Archol123
Archol123
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546981#Comment_3546981
I still think the problem was the unlimited uses, not speed.
The entire game revolves around survivor resources being limited and finite, from pallets and chests to medkits. And the only way to 'infinitely' do anything requires another survivor to assist.
I'm generally opposed to adding any perk as 'base kit' to the game. I think my one exception to that right now is that shadowborn should be an accessibility slider option.
it is not really unlimited, since your time on the floor is limited before you bleed out, so you can only use it that often...
I think it is a bad argument to say perks as base kit. You don't get a perk, you get a base mechanic. What BHVR did for a long time was just add perks for problems that should have been in the base kit all along, because first of all not every player has access to all perks and then again it really limits perk variety if you are basically required to use a certain perk otherwise you're basically throwing. Which was a big issue before they introduced endurance after unhook. The problem there was that you could not know if someone has borrowed time and if you do they might not be able to get the survivor in time. And then you basically farmed someone off of hook because you did not really have a choice, as they would go 2nd stage anyway otherwise.
This mechanic similar to the facecamping one right now focus on quite the same issue, removing the ability of a player to play the game. And since stuff similar to that already kind of worked to prevent the issue in some form I think it is fine to just use that instead of figure out something completely new or more complex, those changes can come earlier and if they don't work out as planned they can still figure out something new.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
The PTB testing infinite unbreakable was not because of 'slugging isn't fun'. That PTB was testing the finisher Mori system, where slugging survivors was literally a game winning strategy.
It doesn't take much consideration to think that if you added finisher Mori from that PTB *without* some way for survivors to deal with slugging, that the core game would fundamentally change and hooks would become completely useless. Every single killer would just slug survivors for the win instead. It would be much faster than tunneling, the current 'efficient' strategy.
And even with infinite unbreakable in that test, there were still games where the killer was able to slug all 4 survivors in under 3 minutes to win the game with 0 hooks.
Infinite unbreakable was a bad idea. And the finisher Mori from that PTB was an even worse idea. Neither one should see the light of day ever again.
Perhaps if you get slugged for over a minute or something like that? When it is somewhat obvious you won't get picked up again? But not speed increase as the perk added back then.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546391#Comment_3546391
I know that, I dont really ever camp outside endgame anyways. I'm just done with BHVR removing mechanics and strategies by force instead of fixing actual game design problems.
Hot take, what if the ability to face camp is the actual design issue? Not that hard to imagine right...
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@Felgoose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545299#Comment_3545299
It's a consolation prize. If a killer gets 3 kills, they won. The hatch is just a bonus to keep the last survivor from hiding forever. I would like to see challenges adjusted so that no one NEEDS to get a 4k.
For this situation as well as 3 gen clusters I'd like to see an early collapse timer. We see it as part of the normal interface. When only 3 gens are left, we get the progress of a slow collapse. If there is only 1 survivor left standing regardless of gen progress, the slow collapse progresses and a hatch appears. Speed of this collapse would increase with hooks and generator completions. If everyone is slugged, last survivor has to choose between hatch or rescue attempt. If killer closes hatch, it spawns somewhere else and collapse gets a chunk of progress. End game collapse triggered by exit gate opening or final hatch closing on last survivor starts from where this slow collapse left off.
It would be an extreme change but would eliminate stale gameplay moments and add pressure to both killer and survivors to keep the game progressing.
If hatch just respawns after it gets closed isn't that just way too survivor sided than?
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546426#Comment_3546426
Yeah I dropped her when they released the nerf im not going to play a killer whos entire existence is just to get punked around by survivors with half a brain.
Isn't the whole thing about Hag same as Trapper that your traps are not supposed to be visible so you can catch survivors off guard? That still works the same way, Hag was already countered before by one person that does nothing but follow the hag destroying all her traps, I don't think that has been changed in any way, crouching and whiping it away might be the safer but also far slower version that can get easily punished if you are close by, because when they are in the radius they will probably trigger it while running away from you or loose a lot of distance if they try to crouch out of it.
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@kisfenkin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546223#Comment_3546223
Why would they wait it out? Unless they are SWF they have absolutely no obligation to sit on the hook and max their boldness only to get killed anyway.
Out of spite for the killer and to make him get max a 1 k maybe? Also it increases their chance of survival as well.
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@kisfenkin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546069#Comment_3546069
It is very clearly beneficial to camp and tunnel. There might be a laundry list of causes, but tunneling/killing the hooked survivor is the goal so I hope that when you release this to live servers you pay attention to how easily it will be abused.
In the case of a camping killer, speeding up the unhook with this change also speeds up the tunneling. Speeding up the survivor loss.
Please, don't think that the PTB is going to give you valid data on this, the people testing this on the PTB are going to use this the way you intended it, not exploiting the flaw but waiting out all timers instead. Solo queue will not use this the way you intended. It will be an enormous buff to tunneling there.
You don't need to immediatly unhook though? You can get the free unhook and then only do it 1 second before entering stage 2? Then get chased for another 20-30 seconds minimum, get carried to hook again, 15 seconds and then have another stage, and in the meantime noone else needs to get off of a gen to come get you. This change will make facecamping much weaker, the impact on proxy camping however... well...
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546182#Comment_3546182
No as a Hag main I knew very well the impact they had but making it so everybody can just wipe away a trap quicker than you can set them wasn't the way to go. "You could delete 20+ with a flashlight!" You can delete an infinite amount now so?
You cannot do it mid chase and it was way faster?? Even now most of the time it is probably the better choice to just trigger them with running through since it is more time efficient. Also it is not quicker than setting... Setting time is 2 seconds without addons and whiping time is 3.5 seconds...
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
Its part of a new system I think where they just dumb everything down. New SM is much more dumbed down version of old one if you play her as chase merchant, new Sadako is a much more dumbed down version of old Sadako, Hag had to be nerfed because new players just couldn't figure out to crouch or use flashlights on her traps, they clearly don't want anything to be too 'hard' on players so they're focusing on making everything so simple a 5 year old can play idk why
Flashlights were really good against Hag, I would not call it a nerf. You could delete 20+ traps with a flashlight, even mid chase, you underestimate how much impact they had.
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Not a good idea to basically give people a free escape if paired with a key and just lets them do nothing all game but hiding (in lockers), not a fan.
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A terrible plan, you might just get 2 minute matches because the killer will just 4 man slug because there is nothing else to do, also it might raise the numbers of knockout and infectious fright and such, not a good plan.
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@Kius said:
At this point who cares.. they destroyed gen defense perks but leaving 2 and 1 of them gives decent value when the gen is almost completed.. and the other has 4 uses..
Just focus one survivor quick if you want to win if the survivors are decent/good..
The one that has 4 uses removes up to 100% of gen progress, the one before had 15 % each use, and when you think about it with how weirdly spread scorge hooks are it might be stronger currently for several reasons.
- 15% is about 13-14 seconds which is not at lot considering the time it might take you to reach a scorge hook, so often times it would not even be worth it to go for the scorge.
- You will not always get a scorge hook because they might be out of reach, so assuming you catch one for like 60-70% of hooks only with 7 and above hooks on scorge hooks the old version was stronger and that really didnt happen often as it was quite inconsistend to run. Now you only need to get 4 in total.
Between 7 and 12 hooks is basically where it was better, if you ever go for 12 hooks then probably hook 11 and 12 dont do much anyway because then there is one survivor left so who cares about it. And you go for like 8-9 hooks in total like most people do then it makes barely a difference at all and might be even worse because you spend so much time running to those scorges you could just have spend getting to chases faster.
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There is like 40 maps in the game and more then half of them are broken or unfun in some way, if survivors and killer all could veto maps they really dont want to play you would still have a whole lot of different maps, you could even make it so on survivor side that it is visible to others so you dont veto the same map more than once. If there are maps that no killer/survivor wants to play on why force people to play on the map?
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Just found an old forum post where mandy stated that it gets turned off when there were map changes in an update, for a week apparently.
@[Deleted User] said:
I thought maps were not supposed to be repeated? Just had three killer games in a row where I got Haddonfield. No offering were used.
So it might be a mixture of both? The system not working all the time + if it works properly you only don't get the exact same map but might still get the realm?
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@Alen_Starkly said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545990#Comment_3545990
Yes they are actually. BHVR has implemented "map repeat prevention", but I still get 2 badhams in a row, for example, just different versions. And that's without map offerings. Which means, the map repeat prevention only makes sure I don't get Badham V and Badham V back to back, but I can still (and I do) get Badham V then Badham III. It's happened many times now.
Dude, people still get the exact same map, for example torment creek back to back, map repeat prevention just does not work all the time I guess ^^
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@grandpa_general said:
I couldn't care less about the cheaters, bugs, loading times, broken matchmaking, etc etc what kills my mood and fun are the maps in this game. Too many badham maps. 2 RPD maps. Too many Autohaven wreckers maps. Too many coldwind farm maps and now they come with with more macmillian estate maps.
There is little to no variety. There is BARELY any indoors maps the one they removed was hawkin's laboratoy.
This games getting real boring.
I'd rather have less maps and for them to great to play on, yes I know we don't have that either, but at least McMillan, Coldwind and Autoheaven are mostly on the better half, some of them tend to be a bit more killer or survivor sided than average but none of them are like old Cowshed or Borgo or something like that. Therefore if the new variants are good and the already existing ones don't get changed this will be nice, well otherwise it would be terrible if have a 50% chance to get a bad map even when we already have a good realm.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545064#Comment_3545064
I've answered these points so you can either reread everything I've already written or just agree to disagree on what constitutes bad behaviour.
I personally think bad behaviour in real life tops bad behaviour in game. Neither are good but one is worse than the other.
Ask yourself what kind of person am I that I equate, or even confuse, one with the other?
From a legal or moral standpoint the Internet is not different than the real world, there is not much of a difference if you insult someone here or there, there is still people on both sides, annoy them and there is going to be a similar response, you will get called out for or called names, that's just what it is, and if you induced this anger then it is kind of fair, isn't it?
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545126#Comment_3545126
Because of all the luck and RNG involved, it's still way more luck than skill overall. More so for survivor than killer, I think. If there are no more pallets on the map cause Meg pre-threw them all at 5 gens, then no amount of skill is going to save you. If the killer is a tunneler, no amount of skill is going to save you. If the other survivors are standing behind you waving you and another survivor to get off the generator blocking you from seeing the ghost face standing just outside range, no skill is going to save you when that Ghost Face pops exposed on all 3 of you. You might be the most skilled gamer ever, but there are 3 other survivors that probably aren't.
After all, how many content creators have done 1000 Escape Streaks?
No offense dude, but you just described a skill issue with the teammates xD As for tunneling, you can tunnel all you want, if the survivor is good enough he will loop you all game long.
I mean there was 200+ escape streak done by hens, only lost against a comp Nurse... Such streaks basically only ever end against comp players.
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@BubbaDredge said:
Unlocked the Artist last night, not that interested in her, I'm not a projectile killer, I like chasing people and hitting them with stuff. But I had the shards and Skull Merchant was my only other choice.
First time playing, didn't even try her in a custom, just jumped right in. I'm mostly figuring out her power, and it's kinda fun. I'm not a quick learner, so I'm mostly an M1 that keeps shooting birds toward places you were a long time ago.
First two survivors give up once I'd hooked them. "Just hook me again, I'm not going to keep playing against such a hopelessly powerful killer." They were done and wanted me to hook them again, where they immediately killed themselves. Ended up with a 3k in around six minutes.
One of the least picked killers being played by someone who has no idea how to use her power. Why? Are they just tired of this killer no one plays? Did they not like the map they took us to?
Why do you people keep readying up if you don't want to play?
If you act like this on a playground, I'd call you a baby and not let you play until you straightened up. You should have been picked on when you acted spoiled, that's what other kids are supposed to do. Teach you how to fit into society, if your parents didn't.
If you don't have the inner strength to commit to a ten-minute game, you should be doing some self-reflection and improvement, because that's not the behavior of a normal person. The Survivor role should attract people that are tough, and this has never been a game for people that don't like challenges. So why are so many of you so eager to take no points and go home?
I understand when it's a long game, when survivors are trying to win in a way that takes too long, I'll just let them win quick because I get bored. Hide and seek is fun for a little while, after that, do the gens or I'm going to tunnel you out because I like high-energy games.
That's not a factor in the quitters I'm talking about. No one has ever quit against me because I was drawing the game out, because that's the opposite of me. If I'm hitting you too hard, you don't have to quit, you'll be out soon. If you don't like any other aspect of how I play, run, do the gens, escape.
I know, I'm mostly just ranting, but it was just bewildering. I didn't think anyone cared about the Artist one way or another.
I mean I can understand it with some killers that drag matches or 3 Gen, but at least someone like Artist will finish it fast. I would rather have a 3 minute game against a god nurse than 30 min of Hag holding a 3 Gen.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540266#Comment_3540266
While I agree, this game isn't and has never been really about skill.
Why not? I think it is about skill in chase or hiding, while I would say the hiding playstyle is more luck based. Of course with map rng and so on it is largely impacted by how good your map generation has been... Otzdarva once did a video about the worst map rng and I think it was 5 pallets on groaning storehouse.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543371#Comment_3543371
The forum is where people come to complain it's a biased sample.
BHVR will change it eventually till then, play it out and stop whining and attacking other players out of spite.
Calling people can out can also be called having a temper tantrum over a game, stop trying to rationalize being nasty to others over a game.
It is not really that biased, think about different topics that were on the forum before, Nurse changes, Deaths linger changes, they were rather one sided, but they still had arguments on both sides, it is quite the generalization to assume only people who hate a certain thing are on the forum when you obviously also have people defending it.
So you are telling me it is fine to get hold hostage for an hour or basically die on purpose just to get out but it is not to tell them that is a really unfun experience to go against? By playing in that way you are causing this, why should someone be spared of getting called out for it? I'm not advocating slurs or something but I don't think there is any problem with calling out unwanted behavior.
Bleed all four people out on the floor for 4 minutes or hold a game hostage for an hour is apparently fine, but don't you dare calling that out because that's toxic, that's just ridiculous.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3544727#Comment_3544727
he still loses at full potential.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3544600#Comment_3544600
deathslinger could pressure multiple survivors if deathslinger won every single 1vs1 chase extremely fast in relationship to generator speed but that was extremely hard to do because even 2-3 shots missed or sloppy play could make him lose very quickly. that is butterfly effect of dbd. you had way greater odds as survivor to outplay his 1vs1 even little bit then he had to succeed perfect game. As a result, he was balanced.
So do most killers, but I would still say he is better than most of them....
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@SimpleTora said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543372#Comment_3543372
He def can't outplay in most tiles now that MFT exist he's FAR worse even without MFT his "outplay" potential in most tiles pre and post nerf was no different than Huntress which is considered a fair killer.
Yes, he can shoot through tiny cracks with pinpoint accuracy that could just as easily be missed by being a pixel off. Stop using rare occurrences as an example, even Slinger 1 tricks aren't going to hit through tiny cracks (especially not with quickscope) often same goes for 18m shots, it was also something that required a LOT of practice. Skill should be rewarded not punished.
Anytime anybody brings up comp i'm almost inclined to ignore them. Comp is the less than 1% of the playerbase that spends more time playing DBD in a day than they do worrying about personal hygiene in a year who play with a specific set of rules and limitations.
Old slinger was strong in 1v1 i'll give you that but he had the massive downside of being horrible in the 1v4. He couldn't pressure gens. He couldn't pressure multiple survivors. He couldn't traverse the map quickly. All his nerfs did was make him worse at the 1v1 without letting him do anything else better.
Does not matter that comp is tiny, I would say they bring out his full potential though, also his windup is still way faster than that of huntress which makes more viable on certain tiles.
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543435#Comment_3543435
Why are the two mutually exclusive? Also tbh visuals do matter a lot like I literally HATE Borgo and Dead Dawg because they're so ugly and unimmersive to play on that I just cant have fun or enjoy the experience on either
I did not say they were, I just stated what is more important, also borgos looks affect the gameplay in the sense of making scratchmarks harder to see and so on, so I would not count this only in the visual part but also the how it feels to play... And Borho sucks on both levels,too many safe tiles, that are easy to chain and have bigger collision than it looks like and hard tracking because of the color of the map... It is just all around a broken map.
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@DjEnderFox107 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543377#Comment_3543377
Well yeah that’s why I would love a rework on him, I even made a post about making his add-ons stronger atleast to make him playable. What I’m mainly saying is to add some skill and tech to legion. For me vaulting isn’t something to make him strong especially when killers such as blight, oni, hillbilly, leatherface, demongorgon, nemesis, and singularity can easily remove them.
I would say he is already playable, it is just rough against good players, but like I already said, that's kind of fair. Most weaker killers are rough against good players, so that's not really special.
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@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543785#Comment_3543785
Lol tbh, you using Billy as an example in a reply to me funny. I hate billy and wouldn't care if one day they just decide to delete that trash killer. Billy is the only killer in the whole game I will never play bc I think he sucks and I hate how hard his power is. Why play Billy when I have bubba who is easier to use and imo much better? Just like xeno why should I spend hours losing match after match and having the worst time possible playing the game when I just play nemmy who I find easier and get better results on?
Ok, so what? Does this change anything about the point I made about what skill floor means and that is has nothing to do with performance or how well you do with him?
Billy is a great killer as he power fun gameplay on both sides, I also agree that he is terribly weak these days after his rework, and he got nerfed into the ground. But I would say playing against Billy is way more fun than going against bubba. And also yes he is very hard to play, probably the hardest killer in the game.
The question is do you play a killer because you want good results or because you like the gameplay? If you only care about the first ok go play Nurse and Spirit only. If not there are a lot more fun killers in the game, that might not be that strong but offer fun gameplay so your choice.
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@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543751#Comment_3543751
I have played Xeno like that and almost every time I have lost. I think you can't just use Xeno as a m1 killer and win. Those "free hits" at windows and pallets aren't always super easy. As Coffeecrashing said in another Thread:
"Many windows, pallets, and other animation locks aren't free hits, because many of those scenarios involves a sharp turn. Xeno's M2 camera lock (for turning on the X-axis) is so bad that it can't handle sharp turns, and the M2 tries so hard to collide with the environment, that many of the sharp angles won't be reliable." They worded this better than I could so I just quote them here.
Either way, I dont believe you can just use xeno as a m1 killer in most matches, maybe against baby survivors you can but alot of killer mains are not going to be going against baby survivors all the time. As I said I played her like the way you said and lost almost every single time. In fact, I won more matches playing blight like that than xeno. As for what I see as a good skill floor I say Legion or even nemmy. Legion power is simple to use and anyone can perform well out of the gate with legion. With Nemmy I think his whip is so much easier to learn than xeno tail.
Having a low skill floor does not have anything to do with how viable it is, but how accessable it is... You won't get far with m1 only Billy if you only use the chainsaw for map traversal, but there are parts of his kit that are usable without training and such, and this is what skillfloor means...
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@BlueRose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543479#Comment_3543479
The last part hits spot-on for me. Xeno imo is like Singularity all over again. A good killer with too high of a skillfloor. I never like killers with super high-skill floors(reason why I stay way from nurse and blight) and play and learn killers that are slightly easier to learn like Legion. That said even then at least Nurse and Blight get better results if you master them than either of the last two killers. Why put in 100s of hours in a killer to be on the same level as say a plague or Oni? It really upset me bc I really really wanted to main xeno but since day one of release it has been a complete uphill battle with so much losing(btw mmr sucks bc it felt like I have been paired with survivors of my skill set yet with this killer) with little to no results of getting better.
I'm not even that upset about the nerf if they made xeno tail a little more consistent or made its hitbox slightly larger. Plus on top of that as others have said her tail hitbox does feel bugged since I also felt I missed hits that should been hits the last few days. Even had a bill who just walked right through my tail attack and did not even get s stretch from it. For now, if I want to play a killer with a range attack I just play nemmy, his whip is more consistent, can be dragged left or right, and can even break pallets.
What are you guys talking about? Xeno has a rather low skill floor? Use tunnels for mobility, play m1 and only use m2 when survivors are animation locked? That's the basics you can do, unlike Nurse you are not required to use the m2 attack? Same with Billy and Blight? You can use the ability for map traversal and just play m1? What do you even consider to be the skill floor if this is not the floor?
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543449#Comment_3543449
No one considered him A-tier in the PTB.
Otzdarva, Scott Jund and I think Hens did as well, they all put him in low A or High B tier, in the sense of they were not sure at that point...
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543411#Comment_3543411
I prefer a pretty map over gameplay if it’s not visually fun to look at it’s not gonna be fun in general. We should want both pretty to look at and balanced
Sure both would be nice, but gameplay is more important... After being on the map for a hundred times nobody cares about how it looks but will complain that it is terribly balanced...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543184#Comment_3543184
by anticipating shots? I see line of sight as means to mitigate risk. your perception of line of sight blockers is counter the killer power entirely. "hit you eventually part" will be too slow for 5 generators of the game.
So flicking is not a thing? How would you anticipate a shot when he is pulling his weapon up every few seconds to make you juke or shoot you if you don't? It's just loose loose... Nothing more than a guessing game...
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@DjEnderFox107 said:
I just darn diddly want to see my funny stabby boy atleast be A or atleast a b tier killer.
If you were to really rework this pain of the century you gonna wanna remove his deep wound
No one wants to mend, just get rid of it entirely.
This rework would focus on one survivor instead of multiple like he does currently.
obviously all of some add-one would need to reworked
On a more serious note, give legion a meter which requires a number of stabs while in frenzy to injure a survivor, let’s say 3 stabs are required for this rework. You can view it like trickers knifes were you need 6 knife throws to injure a survivor. Now before jumping straight into this sounds like old legion, I ain’t done yet.
While in Frenzy, the gauge does not refill each time the survivor is stabbed, this makes it so legion isn’t infinitely stabbing down a survivor during a chase.
If you hate the idea of not being able to refill the gauge then instead you can make it where while in frenzy you start with 5.2 m/s and for each stab you lose 0.3 m/s
Remove his ability to vault. Most people will go nuts and tell me that is what makes him special but you got wesker who can do the same thing but better, no wonder he had a 7% pick rate. Removing his ability to vault pallets atleast would make it to where legion doesn’t fully neglect any counter to him. He could atleast break pallets while in frenzy but it wouldn’t pause the gauge unless you would put on a add-on.
Ill probably add more edits of ideas for stabby 4 people, but so far that what I think that can make legion great again.
I think it is fine that he is a low tier killer, he has very little killer specific things to learn about him and basically with a few hours and some tutorial videos there is barely a difference between good and bad players. It would need a full rework to justify making him stronger. Because currently what is there to learn about him? The Legion "tech" where you get blinded in your power mid vault and then m1 the guy blinding you so he gets downed, maybe decision making whether to follow someone with your power or change targets or whatever, but I already don't really see that as killer specific but more general killer gameplay, basically the overall macro game.
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@Bran said:
Slinger does need them reverted. All the nerfs did was kill the killer and make another killer non viable for actual good games.
Sure really dead killer, which is why he still can outplay most tiles in the game, shoot through tiny cracks and gets used in comp, unlike many other killers... If you only performed well before with him then maybe you just need to put in some effort to learn how to aim, because insta shoot slinger was free: Free zoning, free hits...
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3543209#Comment_3543209
"not a single person out there likes to play against" , "basically everyone agrees that's it is annoying and miserable to against." Amazing how your view reflects the views of everybody. Absolutism usually makes for weak arguments because it's based solely on feeling and opinionated perspective.
So once again why not play against bots? I've answered this already, bot games don't provide any of the bonuses that online games do. A legit strategy against bots is just as legit against humans, even a potentially annoying strat can be legit if within the confines of the game rules.
Rationalize the abuse of other players over game mechanics all you want. No matter how moral you feel in your need to police in game behaviour. It doesn't change the fact that neither the OP, or anyone else, owe you, or this community, an explanation for how they choose to legitimately play the game.
If you go over the forum how many people did you see that wrote posts that they liked to get 3 genned by skull merchant? On the other hand how many people complained about it? It was already agreed upon before that it is a terrible mechanic that needed to change, so why exactly would people like to against it and where are all the voices that like? Who wants a dragged out game for 30+ minutes? My point was that nobody voiced that they liked it, if you find one please tell me, before I m seriously curious how they could enjoy that...
It does not really provide any bonuses for the gameplay I would say, you could argue BP but long games don't really award many I'm comparison to the time spend so I don't see that either.
How exactly is it abuse to call people out for what they did when they did it? If you play a match and take into account that you know that you will make the other side miserable and you still do it, why should they not call you out on it? You can play how you like it and they can tell you what they think of you for playing a certain way, if one is fair play so is the other. Sure they don't owe me, but I still don't see why I am not allowed to that tell them that is was horribly annoying to get against, I don't have a right to tell them how to play, sure, but they don't have a right not to hear how miserable the whole thing was, which they already know that it is anyway, since the forum has been full of it and so on and so forth.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542441#Comment_3542441
Ugh I had a response to this but I realized its going in circles and when people start misusing the term strawman as some kind of argument winning buzzword it gets old quick, so rather than reply directly I'll sum up with the same argument I've always held to with anything like this because it doesn't matter what the gameplay is the argument is always the same. To the topic at hand 3-Gen SM...
- Does 3-gen SM need fixing? yes it's pretty obvious that its mechanically broken and drags the game out for longer than intended.
- Will playing 3-gen SM upset some players because they don't like it? Yes its obvious some people will get upset over it.
- The fact that some people get upset over it means that nobody should ever play it? No, because guess what your grumpy opinion doesn't get to dictate how others have fun in a game. If we let that kind of thinking take precedence then people wouldn't be able to do anything in game.
- Should players at least try not to make other players upset in game? Sure but given the subjective nature of offence anything in game may upset your opponent, all you can do is focus on your own fun and play within the confines of the rules and not engage in post or out of game toxicity. Name calling, taunting, abuse etc.
- Do player's playing in a way I don't like make them jerks? Inherently no, judging the character of a person over a single instance of online gaming mechanics is a very petty, assumptive and childish way to behave.
- Can I accept that online gaming involves interaction with many strangers with varying experience, motivation and concepts of what's fun? You have to accept that, you are randomly playing with strangers from all walks of life. You can't expect to apply the same standards of game etiquette to that setting that you would find in a more intimate friends setting or even a face to face gaming group with strangers.
- Do I need to realize its only a game and if I die/lose its not the end of the world? You should start that way and stop when you can't maintain that mindset anymore.
With this set of ideas established I go back to the comment that started all this discussion, that the "OP doesn't need to justify why they play or enjoy 3-Gen SM to this community," they are allowed to enjoy it while it's a thing.
Last bit of food for thought, if you are going around calling people who play in a way you don't like jerks or other names, it just may be you whom is the real jerk.
" Should players at least try not to make other players upset in game? "
It is fairly obvious that not a single person out there likes to play against a 3genning skull merchant, there is not much subjective difference about that... Yeah sure we don't know" how he holds his 3gen" but what is it most likely? He is kicking gens, following survivors for short distances, maybe make them drop pallets nearby and then straight back to the generators... I don't think many, if any people enjoy going against something like that.
"Do player's playing in a way I don't like make them jerks?"
Yeah, once again rather subjective what people like or don't like, but then again if it something that basically nobody likes, like caitlyn 3 Gen ner over here, then yeah you might be a jerk, same if you slug 4 people and bleed them out for no reason. You obviously know that those people will dislike the playstyle and dislike you for playing it and you cannot even say you didn't know because basically everyone agrees that's it is annoying and miserable to against. Also nobody's personality is just being a jerk but playing skull merchant and 3 genning is a jerk move and makes you a jerk in that certain situation...
I mean you can play the way you want but if you play like a jerk you cannot really complain about being called out for it... You knew nobody likes the playstyle and they will have a miserable time, it is what it is...
Also it is not about dieing or living it is about the amount of time wasted and the only way to not waste 20-60 minutes in a boring 3 Gen game is by dying early, whichsny people won't do out of spite but yeah the most reasonable thing is to just go afk or DC so they can have their chill win or the game against bots, anything else is most of the time just a useless struggle against an inevitable outcome...
So once again why not play against bots? You don't ruin people's days, you don't need to justify yourself, you don't get called out for this and your game does not change, since you have the same gameplay of kicking gens...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542523#Comment_3542523
old slinger was more on survivor to outplay the killer. new slinger is more on survivor to make a series mistake in chase rather killer having any input in outcome on the match. he can still hit you at the vast majority of the tiles if you make poor plays.
I mean how do you outplay someone that just gets the hit if he is patient enough? I don't necessarily think you need to make a mistake against current slinger, if there aren't line of sight blockers he will hit you eventually... Not all maps have high walls...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542492#Comment_3542492
i am saying you can side-step slinger harpoon gun on reaction if you far away enough from him. the bots can do it on any range. The human player has to manipulate distances and use line of sight to outplay old slinger. It is sophisticated counter-play. don't worry, you don't have to do anything of that. you can just play vs easy mode slinger.
Hens once said something along the lines that old slinger was free to get hits and now you need to put some effort in, I think that is fair and I still would not call it easy slinger, he can still hit you at the vast majority of tiles if he is good enough.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542350#Comment_3542350
you were not locked into lose/lose situation. you put yourself in a lose/lose situation by over-respecting shots that did not need to be respected.
the deathslinger harpoon has small hitbox and a travel time before it reaches you as survivor. you were suppose to be doing a single wiggle to left or right similar to how AI plays vs ranged killers. there is no reason to wiggle between 14-18 meters of the shot at all because shot is possible to react to. When slinger approaches 9-13 meters, it becomes much harder to react to side-step his shot however he is 110% m/s so your suppose to very far ahead of the slinger. In cases where you are not, you should be using obstacles as walls to avoid wiggling to lose distance. eventually when you pass a certain tile-set corner or approach a pallet, this is where you should consider wiggling and baitshots because old deathslinger will try to take shots as you approach line of sight blocker.
in certain instances where deathslinger has clear line of sight, wiggling was tactically a good idea because if pallet is say 5 meters away from you but deathslinger is 13-14 meters away from you, you could wiggle in unpredictable pattern while approaching the pallet linearly to make shot more difficult for slinger. you lose distance for wiggling but due to proximity of the pallet, the distance loss will not matter once you reach the pallet.
@SimpleTora post is talking about xeno's tail strike has similar mind game potencial at dropped pallet as old quick scope deathslinger had. that is why he is questioning current slinger with current xeno runner mode at loops. due to perception you explained in your post, the deathslinger remains have long wind-up because survivor did not play correctly to counter the hold-w elements of deathslinger between loops. with xeno, the mind games are only at pallets as xeno tail strike is only 4.8 meters. not 18 meters like the slinger. Old deathslinger had greater depth in looping for survivor.
You do realize the bots dodge range shots because they have 0 reaction time right? Just like they can see you through walls... So maybe don't take them as an example...
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@SimpleTora said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3539217#Comment_3539217
Old slinger was never broken. He crept up on people because of a perk + low TR music. Bumping up TR audio was an easier solution instead of nerfing so people could actually hear it before he was in shooting range.
His addons got nerfed for being overused and there's absolutely no argument on that, without touching on the fact that the rest of his addons were absolutely useless in more than half the scenarios you'd be faced with. They nerfed them for 0 reason other than popularity instead of just reworking his other addons to actually do something useful.
His "quickscope" was something that took time to actually get right (you don't see Nurse being gutted despite her having one of the most unfair abilities in the game) you landed the shot you were rewarded and if you didn't you were HEAVILY punished. How is that not fair if not a little weak on slingers side.
His range was higher, yes i'll give you that but unless you live your life playing shooters nobody was hitting 18m shots in every single game especially not with how tiny the hitbox on the spear is. The range argument is irrelevant since in most cases when you chase a survivor you were hitting them in the exact same situations Xeno does (at a window or pallet)
turrets even if placed properly still take time to set up. 5 seconds spent setting up a turret is 5 seconds not on a gen. 4 survivors doing that at the start of the match means you just wasted 20 seconds of the survivors time doing nothing but existing. Repeat this for each turret spent setting up and unlike Slinger Xeno has map mobility on top of being a faster killer.
Xeno can do basically anything Slinger can but better there's absolutely no reason to play him right now over Xeno other than personal preference of fun, which isn't a bad thing mind you, but it's not fair at all
With Monitor and abuse you had a 16 m heartbeat but could shoot from 18 m away, terror radius adjustment in volume does not help with that issue.
Quickshot has the issue of offering free zoning, bc you zoom quickly with 0 cool down or negative effect if you only do it shortly and you can basically force survivors to juke and if they don't you just get the free hit, it was just terrible, basically the same issue xeno currently has, but over shorter range here.
I don't have in mind what got changed about his addons, but I think reload were the strongest back then as well? Did they get changed too?
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3541533#Comment_3541533
I'm aware of this and have said it myself to some extent so if the devs are aware ask yourself am I attacking the bad design or am I attacking other players over it when I post about it?
I'm not arguing in favor of 3 gen SM, it is bad design. But you can try and play it out or you can sit around an whine about it till its patched out. What will you choose?
The OP felt the need to try and justify why the enjoy 3-gen SM, my point has always been they don't need to justify why they play or enjoy it because its a legit in game thing and until its patched out some people are gonna play and enjoy it and that doesn't make them bad people.
The concept of not hating on each other over game mechanics is really triggering to some people.
I gotta ask is this because they spend their day hating on each other over game mechanics and are trying their best not to feel ridiculous or petty about it, when in reality its nothing but ridiculous and petty.
It is more over specific playstyle not game mechanics... It is not that the bleeding out exists and that you don't get slugged for eternity but you can still get annoyed by players bleeding you out for four minutes and call them out for it, same with 3 genning skull merchant, there is nothing wrong with it. People telling you how they felt after playing against you should at least be one part of why post game chat even exists.
You can also try to break a brick wall with your head, has the same chances as breaking a 3gen against sm as soloq...
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3541527#Comment_3541527
Is that genuinely the case because I've been eventually downed and bled out or hooked by every one of them that I've faced. Which only equates to about 4 times online.
So I see it very rarely and when trying to break the 3 gen I died each time and moved on.
Now if you are stuck in game with someone whom doesn't even swing at you and just walks around in circles kicking gens report that person they are stalling the game.
Doesn't sound to me like that is the motivation of the OP though.
So are we going to just assume all players who try 3-gen SM are out to stall the game and maliciously ruin your fun?
Or do you just assume that at game start and then quit having never really verified if they are by trying to play it out?
The topic I'm discussing is players making assumptions and how they act in game and treat each other outside game on the basis of those assumptions, the catalyst for this could be anything it just happens to be 3-gen SM in this circumstance.
It's relevant because the OP made a whole thread explaining why they enjoy playing 3-gen SM and I don't really see any malicious intent in their explanation, but that didn't stop the drooling masses from getting all riled up about it.
Yeah and the explanation was they like a chill game and still win with little to no effort, with basically no knowledge of the game or game mechanic and basically also regardless of the other sides imput, which makes it so the other side could basically be replaced by bots, which many people already suggested... If you want good chases you need players because the bots aren't good and cannot be mind gamed, if you just wanna kick gens for an hour you don't need players.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3541185#Comment_3541185
That's a game design flaw for the devs to look at.
You can still progress the game but at the moment its often too difficult to do so without dying so it needs changing
Its not really holding the game hostage as players can still attempt to progress the objective. (If BHVR has a different opinion on this they are welcome to correct me).
So rather than sit in game for 1 hour and moan about it, try and break the 3 gen and die trying if it comes to that.
If you are annoyed by the duration then bleeding out in 4 mins is shorter than hiding for 60.
Measurable in game outcome that is skewed will lead to change quicker than going around saying "such and such ruined my fun!" If you do say hey this doesn't work then you gotta frame it as "Hey this doesn't work" not "if some does this they are a jerk" these are the two different things which is my point.
One is an objective measure the other is a subjective opinion.
Until then much like other broken tactics that don't break any game rules you might face it in game. How you choose to react to that fact is often what dictates how legitimate your opinion is when it comes to game design.
You effectively cannot progress the game in any reasonable way, that's the whole issue of this and why the deva want to change skull merchant... It is already openly frames as problematic and everyone knows that.
Back when locker saves were still a thing you had something similar, the killer could do nothing but grab them out of the locker until the flashlight was empty, that was basically holding him hostage, as he had no other option to progress the game similar to sm 3gen..
Also the die trying is what happens most of the time because they either DC or give up bc it is basically impossible to break without coms.
WE don't need to go around and shout anything, the deva already said it s problematic and needs change, it is fairly obvious that people are annoyed by it and if you still do it they will hate you for that's fair... We could as well say it is allowed to do but it is fairly obvious that people will call you out for it which is fair and also allowed.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3541266#Comment_3541266
Stop assuming the worst as people's motivation.
Its just as bad a habit and as I have said to you before clouds your objectivity.
Dude the 3 genning sm only kicks gens for an hour, does not chase and that's it, there is nothing fun and entertaining about it? You re just waiting for players to get sick of it and either give up or DC...
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540958#Comment_3540958
Well the OP has tried to explain they are not out to ruin other people's fun and don't harbor any malicious intent to do so.
So this idea is already null.
I'm sorry but tactics that you don't like aren't game ruining and the intent of players who use them is often not because they are out to maliciously ruin your fun.
If you paint every scenario you don't like with that brush its very easy to get into a cycle of blaming other players for your lack of enjoyment and that's just self destructive when it comes to your own fun.
Something you don't like by all means say I don't like this and here's why, but to say people who do what I don't like should only play against bots is something entirely different.
There is a difference between that and basically holding a game hostage for an hour to make it end that way...
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3539703#Comment_3539703
If folks quit and you end up facing bots well then you gotta be happy facing bots and you can change what you do to minimise that, but there is no obligation to change.
Demanding someone play only against bots because they may play in a manner that you don't like is a silly thing to expect to happen.
The of the question was more in the sense that when playing against as a 3 Gen skull merchant the survivor imput does not really matter, if all you do is hold that 3 Gen you will have a 1h long game of only kicking gens and resetting drones and it will be really hard to win as survs unless in comma and experienced, which won't happen often at all. The point is if what you do gameplay wise does not change whether it is against bots or against players, why ruin people's days? You don't chase people so it does not matter that the bots are weird in chase (terrible but also seeing you all the time...) And you cannot tell me it is about the BP, because you spend an hour to get a max of 40k base BP that's not worth the time anyway...
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@Felgoose said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3526168#Comment_3526168
I respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree. I think the variety of builds in the game is what keeps it interesting. If anything, perks and items/addons should have a greater impact than they do currently. Very strong perks to counter anything someone finds particularly not fun to play against keeps the game more balanced, interesting, and fun for everyone.
If your least favorite thing is getting tunneled, you should be able to put together an anti-tunneling build that doesn't allow even the most aggressive tunneler to tunnel you. (There should not be perks that make tunneling easier to the point of overwhelming an anti-tunnel build as it is considered universally undesirable gameplay)
If you get frustrated by not being able to find anyone as a killer, you should be able to make a build where you have much more awareness of everyone's location (except those who's build is for not being found so easily)
If you can't stand being blinded, there should be a perk that prevents it. ('successful' blind attempts against killers with lightborn should still count for challenge purposes though)
If you can't stand getting 360'd, well there's no perk that really helps with that except maybe unrelenting which doesn't do much for it so I guess you'll need to complain to the devs and get them to admit that it's a lag compensation exploit that would be easily fixed by adding mkb support for all platforms but would ultimately be better resolved by adding full body inertia for survivors that would allow for proper lag comp and would look and feel fine because the survivors are in third person.
I meant in the sense of specific killers, like I stated not things that are available to everyone, that should have been fairly obvious when I said "helps against certain killers", but in your sense it also kills perk variety because if everyone runs anti tunnel anti camp perks and nothing else then you have 130 perks that are just not used...
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540464#Comment_3540464
I guess then you're in favor of what was happening back in the arcade days where people who would find a new strategy in fighting games and used it (usually teens) and people bigger than them who probably would agree with you would bully them and threaten them with violence and have tantrums over someone not following their made up rules or something. And now after all those years those people look remember them as complete clowns and mentally unstable individuals for reacting that way over the game.
Your example has no basis in reality because the rules are made by BHVR themself, except for cheating and exploits of course. They designed and added SM in the game in her current state and are not doing anything to address her nor even acting like there's anything wrong with her. If they allow you to put your imaginary ball under your shirt then is it really unintended when they (BHVR) acting like the referee do nothing to actually address it and say "X this is not allowed and will be considered cheating from now on". Currently they are not, you should be mad at them not at players who are not cheating or using well defined exploits in the game (no, your personal definition of an exploit doesn't count)
Your post is on the same level as the killers who claim "this game was never intended to be played with friends and using discord in pubs is actually cheating/exploit".
Little bit over the top, but the point of not wanting to play under certain conditions... Like let's say the bully behaves more like a human being in the sense that he instead of threatening people he just says "look this is really unfun, can you not do this? Otherwise you need someone else to play with", because that exactly is how people going against skull merchant feel... It sucks but they cannot really opt out other than DC or just go afk...
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540458#Comment_3540458
Which is allowed and facilitated by the creators themselves.
They already said they are aware that it is problematic and even buffed anti 3 Gen perks but said the real fix will take some time, so what is your point?
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540208#Comment_3540208
I wouldn't be surprised. I consider some of the rampant camping and tunneling to be a solid indicator in that regard or good nurses using nowhere to hide in public matches for that matter.
Besides slowdown and aura reading nothing is worth running on nurse, so why not run that, also stealth playstyle is annoying af to go against.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3540407#Comment_3540407
The op never said they rub it in the face of survivors. They could very well be polite and kind in post chat, we have no way of knowing that. Asking them to not play Skull Merchant and if they do not play them the way you like ever is a bit entitled. I understand disliking this killer and their playstyle. I also dislike Nurses and Blights who sweat even one peron DC'd or killed themselves on hook and make fun of them.
But it's a stretch to try and put a moral spin to a post like this and talk about community (which community again? We don't even know what server OP plays in).
And if you wanna make comparison asking people to self-regulate cause the company is untrustworthy or something is like saying we can solve environmental pollution by using paper straws and cups etc. and accept it as individual responsibility and refuse to address the ones who produce the most pollutants because you're pessimistic. It won't solve the problem, just put a cover over it. You shame OP out of playing Skull Merchant but you can't get to every Skull Merchant main out there who feels the exact same way or people who play her in comp etc.
For a long while I thought survivor's rulebook was an exaggerrated story killers read to each other before going to bed, but in some of the posts I've read today I'm starting to doubt my assumption so far.
It is not about playing the killer itself but the playstyle, that much should be obvious...