just let 1 skilled player go juke the killer to do the gen rush like they used to in prior matches
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@Haildamage93 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954609#Comment_3954609
I understand what you're saying. I'm a variety gamer, and I'm not great at DBD either. But I don't boot up Call of Duty and expect to do as well as the people that strictly play Call of Duty. Devs can't balance a game around some people being able to play 8 hours a day and having incredible game sense in comparison to the average Joe that gets 2 hrs to play on a good day. That's not feasible. I just accept the fact that I'll never be at the skill ceiling and sometimes I'm going to get rolled. But that goes both ways. Even with my mid at best skill I still go against some killers and loop them like I'm JRM. It's not other people's responsibility to make sure I have fun every game. Nor is it mine to make sure someone else is having fun. There are alot of matches that end in my team getting 4kd that I still had alot of fun.
I think the mistake devs are doing is try to go in favor on both sides on top tier players and then to avg tier players by balancing around perks and causing chaos.
I would like them to try out a system that runs purely off of machine learning AI driven system and dynamically lower perk effectivness againts certain players in that elo that sadly get put in the match with a killer or a survivor squad that naturally have more time to be skilled and skillfully use the certain perks that can stack, and same goes you get your friends to play 4 stack, you guys go on winning streak and end up being matched with a brutal killer that is actually winning matches by stacking and playtime and knowledge.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954600#Comment_3954600
That could work but it seems very tricky. Idk that I'd want to affect what perks they want to bring that strongly.
I know its hard to imagine the wider picture but try to imagine dbd a game finally where the devs finally stop taking either a week or 2 or 3 weeks to constantly go back and forth with balancing the perks to prevent gen rush, killer winning really fast because they can just stack values to enhance their ability + speed.
They can always monitor the AI to not be so aggressive and it would do all this in real time and wont cost them much money to do so, i believe they have many bright smart devs that can figure out how to implement machine learning balancing feature in real time in pre-lobby" before match starts, it would realistically create peace between players in game and on forums constantly complaining about gen rush, killer slugging, bullying and so on.
It will take some time for the AI to catch speed to finally see and figure out what actually makes players win on daily basis at the top end of the food chain and in the lower food chain it wont do much only prevent top end squads or killers to use their builds to crush and stomp.
Easy as that, devs would secure world peace in game.
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@Haildamage93 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3954591#Comment_3954591
DBD is a PVP game. PVP games are inherently competitive. Everyone is playing to have fun, you're right. Winning is fun. People play to win to have fun. See how that works? Just because YOU don't want it to be a competitive game does not mean that it is not.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GCWK84OF8BQT/image.png
It's funny how this graph tells a different story than what you're saying.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8OCEQPMRVI02/image.png
And if you look at this one, you can see the spike in players when FNAF released, and….. would you look at that, there is more players in the low than in the highs before FNAF came out . They've literally GAINED players and you're trying to say they lost 30%.
As much as i agree with your statement i also disagree about the whole fun/winning part.
Listen i lost a lot of friends (irl ones) who got sick of me saying i play games for fun after i come home from work and i cant really grind games like they do since they are students and do online classes and spend most of their time playing video games at home.
I myself have a full time job and i cant afford practicing same move over and over and knowing every map and call out etc.
Same goes for dbd, why should this game be unwelcoming towards adults that have jobs and other tasks irl that prevent them to ever being sharp players.
I made a post about this and i think its best for devs to add AI in pre-lobby that works by checking real time stats of all players, my original post was about preventing SWFs from stacking perks but it would also be good at preventing miss match between matchmaking MMR, aka when que times are slow the match puts you in with higher tier players, so in those times thats when the AI shines and decreases the values of certain perks that players might use to have a 100% winrate againts lower end MMR players.
Because i honestly think the issue why people are not having "fun" is because on other hand you have killers that run certain builds that stack haste and ability and then you have survivors that do the same preventing other side of coins to have "fun".
So as much as PVP stands for what you say, as long as there is no ranked mode in the game official ranked mode, there is a singular mode and i know why devs went with it instead splitting modes, they are not crazy they keep their players in one singular mode to not lose players, if ranked is added it would split the playerbase in half and so cause the game to die out because people like rewards, progression, tiers, ranks, emblems.
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@UnicornMedal said:
I agree. Nerfing/buffing doesn't work for either side. They just need to be a different kind of mechanic altogether.
I made a post about devs adding an AI that tracks pre-lobby players and can see the real time stats of recent winning history, mmr, perk builds and which maps they win most at.
The ai would then decrease the players perk values if the perks are what makes them win and be untouchable and cause killers to slug and get 1 kill only and gen rush.
Same goes for top end killers who run the certain builds to get their haste speed and stack perks on their blight or some other killer like nurse to be speedy gonzales and punish even slight failure to the max.
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@Orthane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/449557/generators-are-pure-madness
the problem is if we change anything about gens the top killers will be even more oppressive and ruin the game entirely. Blight, Nurse, Ghoul, these 3 in particular are plagues on the game and already feel impossible to win against unless they're just bad or you're a 6000 hour player. The top tier killers are already too strong, so any changes to gen speeds would make them even more oppressive. Meanwhile the mid-low tier killers feel sometimes impossible to win as, almost like you have to tunnel and proxy camp + run 2-3 slowdowns if you even want a chance at winning. The power difference in killers is a huge issue, and until that's fixed nothing can be done about Generator speeds.
So just because of "top players" both survivor and killer sides.
The "rest of players" killer and survivor have to get punished?
Thats some hot take right there but i propose a dynamical back end system that would periodically slowly decrease the certain player values down to certain point to match their:
MMR, playtime, match result (which perks have been used the most to win)
Then it would make the game more equal in terms of what everyone on these forums want and that is to slow down the high mmr players that sadly get matched with newer starting players (both killer and survivors).
People wake up try to see that never ending balancing around high end players is wrong and causes more chaos than good.
The balance relies on adding AI to help make the game fair and you cant fool the AI, it will be able to see your real time stats, your real time perk usage, your most player character and use that to make the game fair for the other players u matched with.
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@Hexbadboy23 said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/Z9H07K1KH19W/img-5849.jpeg
The killer slugged us and he didn’t even pick us up he was trying to find the last survivor and this kind of stuff is very annoying and needs to be fixed anti slugged should be talked about. Matches have been going too quickly because a killer wants to end us in seconds by slugging.
Honestly if you know about the perks, there is perk the boon one that lets you pick yourself back up if you are near that radius so you can try running that and crawl into that totem radius if the killer is doing this on purpose but other than that nothing much you can do its not againts the rules, they are killer roles after all they dont get crows or penalties
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@camping_site said:
how long are we going to accept kill/escape rate stats as truthful when DC matches are disregarded including those where dc happened without penalty- a clear 4k??
They should include all matches. I’m fine if devs want 15% escape rate … just be honest about it. Gaslighting feels so demeaning.
I will try to add up to this, most and if not majority of my matches the people that DC usually are certain types of people
- 2 pre mades only (dc in pair)
- 1 single survivor wanting tomes and quests but killer kills and hooks
- and then entire pre made squad when they realize flashlights dont work on killer.
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@Rudjohns said:
The only real changes that we need are:
-Collision loss when at least 1 crow is on a survivor
-Picking up items doesn't do anything to avoid AFK crows
-Remove the AFK crows completely if 2 survivors are left in the game and 1 is slugged
I give +1 upvote, revert it back to most stuff apart from maybe the crow taking so long to appear, 10s was too quick for rotating, 30s is too long honestly as a solo survivor i can honestly "camp" around the map and hide infinitly by just clearing out the map and tapping gens then rotating around.
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@w0lferzTTV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952363#Comment_3952363
"Killers have more debuff and control tools." Yes. They also have add on's that they have access to the whole game compared to survivor that only have them for the duration of their item. Not to mention the amount of teleportation (some) and movement that killers get as a base speed. Killers have a higher base speed than any survivor. They also all have unique powers compared to survivors which allow them to have more control. Also, most haste things give you exhaustion or some sort of debuff for at least 40 seconds with most of them lasting only a few seconds.
If you look at how easy it used to be for survivors to do generators and stuff, you would know how much they nerfed it, making it take 25 seconds longer to do generators. Not to mention we have to do skill checks on everything we do (healing, generators, etc) and if we mess up, prolongs anything that we are trying to do.
To me, using SWF as an example as why the game is unbalanced for killer makes no sense when its only in high mmr MOST of the time. When you are running with a random group, the likelihood of people running perks that stack is very rare but if you change things for the high MMR people, you are also changing it for the average person. There is really no way of balancing a match with two solo's and a duo. That would have to be calculated before a match even starts where they are put with people on the same playing field. A new player (and I have seen it) should not be grouped up with a trio and a high mmr killer. I played killer and am no where near high mmr and have only gone up against a SWF once and yes they wreaked my world but why am I put up against them in the first place.
The MMR in this game sucks and hopefully they change it and do it right but saying that SWF is unbalanced when its not the average player is unfair to the average player.
Fully agree with the whole take you layed out and its the whole truth but then again why not have a system to battle High MMR, after all there is and always will be imbalance in MMR scaling for lets say new players and experienced ones that end up being put with high mmr players.
I was just saying the devs should focus on battling and focusing on making a system that actually does simply THAT, before actually readying up for the match to begin the system particullary chooses those two players or three or 4 that are pre made and have been winning the games mainly because of those perk usages, now there is already official tracker for which perks are mostly being used but i think devs can actually see more in depth match results what actually brought the win to the survivors.
Again if you try to understand the wider picture what im trying to explain which is to fully leave the solo q players alone because they fully lack comms and they are not in party they are fully relying on pure game sense what killers have to rely on because they are alone they cant communicate they rely on game sense, perks, addons like you say, and yes they do last entire game but thats because of 4 survivors.
My point is there needs to be a system that works along side the MMR system that is already in place which is clearly doing a bad job at putting new or average players in lobbies with higher end killers or higher end SWF squads.
Now i dont know how it will look like when devs add that thing in the pre match lobby for survivors to see their perks and that will offer randoms more power to match and stack perks by looking at each other perks and avoiding dupes
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@w0lferzTTV said:
I would like to mention the mass amount of generator regression perks that the killers can stack. They have perks that can effect how fast you heal and cleanse totems. Perks as examples:
All stackable Generator Regression Perks: Jolt, Pop Goes the Weasel, Overcharge, Scourge Hook: Pain Resonence, Dead Man's Switch.Thrill of the Hunt is a good perk if you are running Hex's so survivor's not only have to hunt down which Hex is the right one, you take 20 years to cleanse it because it nerfs it into oblivion.
Sloppy Butcher makes healing a pain.
Oh, and not to mention most Scourge Hooks make your progression on hook faster.
Let's also talk about the amount of debuffs that killers can put on survivors compared to what survivors can put on killers. Killers can inflict: Hemorrage, Mangled, Exposed, Madness, Blindness, Oblivious, Hindered, and Incapacitated.
Survivors can inflict: Blind, Stun, and Sabotage (sorry if I forgot one or two).
Not to mention the Survivor Perks that inflict debuffs on the Survivors themelves: Exhaustion, broken, and cursed. Killers also have perks/add-on that can extend any of those.As a mainly solo survivor, please explain to me how it this game is survivor sided?
I totally get where you're coming from killer perk stacking, especially in solo queue. Things like Pain Res, Pop, and Sloppy can snowball really hard, especially when you're not on comms. But I think the issue isn’t necessarily that one side is more powerful across the board it's more about how certain combinations of perks or playstyles (like SWFs with strong info and coordination) can tilt the match hard in either direction.
So yeah, killers do have more debuffs and control tools, but that’s kind of by design, they’re the power role. The flip side is survivors can stack haste, healing, or gen rush perks and loop well enough to shut a killer out entirely in 4 minutes.
I'm not saying survivors are weak or killers are OP, but I am saying the current static balance model doesn't always reflect how stacking meta perks in a SWF is a totally different beast than solo play. A data-driven tuning system could adjust values behind the scenes based on actual winrates/match speeds, not just gut feeling or anecdote.
This would not ruin the solo queue experience at all if the devs can make it correctly and put it into the game and play test it to perfection
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@Orvarihusklumpen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951497#Comment_3951497
I rarely go against 4-man SWF's that just goofs around. Maybe it's different in the US but in EU it's mostly "comp" 4-man SWF's, that is to say they hang around in the comp community of DBD doing scrims, 1v1's and use all the meta perks.
I play on EU but yeah i mostly get placed againts the SWFs as a killer but as a survivor its a bit more rare to get a 3 Or 2 SWF compared to 4 squad againts you as a killer.
And yeah they do run "meta" perks that stack values or can be rotated by each player that takes a hit and it does rely on skill to rotate that well i would say the perks make it a bit easier it gives them enough edge to rotate well and cycle their perks to cooldown.
I dont know how common they are in US region but in EU its really sweaty players who just want to mock and troll the killer
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@indieeden7 said:
Can you suggest any nerfs to SFW that wouldn't also hinder solo queue survivors that they may be playing with?
This would also kinda help preventing non stop perk adjustments buffs and nerfs each few updates due to meta and such, but its a bit hard to imagine it but i do not mean harm i want it to be more balanced and fair for even the randoms mainly randoms
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@indieeden7 said:
Can you suggest any nerfs to SFW that wouldn't also hinder solo queue survivors that they may be playing with?
Okay so just to point out a feature that the devs are working on its the one which allows survivors to see each other picked perks in the lobby, so i think the best way is then to as i said add that system that adjusts the perk values to certain values so that it would not harm the experience for the solo queue survivors.
And so hence i propose a system that basically adjusts itself according to if the premade has a win streak or not and up againts higher mmr killers, it would realistically only lower the value for the said team and not so much for the solo team players.
Example:
If those 2 premades who had like lets say most win streaks than losses decide to just play with 2 randoms, those 2 get a more heavy adjustment than the randoms but still noticable one if they decide to match perks with those 2 premades
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951576#Comment_3951576
This is all pretty standard stuff and isn't difficult to counter. Would you like some tips and tricks?
Yep that would be nice to know for future matches
I figured the only way to counter is to do a tight patrol on the last 3 gens, never over commit and such but yeah.
I mean i do get 1 kill but it feels better and enjoyable at 2 to make it a draw.
Its always usually they rotate in cycles until they deplete their perks that are one time use or have a insane cooldown and then if overcomiting to a chase you gamble your gens but yeah they you get what i mean
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951563#Comment_3951563
I would be curious to know these uncounterable perks.
Dead Hard
Off the Record
Decisive Strike
Borrowed Time
Adrenaline
We’ll Make It
Reactive Healing
Maybe few more that i versed but yeah i manage just enough to get my grade up to get bloodpoints and feel satisfied with the match but it would be nice to end up getting 2 kills at least and draw againts them
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Im not really 100% sure either how well the matchmaking system works lets say you kill a full squad really fast before they even finish one gen but then next match you kill nobody or get one or two hooks here and there and the rest the gens fly by and chases feel like they never end.
And also if you have a higher win streak as a survivor does it impact your killer MMR?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951540#Comment_3951540
This doesn't really sound like an issue. Sounds extremely niche.
I dont know all perks by memory but you can 100% stack them where it crushes certain and most killer perk builds because they just simply synergize with your other 3 friends who you have comms with that are in real time.
I saw a post where the devs do confirm that to be the case but again its niche as you say, its just one of those things that happens once in a while or maybe 2 times in a row and then you get games with people who abandon
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@UnicornMedal said:
Probably the best way to nerf SWF would be to add better matchmaking and comms to the game. That would bring them to roughly the same level as solos. The issue is that good matchmaking in DBD is an oxymoron and players, despite shouting to the heavens that this is a PVP game, are terrified of PVP interactions.
Yeah its quite something when i play lets say 10 to 20 survivor games i end up with few that generally just are that good that end up only get hurt and leave me to do most gens and then we escape but then some games where they throw and leave and get penalty for it.
And then there are some games where with a killer i get fair matches where its 2 to 3 kills and they get enough chase time and i get enough hunt time for my quests and progression but then there are games where there is 1 or 2 or 3 players like ones i was teamed with as a survivor that are untouchable unless you main only one person from them and even then its kinda like whats the point
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But then again i still stand againts the system that should be added to prevent stacking certain perks which cordinated in comms survivors can utilize to purposly make fun of the killer and not let both sides be on equal footing unless you end up chasing a singular person entire match to then get them to 2nd state of hooking
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Body blocking, baiting actions that lead to chained perk reactions from one survivor to another which leads to no downs or even chase time for killer much you practically escape, certain haste perks that can be stacked to refresh each other with certain hurt states.
Also for anyone wondering these should be the stats:
Match Type | Killer Win % | Survivor Escape %
--------------------------|--------------|-------------------
All Matches (All MMR) | 60% | 40%
High MMR Matches (1800+) | 63% | 37%
Solo Queue Survivors | — | 43%
2-Player SWF | — | 44%
3-Player SWF | — | 45%
4-Player SWF (Premade) | — | 49%
But its a bit confusing since the stats tend to not be perfectly accurate and unsure what is considered a "killer win" would it be 3 kills = win and 2 kills = draw?
Since with only 2 kills you can maybe max out gold grading that does not really give you much to progress from
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Yeah i agree with you about the stats but i was also making a point about only certain perks that offer survivors ability to do certain actions in game that make it so killer side cant get any bloodpoints out of that, its not the matter of winrate much more about how spread around the grading is and rewards for the match
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@Pulsar said:
Doesn't seem like a good idea, especially since even High MMR 4-Man SWF's don't escape more than 50% of the time.
There can be a system that is less punishing towards high MMR players and lower MMR players and as well when you mix lets say one of your friends is high MMR while you play with your other 2 or 3 friends that are more towards the killer MMR but still higher MMR than killer then it sort of equalizes to make it fair and correct.
But overall there can be a system that balances it out in the background while lobby is being filled before its ready to put in match, maybe machine learning which is being worked on by devs already