BenihimeWrath
BenihimeWrath
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@twocansofbean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2197493#Comment_2197493
what nerf are you thinking?
If I remember right, it came when they redesigned his addons. But that was back in 2.3, so the memory is vague at best. Perhaps I'm conflating PTB notes with actual release notes after that amount of time.
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@twocansofbean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2197488#Comment_2197488
bottom of his wiki
Wiki changelog isn't complete, thanks though I saw it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2197233#Comment_2197233
I mostly agree, but for different reasons. I think the devs should be regularly buffing weak killers and nerfing strong ones in order to minimize the gap between the strongest and weakest killer. This is great from a balance perspective because rather than having some killers overperforming while others are a struggle to use, all killers should perform similarly. The devs can therefore just focus on buffing or nerfing the killer role in general.
I'm not sure what you're talking about with Wraith; he's been consistently and gradually buffed over time, and almost always without corresponding nerfs. There are two legit nerfs in his entire history and one was part of a big net buff:
https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Philip_Ojomo#Change_Log
I would be more than happy to discuss the specifics of each nerf, if I could find a complete change log anywhere. I'm not really surprised nobody really remembers he got nerfed as it was always seen as an overall positive exchange.
I don't think it helps the game though to reduce the skill ceiling by nerfing killers. If you nerf the ceiling, then the average skill of the player base goes down, which is not what you want in a game that you need comfortably 1k hours in to be considered "competent" not even necessarily good at it.
What needs to happen is that weaker killers are buffed up to where stronger killers sit, and from there survivors can be buffed to account for the new, higher tier killers. This probably makes survivor players uncomfortable to read, but the unfortunate fact remains that survivor changes are going to have 4x the impact, so the systems need to already be in place for killers to succeed before survivors can get changed.
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Honestly at this point I think Ruin should just be a base mechanic for all killers, there has been no other solution to gen speed that has been acceptable to survivors for longer than current Ruin. Not a totem either, just there passively in the background so theres actually some base game mechanic rewarding killers for generating pressure.
The part I can't stop laughing about is that the killer basically commits 75% of their perk build for gen defense, and then survivors get upset that the gens are successfully defended with that opportunity cost. Honestly, get over yourselves, otherwise the solution is to give killers more perk slots so that each individual perk doesn't need to be that strong.
Furthermore, you do realize that asking to gut one of the most basic and honestly fair builds you are just asking for BVHR to turn around and gut survivors to deal with the new vacuum of power left behind in the killer role. I don't understand how survivors don't realize that even though the game is 4v1, the roles are symbiotic. The more powerful the killer role is allowed to be, the more impactful each individual survivor CAN be.
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Unpopular opinion but for the sake of game balance, all killers should eventually be buffed into the A or B tier. The more powerful the killer role is, the more impactful each individual survivor is allowed to be because the killer has the ability to manage them. Just nerfing killers is a kneejerk reaction, especially considering Wraith has always been nerfed with his buffs. Every single time he got one, they also detracted from somewhere.
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@Sup3rCatTree said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2194180#Comment_2194180
List counterplays
Let us consider the following. What is nurse's power when you strip it down to the nuts and bolts? It is a dash in a straight line, not dissimilar to billy, oni, or blight. The most obvious difference is that her dash ignores terrain. (Theres a blight joke in there I'm sure.) This, by its nature, makes nurse very good at a few things.
- High, but power dependent mobility.
- Punishing mistakes. (Including routing/looping nurse as if she is a normal killer.)
- Punishing poor situational awareness. (Not paying attention to the directionality of nurse's screams.)
With that said that means the more skilled a nurse player becomes the lower the bar is for the mistake necessary that it opens up survivors for punishment. Now, I would say it does not take particularly long to get to this point as a nurse player, which is moreso based on the fact that average solo queue survivors make many mistakes due to lack of information. This, however, does not translate well to a good game close out, which is how nurse can be a very strong killer, but have a very poor kill average.
Now, what are the drawbacks to this strong power? A stun that can last as long as 4 seconds total, 3 blinks + missed lunge, in combination with the fact that she cannot charge her power at all while having a flashlight on her, and can be lightburned while her power IS charged/charging which knocks her out of her charged blink. (Lightburn is not directionally dependent like blinding, however both lightburn and blinding stack.) This does not even really cover how devastating the forced drop in her gaze is to tracking survivors that were just struck and are now sprint bursting away.
Her power also does not deal well with tight spaces, in a lot of places in a handful of maps a nurse just straight up cannot blink into them at all and there are even more spaces where a nurse player must have pinpoint perfect accuracy to blink inside a tile. You'd be surprised how much you can mess up a nurse player by still keeping your routing around objects tight because they aren't patient enough to get the blink over the debris in the way. Furthermore breaking line of sight in any sort of way makes newer nurse players much more anxious because they are worried about losing a survivor with their poor movement speed.
This panic can be used very effectively by survivors to bait nurses into poor positioning. It feels like people don't seem to realize the exact range at which to deal with nurse. You are really looking at a short-mid range, just enough room that a nurse must use blink to get to you, but not so long that you can't bait out the 2nd blink to get the maximum time out of her power CD. These 3-4 seconds add up swiftly in combination with the time she actually spends in a chase. As everyone is aware, palettes do not normally do much against nurse, however due to the straight line nature of her power it is very easy to geometrically deduce her line of approach and thereby decide which objects can be safely used to block her coming out of lunge or alter the possible path of her blink. There is only 2 choices, either she makes it through or she doesn't. You know if she does, what exact direction the lunge is coming from and its possible curvatures (the hitbox of her lunge is slightly larger than it appears, a relic of a time before it was standardized FYI.) You can also be assured that the nurse knows where you pivoted to and is ready to follow up, using this information and awareness on a killer by killer basis you can easily decide how/where to pivot effectively to dodge.
Always remember, when given the choice, her power will always put her on the closest side of an object from where she used her power, therefore if you can force her into a position where she would blink -inside- an object it will stop her on the other side, putting you into a position where you can pivot for the 2nd or 3rd blink as necessary. The time to cause a nurse to make a mistake is in the final split second before the release of the blink, it is a very tight and crucial window in which to position properly for the juke, or follow up blink. During this time a nurse player is operating on muscle memory, they are no longer operating on sensory input as the time it takes for the information to travel from their eyes to their brain becomes too great. (Similar to a professional baseball player.)
Everyone seems to be so focused on the fact that normal palettes and such things don't work against nurse's power, completely ignoring the fact that she is one of few killers that you can simply run around in an empty field and never be hit if you understand how her power works and the pathing necessary to counter it.
All this laid out, unlike most other killers, nurse's efficiency is the most visibly seen as the skill level of the player rises. e.g. Nurse spends less time in CD as they need fewer blinks and they miss fewer lunges, ability to track survivors without using their eyes when in CD results in much less loss time in chase. This returned time drastically increases the oppressive feeling of nurse's power. (Similar to how survivors simply being -efficient- on generators feels like 'gen rushing' because of the visibly rising effective efficiency.)
With that said, I would face nurse every day over Freddy. His counterplay is to run across the map and shake a clock every few minutes to make him an M1 killer that can teleport to gens sometimes. With nurse her moment to moment chase feels so engaging and honestly very satisfying when you outplay a nurse, but at the same time it is not as bitter because you know that the nurse player is genuinely better, even if it was just that outplay this time. Freddy's skill floor is just so low that anybody can get amazing results with him, and most of the time instead of feeling outplayed he just feels annoying, or if they are actually good killers, mind numbingly oppressive. At least with nurse I can visibly appreciate a player's specific skill with nurse more apparently than other, intensely strong killers. (Looking at you spirit.)
I personally feel that the reason survivors hate nurse so much is because there are so few moderate-good nurse players to play against, and therefore they are never forced to learn how to counter her, as her counterplay is incredibly specific to nurse alone, and does not really translate skills against other, more standard killers nor do the skills of looping standard killers translate well to dealing with nurse.
In conclusion, I would propose the reduction of the forced downward camera rotation of nurse, by about 15-20 degrees.. Of all of her drawbacks, this is the one that probably harms newer killers the most as it directly interferes with even the most beginner skills such as tracking and situational awareness. I think this would allow for a smoother gradiation of nurse skill groups between "poor" and "godly" and not make the transition to the latter group as uncomfortable as sitting on a cactus.
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Sometimes I do it at high ranks because it can cause confident survivors to expose themselves during the wind down animation for the unhook.
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To be fair I think they have enough room to lower Demogorgon's ambient sounds by about 25% and there would still be plenty of counterplay, at least then his noise would be INSIDE his terror radius, leaving his obvious hit screams and things alone. I'm not sure if they are running M&A and I just don't stick around long enough to make sure, but it feels like a lot of times I can hear a Demogorgon long before their terror radius, and if the devs intended for him to have this Lullaby-esque mechanic because he can come around a corner and launch himself like a hatchet, then okay fair enough I guess but if its not intended then I think it passively hurts Demogorgon and disguises how strong his kit would be if he was functioning as intended.
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If they just did this, and also removed perk tiers at the same time so then they don't have to worry about balancing around 3 tiers of perks any more, I would be so happy. I guess understandably there needed to be perk tiers to begin with, otherwise there wouldn't have been any possible progression. But now with so many killers and survivors to farm perks on, it really gets frustrating having to spend 2 million+ bloodpoints trying to get iron will or BBQ and chili rank 3, AGAIN. (Not even mentioning the bloodpoint investment to prestige, as that is technically extra, above and beyond type gameplay.)
@Kumakx said:
You know what it would impact? More IRI addons on killers every game. More instaheals on survivors. More keys. More moris.
If we want to reduce grind, I think that the only way is to give more perks per bloodweb. Or remove perk tiers.
I don't really understand this mindset. What is your argument? That it would be possible to have more fun all the time because the addons that cause more fun and engaging gameplay are easier to get ahold of and that would be a terrible thing? The devs themselves have said they balance the game around killers having add-ons, well that means if killers are running OP add-ons then survivors don't have to feel bad about also doing OP things right back and vice versa, we all get to do crazy things and enjoy playing the game.
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@Spill said:
Went against the build again today. This was the first match we were able to cleanse all hexes. As you can see it is still unwinnable. We had 3 gens left. Thrill of the Hunt is a HUGE issue to the balance. I will continue to provide evidence. So far 100% of the matches with this build has resulted in a 4K
@Spill said:
Undying was problematic for completely different reasons as it was unfair to BOTH survivor and killer.
Any heavy RNG mechanic greatly imbalances the game like kobe, hatch escapes, pig head trap, etc
I know this build. I've put every fiber of my being into proving myself wrong. I was a rank 1 for every match I've posted here with full red lobbies.
You guys sit there and complain like I don't know how to play. I'm simply bringing you the statistics. You can't argue against facts.
So you can talk crap all you want. The devs have what they need. I'm just here to point out that the imbalance lies within Thrill of the Hunt.
Guard your own totems weakling. What do you want an AI to do the killing for you?
Okay, lets look at the only objective information you've provided this entire thread.
From the point values I can determine that the bottom 2 survivors died fairly quickly into the match. From this I can see a few likely scenarios. Either:
- The survivors killed themselves on hook, if that is the case then that's not the killer nor the build's fault.
- The killer tunneled, this would be considered poor sportsmanship, but it is still not the build's fault.
- The survivors mis-played personally either by not healing, or making mistakes in evading the killer. Which is neither the killer nor the build's fault.
- You failed to intervene to save your team, leading to their untimely death. If you make decisions, and the killer makes decisions and their decisions go favorably in their direction that means they are superior to you as a player in that moment whether by previous experience or instinct. This remains, ultimately, still not the builds fault because you lack experience in dealing with the time management necessary to deal with a secondary objective and your primary objective of escaping.
Continuing on to the top two survivors with nearly double the points values I can determine from this just one likely scenario that you two attempted, likely for 20 or so minutes, to 2v1 this poor pig that just wanted to not have her totems broken in under 10 seconds by running not one, but TWO totem protection perks, devoting 50% of her entire perk build when, if survivors matched her for just 2 totem finding perks, would only constitute 12.5% of the total survivor perks in the match. Maybe we should talk about that imbalance? Should killers get 5 or 6 perk slots to compensate for that?
Also I can't believe nobody else has pointed this out, but you have two people running No Mither and complaining that you got 4K'd? I mean really, you are basically begging to get 4K'd at that point.
Furthermore, you want to talk about perspective, but I don't remember any survivors that were complaining stopping to think that Undying was created to be a band-aid for poor totem spawns to begin with, which has yet to be fixed by the way. In addition you ultimately did not even have to engage with Ruin/Undying at all after the Ruin change, but now you are suddenly angry that a killer has the AUDACITY to commit 100% of their build to forcing you to interact with something besides a generator? You honestly sound entitled and the lack of self awareness beggars belief to the point that I can't tell if you are genuine or just a troll. Survivors really thought Ruin/Undying was sweaty? I guess everyone just underestimated how sweaty killer players are willing to be. On top of that with the new small game changes learning where totems spawn and practicing cleansing totems has never been easier or more accessible, and if Undying had been left alone everything would have worked out perfectly fine with Undying continuing to counter mass hex builds. Unfortunately now you are in a situation without old Undying to save you, and you just have to live with that because that is what you, as a group, asked for.
Not to mention, and this is the really important factor, survivors are as powerful as killers can allow them to be. The more powerful a killer is then the more powerful and impactful each individual survivor is allowed to be. So by begging to gut and ruin killers, you are basically begging to get your own perks slashed and gutted right back in order to compensate for the new vacuum of power in the opposing role. Despite being 4v1, its a symbiotic system and at the end of the day the killer still has to be physically capable of getting a 4K, thus the weaker they are, the weaker survivors must be. The killer has his job to do, and the survivors have theirs, and by allowing the killer to have fun and be powerful, so too can the survivors make crazy sick plays and create camaraderie with displays of skill, but you can't do that by just nerfing all avenues of skill expression out of the game.
The killer made the build, they beat you with it, that's the end of the story. The fact that you can come in here and say that its successful on a bunch of killers just means that it works well in this environment where survivors aren't ready to handle the addition of so much extra time, it'll change once survivors get better at managing that. This build is high risk (the chance they'll have no perks in roughly 77~ seconds accounting for HGs exposure.) for the high reward of getting a 4K and its all down to their personal ability to guard their totems in each trial. Now its up to you, as a survivor, to learn that new avenue of skill expression the killer has created.
Also, for future reference, your "statistics" are completely worthless as they are a sample size of 1, you should probably keep some perspective and realize that. There are 69,352,859,712,417 possible chess games to be played, a game with far fewer variables than Dead by Daylight, with that in mind the hypothesis you present with your "statistics" is knee jerk immature at best, and slovenly misguided at worst.
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->Survivors complain about Undying, getting it gutted and forcing killers to run an entire hex build.
->Killers make hex perks a viable secondary objective.
->Survivors buckle under the duress of a secondary objective.
->Survivors complain that a killer executes their high risk, high reward build and actually get the high reward of a 4K.
->Survivor doesn't have enough self awareness to realize they just need to get better at the game to foil a killer's plans.
Old Undying literally prevented this situation that you are complaining about by naturally countering other hex perks.
Ya'll made this bed, now you lay in it just the way you wanted it.
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@Yords said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2186527#Comment_2186527
People would just choose the map seed that is most favorable to them.
Well obviously they would in private games which is what custom lobbies are at the moment, however if it was a tournament setting the producers would hopefully choose suitable maps from the seeding.
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@DetailedDetriment said:
Dead By Daylight isn't a game ready for competitive play. It has far too many balancing issues and suffers a lot from repetition.
Don't believe me? Take a look at all of the past tournaments. They were trainwrecks. Especially the one in Asia.
I believe the point is that with map seeding you could objectively pick the most balanced versions of each map, in addition to being able to perpetuate the map between matches so that all factors remain equal but player skill.
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The problem with lucky break being 90 seconds long is that it becomes a compounded issue. Killer players weren't worried about 1 person on the whole team running lucky break/iron will. They were worried about the ENTIRE team running it, which would have been an insane 360 seconds total, which if you didn't know is 90% of the base time it takes to complete 5 generators. If they pushed lucky break through like it was, all you would see is end game builds like Blood Warden, NOED, Bitter Murmur, Remember Me, No Way Out, Deerstalker, Blackout and going for the 4 slug + hook because there would be literally no point in chasing survivors, and therefore no point in defending generators at all.
I understand that its fun to bamboozle a killer and make sick plays, but killers would ALSO like the opportunity to play the game instead of looking for 4 injured survivors in turn while the generators ping away in the background.
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Killers like the doctor are important to the overall health of the game, his kit does a lot of work for new players which allow them to have an even playing field against more seasoned players. This is called a first order optimal strategy, killers that are rewarded seemingly disproportionately high for their "low skill" allow for a foothold so that players can come in and learn without feeling totally oppressed before they move on to more complex skills and strategies as they evolve in their gameplay. Arguably doctor + his addons are the most new player friendly killer in the game as they cover a lot of weaknesses new players have when they start.
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Something to consider is that the way we play DBD now was never how it was meant to be played to begin with. Originally you were meant to hide, avoid, and slink around in the shadows. And thus all these buildings and structures were created for you to vanish around inside. However, at a certain point, gamers being gamers optimized gameplay so that now stealth is considered to be one of the worst types of ways to deal with a killer.
So honestly if new players were getting tutorials based on how the devs wanted the game to be played, and then were thrown to the wolves of the much less immersed gameplay they were lead to believe would happen, I feel like that would be a much more jarring experience more likely to turn people away.
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Killers that are simple mechanically, but have a seemingly disproportionately high reward for their success are built into the game as a FOOS, a first order optimal strategy. Which can be difficult to deal with as a newer player yourself because a FOOS is not really meant to be used against new players, rather its meant to be used by new players in order to help them have an even playing field against more experienced players. Killers like Wraith, Billy, Bubba, Freddy and Oni fall within this realm of being relatively mechanically simple for a low skill ceiling and high pay off for successful executions of skill.
Something to consider is that until very recently Wraith needed to run a particular class of addons, and while he isn't the only killer that has such a severe reliance, (looking at you Trapper and them brown bags minimum.) always being locked into 1 out of 2 choices is not healthy for the game. While it is slightly unfortunate now that he has so much freedom, as you grow more accustomed to the change and the fact he now has all these things going on without being crippled by needing one type of addon every game, it'll become easier to deal with Wraiths of every caliber.
Also, something that people might not want to hear, but in a game like this the end goal of balance would be that no killer is actually lower than B rank on a tier list. So the fact that they managed to take arguably one of the weakest killers in the game and position him in a high B - Low A ranking is pretty nice.
(In case anyone is curious, other more well known FOOS are the fully charged plasma pistol + melee combo from Halo and the "noob tube" from CoD.)
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I think its to compensate for console players always having to play on high/ultra settings where PC players can cheat a lot of the shadows by dropping the quality to low. Honestly they should just add the same quality slider to consoles at this point.
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Perhaps instead of just a flat "you won't de-pip" the game instead accounts for the person being gone which makes it easier for the remaining 3 to pip, thereby rewarding people that don't give up instead of them being rewarded for someone giving up. Also survivors that D/C should give the appropriate points, if a killer D/Cs all 4 survivors get 5k BP for escaping but killers weirdly get deviousness instead of sacrifice points, and only 650 at that when that survivor (assuming no hooks on them) is worth, at a minimum, 1900 sacrifice points.
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What is 'Mettle of Man' to begin with? The definition of mettle is courage AND fortitude. At the moment only fortitude is being represented as you get the crap beat out of you by the killer, however, since BT is being buffed to always activate we could take that old mechanic and add it to mettle of man. So now you also get stacks for unhooks inside the terror radius (safe unhook optional), for your courage. Could possibly also add pickups inside the terror radius. In order to prevent hook bombing it could also give a miniature haste effect to the unhooked so they aren't punished for someone else trying to get stacks, could thematically call it Inspiration as a buff.
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- Don't allow the Hag to set up, as soon as you identify her you have to immediately move to disrupt her establishing a 3-gen web. Unlike other killers, a Hag does not really want to deal with you directly. The first few minutes are drastically critical, which is often why Hag players run Corrupt Intervention. (For me, this perk is the hallmark of a mid-level skilled Hag, normally a high skilled Hag won't need it and a low skilled one won't have it.)
- Manage Hag's inability to teleport effectively. Most of the time a Hag player chooses to create a network of traps, which means they are often very close together. That also means when they are carrying someone to a hook you can easily destroy half or more of her traps which the Hag player either has to sacrifice or waste time replacing.
- If you know where the trap is, rotate your camera to face it. It will reduce the time the game controls your camera to look at the trap. It is also less disorientating as a player.
- Learn the trigger distance - traps are basically worthless once you know where they are, and it'll prevent her from placing new ones without destroying the oldest ones which are often the most important to maintaining a Hag's web.
- Crouch to prevent traps from going off. When unhooking/being unhooked its worth taking the time to crouch to walk past the traps, its better that she wastes the time walking back to you than teleporting instantly. (Assuming she even heads back to the hook.) Furthermore you can do actions from crouching without triggering a trap, like repairing a generator or unhooking.
- Use abnormal pathing, a Hag will normally set up traps in the /most likely/ places survivors will path to get where they need to be.
- Take advantage of the disorientation when teleporting, a Hag player's perspective matches their trap's perspective. So you know exactly where their FOV will be.
- Use a flashlight.
Reposting this from another thread.
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- Don't allow the Hag to set up, as soon as you identify her you have to immediately move to disrupt her establishing a 3-gen web. Unlike other killers, a Hag does not really want to deal with you directly. The first few minutes are drastically critical, which is often why Hag players run Corrupt Intervention. (For me, this perk is the hallmark of a mid-level skilled Hag, normally a high skilled Hag won't need it and a low skilled one won't have it.)
- Manage Hag's inability to teleport effectively. Most of the time a Hag player chooses to create a network of traps, which means they are often very close together. That also means when they are carrying someone to a hook you can easily destroy half or more of her traps which the Hag player either has to sacrifice or waste time replacing.
- If you know where the trap is, rotate your camera to face it. It will reduce the time the game controls your camera to look at the trap. It is also less disorientating as a player.
- Learn the trigger distance - traps are basically worthless once you know where they are, and it'll prevent her from placing new ones without destroying the oldest ones which are often the most important to maintaining a Hag's web.
- Crouch to prevent traps from going off. When unhooking/being unhooked its worth taking the time to crouch to walk past the traps, its better that she wastes the time walking back to you than teleporting instantly. (Assuming she even heads back to the hook.) Furthermore you can do actions from crouching without triggering a trap, like repairing a generator or unhooking.
- Use abnormal pathing, a Hag will normally set up traps in the /most likely/ places survivors will path to get where they need to be.
- Take advantage of the disorientation when teleporting, a Hag player's perspective matches their trap's perspective. So you know exactly where their FOV will be.
- Use a flashlight.
Just so you know, a Hag that excessively traps a hook is clearly telling you that they are not comfortable with their Hag/killer gameplay and have to rely on crutch playstyles like that. (Or clearly telegraphing they are using Scarred Hand for some weird meme-y reason.) So maybe don't take it so hard when you notice it, we are all out here trying to have fun/get better.
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@Firellius said:
While it would help people like you avoid accidentally tunnelling someone out of the game, I'm afraid it would be too much of a supporting tool for people that want to maliciously tunnel someone out, so I don't think it's going to happen.
People that want to maliciously tunnel will do it regardless, so in my eyes thats a non-argument. The real problem is that it would expand the amount of killers that 'prioritize' (not tunnel) survivors which would just make survivors complain more, and BHVR could say nothing because not only is camping/tunneling condoned the much less egregious 'prioritizing' of targets would easily fall within the bounds of good player conduct.
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If I'm not mistaken the whole point of undying was to be a band-aid for poor totem spawns, but then they gutted undying without buffing the totem spawns. So you might as well never use totems, or if you do just expect that its, usually, very little pay off for a huge risk of not having a perk for 99% of a game.
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It is my understanding that rank itself is only a loose guideline for who you will become matched with. In my experience, it seems more likely that the highest weighted value is how long someone had to wait. What probably happened is that this game had 4 people waiting, and the matchmaker grabbed the next available player in queue, you. The problem with more strictly defining the matchmaking requirements is that wait times exponentially grow in response.
There is also a certain amount of apathy for getting to or maintaining high ranks, so a divide is created where people maintain a high rank easily, or decide not to bother to maintain it at all, so it can be difficult to find people of the mid ranks at any time of day, around ranks 9-5 give or take. When I was getting survivor to rank 1 around rank 8 I was either placed with red ranks or yellow ranks with no other mid ranks ever until I was around rank 4-3 and then suddenly I was one of the 3 red ranks with a random mid rank in my game.
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@Spill said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2104026#Comment_2104026
You missed it man. Completely off on your comment. THEY BRING FULL HEX LOADOUTS WITH A HEX THAT ALERTS WHEN AND WHERE YOU ARE CLEANSING.
So they slaughter you anytime you touch their hex. And if you do manage to cleanse, it triggers Haunted. But there's still ruin so you have to keep going. And if you try to do gens Devour activates. Then its back to cleansing. All during this time the Killer is getting notifications where you are cleansing.
I've been documenting my matches with these perks in another post. The killer KNOWS we HAVE to cleanse to get to ruin. SO they guard the TOTEMS with THRILL OF THE HUNT and a BACKUP of HAUNTED GROUNDS and DEVOUR. Do you not see how broken that is???? Are you that blind????
I WENT AGAINST THIS LOADOUT ON A HAG THAT ALSO TRAPPED THE TOTEMS! So she had traps AND THRILL.
If a killer is defending their hex that means they aren't driving people off generators to get Ruin value. You don't have to cleanse Ruin at all, you can very easily just power through Ruin. Haunted only triggers if 1 of its 2 totems are cleansed, so if you cleanse thrill/ruin/devour it does nothing. Hexes are nearly vestigial because of how little power they have.
I mean, I think thats just sort of how Hag plays, that sounds more like you need experience playing against Hag.
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I think the most important utility of Small Game is how easily it can be attained, being a universal perk its already unlocked when you start and as far as early perks go is really not that bad of an alternative until Detective's Hunch is in the shrine or someone unlocks Tapp. (Considering he also has tenacity, not a bad idea.)
Hopefully it also becomes a tool for people to more organically learn totem spawns through normal gameplay, allowing devs to buff hexes into being a more normalized secondary objective. With that said you'd basically need deja vu, small game, and plunderer's instinct to replace all the information that detective's hunch gives you.
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@Firellius said:
Hexes like Ruin and Devour Hope can shatter games. In general play, if the killer gets a hook in before Ruin is found, it's going to require some miracle play by the survivors to pull off a win. Undying is a huge threat right now in that regard, and literally tripling its power is an extremely excessive buff as a supposed counterweight to Small Game's rework. Small Game also already got nerfed on the side, anyway, since it lost the ability to counter Freddy, Trapper, and most importantly: Hag. All that makes Small Game a worse pick, not a better one.
While the change can be viewed as a nerf I mostly just see it as them shifting Small Game's purpose to the side slightly to open room for a new perk that deals with traps. In changing how the hex meta works it would passively buff Small Game, being a very generic and generally easy perk to get ahold of and use. We also should consider the amount of hex perks that were not very good with full powered Undying, let alone the cliff they have fallen off of with its nerf. While Ruin and Devour Hope are a concern, they are not the only hex perks that exist.
@thefallenloser said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2103392#Comment_2103392
Cleansing both at once is a rare scenario that only happens in a super coordinated SWF that are both not being pressured and working totems at the exact same time.
Even with a good team, it does take quite a while to eliminate every single totem spawn, especially if they aren't SWF. I don't think Hexes need to respawn multiple times. They've been good enough before, Undying gave it more. Killers can't have their cake and eat it when it comes to totems. A already strong risk-reward perk that was well enough before Undying came around should not be able to respawn 5 times, regardless of whether it takes up a perk slot. Replacing a Hex just once is strong enough for an additional perk slot. It's basically having two of the same Hex on at once. 4 times is overkill.
As for Thrill, I say it's overloaded here. Yeah, the nerfed Undying secondary effect is fairly underwhelming, but 2 totems and always knowing when a survivor is on could make totems nigh-uncleansable, and it's the same reason they tuned down the previous effect. I'd say just replace the effect with Retribution's dull totem effect, but it should work on all Hexes as well, and Retribution would have Undying's aura reading active on all totems, including Hexes as well.
(But also, I wouldn't mind if killers had access to an additional dull totem to utilize... but would be odd to balance.)
Well its not exactly a common occurrence I would not say its as rare as you seem to think. By sheer happenstance of fate totems can be cleansed back to back fairly often. Correct me if I am wrong, but Undying was originally meant to band-aid the fact that totem spawns are (and continue to be) incredibly poor. An experiment that unfortunately went out of control, visibly, however it was gutted without fixing the original underlying problem. Now if its a matter of the totem spawn algorithm being too problematic to hash out at the moment, it may be a necessary evil to shift more power back into Undying for the time being, similar to the stopgap gutting of it. Furthermore its not only about the perk investment in the loadout, which is a concern as killers naturally have 1/4th the amount of perk slots, but it is also a reward for the investment of time in the game. You know what a killer is not doing if they are protecting totems? I'm sure its not hard to guess. Now if the killer gets something out of it, that is the reward for their risk, and a mistake of the survivor team, not something to hold against the killer who is choosing to use the perk slots, and basically abandon defense of the generators.
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@Spill said:
Hexes should NEVER protect Hexes. The killer knows its location. It is up to the killer to guard his game changing perks.
I am still calling for Thrill of the Hunt to be nerfed. It should not notify the killer when AND where someone is cleansing a hex. It should just audio que that someone is cleansing somewhere. Hence the name Thrill of the HUNT. I have suggested this because of killer's bringing FULL HEX LOADOUTS that are unwinnable.
Ruin, Haunted, Devour, and Thrill which makes it impossible to cleanse bc
1) our location is revealed with Thrill
2) breaking is slowed with Thrill
3) Haunted exposes us in out journey to cleanse
4) before we get to Ruin... Devour kicks in.
5) Ruin
I never want to hear how a killer needs a Hex to protect their totem. YOU BASTARDS KNOW WHERE IT IS
This doesn't make any sense at all. Ruin naturally counters devour hope and thrill by causing survivors to look for totems. The build you describe uses all 5 totem spawns, which means assuming all 4 survivors rotate to find a hex totem, they'll find one immediately. Even assuming the best case scenario where 2 people are cleansing both haunted grounds totems and you are left with ruin or devour hope or thrill, a killer simply cannot be at all places at once even when they are notified by thrill, its physically impossible. They'll immediately be down at least 3 perks, with possible haunted grounds value for that trade.
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@7AJFUN said:
@BenihimeWrath that's bad idea. Undying meta was boring and unhealthy for game. As a killer you should not fully rely on hex perks. Taking them is a risk which you should consider before setting up your build. I don't know if you are playing survivor aswell, but imagine looking for 5 totems on the maps like Midwich, Meatplant etc. where even good survivors have a problem to cleanse current undying & other hex perk.
Advice: Use Pop
I believe there is a difference between relying on hex perks and making them reliable. I also believe it is a fair compromise if killers must use a perk slot to protect their hexes its fair that survivors must use one perk slot to find them.
Any thoughts on the thrill of the hunt changes as well?
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@thefallenloser said:
Undying doesn't need to be reverted. Good survivors won't find much use outta Small Game and does basically nothing once all totems are gone. Can't see Small Game in the meta over other perks and SG will only really be useful for Inner Strength or NOED.
I don't really think we are talking about good survivors in the first place to be honest. It is my understanding that Undying was nerfed to deal with the most outrageous scenario of having 1 Hex totem be able to respawn 4 times. A good survivor team would just cleanse both simultaneously, or would already know all the totem spawn locations and thus fairly easily deal with finding all 4 totems necessary to render Undying worthless. Or just power through gens and not even worry about ruin/undying also rendering the perks worthless.
I believe the Small Game changes are meant to facilitate a way for new players to learn hex totem spawns, thus making the knowledge more freely available and indirectly nerfing hex totems. Also any thoughts to the thrill of the hunt changes? I was hoping it would provide an alternative to undying as well.
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-Appearance
It is my understanding that the level of horrific damage/transformation that besets a killer to turn them into a monstrosity is from resisting the Entity. To me this means that The Trickster is one of the fewer killers to not only not resist the Entity, but to be completely willing to do its bidding. This is very visible in how "normal" he looks. With that said I'm not sure how you can be disappointed in what basically amounts to be a neon bat machete with a knuckle duster handle. I presume the colorful design is mostly to cash in on the Kpop/cyberpunk type aesthetic or make the killer more visible so survivors can react better to his effectively infinite knife throwing range. In the end though I think his horror elements are not readily apparent, you need to know lore about the game itself to make him creepier. With that said, whoever did the dudes sound direction is a god because all those laughs and spoken words that he emotes while going around killing really give me a joker type vibe, only reinforced with his performer backstory.
-Power
Personally I think his power is a little on the weak side with how quickly lacerations decay, even while in chase. So I feel like if they removed that completely, or at least remove it while being actively chased he would be a lot better. With 60 base knives you could almost view him as a training killer which people use to find the center of their screen without using a cross hair in order to better play huntress or (more accurately because of the size of the projectiles) deathslinger. His showstopper mode also seems to go to waste quite often. I wish it was more like Oni's bloodfury in that regard but considering infinite knives that might be more of a snow avalanche than a snowball if that were the case. I also don't think his power has that much depth, I wish his knives ricocheted once baseline and the add on added maybe 1-2 more bounces. This would 1) make it easier to land knives reducing his skill floor, and 2) because of the bouncing it also wildly increases the skill ceiling for more expression which I think killer mains would appreciate without feeling entirely oppressive to survivors.
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Its not going to be changed and its not even really about tunneling specifically. Giving a killer the information of which hook states the survivors are on more easily allows them to effectively prioritize survivors for killing. This is not really tunneling per se, however it could be viewed as 'condoned tunneling' if the devs do increase the information about individual hooks. In essence, it would punish survivors that had poor starts to a match by increasing the odds they will be targeted at the 2-3 generator mark to relieve pressure on generators. Therefore, allowing it to be a built in part of a killer's general skill ceiling to keep track of which survivors are on death hook might be the most effective compromise.
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Let us consider the following. What is nurse's power when you strip it down to the nuts and bolts? It is a dash in a straight line, not dissimilar to billy, oni, or blight. The most obvious difference is that her dash ignores terrain. (Theres a blight joke in there I'm sure.) This, by its nature, makes nurse very good at a few things.
- High, but power dependent mobility.
- Punishing mistakes. (Including routing/looping nurse as if she is a normal killer.)
- Punishing poor situational awareness. (Not paying attention to the directionality of nurse's screams.)
With that said that means the more skilled a nurse player becomes the lower the bar is for the mistake necessary that it opens up survivors for punishment. Now, I would say it does not take particularly long to get to this point as a nurse player, which is moreso based on the fact that average solo queue survivors make many mistakes due to lack of information. This, however, does not translate well to a good game close out, which is how nurse can be a very strong killer, but have a very poor kill average.
Now, what are the drawbacks to this strong power? A stun that can last as long as 4 seconds total, 3 blinks + missed lunge, in combination with the fact that she cannot charge her power at all while having a flashlight on her, and can be lightburned while her power IS charged/charging which knocks her out of her charged blink. (Lightburn is not directionally dependent like blinding, however both lightburn and blinding stack.) This does not even really cover how devastating the forced drop in her gaze is to tracking survivors that were just struck and are now sprint bursting away.
Her power also does not deal well with tight spaces, in a lot of places in a handful of maps a nurse just straight up cannot blink into them at all and there are even more spaces where a nurse player must have pinpoint perfect accuracy to blink inside a tile. You'd be surprised how much you can mess up a nurse player by still keeping your routing around objects tight because they aren't patient enough to get the blink over the debris in the way. Furthermore breaking line of sight in any sort of way makes newer nurse players much more anxious because they are worried about losing a survivor with their poor movement speed.
This panic can be used very effectively by survivors to bait nurses into poor positioning. It feels like people don't seem to realize the exact range at which to deal with nurse. You are really looking at a short-mid range, just enough room that a nurse must use blink to get to you, but not so long that you can't bait out the 2nd blink to get the maximum time out of her power CD. These 3-4 seconds add up swiftly in combination with the time she actually spends in a chase. As everyone is aware, palettes do not normally do much against nurse, however due to the straight line nature of her power it is very easy to geometrically deduce her line of approach and thereby decide which objects can be safely used to block her coming out of lunge or alter the possible path of her blink. There is only 2 choices, either she makes it through or she doesn't. You know if she does, what exact direction the lunge is coming from and its possible curvatures (the hitbox of her lunge is slightly larger than it appears, a relic of a time before it was standardized FYI.) You can also be assured that the nurse knows where you pivoted to and is ready to follow up, using this information and awareness on a killer by killer basis you can easily decide how/where to pivot effectively to dodge.
Always remember, when given the choice, her power will always put her on the closest side of an object from where she used her power, therefore if you can force her into a position where she would blink -inside- an object it will stop her on the other side, putting you into a position where you can pivot for the 2nd or 3rd blink as necessary. The time to cause a nurse to make a mistake is in the final split second before the release of the blink, it is a very tight and crucial window in which to position properly for the juke, or follow up blink. During this time a nurse player is operating on muscle memory, they are no longer operating on sensory input as the time it takes for the information to travel from their eyes to their brain becomes too great. (Similar to a professional baseball player.)
Everyone seems to be so focused on the fact that normal palettes and such things don't work against nurse's power, completely ignoring the fact that she is one of few killers that you can simply run around in an empty field and never be hit if you understand how her power works and the pathing necessary to counter it.
All this laid out, unlike most other killers, nurse's efficiency is the most visibly seen as the skill level of the player rises. e.g. Nurse spends less time in CD as they need fewer blinks and they miss fewer lunges, ability to track survivors without using their eyes when in CD results in much less loss time in chase. This returned time drastically increases the oppressive feeling of nurse's power. (Similar to how survivors simply being -efficient- on generators feels like 'gen rushing' because of the visibly rising effective efficiency.)
With that said, I would face nurse every day over Freddy. His counterplay is to run across the map and shake a clock every few minutes to make him an M1 killer that can teleport to gens sometimes. With nurse her moment to moment chase feels so engaging and honestly very satisfying when you outplay a nurse, but at the same time it is not as bitter because you know that the nurse player is genuinely better, even if it was just that outplay this time. Freddy's skill floor is just so low that anybody can get amazing results with him, and most of the time instead of feeling outplayed he just feels annoying, or if they are actually good killers, mind numbingly oppressive. At least with nurse I can visibly appreciate a player's specific skill with nurse more apparently than other, intensely strong killers. (Looking at you spirit.)
I personally feel that the reason survivors hate nurse so much is because there are so few moderate-good nurse players to play against, and therefore they are never forced to learn how to counter her, as her counterplay is incredibly specific to nurse alone, and does not really translate skills against other, more standard killers nor do the skills of looping standard killers translate well to dealing with nurse.
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If you actually use detective's hunch you'll find that the location is more suggested due to the scaling of an object's aura over a distance. Now this really isn't a huge deal with larger objectives such as generators or chests, but it can be frustrating determining the exact location of a hex perk that you need to find. While it is understandable balancing out how powerful the perk can be with generators being finished, I feel its too ineffective in its primary job (expected META usage) in finding totems. Anecdotally, I've had vastly more luck finding totems by accident than I ever really have intentionally through using this perk. In addition, with its activation requirement, it technically makes the perk less effective against one of the most common hex perks, Ruin.
In addition I suggested this change to help reduce generator pressure at the beginning of the match, and indirectly nerfing Ruin twice. 1.) by allowing the activation at the beginning of the match, making it more vulnerable, and 2.) reducing the impact of needing to finish generators has on the perk. While the buff is not insubstantial at 10%, 5 seconds in practice is really only enough time to note the general location of nearby objects before you start working on a generator without running headlong towards the killer to get the most use out of the suggested buff.
(Obviously I'm making this suggestion either based on how current Undying works, or how Undying would work in my suggestion, not the PTB version.)
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I'd rather not let this die, it took a long time to write. I would really enjoy getting some constructive criticism on this plan. Cheers.