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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747581#Comment_3747581
If there's one thing we know for a fact it's that taking two perk slots has no bearing on whether a combo is balanced or not.
Otherwise you're directly saying that BU+FtP and FB+BP were also fine, since they also take up two perk slots and the killer 100% controls downs and pickups.
The killer never had any control over BU and FTP anyone who thinks so definitely never was using it correctly that's why it was so hated.
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This needs to be said
Neither killers nor survivors are more toxic than the other. It's just that the communities that play each role just want different things out of the game its why the online content creators that either apply to one side of the community or the other have very different content for very different communities
Killers are more competitive which is why the biggest generally killer players like
- Otzdarva
- Tru3
- Scott Jund
Often post extensively about balance or like Otzdarva have a website made for this
Link to his website below
While the biggest survivor players like
- Arun
- JRM
- Skermz
generally don't do videos like this.
So some killers end up going "These survivor's are so sadistic and just keep tormenting me"
and some survivors end up going "These killer's are so sweaty and just keep tunneling/camping me"
when both sides are just trying to play the game.
Also I feel the need to say this is not on anyone to change its just kind of how an Asym game is going to be different people will be attracted to different roles in any game its just more pronounced in a Asym.
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That menu look sooo ass
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Sorry i dont know how to PM but i think we should wrap this up soon as we are not really going anywhere.
Believe us when we say you've offended us more with "You don't need this defined for you." than the crutches thing.
Yea but you have consistently said things along the lines of"I could say something rude but I wont" If i said that to someone IRL they would deck me. Infering their is something to be said is another way of saying it. The crutches thing was just one of the few things I did not intend to be hurt feeling over.
Their are many other cases where i dont care if feeling take a back seat but its always good to apologise when you realise something may come across wrongly. "Rulebreaker" is shared between the 3 of us. When we say "we" we often times literally mean it opposed to "I" where its that specific one. (Admittedly other times we also like to mess with ppls heads) Also if you really wish to continue this, we ask for either another thread or PM as we do feel bad about derailing this one.
I just assumed you were one person doing a roleplay of somekind tbh
Gonna be honest, once we saw the "It's why the biggest killer content creators" we just ignored it. If there really is and important bit of info in there one of us will read it but we generally don't like them due to what we call the "sheeple effect" [People parroting the content creators beliefs and ideas without seeing for themselves]
Its kinda a semi-important point on why killer players will play in a specific way that survivers generally won't.
I recommend reading it because I think it works as evidence as to why I am correct on one of my other views if you agree with the premise of the views I express in the paragraph.
Do we really need to explain how they work cause last time we tried this in your other thread you said it won't work.
It's because even if something counters something else if its too weak its still not worth bringing.
Think of it using this overwatch analogy (you don't need to understand overwatch to get it, its just a game where this problem is a core part of its design.)
Hero A counters Hero B
Hero B is counted by Hero C
If Hero B is significantly stronger than Hero A to the point that picking Hero A is just not worth it and hero C counters B then depending on the balance of their strengths hero C or B will be the meta.
Think of this example in dbd being
Token burning Aura perks counters Distortion
Distortion is also countered by having a full slowdown. (because 1 less suv perk vs full slowdown put the slowdown build at an advantage)
Then the existence of token burning aura perks doesn't matter as A just becomes the inferior option to C.
It just dose not matter that these perks exist while slowdown is better even at dealing with distorion.
And if the game becomes more like this and this style of perk design is explanded the game will fall flat on its face and its why even if most perks right now work into eachother just fine i am cautious of new perks being made solely to nullify the existence of other perks because the issue is not about how it is now its how it will be if it become too prevalent as it makes games more about luck and what you bring. (even if luck is never going to be the determining factor it will make the game seem worse.)
That's kinda my reasoning behind all the languid touch/distortion related arguments surmised in a much better and clearer format.
Have you said why its an good perk? (in honesty we have yet to see an in depth look from
anyone) We can make counter augments and say why we don't think its as good as people claim but all we've seen is "This is good because".I will give you the rundown but it's so basic that every good dbd player should know this.
- It can be procced on all maps in all locations.
- It can be used to greed a generator and still avoid a hit at times
- It can be used 99d to extend a chase (which is its primary and best use
- It can be used to enable a pallet save that otherwise would not have been possible
- point 5 but with flashlight save
- It can be used not just to extend a chase but turn an unsafe generator into a safe one as you can now make further pallets and windows.
- It makes it so you waste less time traversing the map
All for the low cost of having to manage exhaustion, which is not that hard to do its very easy to know when you may need it in the next 40 seconds as you can see who is in chase at all times so you don't even need to walk just have good gamesense.
Its been the best exhaustion perk in the game and has been for years.
But to be honest something this basic should not need justifying I want to assume you are a better player than to make the argument something like lithe is better I know it sounds insulting but just asking for this information seems ridiculous because is so basic and rooted in dbds fundamentals.
I can justify why everything that's good in dbd is but i should not need to and tbh i dont want to because it strays super off-topic.
Also
"Distortion existence in its current state makes the game worse for the people who are not using it and for killer using the perks in counters furthering the gap between the detection perks and the top perks its existence is not justifiable within this context." Distortion shuts down aura reading temporarily, it of itself is not making the game worse for us if we don't use it.
Yes but the effects of taking away aura is what matters not taking it away.
Weaker builds are punished see the A B C hero example and stronger builds are not. That's an unhealthy position for a perk to be in.
to him Sprint Burst is not good because he doesn't run it effectively.
To quote a dbd youtuber
"when you order a toothbrush how important is the review of the guy who sticks it up his ass"
If something is misused anything can be perceived as weak it does not mean it is.
The amount of players back in the day who used to Dead hard into walls and then go "Well dead hard not good because I cant use it" was mental and they were all wrong.
It's just not a subjective thing, yes it's not definitive either and a lot of how strong some perks are can be debated and argued but some things are just true.
edit sorry quotes seem to be bugged at the top and are unfixable.
edit 2- Laura croft has a bad perk meant to only work as an anti-scream perk. Dbd is slowly 100% going to go down the path of perks constantly countering other perks so they cant break another perk like Ultimate weapon at the expense of perk diversity when they inevitable do :(
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@DH3206 said:
I want to compliment you on your civil discussion. You really won this argument against him
Yea I can be confrontational but he is dishonest, and only engaged in sophistry arguing consistently for things to be defined as re-argued pages onwards.
For example how he never refuted properly my earlier point that arua perks are weak referencing the tier list's of a youtuber that likely has way more hours than both of us and addressing the perks on an indiviudal level. Then brought up knightlight stats to say look they are strong actually bro.
That's not civil. He never has been, when I directly asked for him to reference the perks he is talking about multiple times, he never listed them, When i asked him to write written justification he never did so
and before its mentioned referencing his argumentation makes this not an ad hominem as it's about his argument not him.
I have been way more willing to engage with rulebreakers posts because of stuff like this and don't want to interact with him.
You cannot annoy someone like SpongeBob and then celebrate victory for being annoying.
He did not win an argument he just acted a bit like a ****. (yes that is an ad hominem)
Edit- Tbh re reading this you can think whatever you want of the argument that your right and my tilt does not change that.
but the fact you called that a civil discussion is outside the bounds of reality im sorry it just is
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Who decides what's the best? You? Us? Firellius? The devs? Cause let us tell you, EVERYONE has a different definition of that.
What good is not subjective. You can make the argument that technician is better than sprint burst. Just because its murky does not mean that it is all arguable so stop trying to say it is.
If you want to argue against the convention and say that a perk seen as worse is good then you need to argue to back it up rather than falling back on saying it's subjective. I have made many arguments that aura perks are just less effective than regression perks for example even if that is not actually against the convention and therefore you can surmise my reasons if you know what people's general opinions on regression perks are.
You keep trying to debate your opinions and views as facts. We are explaining how your word alone is NOT fact and that the few facts you have given have counter points.
If I say something that is conventionally seen as basic dbd knowledge such as sprint burst is an S tier perk if you believe it is not (which their is nothing to say you don't) then you need to say why.
That's why some opinions I don't need to justify you need to say why it's wrong.
The ones I have had to justify such as that aura perks are generally not strong perks and that gen regression/blocking perks are better (even though this is generally thought to be true) I have had to prove, referencing tier lists of generally respected players (such as otzdarva's) Individually explaining their weaknesses (such as with floods of rage) or in the case of distortion (i have made many arguments as to why it should be nerfed)
Then you say "it's just your opinion bro"
Yes its been backed up or is something so obvious such as
Sprint burst is a good perk
or
Regression perks (by and large) are the best killer perks.
That saying "that just your opinion" to a statement as blanketly accepted as that just makes you look like you have nothing to argue or don't understand dbd which I doubt is the case as you have played the game since 2017 but you may just be bad what do I know if I did not show your achievements that's what I would assume.
Its why stuff like this
You keep trying to debate your opinions and views as facts. We are explaining how your word alone is NOT fact and that the few facts you have given have counter points.
In the face of something like
Sprint burst is a good perk
Is mental. You are either bad or to quote yourself
Your missing or ignoring the point on purpose now aint cha?
So we're back again to the players being the issue. Since you claim that "they will play like scumbags" then whether or not they see an aura they wouldn't leave since they'll do the "tunnel out the player/camp and force stages on the players he has the easiest access to by ping-ponging between".
The players aren't the issue because you cant change a player base as easy as a perk but you know what my view on the killer playerbase is I've said what I think a lot of them want out of the game and referenced the anecdotal evidence as to why pointing to the killer and survivor content creators as examples because there are no real good things to reference for this stuff.
and they will in my view generally be more willing to compromise on playing "nicely" to win so if BBQ for example doesn't go off when someone's hooked they will camp.
Yes there are other reasons it may not go off or they may be not running BBQ another perk can be used as the example the point is taking the aura away and forcing them to take a risk. It is not going to happen so it no its not necessarily true that the players that play in a specific way would all do it anyway. Its why the perk encourages it.
And here we go again. Who defines weak? Weak is in the eyes of the beholder (kinda sad that wasnt the dnd killer) and a handful aren't weak to us.
Argue gearhead or Weave Attunement is better than an actual good perk then. You are the one with the maverick opinion here you and im just ending part here because i would just being going over the start of this reply all over again.
And again, thats your views and thats fine. Our views on that specifically is that some perks hindering others is fine. Considering we already have some perks that disable others and some
POWERSthat disable perks, we don't feel like it'll decrease all that much more. Especially considering theres a lack of variety anywaysTheir is nowhere to go with this paragraph i think this is just somewhere we need to agree to disagree.
For a literal crutch we have seen sticks, one made of LEGO (which was pretty cool honestly) and one had a sword in it. Like we all said everything can be a crutch, and if some people really do use it as a crutch does that make it a crutch for everyone else? The answer we're seeing from you is yes. If so, so be it, but then every perk is a crutch then as they hold players up (we can't remember the last time we saw a good perkless player in the wild).
Also sorry if the crutches thing came off a rude i just kinda assumed you may not be English or live in an English-speaking country, which despite my awful grammer. I do putting me at an advantage if you don't. Because i don't know what crutch is translated in any European language I should not assume anyone else knows the actual meaning
and therefore you may only know the term from gaming. Also if you don't mind me asking what's up with the we thing?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747755#Comment_3747755
If it goes off next to you (which floods won't 9/10 time because of its conditions)
It doesn't need to be 'next to you', that thing is global and lasts seven seconds. If the killer is roughly 15 seconds away from you, this perk will still get you caught. Anything less than that just makes it easier. That's not 'next to you'.
If you cannot avoid ever being chased have never faked your running direction when aura proceed
That works against BBQ because that perk specifically demands that the killer be sufficiently far from you to allow you time to misdirect. This is a limitation NONE of the other perks have.
or guestimated an aura perk
Knowing a perk is in play doesn't mean you can work around it. Knowing there's a Floods of Rage in play doesn't mean you can do anything about it pinging you when it fires.
You dropped this argument before because you realised it was untenable, why pick it back up?
You have said its impossible to hide from the killer, that without distortion a playstyle is erased i am assuming that playstyle means never being found
Playing ring-around-the-rosy with a killer is going to be significantly easier if survivors don't keep getting lit up like christmas trees. That doesn't mean 'make the survivor impossible to find'. It just means 'Don't let a single perk do ALL the work for the killer and make stealth flatly impossible'.
It's perfectly fine to get caught. Just not by wallhacks. There needs to be a chance to play this style out, and the aura reading power-creep has buried that. That's why Distortion is needed.
Does distortion enable it?
Boldly: No. The only thing Distortion does is make it easier to contribute to the team while keeping stealth on the table as an option. If the survivors aren't contributing at all, Distortion isn't doing anything for them that a locker couldn't do.
Shattered hope was added to the game in the patch before distortions rework.
Except Distortion already blocked aura reading before then.
Thats not addressing that's dismissing.
Because we've been over this so many times!
You refuse to listen. You refuse to consider any viewpoint other than your own. Over the course of this thread, I have explained to you repeatedly that Distortion is not the problem here. I have taken down every argument you've tossed out multiple times. I've been engaging with you the entire time, and all you've done is say 'waffle'. Like a kid plugging their ears.
Any of the arguments you have levelled at why Distortion ostensibly requires a nerf does not stand up to scrutiny. I've been dismantling every single one of them and you have the gall to say 'you have not justified Distortion's existence' when I've been doing nothing but.
It is incredibly disingenuous to disregard everything I've said and jump to such a conclusion and I find it frankly disrespectful.
Playing ring-around-the-rosy with a killer is going to be significantly easier if survivors don't keep getting lit up like christmas trees. That doesn't mean 'make the survivor impossible to find'. It just means 'Don't let a single perk do ALL the work for the killer and make stealth flatly impossible'.
Initially Im all ears was not the issue now its chasing that's the issue.
Boldly: No.
You are wrong.
Except Distortion already blocked aura reading before then.
Yes and im saying its effective erasal of certain perks being able to be used on you is the issue. I did not do that back then before stacks regenerated.
You refuse to listen. You refuse to consider any viewpoint other than your own. Over the course of this thread, I have explained to you repeatedly that Distortion is not the problem here. I have taken down every argument you've tossed out multiple times. I've been engaging with you the entire time, and all you've done is say 'waffle'. Like a kid plugging their ears.
You can't backup what you say so you dont. your views have bent according to what you could say to defend the perk
look here
you said this earlier
You correctly identified that I'm All Ears is NOT one of the problem perks as it serves a different function.
Chasing not an issue with aura for you now
Playing ring-around-the-rosy with a killer is going to be significantly easier if survivors don't keep getting lit up like christmas trees.
Also
That's not a selfish perk, it's a selfish player.
Then right after you say distortion does not encourage it while you also said
They can run a playstyle that is -that- selfish without the use of Distortion by just sitting in the locker all day.
So the downside those players face gets erased and its not considered something that encourages them to play like that
waffle YOU JUST WAFFLE
Then you say
You refuse to consider any viewpoint other than your own.
You do not hold any consistent viewpoints other than "i like the perk" thats it.
But when you give one out as inconsistent as they are could you please do me a favour try to back them up partially at least.
Edit: dont bother replying this is a waste of time. Im not replying to you again.
You are never going to be convinced and your views bend like a palm tree.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746151#Comment_3746151
If the pressure is off every surviver the killer then the survivers are gaining progress while the killer is gaining nothing. That is strong very strong.
And what is stopping the killer from going out and trying to pressure the survivors? If its a lack of aura reading then theres a problem with said killer as there was a time long ago that killers didn't have all these fancy perks that lit survivors up like Christmas lights. Many still did fine then without them.
It dose nothing that's why i keep saying it punishes the killer for using perks that are weaker a friend of mine played a game of wesker today streaming it to me in discord where in ran Pain res, Ruin, Brutal strength, and plaything. Every survivor had effectively 3 perks because he does not run aura reading.
And we keep thinking your either missing or ignoring the point. And also being a bit of a hypocrite here. First look at this part of what you said above: "If the pressure is off every surviver the killer then the survivers are gaining progress while the killer is gaining nothing. That is strong very strong."
Now read the next thing: "Every survivor had effectively 3 perks because he does not run aura reading."
….so how can something be strong and yet not do anything? The survivors there got nothin outta distortion while the killer was gaining progress.
Next is that no, it doesn't "punish" anyone. As we've said, perks are ment to shore up weaknesses (or compliment a playstyle but we didn't say this before). Some like the help aura reading gives, others don't, its the player's choice to run whatever they wish, and its never going to be perfect 100% of the time.
The chase is the game. yes there is a macro game to dbd but nobody respects a player for being good on gens or knowing when to camp. It is just not it and even your previous post seems to miss this point when you say
-[Insert our quote here]-
Offering the killers the choice of camping or playing the game with effectively 1 less perk, potentially 2 is not a good idea.
(they will camp lots of killers will always try and win no matter what)
The chase is a PART of the game, its not the whole game. If the survivors are good enough, can be entirely avoided. Most on dbd don't respect anyone, so we don't know what your expecting here. I'll say this though, I respect one who was able to be effective while stealthing more than the idiot who wanted my attention and going down in 10 seconds (the other 2 may vary). And as for the last 2 there, your trying to make the best out of your situation in this scenario. You may not think its a good idea but thats the way this works, and if they do camp, the aforementioned gens get finished without worry and off the rest go. And the ones that do hunt even if they can't see auras with their perks tend to do better overall than the camping ones from our experience.
I feel like people are misunderstanding this because they just are used to how strong the top tier of stuff is.
We can't speak for everyone but we were here when there was instant-repair-BNP, instant-up medkits, infinites, exhaustion recovering while running, Dribbling DS, Original DH, Omega nurse, moon walking legions, and things such as those. Those were "broken" to us. Many things currently are strong but not like that. Things like distortion compared to THOSE are laughable.
Most of the best perks are broken imo.
Hey~ You finally admitted it your opinions and not undeniable facts, we're proud. 👏 I know we poked the bait, so we'll admit fault to that, if you want us to reply to the stuff below regarding the next 4 paragraphs we will, but on a different thread as we'll completely derail the topic here otherwise.
You said
Perks are ment to shore up your weaknessesbut can you really say that avoiding being found and letting someone else take all the pressure is just shoring up a weakness or is it significantly impacting the match?
Honestly? Yes. Its dependent on the situation as there are matches where someone is using it to hide while being unproductive. There are also those who use it so that they can remain productive by not having the killer come to their gen or intercept their incoming rescue/hex breaking/whatever. People can also run distortion and attempt to take agro anyway, its just harder. Overall, its a person problem not a perk problem. And as Firellius has repeatedly pointed out, theres 4 survivors total. Its not just 1 person taking all the pressure most times (bar tunneling).
to me, this comes across as describing a crutch ( im not saying its your crutch but I'm saying perks like this are crutches) because as I said the game is the chase it is what players are judged on, and if nobody in the lobby can hold one you will lose no matter what because anyone can do gen whether they choose to is something else. Also, almost everyone who can hold a chase, even if they cannot vocalize an explanation for it, understands the macro game they just do it's not a difficult game conceptually.
Then literally every perk is a crutch. In fact, technically speaking yes, every perk is a crutch as everyone relies on them for help. And we're going to repeat that chase is a part of the game not the whole thing. If you can keep the killer in the area looking for you and never be seen, your burning more of their time and can keep being productive when the killer fs off rather than the idiot whos going down in 30 seconds or less.
"Also, almost everyone who can hold a chase, even if they cannot vocalize an explanation for it, understands the macro game they just do it's not a difficult game conceptually."
….and who exactly cares? This isn't to be completely rude as its a genuine question cause even if you can hold chase for minutes, if the killer finds and decides to target someone who cant chase, what good is it? The killer aint goin after you, your teammates are going to be dying much sooner unless they're able to hide, but they're having a much harder time cause distortion got hit by the nerf bat (…or knowing the history of this game, possibly the hammer). The macro (we're assuming this means the gens as your rather vague on what you mean by "Macro") may not be difficult but if no one does it then survivors can't get out.
Very well. Going by that definition then yes Distortion can become a crutch to specific players. Its admittedly confusing us as your definition implies a case by case basis. For example: "perk by itself makes a specifc players preform disproportionality better than the average player gets out of the perk" means to us that that player is crutching on it. But what of the players using it and still as good as the average player? Its not a crutch to them. Does it still make distoriton a crutch because some overly rely on it while the masses are fine?
You know what a literal crutch is, the physical thing?
Its something used to hold yourself up If a player would crumble if a perk was taken away from them. It means its a crutch they are leaning on it.
See though, alot of things
aresubjective when it comes to whats balanced or not.No the best perks are the best perks.
What's fun is subjective but what's good is not.
This whole debate it to try and change your subjective opinion with arguments and occasionally certain facts.
Yes but there are facts you are taking as opinions.
Sprint burst is a good perk, both a fact and an opinion. Regression perks (by and large) are the best killer perks. same thing.
"it's not nice to be forced to play a slower match to accommodate for your teammate who won't take any pressure." These are opinions and the third one in particular implies everyone who runs distortion won't take pressure, which is a subjective opinion and not fact. We know not every distortion user is a coward.
It's not all but it is a larger proportion than other perk users because the perk leans into in, you can say that's subjective but there is truth in that statement, and as I have said previously its easier to change perks than the players, especially if the perks are enablers.
For example breakdown is a bad perk but the way it's used to create zones players can't be hooked it I think justifies changes because the correct thing to do is to slug the players out but they usually run no mither. (its a rare occurrence but its also a rare perk and changing perks is easier then changing how players play)
"fair" and "primary importance"
You don't need this defined for you. I'm sorry.
How is Distortion itself causing this and not the player's choice? Is Distortion forcing the killer to camp? No. Is Distortion forcing the survivor to take risks? No. Is Distortion making the safe option, which is doing gens and getting out, the boring option? No
As i have said many times its easier to change perks than the players, especially if the perks are enablers.
Swap the word forcing with encouraging and most of these answers are a yes especially within the scenario we concocted.
If you offer the killer the option to play the game with 1 or 2 less perks (assuming they bring aura perks) being able to be used on 2 people that are running distortion or to tunnel out the player/camp and force stages on the players he has the easiest access to by ping-ponging between then they will play like scumbags. Killers always have its the role that attracts the more competitive players.
This is very anecdotal my argument that follows its something that has become apparent over time with dbd.
It's why the biggest killer content creators like Scott Jund, Tru3 and Otzdarva tend to talk quite a bit about balance while the biggest survivors Ayrun, JRM, and Skermz generally don't. The players that only play one role or the other generally have different things they want out of the game and killers are generally more competitive and will play to win.
I think you need to force killer kicking and screaming away from hooks once someones on it and it's why I want the self-unhook system changed in some way to do it but by not allowing perks to give information away that can only be acted on far from the hook its kinda encourages camping.
Awakened awareness, Gearhead, No where to hide, Lightborn and blood warden (yes, they in fact can if the survivor is stupid enough), undying (map dependent), and weave attunement are the aura perks that can chew through the 3 tokens very rapidly on their own (some under conditions as mentioned). Then we get into all the add ons for powers which we're not going to list. These things all chew through the initial 3 tokens you get and to get more you usually have to put yourself in the danger zone of a killers tr (some maps make this easier than others).
If we're going into "put into what you get territory" we're going to end up with a longer list so we're just say all the change did was give a sound que and add a way to gain tokens and thats by being close to the killer (aka potential death in most cases). We're going to ask if you think that seriously broke it.
Yea but all these perks that deal with distortion in conjunction with eachother are weak (except NTH) and like i said i dont like perks rolling over and disabling other perks anyway. It will make the game less interesting and decrease the variety of perks that get run over a long period of time if this is the direction the game goes in.
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If that killer has NTH, or Floods of Rage, or any of the perks we've been talking about, it IS impossible. NO killer is going to miss the bright red outline that'll serve as their handy-dandy 1-step guide to finding your exact location.
If it goes off next to you (which floods won't 9/10 time because of its conditions) and NTH is somewhere i agree goes to far and have from the start. It was in the big list i would have nerfed at the start.
'Just' is not an argument, despite your many attempts to use it as such. We've been over this and you were forced to walk that back when you realised that you can't, as you switched tactics to 'It's not a problem because these perks are never picked'. (Which you then also tried to claim you hadn't said)
I become more and more convinced you just cannot play the game. If you cannot avoid ever being chased have never faked your running direction when aura proceed or guestimated an aura perk please just stop posting at the point and I really hate to say this because whenever this comes up in a argument on the forums it looks pompous but…
It comes down to a skill issue. You can do these things.
It's a good thing you said 'if' because you know full well that's not what I've been talking about.
THEN WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!
You have said its impossible to hide from the killer, that without distortion a playstyle is erased i am assuming that playstyle means never being found dude because you are talking in extremes then saying
"look how dishonest this guy is good thing you said if"
waffle waffle waffle.
That's not a selfish perk, it's a selfish player. They can run a playstyle that is -that- selfish without the use of Distortion by just sitting in the locker all day. At least with Distortion, there's a chance they'll be doing gens or healing.
- it's easier to change perks than players
- Does distortion enable it?
Distortion preceded both Shattered Hope and Languid Touch.
Shattered hope was added to the game in the patch before distortions rework.
You can't just copy my criticism of you and hope it sticks, bud. I've been responding to pretty much everything you say, while you missed several of my points.
You have not.
read your last response in this post that was factually not just an incorrect reply here
Thats not addressing that's dismissing. You dont want to hear something then you blow it off.
You are asked what justifies distortions' existence and you say its the only thing that enables a specific "playstyle" or that Aura perks need nerfing.
waffle.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747299#Comment_3747299
Typically killers have powers that aid them in chase or survivor tracking. Hence why the blind spot for most killers is slowdown, and they can afford to go all in on slowdown perksn because the rest of the kit is provided for in their power/add ons.
There are exceptions, like Pinhead, Pig, etc. who have innate slowdown in their powern so they can afford to diversify their perks.
Even with killers that provide a side objective (pig/cenobite/anything with boxes) or more map pressure it's still worth more to bring slowdown.
They just are the best perks.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747452#Comment_3747452
Wow thanks for the education. I really love learning. I hear you about discussing cheating. I’ve tried mentioning cheating too and people usually are reluctant to believe anyone who thinks cheating is happening.
It also has an issue however that survivors cheating often use it because the 2 main ways you will be able to tell if a survivor is cheating is by seeing their aura or by judging their speed.
And the most cheated-on killer is spirit because cheaters can both see where you when phasing or use a program that visualises sound so distortion is not the silver bullet for cheaters whats really needed is a replay viewer but i think thats unlikely to ever happen.
@Senaxu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747016#Comment_3747016
Wall hacks are very common and, above all, risk-free hacks that are used in Dead by daylight. They are very difficult to prove and as part of the community now knows, bans are only issued if it can be clearly proven through evidence (screens or videos), as there is no automatic cheat protection.
So why does the Distortion perk help here? Let me explain:
Without distortion: "OK, the killer found me straight away again. Maybe he had perk XYZ. Well, whatever, move on to the next one."
With distortion:
"OK, the killer found me straight away again even though I have distortion and, like before, still had tokens left. That's strange, I'll wait in the lobby and check the killer's perks at the end of the match."And now comes the discussion about game knowledge and game sense again. I've been playing the game since 2018 and have gained a lot of experience since then. What I can say is that there are players with very good game knowledge and who also track survivors well. But if there is no 50/50 loss and the players are constantly being found, then something is wrong.
The topic of cheating is avoided as much as possible, be it by the community or by the studio itself. The fact is that there is still no server validation and automatic cheat protection, which makes it very easy if you don't make it too obvious.
The current distortion is a useful tool to better identify suspicious behavior.Back in 2018, when I started the game, cheating wasn't such a big problem and the cheaters we had made it very obvious. Today, however, you rarely find people who obviously cheat. However, subtle cheating is more common than most people think.
A sad fact but unfortunately most people don't care anyway.
A sad fact but unfortunately most people don't care anyway.
Personally I have seen a massive increase over the three months and I am very surprised its not talked about more.
There was always a lot of subtle cheating and thats what made singularity so fun to me for a while because he is not a common killer so they just forget about cameras sometimes.
https://youtu.be/IJsLKqIOrfs -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747268#Comment_3747268
Do you still think that really justifies distortion?
Yes, as a matter of fact, because it supports the argument I've been holding from the very start. If you want to play with the stealth aspect of the game, you -need- Distortion. You tried to refuse that claim, and now you've had to walk it back.
The fact that this entire gameplay style is dependent on Distortion is enough to justify it.
On the killers they are used you can still counter them
Except you can't. I thought you realised that by now.
I never said they are not picked I said they are bad.
'Scuse you?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747216#Comment_3747216
You don't locker dodge them because you don't need to. It's really that simple they are not often used perks
You don't need to be able to counter the 3 darkness-revealed Ghostface players quing right now
having you pull these examples that dont happen out of the hat makes me feel like bren
The theory does not matter if it never happens I'm sorry when it's used you can tell.
You seem to have forgotten that that is exactly what you said amidst your flurry of throwing things at the wall to see if something sticks.
it cuts out the least fun part of the game
Least fun for you, perhaps. But there's others to account for too. I enjoy stealth. Why do you get to bring a perk that disables my playstyle and my perks, but I can't bring a perk to protect me from that?
Its a dumb perk and nothing you have said has proven me wrong on this after days of posting.
Except everything I've said.
I will only reply one more time because you still have not justified distortions existence which is what i keep bringing up
I have done plenty to justify its existence. You just failed to engage with any of it.
Hell, even YOU have done some work to justify its existence. After all, if massive aura reading powercreep is just 'the game going a direction', then Distortion being in the game similarly justifies its own existence.
It's just the game going a direction.
Just not a direction you, specifically, like.
Yes, as a matter of fact, because it supports the argument I've been holding from the very start. If you want to play with the stealth aspect of the game, you -need- Distortion. You tried to refuse that claim, and now you've had to walk it back.
The fact that this entire gameplay style is dependent on Distortion is enough to justify it.
There is an entire assumption here it is impossible to be not found by a killer if you don't have it.
You can avoid the killer. You just can.
Equally, if you are saying it's impossible to go forever undetected if you don't have it then I would say going forever undetected deprives the killer of an element of gameplay WAY more so than aura perks deprive survivors of being able to hide from killer killers and if the killer decides to never bother to chase you on the assumption it's just not worth looking for you, checking the gen with no one on it or just assumes 2nd and 3rd hooking you would be too much hassle it puts the entire responsibility of holding the killer on your team. Hence why as this thread is named its a selfish perk and
It also is just unhealthy and it plays into what I see dbd slowly becoming where perks are being wheeled out as counters and solutions to perks that part of the playerbase sees as a problem rather than nerfing perks because the balanceing is kinda cowardly and too concerned with player feedback which has often left the S tier perks staying at the same level of power for years on end.
Its like how perks like how languid touch does nothing but apply exhaustion, a status effect meant to turn off specifc perks, or how shattered hope was supposed to be the answer to boon perks a while ago because distortion does a similar thing to both of these perks by just making a type of perk just not work on you. That's all it does and it makes it so what you bring into what the other side brings is becoming ever more important.
Distortion is just a terrible perk for the game, following a terrible precedent that has never been good.
Thats why is bad, selfish and should be changed like many other perk that have their own issue.
I have done plenty to justify its existence. You just failed to engage with any of it.
You have not justified it every time i quote something and write a reply ive engaged with it you just ignore anything of relevants so who is not engaging.
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Sprint burst, OTR, Kindred, Resilience with a medkit no addons.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745841#Comment_3745841
i'd argue that your killer skill improves faster in 1vs1 by tunneling. Your going to be way better at the chase. You may eventually find out how to evaluate the risk of going for strong loops vs risk losing gens. main drawback of tunneling is that you have faster chance to lose generators if you commit to the wrong tunnels and you will have less hook states allowing you to be more susceptible to bodyblocking(Unbreakable, Adrenaline), flashlights, pallet saves and hook sabotage.
other than that, there is lack of chase-risk in tunneling. It is not like survivor is stronger at the chase when they're getting tunneled. You don't get stat boosts as survivor for getting tunneled.
i'd argue that your killer skill improves faster in 1vs1 by tunneling. Your going to be way better at the chase. You may eventually find out how to evaluate the risk of going for strong loops vs risk losing gens.
It depends chasing better players on purpose can teach you how to correctly run things as a survivor and being chased as a survivor can help you learn how to chase on killer all while refining your general ability on each role. Generally playing against good players then coping them on the other role i think is the best bet.
Going for the weak link and tunneling them out however, wins games but you won't improve as quickly.
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I will say I do think this is more of a killer issue. I see far more triple/quad slowdown builds than I do quad-gen rush builds.
It's because they are the best perks on killer. There is not much reason to take anything else unless you want to specifically play around with a perk like Dissolution. The reason to use aura perks is to cut the boring part out.
You basically bring lots of gen defense if you want to win and a lot of killers just want to win. -
@Tzimiscelord said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747194#Comment_3747194
Now that you said this, i found, 3 days ago,a survivor so fast it couldnt be caught, i was usting a 4.6 meters killer and they could hold W and gain distance of me pretty much indefinitely.
Recently I've seen a massive spike in cheaters so maybe it is one. It might be a good idea to set up a clipping software because their is no replay viewer.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747216#Comment_3747216
You don't locker dodge them because you don't need to. It's really that simple they are not often used perks you so dont assume killers are using them that it. Why do you assume the killer has BBQ when you get in a locker. Because its used or their gameplay has indicated they have it.
That's moving the goalpost.
You stated that there's no aura reading perk you can't adapt to, and when I highlight a number of perks that a solo survivor cannot avoid, you switch to 'well, they're rare picks so who cares?'.
Doesn't change that these perks invalidate stealth and the associated perks. You said you could adapt to it, so adapt to it. Killer has Floods of Rage, or Darkness Revealed, or any other intel perk. How do you adapt to it?
You also don't need to avoid your aura being seen all the time because they are not strong perks. It's really that simple.
Because just taking it face-on is not 'adapting' to it.
You don't need to be able to counter the 3 darkness-revealed Ghostface players quing right now the ways its used make it obvious. (mainly by huntress and trickesters having you pull these examples that dont happen out of the hat makes me feel like bren
Acting like this is some 'stars align' thing is really disingenuous too. These perks don't have bad pick-rates and are decently high up on the list.
The theory does not matter if it never happens I'm sorry when it's used you can tell.
This kicks your argument in the shins too, buddy. How can Distortion be a problem if these aura reading perks are never picked? Remember that Distortion does nothing without aura reading. So if no one is picking aura reading, why are people picking up Distortion?
Could it, perchance, be that these perks are not nearly as rare as you make them out to be?
That's moving the goalpost.
You stated that there's no aura reading perk you can't adapt to, and when I highlight a number of perks that a solo survivor cannot avoid, you switch to 'well, they're rare picks so who cares?'.
Doesn't change that these perks invalidate stealth and the associated perks. You said you could adapt to it, so adapt to it. Killer has Floods of Rage, or Darkness Revealed, or any other intel perk. How do you adapt to it?
yes it is you win the argument that you cannot counter a bad killer running a bad perk on that killer.
Do you still think that really justifies distortion?
it does not.
I made one mistake, it does not validate your overall point so its not quite the burn you thinkActing like this is some 'stars align' thing is really disingenuous too. These perks don't have bad pick-rates and are decently high up on the list.
On the killers they are used you can still counter them the stars align point if for when you cant because its on a killer that its bad on and therefore its unforeseeable.
This kicks your argument in the shins too, buddy. How can Distortion be a problem if these aura reading perks are never picked?
I never said they are not picked I said they are bad.
Because they are… you get better results bringing slowdown and until slowdown is nerfed to the strongest aura perks level they will still be weak but picked because people do not like looking for survivors. It's the only reason I run them it cuts out the least fun part of the game at the expense of running a weaker build but then there is a perk that punishes you for doing that. When want to win a game for whatever reason I run full slowdown.
Its a dumb perk and nothing you have said has proven me wrong on this after days of posting. If you have a silver bullet use it because i am getting fed up of this waffle. I am rudely calling your posts waffle because unlike rulebreaker I don't really have to think that hard about dbd to write these replies hence my one slipup statement that even then does not prove your point because you are trying to justify the existence of a perk that turns off aura reading buy using 3 low tier aura perk of example so I don't think you have played both roles enough or understand dbd well enough.
I will only reply one more time because you still have not justified distortions existence which is what i keep bringing up
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Its only going to be a boom or bust decision if you throw all of the metaphorical eggs in 1 basket. Which is the point. Distortion only counters aura reading (and technically temporarily as it can run out) and does nothing else. We can't decide how you feel, but we don't ever feel like that so thats a person to person issue.
In reality, distortion will counter all of your aura reading if you don't bring about 3 aura perks, sometimes 2, or play a killer that can turn off their terror radius. The what you put in it to what you get out of the perk is wildly unbalanced.
Old distortions was a mid perk but it wasn't useless it just does not need the changes.
Languid touch is brought up because its an example of someone bringing something thats countered by another thing aka someone not bringing the right thing against the other side.
Languid touch im using as an example of a perk existing solely to counter other perks that are strong, its the direction i see the game going in and it's just lame.
Well safe is in itself boring no? If theres no risk theres no thrill and either someone takes a risk or no one gets thrills. While we'd like to see somethin like that, topic is diverging to far for our tastes here.
Distortion creates this scenario its kinda a big point
We believe there needs to be a balance of both. If its fully 1 or the other the game would probably die (how quickly we could argue all day), it needs both to a "healthy" extent (again, we can debate whats healthy till the sun burns out) to retain and attract its players.
True but a healthy balance does not mean an equal one. From what ive seen most people seem to agree that interaction with the killer is what they define as healthy, personally i don't think that's a fair way of putting it because you can have a OTR/DS player body blocking the killer then going down mid chase and that interaction or a nurse blitzing a lobby but a fair fight and interaction together is important and that kinda means stealth needs to be limited and chases need to be of primary importance.
We got many things to say but they are unnecessarily rude (and in this case do NOT want to find a more polite way to say them) so we are going to just say the following and leave it at that: you should probably find something you enjoy more.
Saying i could say something rude then not saying it is in and of itself rude.
also I enjoy dbd i just find faults with the game and I happen to have many games competing for my time the point is many players will be like this so saying "the game use to be worse" means nothing and should never be said especially when being better than the hot garbage this game use to be in hindsight is not a very high bar.
Well atleast your consistent on this part. Unfortunately it also is dependent on if its factual and not subjective for example we don't care about dealing with swfs as killer. What if thing A is bad to Survivor 1 but not Survivor 2 like here? If A is bad only to S1 but to S 2-4 its ok?
You seem to accept my subjective opinion right after this that
so I think a lot of the dbd community just cannot cope with a normal loss
Saying something is subjective is not a counterpoint just agree to disagree but don't say xyz is subjective as if its an argument because almost all balance opioons without an essay to back them up can be taken as subjective its why I'm having to overjustify basic's and i dont want to be rude but it is getting on my nerves.
Everything
canbecome a crutch but does not necessarily mean itis. (also "crutch" is defined as "a source or means of support or assistance that is relied on heavily or excessively"My personal view is that regardless of a perks strengths if running that perk by itself makes a specifc players preform disproportionality better than the average player gets out of the perk and they cannot compete as well without it even if the perk is "weak" which im not saying distorion is. It is a crutch for that player.
Like you said anything "can" be a crutch but its fair to say a disproportionate amount of players are crutched on windows compared to other perks.
Think of it like this. If they nerfed windows it would not be a thing I care about but for many players it would not just be a nerf to the perk it would feel like a nerf to them personally as a player as they can not preform to the levels they currently are preforming to without it. That means they crutched on windows in my view.
I know I'm crutched in sprint burst I always run the perk when I play suv its too good so if it was nerfed I would be a worse survivor for it because even if I would not just be a bad player overnight the crutch pushing me a little higher would be gone.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747183#Comment_3747183
Its the same way you deal with BBQ. The exact same way you have no problem with…
Locker-hopping works for BBQ for a very simple reason: You know when BBQ is coming.
You DON'T know when Floods of Rage, Darkness Revealed, or Ultimate Weapon are going to proc. So if you want to locker-dodge those, you're going to be spending the entire match in a locker, bud. Did you think this through?
It can only be used 6 times max and hook distribution plays a part in that potentially being lower and survivors determine when it gets set off, So I would be willing to let that be an exception.
6 times? How'd you get to that number?
Also, no: Survivors, plural, don't get to decide that. Someone on the team makes the unhook and the others have to deal with it happening. Unless they are a swiffer on comms, the others won't know.
And if your whole argument for justifying distortions existence is to say look at Floods of Rage, Darkness Revealed or Ultimate Weapon Your argument does not work its cooked all 3 of these perks are bad. Unless used on specific killers that synergise with them.
Are they bad, or do you not know how they work?
Also, Ultimate weapon does not reveal your aura, it is not an aura perk. I don't think you know what you are talking about this is waffle and does not make sense.
It did for about a month. I also clarified that it had already been nerfed.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747183#Comment_3747183
Its the same way you deal with BBQ.
This is how you know your argument is completely invalid.
BBQ has a very distinct tell. The killer picks up the survivor and it's very clear they're going to hook them. You can head to a locker when they pick up, and wait inside for a bit after they hook. This was literally meta before 6.1, so I've done this hundreds of times.
What do you honestly think the tell is for these other perks?
Am I just supposed to be psychic and know that the killer on the other side of the map is about to open a locker for darkness revealed?
Or just jump in a locker whenever you're in the terror radius to avoid ultimate weapon, since you still can't predict the like opening a locker. Or kicking a gen in the case of nowhere to hide.
Solo q is just screwed by floods of rage because there's literally no way to communicate that someone is 'unhooking now'.
These are nowhere near the 'same as BBQ'. Pretending they are means you either never play survivor, are being completely disingenuous, or possibly both at the same time.
I've replied to both of you in one post because i dont feel like splittng it also each quote is not in order so some of ampersandunderscores replies may be above or below Firellius and vice verse but im not going to reorder it all sorry.
I'd like to see you dodge Floods of Rage, Darkness Revealed or Ultimate Weapon, for example.
Words the line above or below stop saying "i said this" when you have not yet it was nerfed you mat have said that but we are clearly talking about the game as is so talk about it as is.
You DON'T know when Floods of Rage, Darkness Revealed, or Ultimate Weapon are going to proc. So if you want to locker-dodge those, you're going to be spending the entire match in a locker, bud. Did you think this through?
BBQ has a very distinct tell. The killer picks up the survivor and it's very clear they're going to hook them. You can head to a locker when they pick up, and wait inside for a bit after they hook. This was literally meta before 6.1, so I've done this hundreds of times.
You don't locker dodge them because you don't need to. It's really that simple they are not often used perks you so dont assume killers are using them that it. Why do you assume the killer has BBQ when you get in a locker. Because its used or their gameplay has indicated they have it.
Say if every time a huntress reloads (which is how darkness revealed is mostly used) if they start going towards someone near as if their aura is revealed you know what they have.
You also don't need to avoid your aura being seen all the time because they are not strong perks. It's really that simple.
These are nowhere near the 'same as BBQ'. Pretending they are means you either never play survivor, are being completely disingenuous, or possibly both at the same time.
You don't need to be able to counter the 3 darkness-revealed Ghostface players quing right now the ways its used make it obvious. (mainly by huntress and trickesters having you pull these examples that dont happen out of the hat makes me feel like bren
https://youtu.be/i3TWBPD1i5w?t=15Its more about the first part of his rant you dont need to account for all the uses on killer the perks are hot garbage on.
The theory does not matter if it never happens I'm sorry when it's used you can tell.
Solo q is just screwed by floods of rage because there's literally no way to communicate that someone is 'unhooking now'.
Lots of things screw over solo Q like regression as people cannot prevent other people gens from regressing as they dont know what gens people were on. Its such a well of things you would need to post for days to get the bottom of this well so lets not i know how it ends the best soloution against a perfect team becomes, to stack regression, slow down the game, and try to get a 3 gen as is the same against an unorganised team.
6 times? How'd you get to that number?
Each player can only be unhooked up to 2 times you can only get 6 procs because they cannot unhook a dead suv.
6 times is the max it can proc and you will likely get 4 or 5 if you play for it but if you are unlucky you may only get 1 or 2.
The perk is hot garbage when you consider not all the procs are useful as the unhooking suv sets it off so the killer does not always get it at a good time. For some killers like pyramid head its good on because the reveals translate into wallbangs but its a pretty trash perk on anyone else.
If a pyramid head hits a wallbang right after a unhook he likely has it then you need to play around it if you can. Most other killers its trash on and does not justify distrions existence because of how bad and situational it is
edit after all this i realised i typed 6 not 8 im a ######### moron but the point stands its garbage
typed 6
https://youtu.be/pYLw5OgKGuc -
A competitive game mode because i don't want to have to put up with the average random discord user.
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You're lucky I've just seen a spike in cheaters over the last few weeks.
My favourite was watching one rotate round a building as I did left and right while his aura was revealed (he did not have object) then I got them 3 games in a row.
I also saw someone with MFT that did not bring MFT (that was a sad game)
Some overcome players without the perk :(
The funniest thing was not my game tho i had a friend stream a game to me when he was on clown and the clown bottles did not slow down the survivors that was funny watching a intoxicated survivor gain distance.
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The knights being changed because he sucks to play against its not that deep.
People do not like playing against the knight and people don't like playing the singularity so they gave singularity something and are toying around with knight to see if something sticks.
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@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747092#Comment_3747092
Its not a bait. I think singularity changes way too much and it need to be adressed. But if its a bait to you whatever
nah man this has real survivor mains secret cabal meeting energy when read out loud
After patch 8.1.0 moves to the main game, the Singularity - already strong killer will receive huge buffs that no one asked for. Of course, in this state, he will be unbearable to play against. Therefore, for balance he needs to be weakened, in particular, the ability to control the map.
It's like lex luthor hosting a supervillain meeting
I needed to do this
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747163#Comment_3747163
You have not listed them say the boogiemen perks if saying
You could've just looked back through the thread to find the post I'm referring to, instead of doubling down.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745510#Comment_3745510
Having your aura revealed is completely fine as long as the conditions are foreseeable and there is no aura perk you cannot adjust to playing around within a regular game (without distortion)
I'd like to see you dodge Floods of Rage, Darkness Revealed or Ultimate Weapon, for example.
Yes, there may be no point to bring surge on Hillbilly or Nurse because they don't proc the perk but regression perks are stronger than aura perks. I'm not going to say that's my opinion because they just are.
With all due respect, if you're going to dig your heels in like this, there's no point in you talking on these forums.
You can say that is a decision I made but it is just true.
As evidenced by what?
You should have the ability to rotate around a rock when the killer is on the other side (its probably a point NTH goes a step to far)
Except it's not just NTH, is it?
But moveing away from something does not mean its abandoned it entirely.
That's the point I'm making with regards to Distortion. If you eliminate Distortion, it's not just 'moving away' from stealth. It's annihilating it in its entirety.
If you want the game to retain stealth, you're going to have to live with Distortion. If you want Distortion kneecapped, then you have to be honest and not hide the reality in flowery language.
Also also, you're failing to engage with the fact that Distortion is in the game and is therefor, itself, an argument against the game having 'moved away' from stealth.
That's the point I'm making with regards to Distortion. If you eliminate Distortion, it's not just 'moving away' from stealth. It's annihilating it in its entirety.
It is not.
I'd like to see you dodge Floods of Rage, Darkness Revealed or Ultimate Weapon, for example.
Its the same way you deal with BBQ. The exact same way you have no problem with…
Which works against BBQ & Chili, because the survivors get advance warning of when it is about to fire
Also you talking about Floods of rage -
The only one that has a condition that is -somewhat- outside the normal game loop is Floods of Rage, and that just depends on hook distribution.
It can only be used 6 times max and hook distribution plays a part in that potentially being lower and survivors determine when it gets set off, So I would be willing to let that be an exception.
And if your whole argument for justifying distortions existence is to say look at Floods of Rage, Darkness Revealed or Ultimate Weapon Your argument does not work its cooked all 3 of these perks are bad. Unless used on specific killers that synergise with them.
Also, Ultimate weapon does not reveal your aura, it is not an aura perk. I don't think you know what you are talking about this is waffle and does not make sense.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3747025#Comment_3747025
Name the perks.
I already did. You skipped it.
The same could be said when I use Nightlight to say regression and gen defense perks are way stronger than most killer perks but we all know it is just true.
Except apparently, it's not entirely true. Loads of people do still tend to pick up intel perks over extra regression perks, so no, they are not universally weaker than/stronger than.
Here is the argument i gave to rulebreaker i just did not want to type it again.
A quick breakdown of your argument:
A) You have no evidence that chases are what kept the game afloat all this time. That is a decision -you- made.
B) You, personally, not caring about stealth does not mean no one else does.
C) You act as though stealth and chase are mutually exclusive, as if Distortion makes it physically impossible for a survivor to be found, or to be chased. That's the case.
D) You claim that the game has 'moved away' from having stealth as an option, but that is clearly at odds with the fact that Distortion exists.
In short, you are projecting your personal opinion on the entirety of the game, you're thinking without nuance, and then you cherry pick parts of the game you like and call the rest 'broken'.
I already did. You skipped it.
You have not listed them say the boogiemen perks if saying
The only one that has a condition that is -somewhat- outside the normal game loop is Floods of Rage
and therefore i am assuming you have an issue with the rest of them like
friends to the end
Nurses calling
awakened awareness
Bitter murmur
lethal pursuer
Nowhere to hide
Darkness revealed
Gearhead
hex undying at a stretch
I'm sorry your wrong and I think you know that and are avoiding making a list like this because of it. I understand wanting to bring stuff like NTH in line but you are just wrong.
Having your aura revealed is completely fine as long as the conditions are foreseeable and there is no aura perk you cannot adjust to playing around within a regular game (without distortion)
Loads of people do still tend to pick up intel perks over extra regression perks, so no, they are not universally weaker than/stronger than.
They just are not.
Yes, there may be no point to bring surge on Hillbilly or Nurse because they don't proc the perk but regression perks are stronger than aura perks. I'm not going to say that's my opinion because they just are.
You have no evidence that chases are what kept the game afloat all this time. That is a decision -you- made.
It has a lot to do with licences to be honest, Rulebreaker was right about that but this game does not survive without the gameplay loop that was accidentally created from chases.
You can say that is a decision I made but it is just true.
You, personally, not caring about stealth does not mean no one else does
It has a place in the game i have said its less important I did not say its not something i care about, i play surviver do you think i just greed every gen and run up to every killer?
You should be able to lose someone in chase if they are not paying attention. You should have the ability to rotate around a rock when the killer is on the other side (its probably a point NTH goes a step to far) you should not be exempt from all aura reading.
You claim that the game has 'moved away' from having stealth as an option, but that is clearly at odds with the fact that Distortion exists.
This game use to primarily be about not being seen by the killer now it is about not being caught by the killer you say things like
You act as though stealth and chase are mutually exclusive, as if Distortion makes it physically impossible for a survivor to be found, or to be chased. That's the case.
But moveing away from something does not mean its abandoned it entirely.
Assassin's Creed has moved away from parkour being as important as in previous entries with Valhalla and Odyssey it doesn't mean when there is a building you just can every climb it.
But when an obvious condition is fulfilled with the aura perks I listed above you get your aura revealed.edit
Which works against BBQ & Chili, because the survivors get advance warning of when it is about to fire.
Also, this is just wrong you get no warning. You just know the condition because you think to counter the perk you can do the same thing with almost any other aura perk if they are being used to look for players.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746638#Comment_3746638
They have conditions!!!
The only one that has a condition that is -somewhat- outside the normal game loop is Floods of Rage, and that just depends on hook distribution. These conditions aren't weighty enough to justify removing a component of gameplay.
Also lockers exist.
Which works against BBQ & Chili, because the survivors get advance warning of when it is about to fire.
It doesn't work for any of the other perks.
They just are not as good as the actual good perks that slow the game down.
I don't think people agree with you, considering Nightlight registers Lethal Pursuer as third most picked perk, BBQ & Chili as 4th, and Nowhere to Hide as 6th. The only perks that beat out the first two are Pop and Pain Res, and the 5th place spot is taken by Corrupt Intervention. So it would seem that a lot of people are picking intel perks over regression perks.
BECAUSE IT HAS.
That's not the argument.
If you can claim that killer perks removing a bunch of survivor gameplay and perks is just 'the game going a direction', you're going to have to explain why that same logic does NOT apply to Distortion's impact on the game.
Name the perks.
Don't just say not floods of rage, name them.
I don't think people agree with you
The same could be said when I use Nightlight to say regression and gen defense perks are way stronger than most killer perks but we all know it is just true.
That's not the argument.
Here is the argument i gave to rulebreaker i just did not want to type it again.
The chase is the only reason this game has lived as long as it has. It may only be a part but it may as well be the whole thing because if dbd was a car the chase would be the engine, the seats, the wheels, and the frame while the stealth would be the windscreen wipers.
If chases stopped happening consistently because every stealth perk was buffed to the moon or every pallet or window got removed the game would die immediately. That's not an exaggeration
Then they made their point and this was my next reply
I'm not convinced this game survives without stumbling onto the gameplay loop it did with its chases (which was 100% accidental) If stealth was just erased from the game with basekit things that gave killers survivor locations every kinda like old Freddy on every killer (I'm coming up with the most ridiculous example that should never happen on purpose i don't actually think this should happen) I think the game would still have a player base, many players would leave but I don't think the game would die. Yea the windscreen wiper analogy may have been a bit extreme but honestly. I think it is true, the chase and stealth part of this game are not equally as important as each other
The game has leaned away from what it originally was and into the gameplay loop they accidentally created that has kept this game alive and replayable for years.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746672#Comment_3746672
The reason im poseing the question is it a crutch is because its shifting the responsibility of holding the chase to other players. Not every perk is a crutch but when you say.
Then by that reasoning not every perk is "broken" but when you say. From the other post:
What's strong is strong you can try and say dark theory is op and that is your right. You would be wrong.
You are not a reality warper whats broken is broken and whats weak is weak.
With that out of the way, let us ask a question: Why do players bring perks? We believe its to help them shore up weaknesses or facilitate a playstyle. In the vein of Distortion, it helps play stealthy. Some are better in chase and some are not and if not being caught makes them more efficient then Distortion helps. If by this describes a crutch to you, then every perk must follow.
So it kinda helps players play into lobbies they just are not good enough for.
As does the killer tunneling and survivors being carried by friends in a swf which don't necessarily require perks. If the survivor can survive and get out the door without being seen then that sorta proves they have enough skill in stealth to keep moving forward.
I know I started playing dbd in 2017 (see previous post to firellius) but just because it's better doesn't mean it's actually in a good state. I got a friend into dbd this year and he is a killer player who complains and lot every time I tell him it used to be worse he has a go at me and honestly, he is right.
Things being completely busted and games being decided by a single key or an object user with comms behind the great wall of azarovs doesn't justify the faults of the game as it is today.
Good is subjective. And this is going to give us weird flashbacks buuuuut: Whats good for you is not good for me and whats good for me is not good for senior bacon which one turn may not be good for whomever is next on the list. From what it sounds like you just want the game to change into your own version and don't care a lick that its improved from that mess in the past. We don't know if its true or not but keep in mind thats what it sounds like.
We're going to ignore the friend part as we don't have something we can say politely. (yes the above was our "polite")
The chase is the only reason this game has lived as long as it has. It may only be a part but it may as well be the whole thing because if dbd was a car the chase would be the engine, the seats, the wheels, and the frame while the stealth would be the windscreen wipers.
If chases stopped happening consistently because every stealth perk was buffed to the moon or every pallet or window got removed the game would die immediately. That's not an exaggeration.
We're of the thought that all the licences is whats kept the game goin. That aside no its not the only reason as there is a myriad of factors thats done the job. You may favor the chase and place the most importance on it, but you are not everyone and can't speek for everyone. Looking at previous posts of others shows that a decent number of players value using stealth. As for the car analogy, we'd say the chase is the engine and wheels while stealth would be the frame and body.
We do agree that if every stealth perk got buffed to obscene levels the game would start dying, but as it is theres none there and we haven't seen any plans of BHVR for it. It would be to the levels of survivors being practically invisible for chases to stop on a consistent basis.
You are giving the average killer player too much credit when put in the toughest of spots most will try and secure the 1k or 2k and won't shoot for the 4k. This may seem a bit cynical but its the way they are.
Also on both side even disregarding that this just leads to boring gameplay its not the result that really matters it the gameplay sucks it sucks.
We've seen all types over the years. Some surprise us others don't, but we do not know until we see. As for boring gameplay, thats how the game is. If the killer camps do you really expect survivors to just trade till death? The killer has to hunt them (which is another part of the game). And just so you know we're also not talking out our arse (and admittedly to show off alittle):
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YOBKOAH6928P/screenshot-2024-06-22-215743.png
When im talking about it Game by game. Build by build.
When the game becomes about hoping you have not brought the right stuff for what the other side has it will suck. Its why i keep banging the drum when everything gets too strong it becomes more about what you have and what its good into. That sucks it just sucks ass to play games like that.
But then does it not balance out since its on a case by case basis? Its never going to work or fail 100% of the time, nothing will. Also since theres many ways that someone didnt bring the right thing against the other side (healing against plauge, distortion against someone not using aura, lithe or DH against languid touch) we may think your playing somethin you dont like.
Because in the scenario we have come to they are doing it with 2 perks.
Thats not stopping them. Thats them having to go about it harder.
But then does it not balance out since its on a case by case basis? Its never going to work or fail 100% of the time, nothing will. Also since theres many ways that someone didnt bring the right thing against the other side (healing against plauge, distortion against someone not using aura, lithe or DH against languid touch) we may think your playing somethin you dont like.
It's never going to work or fail 100% of the time but what you bring should not be as boom or bust a decision. I do not want to feel like I should bring a different type of perk just because what's popular eviscerates a weaker perk everything should be useable and not just turned on and off by other perks.
You also brought up languid touch, all it does is give survivors exhaustion and this perk is seen as ok only because of how strong exhaustion perks are. That to me is a good indication that exhaustion perks are just too far ahead of the other survivor perk options.
I may have brought it up may not have in one of my pervious posts where I said some killers just deserve to be stronger than other killers but my opinion on Plague is she is too strong for what she is. Perks that synergise too well with her like thana and the fact that she as you stated counters a perk type just because she changes the mechanics make me not like the killer.
I think its a bit of a joke that a M1 basic attack killer that gives you info with loud sound notifications that cannot be missed, thats power is mechanically easier to use compared to every other killer that can down from range is allowed to be the strongest of those types of killers just because specific perks work too well on her. So although I think plague is bs I just want to see her nerfed, not ds canceling her power nerfed I just want to see her base power brought more in line with something like Slinger or the Cenobite.
And just so you know we're also not talking out our arse (and admittedly to show off alittle):
We are boomers :(
As for boring gameplay, thats how the game is. If the killer camps do you really expect survivors to just trade till death?
Yes but making the safest option the most boring one just kinda suck the fun out of the game. Personally, I think hooks should kill a little faster base but the higher the anti-camp meter is even if you don't get to unhook the slower the hook kills the survivor because i think forcing someone to die just sucks and I don't like the current solution which is to bring a perk like Reassurance
That still doesn't solve the issue of distortion essentially turning some perks off but I don't like camping being the most viable option ever, it's boring for everyone involved who is not taking pleasure in boring someone else.
As for the car analogy, we'd say the chase is the engine and wheels while stealth would be the frame and body.
I'm not convinced this game survives without stumbling onto the gameplay loop it did with its chases (which was 100% accidental) If stealth was just erased from the game with basekit things that gave killers survivor locations every kinda like old Freddy on every killer (I'm coming up with the most ridiculous example that should never happen on purpose i don't actually think this should happen) I think the game would still have a player base, many players would leave but I don't think the game would die. Yea the windscreen wiper analogy may have been a bit extreme but honestly. I think it is true, the chase and stealth part of this game are not equally as important as each other.
don't care a lick that its improved from that mess in the past.
Yeah because I don't just play dbd but the game is not competing with its past self it's competing with
-Xdefiant
-Elden ring
-Fallout New Vegas
-Europa Universalis 4
-Nioh
all games that I want to play more of and own, I imagine most players have their own game this applies to, hell it doesn't even have to be a game it can just be an activity they enjoy. It doesn't matter how it was it matters how it is my hours in dbd are not an investment in something that may or may not get better its time in a game, (time I'm about to have a lot less of because of life stuff, I'm just wring these posts in between job applications because I just finished uni) so if the game doesn't get better I will just stop playing when I have less time. Just because the game is in a better state than when it was a complete mess doesn't mean jack because that is such a low bar to pass.
As does the killer tunneling and survivors being carried by friends in a swf which don't necessarily require perks.
and all these things suck to deal with on the other side though.
say for example i say thing A is bad (and it is) and then you say thing B is bad and C as well it doesn't change that thing A is bad. Although I do think tunnelling is not as common as its made out to be, it's kinda the same with "bully squads" which i don't think can ever bully a killer of equivalent skill (the killer will win in that scenario) so I think a lot of the dbd community just cannot cope with a normal loss.With that out of the way, let us ask a question: Why do players bring perks? We believe its to help them shore up weaknesses or facilitate a playstyle. In the vein of Distortion, it helps play stealthy. Some are better in chase and some are not and if not being caught makes them more efficient then Distortion helps. If by this describes a crutch to you, then every perk must follow.
I don't think I said it clearly and concisely so I'm going to have another go at it.
Is a perk a crutch perk if it shifts the responsibility of the hardest part of the game onto a teammate?
Say if your teammates cannot hold chase you will probably lose, if they can you stand a good chance at winning, but it's taking some of the individual players who's using it, ability out of the equation and emphasising the importance of the ability of the other players in the lobby.
Does that make it a crutch or more liable to be used as a crutch?
The reason i am asking is because the way you described the perk make me think of this BUT I am self-conscious enough to know that i want to be convinced it is because
- I don't like the perk
- I don't use the perk much at all
so I am genuinely asking does this makes it a crutch?
But when you say
In the vein of Distortion, it helps play stealthy. Some are better in chase and some are not and if not being caught makes them more efficient then Distortion helps.
or
distortion helps those who are productive yet are terrible in chase
to me who thinks this
because as I said the game is the chase it is what players are judged on, and if nobody in the lobby can hold one you will lose no matter what because anyone can do gen whether they choose to is something else. Also, almost everyone who can hold a chase, even if they cannot vocalize an explanation for it, understands the macro game they just do it's not a difficult game conceptually
It sounds like the perk is to me.
But you keep answering a question with a question and not clearly saying it is or is not and why
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746151#Comment_3746151
If the pressure is off every surviver the killer then the survivers are gaining progress while the killer is gaining nothing. That is strong very strong.
And what is stopping the killer from going out and trying to pressure the survivors? If its a lack of aura reading then theres a problem with said killer as there was a time long ago that killers didn't have all these fancy perks that lit survivors up like Christmas lights. Many still did fine then without them.
It dose nothing that's why i keep saying it punishes the killer for using perks that are weaker a friend of mine played a game of wesker today streaming it to me in discord where in ran Pain res, Ruin, Brutal strength, and plaything. Every survivor had effectively 3 perks because he does not run aura reading.
And we keep thinking your either missing or ignoring the point. And also being a bit of a hypocrite here. First look at this part of what you said above: "If the pressure is off every surviver the killer then the survivers are gaining progress while the killer is gaining nothing. That is strong very strong."
Now read the next thing: "Every survivor had effectively 3 perks because he does not run aura reading."
….so how can something be strong and yet not do anything? The survivors there got nothin outta distortion while the killer was gaining progress.
Next is that no, it doesn't "punish" anyone. As we've said, perks are ment to shore up weaknesses (or compliment a playstyle but we didn't say this before). Some like the help aura reading gives, others don't, its the player's choice to run whatever they wish, and its never going to be perfect 100% of the time.
The chase is the game. yes there is a macro game to dbd but nobody respects a player for being good on gens or knowing when to camp. It is just not it and even your previous post seems to miss this point when you say
-[Insert our quote here]-
Offering the killers the choice of camping or playing the game with effectively 1 less perk, potentially 2 is not a good idea.
(they will camp lots of killers will always try and win no matter what)
The chase is a PART of the game, its not the whole game. If the survivors are good enough, can be entirely avoided. Most on dbd don't respect anyone, so we don't know what your expecting here. I'll say this though, I respect one who was able to be effective while stealthing more than the idiot who wanted my attention and going down in 10 seconds (the other 2 may vary). And as for the last 2 there, your trying to make the best out of your situation in this scenario. You may not think its a good idea but thats the way this works, and if they do camp, the aforementioned gens get finished without worry and off the rest go. And the ones that do hunt even if they can't see auras with their perks tend to do better overall than the camping ones from our experience.
I feel like people are misunderstanding this because they just are used to how strong the top tier of stuff is.
We can't speak for everyone but we were here when there was instant-repair-BNP, instant-up medkits, infinites, exhaustion recovering while running, Dribbling DS, Original DH, Omega nurse, moon walking legions, and things such as those. Those were "broken" to us. Many things currently are strong but not like that. Things like distortion compared to THOSE are laughable.
Most of the best perks are broken imo.
Hey~ You finally admitted it your opinions and not undeniable facts, we're proud. 👏 I know we poked the bait, so we'll admit fault to that, if you want us to reply to the stuff below regarding the next 4 paragraphs we will, but on a different thread as we'll completely derail the topic here otherwise.
You said
Perks are ment to shore up your weaknessesbut can you really say that avoiding being found and letting someone else take all the pressure is just shoring up a weakness or is it significantly impacting the match?
Honestly? Yes. Its dependent on the situation as there are matches where someone is using it to hide while being unproductive. There are also those who use it so that they can remain productive by not having the killer come to their gen or intercept their incoming rescue/hex breaking/whatever. People can also run distortion and attempt to take agro anyway, its just harder. Overall, its a person problem not a perk problem. And as Firellius has repeatedly pointed out, theres 4 survivors total. Its not just 1 person taking all the pressure most times (bar tunneling).
to me, this comes across as describing a crutch ( im not saying its your crutch but I'm saying perks like this are crutches) because as I said the game is the chase it is what players are judged on, and if nobody in the lobby can hold one you will lose no matter what because anyone can do gen whether they choose to is something else. Also, almost everyone who can hold a chase, even if they cannot vocalize an explanation for it, understands the macro game they just do it's not a difficult game conceptually.
Then literally every perk is a crutch. In fact, technically speaking yes, every perk is a crutch as everyone relies on them for help. And we're going to repeat that chase is a part of the game not the whole thing. If you can keep the killer in the area looking for you and never be seen, your burning more of their time and can keep being productive when the killer fs off rather than the idiot whos going down in 30 seconds or less.
"Also, almost everyone who can hold a chase, even if they cannot vocalize an explanation for it, understands the macro game they just do it's not a difficult game conceptually."
….and who exactly cares? This isn't to be completely rude as its a genuine question cause even if you can hold chase for minutes, if the killer finds and decides to target someone who cant chase, what good is it? The killer aint goin after you, your teammates are going to be dying much sooner unless they're able to hide, but they're having a much harder time cause distortion got hit by the nerf bat (…or knowing the history of this game, possibly the hammer). The macro (we're assuming this means the gens as your rather vague on what you mean by "Macro") may not be difficult but if no one does it then survivors can't get out.
Then literally every perk is a crutch. In fact, technically speaking yes, every perk is a crutch as everyone relies on them for help.
The reason im poseing the question is it a crutch is because its shifting the responsibility of holding the chase to other players. Not every perk is a crutch but when you say.
distortion helps those who are productive yet are terrible in chase.
It sounds like it is a perk that is more of a crutch than other perks because productivity not really that much of a skill because as i said previously
as I said the game is the chase it is what players are judged on, and if nobody in the lobby can hold one you will lose no matter what because anyone can do gen whether they choose to is something else. Also, almost everyone who can hold a chase, even if they cannot vocalize an explanation for it, understands the macro game they just do it's not a difficult game conceptually.
So it kinda helps players play into lobbies they just are not good enough for.
and who exactly cares? This isn't to be completely rude as its a genuine question cause even if you can hold chase for minutes, if the killer finds and decides to target someone who cant chase,
Players in the lobby care. Also, it just sucks to have to carry someone else's weight especially because even when you hold a killer for ages you are very likely to be sacrificed because the ego-chaseing killer is offended at the idea a survivor has run them. Yes this is partially on killers but perks are easier to change than attuide and I don't think the ego-chasing killer who wants his 1k is ever-changing their mind.
I was working my way up your post not down it so I think this quote is a relevant point where we disagree but i only saw it after writing the last paragraph and I dont want to rewrite it in
Overall, its a person problem not a perk problem.
Because I don't think you can fix the issue with the players but you can with the perk.
Hey~ You finally admitted it your opinions and not undeniable facts, we're proud.
We are taking about dbd balanced its all opinions like i said at the start though
What's strong is strong you can try and say dark theory is op and that is your right. You would be wrong.
And a lot of the "its not strong that's why i use it all the time" players are coping that may not be something I can prove but it is true we all know it. In the same way we know Sprint burst is a strong perk we don't need to qualify everything with imo imo.
We can't speak for everyone but we were here when there was instant-repair-BNP, instant-up medkits, infinites, exhaustion recovering while running, Dribbling DS, Original DH, Omega nurse, moon walking legions, and things such as those. Those were "broken" to us. Many things currently are
strongbut not likethat.Things like distortion compared to THOSE are laughable.I know I started playing dbd in 2017 (see previous post to firellius) but just because it's better doesn't mean it's actually in a good state. I got a friend into dbd this year and he is a killer player who complains and lot every time I tell him it used to be worse he has a go at me and honestly, he is right.
Things being completely busted and games being decided by a single key or an object user with comms behind the great wall of azarovs doesn't justify the faults of the game as it is today.
The chase is a PART of the game, its not the whole game. If the survivors are good enough, can be entirely avoided.
The chase is the only reason this game has lived as long as it has. It may only be a part but it may as well be the whole thing because if dbd was a car the chase would be the engine, the seats, the wheels, and the frame while the stealth would be the windscreen wipers.
If chases stopped happening consistently because every stealth perk was buffed to the moon or every pallet or window got removed the game would die immediately. That's not an exaggeration.
You may not think its a good idea but thats the way this works, and if they do camp, the aforementioned gens get finished without worry and off the rest go.
You are giving the average killer player too much credit when put in the toughest of spots most will try and secure the 1k or 2k and won't shoot for the 4k. This may seem a bit cynical but its the way they are.
Also on both side even disregarding that this just leads to boring gameplay its not the result that really matters it the gameplay sucks it sucks.
….so how can something be strong and yet not do anything? The survivors there got nothin outta distortion while the killer was gaining progress.
When im talking about it Game by game. Build by build.
When the game becomes about hoping you have not brought the right stuff for what the other side has it will suck. Its why i keep banging the drum when everything gets too strong it becomes more about what you have and what its good into. That sucks it just sucks ass to play games like that.
I don't know if you play it so this may be a bad example but it's why counter-swapping becoming too important killed my enjoyment of overwatch, I don't want to be punished or rewarded for choosing to use specific perks rather than being published for misplaying or misusing my tools.
And what is stopping the killer from going out and trying to pressure the survivors?
Because in the scenario we have come to they are doing it with 2 perks.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745771#Comment_3745771
Saying there are other players to go for therefore distortion is ok doesn't work because if say 2 players have to take all the pressure because the killer is running something like bbq and lethal and he just wants to take the shortest route they will ping pong between them, the best way to win right now easily is to ping pong between 2 players on a lot of killers it is not good.
A) The killer doesn't need Distortion to do that. Excessive aura reading is a great tool for tunnelling, with or without Distortion.
B) This is, again, the paradigm shift, where the killer is apparently entitled to have access to a survivor's exact location 24/7. Any disruption to this then suddenly becomes the survivor's fault, rather than the fault of perks that are obviously overtuned.
C) This is a user problem, not a perk problem. No amount of Distortion is going to allow you to ignore me if I'm on 0 chases and my teammates are on death hook.
Do you just have a problem with perks that reveal you?
I have a problem with perks that completely disable the opportunity for stealth. BBQ & Chili doesn't, nor does I'm All Ears. But the newer perks all lobotomise gameplay and have created a new baseline, and now when a perk defies that new baseline, -it- takes the brunt of the complaints, rather than the perks that powercreeped out the wazoo.
The game has gone in a direction
So when killers get new perks that invalidate an entire survivor playstyle and a large number of perks, the game has simply 'gone in a direction'…
But when survivors get a perk that restores that playstyle and weakens a large number of perks, that's 'broken' and 'making the game worse', and it's existence is 'not justifiable'?
This is, again, the paradigm shift, where the killer is apparently entitled to have access to a survivor's exact location 24/7. Any disruption to this then suddenly becomes the survivor's fault, rather than the fault of perks that are obviously overtuned.
They have conditions!!!
BBQ doesn't show people within 40m and only procs after an unhook. The only 2 I concede should have changes have conditions that are too easy to activate ie kick a gen for nth or lethal but even then lethal is a bit of a one trick pony perk and the only actual issue i have with it is the 4 second extension potentially breaking future perk.
I don't think you have even considered their conditions and just see them as free. #
Also lockers exist.
They just are not as good as the actual good perks that slow the game down.
Friends til the end is nowhere near S tier it's not even A tier, same with BBQ,
Yes their is a paradigm shift and the game has change but they are also just not as good and none of them justify a perk like distortion. Both of these things are trueI have a problem with perks that completely disable the opportunity for stealth. BBQ & Chili doesn't, nor does I'm All Ears. But the newer perks all lobotomise gameplay and have created a new baseline
So nth the thing I said I understand nerfing and lethal are the "newer perks"
But nothing else applies Friend til the end is not good and…. that's is really it.
You need to specifically say the perks because to my mind these aura boogiemen perks don't exist.
So when killers get new perks that invalidate an entire survivor playstyle and a large number of perks, the game has simply 'gone in a direction'
BECAUSE IT HAS.
when I started playing dbd on October 28th 2017. It was a different game.
also name these aura boogiemen perks that don't exist.
Even with NTH and Lethal distortions existence is not justified making every aura perk not work on you is a bad perk and its sucks to play against and sucks to play with people using maliciously.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3746027#Comment_3746027
But since the pressure is off of everyone doesn't that make Distortion ok? And since theres a way for everyone to ignore most aura reading if they're careful, whats the problem of having a perk that simplifies having to dodge readings? Survivors don't always need to hold killers in chase for making progress. A killer to be able to hunt them down, if the killer requires aura reading to do that then thats their own problem. Survivors only need to keep the killer busy so the gens get finished or everyone else is dead for a last chance attempt at doors or hatch. It does not matter how the killer is kept busy. You roll the dice on a build, sometimes its just unlucky.
Its why the perk is just strong.
If the killer brings no aura reading, what happens?
Also if we recall correctly, you called distortion "broken" in another thread~ [We really cant help but poke this bait]
Also, it is pushing people to play around their teammate's perks when the game does not tell you what your team is running, and even then it's not nice to be forced to play a slower match to accommodate for your teammate who won't take any pressure.
Not really. Dbd has been a simple concept. Throw 4 people in a box with something that wants to kill them, give the 4 ways out, add in perks and powers for spice, and see what happens. Perks are ment to shore up your weaknesses, and distortion helps those who are productive yet are terrible in chase. You don't need to accommodate anyone but yourself (or if your feeling generous, your friends in a SWF) as trying to always accommodate random others is a certain failure.
But since the pressure is off of everyone doesn't that make Distortion ok?
If the pressure is off every surviver the killer then the survivers are gaining progress while the killer is gaining nothing. That is strong very strong.
If the killer brings no aura reading, what happens?
It dose nothing that's why i keep saying it punishes the killer for using perks that are weaker a friend of mine played a game of wesker today streaming it to me in discord where in ran Pain res, Ruin, Brutal strength, and plaything. Every survivor had effectively 3 perks because he does not run aura reading.
It's why I keep saying when perks keep getting stronger it becomes more about what you bring and how good it is than what the other side brings.
Perks are ment to shore up your weaknesses, and distortion helps those who are productive yet are terrible in chase.
The chase is the game. yes there is a macro game to dbd but nobody respects a player for being good on gens or knowing when to camp. It is just not it and even your previous post seems to miss this point when you say
The killer is then left with no one popping up, and either camps, which gives everyone else time to pop the gens and escape, or goes off to find people the old fashioned way and the game goes on as normal
Offering the killers the choice of camping or playing the game with effectively 1 less perk, potentially 2 is not a good idea.
(they will camp lots of killers will always try and win no matter what)
Also if we recall correctly, you called distortion "broken" in another thread~ [We really cant help but poke this bait]
I feel like people are misunderstanding this because they just are used to how strong the top tier of stuff is.
Most of the best perks are broken imo. The "meta" has only ever changed when a perk completely busted like old MFT came out, regression has always been the best type of killer perk ever since old pop came out and ruins rework.
so yeah distortion is broken, pop is broken, sprint burst is broken even surge is broken because as long as pop and pain res exist at their current level excess regression is broken. (its why i think diminishing returns are needed on these perks or pop and pain res need to be gutted because they break other perks)
Honestly, resurgence, the perk they are buffing, in its pre buff state is what I think is a good benchmark for what the average strong perk should be. It's impactful and helpful but its not likly to define your match in the way sprint burst will
an example on the killer side is brutal strength it's clearly a useful perk it gets me hit but its not by itself going to keep a gen up like pain res will that will have the knock-on effect of winning me the match, or completely halt survivor momentum when i start downing in quick succession putting the game out of reach of the survivors.
You said
Perks are ment to shore up your weaknesses
but can you really say that avoiding being found and letting someone else take all the pressure is just shoring up a weakness or is it significantly impacting the match?
Edit
Also
distortion helps those who are productive yet are terrible in chase.
to me, this comes across as describing a crutch ( im not saying its your crutch but I'm saying perks like this are crutches) because as I said the game is the chase it is what players are judged on, and if nobody in the lobby can hold one you will lose no matter what because anyone can do gen whether they choose to is something else. Also, almost everyone who can hold a chase, even if they cannot vocalize an explanation for it, understands the macro game they just do it's not a difficult game conceptually.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745771#Comment_3745771
Saying there are other players to go for therefore distortion is ok doesn't work because if say 2 players have to take all the pressure because the killer is running something like bbq and lethal and he just wants to take the shortest route they will ping pong between them, the best way to win right now easily is to ping pong between 2 players on a lot of killers it is not good.
In this case, couldn't atleast 1 of the 2 without distortion also hide? For example, one gets hooked, sees the killer B lining for the other, gets unhooked, and as soon as the other goes down, books it to a locker, which blocks aura reading. The killer is then left with no one popping up, and either camps, which gives everyone else time to pop the gens and escape, or goes off to find people the old fashioned way and the game goes on as normal.
Yes but then multiple aura perks are essentially disabled and that is part of why they are so weak compared to the other perk types and as a killer it feels like survivors are making progress without needing to hold you in chase while you have 1 or 2 less tools than you would have if you just brought a stronger build. Its why the perk is just strong.
Also, it is pushing people to play around their teammate's perks when the game does not tell you what your team is running, and even then it's not nice to be forced to play a slower match to accommodate for your teammate who won't take any pressure.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745248#Comment_3745248
say actual perks
say the perks
Say the perks. There are none.
You already mentioned Nowhere to Hide, Lethal Pursuer, and Floods of Rage. You correctly identified that I'm All Ears is NOT one of the problem perks as it serves a different function. There's also Weave Attunement and Friends 'Til the End. Ultimate Weapon can also be counted, though it has already been solidly nerfed, but then also retains its problematic aspect.
If these perks were not problems, Distortion wouldn't be, either.
Almost all these aura perks are at the level of power other perks should be at Floods of rage, friends to the end and alien instinct are at the average level that a perk should be.
No, they aren't. They are disabling a wide swath of survivor perks, killing off a playstyle, and automatically completing a task for the killer, and no, none of them have a requirement high enough to justify it.
In reality, they are simply too strong. BBQ & Chili is in a good spot, still strong enough to warrant picking up, but it doesn't come close to its newer cousins in terms of impact, as BBQ is specifically designed NOT to completely trivialise the task of finding survivors.
These killer perks are amputating a part of the game. Distortion merely restores it.
Distortion however doesn't just counter those perks like an overwatch hero with a good matchup it prevents them from being used on you
Yes, on YOU specifically. Distortion has to be picked by all four in order for these perks to be truly and fully countered. One Distortion doesn't do that. It weakens it, sure, but it doesn't block the entire perk.
And if you pick more than one aura reading perk, the problem described before gets intensified, and will need a counter even more. Additionally, if all your perks are tailored towards one specific goal, you run the risk of that goal being undermined. No different than running a full swath of healing perks into a Plague or Legion.
Yeah, it sucks. But it's how the game fundamentally works. Varied builds don't run these risks.
No people assumed like you that i did not want them nerfed…
No, people assumed that you didn't -care-.
Yes, on YOU specifically. Distortion has to be picked by all four in order for these perks to be truly and fully countered. One Distortion doesn't do that. It weakens it, sure, but it doesn't block the entire perk.
Saying there are other players to go for therefore distortion is ok doesn't work because if say 2 players have to take all the pressure because the killer is running something like bbq and lethal and he just wants to take the shortest route they will ping pong between them, the best way to win right now easily is to ping pong between 2 players on a lot of killers it is not good.
You already mentioned Nowhere to Hide, Lethal Pursuer, and Floods of Rage. You correctly identified that I'm All Ears is NOT one of the problem perks as it serves a different function. There's also Weave Attunement and Friends 'Til the End. Ultimate Weapon can also be counted, though it has already been solidly nerfed, but then also retains its problematic aspect.
Do you just have a problem with perks that reveal you?
The game has gone in a direction where if they don't they would be useless im never going to be running wispers or spies ever over something like surge, pain res, deadlock or even brutal strength. Edit (NTH is the exception its out of line with the other aura perks i want it nerfed)
The game has gone in a direction where looking for players is secondary to chasing them so as long as you fulfil the condition, you get aura.
Distortion existence in its current state makes the game worse for the people who are not using it and for killer using the perks in counters furthering the gap between the detection perks and the top perks its existence is not justifiable within this context.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3745147#Comment_3745147
Its because nobody is arguing with me that pop and pain res should not be nerfed.
Well, they couldn't. Not -before- you placed your opening post. Your opening post set the topic of discussion, and it put a magnifying glass on the survivors' stuff.
Your tone was very disinterested when it came to the killer perks. Barely a mention. People are going to assume that what you want to talk about is the thing you actually do talk about.
If you want my take on pop and pain res it's that they need to be gutted. Minor nerfs will lead to killers still stacking them together as they do if they are left as the best 2 perks in the game.
I don't think I even agree with you on that. I think Pop and Pain Res are acceptable, just not with the numbers they had.
Running aura perks into distortion is pointless never can one player use 2 distortions while a killer can run 2 aura perks.
But that is only if you are exclusively considering the 1v1. When you are considering the match as a whole, unless all four survivors are running Distortion, your aura perks will still do their job. It may be more restrictive, but they won't be 'pointless'.
Again, too, Distortion is protecting a lot of survivor perks from hitting this same wall.
I know, Its why I want all of the stuff that is being used to makeup that beatstick nerfed on both killer and survivor.
Except the stuff that's actually a problem seemed to fly under your radar, in favour of significantly less obnoxious perks.
They changed with the game. The game went from having perks that revealed you for free like whispers but didn't give the whole game away to perks that show your location when conditions were fulfilled as the game became less about hiding and more about chases.
It feels like you're appealing to a sort of organic shift in the game's playstyle as a justification for the existence of the newer aura perks, but I have to mirror that to Distortion. Why is the aura reading powercreep an organic change, but not Distortion?
It's not just about that being punished disproportionately for running slightly weaker builds if the survivors use distortion feels bad, it's very rare but the few times I've play a game with 2 aura perks and went ah well I have half a build because I ran into 4 people using it sucks.
Okay? That's kind of the nature of the game. We can't use this reason to kneecap killers like Wraith, Myers, Plague and Legion, either.
If you want to nerf Distortion, one of the ways to do it is by harshly nerfing the aura reading perks that make it function. Distortion is ultimately a counter-perk, and if it has nothing to counter, it won't be picked up. Currently though, aura reading is popular and extremely effective, meaning that Distortion, despite its flakiness, is an appealing pick for a lot of players.
In short, Distortion wouldn't be a problem if these killer perks didn't amputate a solid chunk of DBD's gameplay.
but it also leans into that part of the game I have previously said about where what you bring becomes more important the more powerful things are because if the killer goes all out with 4 slowdowns the perk does nothing and outperking people just becomes more prevalent.
And I agree with you on that, to a degree. What I disagree with is that the blame gets placed on Distortion here. Distortion has no innate value, and is ultimately reflective of the prevalence and power of the perks it counters. As they go up, so does Distortion.
In short: If Distortion is a problem, something's wrong with killer perks. Not with Distortion.
If you want to nerf Distortion, one of the ways to do it is by harshly nerfing the aura reading perks that make it function.
nerfing nth or lethal is not nerfing distortion and I'm on the boat with doing both beyond that what are you going to suggest nerfing?
say actual perks because even I struggle to see many that need it.
It feels like you're appealing to a sort of organic shift in the game's playstyle as a justification for the existence of the newer aura perks, but I have to mirror that to Distortion. Why is the aura reading powercreep an organic change, but not Distortion?
say the perks, floods of rage? Im all ears I can get behind just because of how it works on nurse but that's not about detection it's related to chase so im not sure thats what you are talking about.
In short, Distortion wouldn't be a problem if these killer perks didn't amputate a solid chunk of DBD's gameplay.
Say the perks. Type xyz perk is op and justifies distortions existence or something along those lines.
There are none.
Almost all these aura perks are at the level of power other perks should be at Floods of rage, friends to the end and alien instinct are at the average level that a perk should be.
Distortion has no innate value, and is ultimately reflective of the prevalence and power of the perks it counters. As they go up, so does Distortion.
Distortion however doesn't just counter those perks like an overwatch hero with a good matchup it prevents them from being used on you the more of them the killer has the stronger it is unless your aura is being revealed 247 at which point they have brought a bad build.
edit forgot to say this
Well, they couldn't. Not -before- you placed your opening post. Your opening post set the topic of discussion, and it put a magnifying glass on the survivors' stuff.
Your tone was very disinterested when it came to the killer perks. Barely a mention. People are going to assume that what you want to talk about is the thing you actually do talk about.
No people assumed like you that i did not want them nerfed… and that i was someone throwing a stone in a glass house by calling out someone's attuited to survivor perks vs killer perks
Also it just takes more posts to explain why the suv perks need to be nerfed because the best suv perks dont share many properties like the best killer perks do when it comes to keeping gens up.
Exhaustions strength has nothing to do with distortion which also has nothing to do with OTR for example but pop, pain res and even perks like deadlock do the same thing in different ways (keep specific gens in play)
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744824#Comment_3744824
The fact that I have the opinion perks are generally too strong at the top end (so are addons and items but eh) want almost all the top survivor and killer perks nerfed and brought back in line and I have seen people go "you want to nerf suv stuff" and even the person i have argued the point with for a few days now back and forth says "i can see how they see you as an entitled killer main" in actually kinda insane
You are putting considerably more effort into telling people that you have stated this than in actually stating it. You made two throw-away remarks in a thread in which you detailed all of the survivor stuff you want nerfed.
If you come in, guns blazing, shouting that [A], [B] and [C] MUST be nerfed and people should STOP defending such BROKEN things, and then mutter under your breath that you'd be okay if [D] and [E] got nerfed as well, people are going to infer where your priorities lie.
Which in and of itself is not that much of a problem, it's daily routine on these forums. But I find it ironic that you label someone else an 'entitled [role] main' when you exude the exact same aura.
Partially true
No, completely true.
its silly making aura perks a choice to be effected by only exaserbates the issue.
I don't think it's that silly, because these perks have powercrept beyond control. Not to mention that the issue works reversed, too. Lots of survivor perks that deal with stealth become irrelevant in the face of these aura reading perks. Think Iron Will, Lightfooted, Fixated, Self-Preservation, just to name a few. All of these are undone by aura reading and now effectively require Distortion to function with any kind of reliability. Which in turn might shunt them to gen-rush or hook-denial perks.
For once, survivors can use the same beatstick as killers: 'We can -also- make the game worse for everyone'.
Sometimes having 1 with 3 regression/blocking perks is better than a fourth
That's what I said.
Keeping bad gens up and good gen spread translates into downs
Though judging by how the forums are treating Distortion, how are you going to be able to find survivors if they're not permanently highlighted in neon red?
Replying coz england drew :(
You are putting considerably more effort into telling people that you have stated this than in actually stating it. You made two throw-away remarks in a thread in which you detailed all of the survivor stuff you want nerfed.
If you come in, guns blazing, shouting that [A], [B] and [C] MUST be nerfed and people should STOP defending such BROKEN things, and then mutter under your breath that you'd be okay if [D] and [E] got nerfed as well, people are going to infer where your priorities lie.
Which in and of itself is not that much of a problem, it's daily routine on these forums. But I find it ironic that you label someone else an 'entitled [role] main' when you exude the exact same aura.
Its because nobody is arguing with me that pop and pain res should not be nerfed.
Thats it eveyone is just jumping to defend the other sets of perks right now.
Its just as simple as that
This is the only comment that has questioned it. The only comment and it was posted 2 days after my original post
If I stretch it this may count but they just seem to disagree with the general opinion I have that things are too strong.
If you want my take on pop and pain res it's that they need to be gutted. Minor nerfs will lead to killers still stacking them together as they do if they are left as the best 2 perks in the game.
They are as far out of line with other regression perks as sprint burst is with exhaustion perks and more generally I think a mechanic like regression needs some form of limit like exhaustion perks have with the exhaustion status effect that limits how many you can run or forces some form of diminishing returns.
I personally think that killers being able to proc to many in quick succession will always lead to 3 gening being too prevalent as being able to keep gens up in unsafe locations will always translate into downs making them better than any other type of perk on the roster.
But because I haven't had to defend that take I've said less about it because I'm replying to people I only bring up what i think I need to not write.
Also
Running aura perks into distortion is pointless never can one player use 2 distortions while a killer can run 2 aura perks. Its just naturally weighted in the survivors favour unless the killer runs 0 aura then what does it become replaced by, slowdown regression ect. It's a perk in a fundamentally bad spot.
survivors can use the same beatstick as killers: 'We can -also- make the game worse for everyone'.
I know, Its why I want all of the stuff that is being used to makeup that beatstick nerfed on both killer and survivor.
I don't think it's that silly, because these perks have powercrept beyond control.
They changed with the game. The game went from having perks that revealed you for free like whispers but didn't give the whole game away to perks that show your location when conditions were fulfilled as the game became less about hiding and more about chases. Yes the powercrept the previous perks but the regression perk's power creep is more subtle as they get stronger with every other regression perk despite individual nerfs.
Though judging by how the forums are treating Distortion, how are you going to be able to find survivors if they're not permanently highlighted in neon red?
It's not just about that being punished disproportionately for running slightly weaker builds if the survivors use distortion feels bad, it's very rare but the few times I've play a game with 2 aura perks and went ah well I have half a build because I ran into 4 people using it sucks.
but it also leans into that part of the game I have previously said about where what you bring becomes more important the more powerful things are because if the killer goes all out with 4 slowdowns the perk does nothing and outperking people just becomes more prevalent.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3744363#Comment_3744363
This is not a people in glass houses statement because on my post about people defending op perks where I clearly stated a lot of killer perks I want to be nerfed they made this post
You are vehemently campaigning to have everything that still gets used by survivors, the statistically weaker role, nerfed.
Ostensibly for the sake of perk diversity, but you seem unwilling to entertain the idea of buffing the underpicked.
You accuse others of being 'entitled [Role] mains', and I'm just telling you that you fit the bill too.
but the power creep in this game does not apply to aura perk more than others
That's not relevant to Distortion though. Power creep in one facet of killer gameplay is not made okay by power creep in another facet of killer gameplay.
It does not completely make's the perks it counters irrelevant without any real condition the killer has control over.
This is also something that is often misunderstood. Distortion doesn't negate an aura reading perk by itself. One person having Distortion does not fully disable your NTH, FoR, UW or any other aura reading. It just protects one survivor.
You need four distortions to make these perks irrelevant.
It's like if languid touch or any exhaustion infliction perk did not have a requirement.
The aura perks that have pushed Distortion into viability don't exactly have stringent requirements themselves.
It's overpowered
That's an interesting take, considering most others are saying it causes more losses.
disproportionately effects killers running weaker builds
-Everything- disproportionately affects weaker killers running weaker builds, that's part and parcel of the term 'weaker'.
Also, I wouldn't say that the aura reading perks are strictly weaker. Never having to search for a survivor is pretty strong and can probably compete with some regression picks, especially since it only really needs to compete with the fourth one down the list.
You are vehemently campaigning to have everything that still gets used by survivors, the statistically weaker role, nerfed.
Ostensibly for the sake of perk diversity, but you seem unwilling to entertain the idea of buffing the underpicked.
You accuse others of being 'entitled [Role] mains', and I'm just telling you that you fit the bill too.
You are all in a bubble and sometimes when you are part of a bubble you don't realise how the bubble looks from the outside, the forums is not known for being the place you go to for sensible dbd takes for this reason most players are in their bubble and when they are confronted with an opinion about the game that is just different from theirs's it must be from them the other side.
It may seem ironic coming from "unused killer name" but its just how it is.
The fact that I have the opinion perks are generally too strong at the top end (so are addons and items but eh) want almost all the top survivor and killer perks nerfed and brought back in line and I have seen people go "you want to nerf suv stuff" and even the person i have argued the point with for a few days now back and forth says "i can see how they see you as an entitled killer main" in actually kinda insane
if you can call for 8 of the top 10 used killer perks (and there is, even more, I would nerf past that) to being nerfed in a thread and still get that it's mental.
This is also a good microcosm of why a lot of people think the forums are a bit of a dumpster fire you are either in the bubble or in the mental killer and suv camp.
This is also something that is often misunderstood. Distortion doesn't negate an aura reading perk by itself. One person having Distortion does not fully disable your NTH, FoR, UW or any other aura reading. It just protects one survivor.
You need four distortions to make these perks irrelevant.
Partially true but distortion makes whole perks irrelevant my favorate build to run right now is wesker with BBQ, Pain Res, Brutal Strength and Lethal Pursuer a strong build but could make it stronger by dropping lethal for pop most perks without both pop and pain res are like this and its silly making aura perks a choice to be effected by only exaserbates the issue.
and yes distortion is op but you know what my view on op is no point is arguing that point we have already done so people using who don't know when they need to do what they need to do are just more annoying that with other perks
Also, I wouldn't say that the aura reading perks are strictly weaker. Never having to search for a survivor is pretty strong and can probably compete with some regression picks, especially since it only really needs to compete with the fourth one down the list
It doesn't. Sometimes having 1 with 3 regression/blocking perks is better than a fourth but none are better.
Keeping bad gens up and good gen spread translates into downs, playing in weaker areas and less time burnt just crossing the map. Their are just so many things about the fundamentals of dbd that make regression perks the best perks in the game.sorry no more replies today England are on and its coming home.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743583#Comment_3743583
Conversely, you can get a downward spiral with nerf-creep. You nerf SB, Lithe takes over. You nerf Lithe, Balanced Landing takes over. You nerf BL, maybe you'll get Smash Hit. And then that will need to be nerfed.
'There will always be a Draco'.
It's all well and good to want all the survivor perks to be on a somewhat level field, and I agree with that. But considering the sorry state that survivor gameplay is in right now, stomping on the top is going to make the game worse overall, and it's not going to make any of the other perks start to function.
say for example smash hit an earlier example of a perk that is good against some killers more than others, if you buff the effects to compete at the same level with sprint burst which is a very consistent perk the killers that is better against feel its more so than the killers than its worse against.
I get your concern here, but that just means the devs need to get more creative with the way they intend to buff it. NOT nerf all alternatives. (And then subsequently nerfing Smash Hit because it is now in the position SB/Lithe was in)
the only way possible to create perk variety is through nerfs
That is objectively not true.
Nerf-creep has never made me not play a game (some people will have quit games when stuff they used got nerfed) but never have i left a game because "everything just got to weak"
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3740642#Comment_3740642
When they use distortion they are using you to save their skin at the expense of yours.
They don't need Distortion for that.
In fact, Distortion makes them -less- of a problem in that regard. Someone using this playstyle without Distortion will be stuck in a locker for most of the match. WITH Distortion, they may at least work on gens or heal someone, even if they don't take chases.
Based on how you typed this you are, and I hate to type this you seem to be an
"entitled survivor main"as much of a meme as that sentence is.People in glass houses…
when this is how chapter releases that add perks to the game work across the board.
Here's the thing you're missing: Aura perks have had a massive amount of power creep. Up until Floods of Rage, the primary aura reading perk in the game was BBQ & Chili. Now, BBQ & Chili has a very particular design element to it: It does not reveal survivors that are too close. The reason for this is because, as an intel perk, BBQ was supposed to direct the killer to where to look, not to find the survivors for them.
But that's gone out of the window now, with Floods of Rage, Nowhere to Hide and Ultimate Weapon all being built to not just give the killer an idea of where to look, but basically slap a neon sign on survivors with 'KILL ME NOW' written on it.
The perks are auto-piloting the 'seek' portion of 'hide and seek'. Which, in turn, also devalues a number of survivor perks that are oriented towards a stealth-based playstyle.
And if you want to grasp just how badly intel got powercreeped, the baseline presumption of 'Killers should have to look for survivors' essentially got swapped out for 'Killers should be able to read survivor auras on demand'.
Killers always knowing where survivors are hiding is the new baseline. Distortion bucks that trend, and thus Distortion becomes the problem for some reason.
As opposed to the multitude of perks that have effectively removed a component of gameplay.
'Well, a Distortion user is going to cause others to get tunnelled!'
But that argument already presumes the killer's perks allow them to infallibly find the other survivors. It normalises this. Nowhere to Hide, Ultimate Weapon, Floods of Rage, Darkness Revealed, whatever other perks that do this: These aren't normal. And they're not supposed to be.
Distortion just resets things to the actual baseline.
Killers may not like it, but it's a case of a broken perspective that all the blame for the interaction between Distortion and aura reading gets placed on Distortion, when the aura reading perks themselves are a massive contributing factor.
None of these things would've been issues if intel perks had not progressed past BBQ & Chili.
People in glass houses…
This is not a people in glass houses statement because on my post about people defending op perks where I clearly stated a lot of killer perks I want to be nerfed they made this post
copy and paste directly
They could nerf all survivor perks until This Is Not Happening is the #1 perk and people would still come here calling it broken...They just are I know it's not nice to be blunt about it but almost anything this person says is from the "killers want to take my toys away camp" I'm sorry they are what they are they keep doing it and have been doing it for ages.
I know they are an ingrained part of the forums community but im not going to mince my words just because of that. Id say it a xxxMrbooger123xxx with 4 posts and it says it to someone with 20k posts, unlike a lot of players here who are very likely to call Mr. Booger what he is but not the otherway around.
Also NTH should be nerfed to be brought in line with the other aura perks but the power creep in this game does not apply to aura perk more than others because as the game has changed the "hide and seek" portion of the game has declined in relevance while the chasing side of the game has increased.
Distortion just resets things to the actual baseline.
It does not completely make's the perks it counters irrelevant without any real condition the killer has control over. It's like if languid touch or any exhaustion infliction perk did not have a requirement. It's overpowered and disproportionately effects killers running weaker builds because every aura perk is one slot thats not a slowdown. Its a bad perk its an overpowered perk (but you know my bar for where overpowered is)
I know this bridges into another thread but its also an example of that power creep point I made whereas things become more powerful what you bring and how good it is against the things the other side brings becomes more important
(as seen by how old ultimate weapon was not effected by distortion so it immediately became the best detection perk) -
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743450#Comment_3743450
I disagree because I feel the reason we don't see the variance is because of that gap
But with any gap, there's two ways to close it. And just as an example: No amount of nerfs is going to make people pick up Red Herring.
There's a lot more you can achieve with buffs than nerfs in this area. Particularly on the survivor side.
You can't buff forever while leaving the strong stuff the same it is how you get powercreep.
for every up there has to be an equivalent down or after a while everything collapses when games will become even more about what you bring and what is good into what killer and so on.
say for example smash hit an earlier example of a perk that is good against some killers more than others, if you buff the effects to compete at the same level with sprint burst which is a very consistent perk the killers that is better against feel its more so than the killers than its worse against.
If too many of the average perks can't be buffed like this you kinda of have to start nerfing stuff and being unapologetic about it.
Make no mistake most of the stuff in this thread I've said should be nerfed I use but the only way possible to create perk variety is through nerfs
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See cheaters every game.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743381#Comment_3743381
I disagree. Perks are meant to create versatility and variance. While current perk design definitely leaves a lot to be desired, nerfing everything down to even just Smash Hit levels would make the game significantly more monotonous as you wouldn't see perks come into play much at all.
At which point the only variance would be on the killer side, as killers would still allow you to play a multitude of different matches.
I disagree because I feel the reason we don't see the variance is because of that gap, there are other factors I think that most players will aways run 1 exhaustion perk (because of the gap) but then they will put on a perk to punish tunnelling effectively leaving most of the player base with 2 real slots with completely free choices
On killer its the same with most players going
Find players perk
Slowdown
Choice
Choice
and I don't see a way to close that gap without bringing down the best perks, it doesn't need to be to smash hits level but their cant be perks doing everything and more than another perk can offer imo.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743238#Comment_3743238
Nah we have been defending This is not happening and Calm Spirit because these are "broken perks" to killers.
Then your topic is about "stop defending broken perks"
I remember a post a while ago when someone asked about what people think the best and worst part of the forums are and players often referred to the two sides stuff, the pity parties ect but I have always thought some of the multi-thousand-hour posters were the biggest offenders but because their posts are well written they get away with it.
I just wanted to let you know that.
there is no point talking to you beyond this point.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3743229#Comment_3743229
Smash hit has a useful effect, but sprint burst exists.
This kind of illustrates really nicely what most folks' issue with your perspective is, though.
Sprint Burst isn't broken.
Smash HIt is just bad.
Yes, it grants an extra second of sprint, and has a shorter cooldown, but in exchange, there's a lot of killers it won't work against. The requirement of getting that pallet stun is a steep one that makes the perk way too hard to use and too unreliable in comparison to its competition.
If you want to fix that via nerfs, you'd have to nerf SB, Lithe, AND Balanced Landing out of viability.
At which point you're not all that likely to see more Smash Hit, as other perks may overtake exhaustion perks in their entirety, considering the entire class got nuked.
You're drawing a limited number of comparisons, and you're missing the bigger picture.
Its hard to use, its unreliable but it is useful if it came out at the start of this games lifespan and sprint burst was not in the game it would be used. something being outclassed doesn't mean it's not useful and there are plenty of perks like this but the top tier of the perk tier list has been allowed to run away and leave everything in the dust.
People are just used to perks, items and things in general having way too much influence in the game the general standard for perks at the top is too far above the mid-level perks.
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@Nazzzak said:
They could nerf all survivor perks until This Is Not Happening is the #1 perk and people would still come here calling it broken...
Re commenting because it did not post.
How you have turned a post where I call for pop and pain res to be nerfed again into a look at how oppressed survivors are with the killers want to take away our toys posts is beyond my understanding
Say the line bart
"entitled survivor mains"
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@Devil_hit11 said:
there is difference between useful perks and broken perks. It is all depends where you draw the line for useful vs broken.
There are plenty of useful perks that are not broken in any way but they just can't compete.
Smash hit has a useful effect, but sprint burst exists.
Coup de Grace is a useful perk and it will give you hits you wouldn't otherwise get. But a perk that regresses a gen by 20% 4 times every game exists.
There are useful perks in this game and you will notice them help you when you use them but the gap between the perks at the very top and the middle is so big I don't think a perk being useful is enough to get anywhere near them.
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Which is why we asked for what you define as "Broken". What is your "acceptable level"? We gave our definition and each perk follows through with not being "broken". Some of those things listed after also doesn't show how something is "broken".
over 220 odd perks exist in this game. About 20 dominate it. They are broken.
Why isn't the one trying to get win streaks also bringing the best things? If the one running the best things still sucks and still wins, how good was the one trying to get the win streak really? Playing nurse doesn't guarantee a win, the nurse has to actually be better than the survivors to win. Isn't you losing on a map due to either the map being unbalanced or the survivors being better? Perks are suppose to help the player, in this situation pain res is doing its job and helping you.
The people doing streaks are bringing the best things and going on ridiculous streaks and then are only losing to someone bringing the equivalent to the other side you need the best stuff to beat the best stuff even 4 strong players with mediocre stuff struggle that's the point I was making I think you missed it. It flew over your head in an attempt to question how good i am at the game. The general point is it's very easy to beat players of your skill level with good stuff if they don't bring the equivalent. Out perking someone (including bringing items offering ect) is very easy in dbd. Perks are a part of it but im just making that point out here…
And thats your opinion. Your welcome to it, but as one of us stated before: Whats broken for you is not broken for me and whats broken for me is not broken for senior bacon which one turn may not be broken for whomever is next on the list.
Saying "that your opinion" doesn't change reality and you are not even expressing yours you are just inferring what yours is not justifying it dismissing mine then moving on. Say why they are not broken I keep saying why they are that's what this whole thread is ive even given individual reasons up the thread although they may not be in my replies to you. I remember saying why i think the exhaustion perks are broken. I've mentioned how playing with pain res lets me claw back games earlier.
which disproves this
And NONE of the above shows how any perk (which is what your original topic is about) is "broken". The closest is the pain res helping you but you coulda made a comeback any number of ways as far as we know, especially since you have to earn pain res procs.
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@wakesafe said:
There’s no reason for good solo Survivors to play. Killers will chase you for like 30 seconds and then drop chase to go tunnel someone else out. Then you’ll get slugged for the 4K. So your reward for putting effort into learning Survivor is to sit on gens and lay on the ground doing nothing…? I’d rather go play anything else.
I know it's not everyone's view but the new killers are just not as fun to run against as well. It's pushed me away from playing it.
I like facing like half the killers but when im on killer i can ignore them
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742806#Comment_3742806
Part of the reason Sprint Burst and Lithe are so good is because they're unrestricted, though. You only have to not run them both at once, the only perk in the game that I can think of that you can't run with them is Iron Will. If there were more perks that forced you to pick, as long as all the perks involved are individually good, you'd see more variety.
If you think those two perks are too strong regardless of any other context, you do need to back that up with some kind of explanation. If it's just about perk variety, though, then restricting loadouts with soft mechanics like Exhaustion is just as valuable as nerfing things.
Exhaustion perks extend chases for free and sprint burst enables you to do more than any other perk in the game with it.
Its really that simple yes you can make gens go faster or heal faster but with Sprint Burst you buy your team at minimum a fixed amount of time to do anything and it gives you more of a choice of what you can use on the map every time it used, it is often the difference between getting to play strong tile or loops vs weaker tiles or loops it also lets you link things you otherwise would not 99d it also just lets you traverse the map faster generally. It is probably the best perk in the game in the correct hands.
Lithe buys time and lets you link unless windows to other tiles and gives you lots distance to work with mid chase.
Every strong build in the game if you can have an exhaustion perk in, you do. they are the best perks in the game and its why exhaustion as a status effect exists. The fact a perk like languid touch exists and its sole purpose is to apply a status effect that prevents the activation of these perks is mental, all it does is deny the best perks in the game if you set off a crow and that puts it ahead of a fair few of the perks in this game.
They are too strong and leave every other survivor perk in the dust.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742709#Comment_3742709
We're going to state right off the bat that your standards for mid and ours are very different but we're going to put that aside and give an explanation on how we see each of those 12 (6 survivor and 6 killer perks) as not "broken" (and we would now like a definition of "broken" please. For us it's: Something that's extremely overwhelming for normally competent (not new, not competitive) players, extreme effects that are also uncountable, or something that literally breaks the game). If you want to see them they're below 👇. If you want the short sloppy summary, they each have some form of condition, counter, or drawback for their effects.
Survivor
Windows: it gives information on pallets and windows. That's it. It can be countered by blindness and doesn't save people in bad hands. Surprise a survivor, corral them, or burn everything Abit at a time to make the info pointless. Its decent, good, not "broken"
Lithe: Sprint burst after vaulting. It's a once per chase (unless the killer majorly screwed up) thing and does not work while exhausted (which there are various ways to cause) and if they don't have anything to vault and works poorly when vaulting from a high place. As before, good not "broken"
Resilience: Ok bonuses to various attributes while injured. Risk and reward, your now easier to catch if you want to keep using the bonuses. Fair to us and not "broken".
Otr: 80 seconds of conditional endurance and stealth effect. Conditional being the focus as it turns off if they progress the game or (more than likely to happen) get hit. Ohh and it costs a hook state and turns off at endgame. Not "broken" to us.
DS: Conditional get out of grasp free card. As above, they can't progress the game, costs a hook state, and off at endgame. Annoying when people try to weaponize it but not "broken".
Distortion: Token based counter to aura reading and when it goes off you can learn what aura reading the killer has and it hides scratch marks. Does nothing if the killer doesn't use aura reading, making it practically dead in the water in that condition nor does it counter killer instinct. Can run out (admittedly with effort) and rarely does anything in chase. Good, not "broken".
Killer
Deadlock: blocks the gen with the most progress passively when a gen is finished and you know which one. You can't choose which gen, when it goes off, you lost a gen, you can't regress the gen you most likely need to, and another gen could pop anyway. Ok, but not "broken".
Grim Embrace: 12 sec (we think) block after hooking a survivor for the first time, and upon hooking all 4 once get a 40 sec block and some aura reading on the obsession. You need to find each survivor and hook them to get value and only get full value when you don't hook the obsession last for procing. Its annoying to us but we ain't gonna call that "broken".
Surge: upon downing a survivor with a basic hit, explode nearby gens. Does not work with many powers, can chew through available regression events of not careful, and you need to fight the survivors of you want to decide where you want to proc it. Good, not amazing, not "broken".
Pop: Catch and hook a survivor for the limited time ability to kick a chunk off a gens progress. Seems balanced to us as your rewarded for successfully doing your mission and actually need to go and get to the gen you want to regress before it pops. Definitely doesn't fit "broken".
Pain res: Hook a survivor for the first time on a special hook to kick a chunk off the gen with the most progress. As an additional bonus they scream. Like pop your rewarded for doing your job and get bonuses for going out of your way for the other requirements (fresh special hooks). It also only works 4 times and you can't pick the gen meaning you can potentially waste a valuable charge. Same as before, not "broken".
Lethal: Aura reading at the start and an extension on all aura reading. Good for fast killers and aura builds, which is less gen regression. Also does not help in chase without help. Finally, all parts of it are countered if survivors bring distortion (with the exception of that you know if people brought it). Don't think it "broken".
For those who have read through the whole thing, we Rulebreakers thank you for your time and plz never condone advertising.
Describing each perk does not accurately display how impactful they are on the game for example.
windows-It gives info on pallets and windows yes it does now how does that impact the game? You know what's used and what's not, you know what's spawned before you run an area and you are able to better plan out your chases.
This can be done for every perk you have mentioned
also, the only reason we have different views on what's broken is because we are willing to accept different levels of impact as acceptable. It was only recently a certain dbd youtuber said that he think experience is secondary to what you bring into a lobby (items offerings ect) and as long as the best perks, items, offerings and addons I'm inclined to agree because of stuff like-
Almost a winstreaks ends with someone getting sniped with a a stack with the best stuff or a killer-playing nurse.
In a lot of close games I know I would likely win on a better map I lose due to a map offering.
A lot of game I should lose I win due to my perks when pain res keeps me in a game that was spiraling out of control.
It feels very easy using the best stuff when others are not using the best stuff but the other way around it feels miserable unless the gap in hours between you and the other players is massive.
Until that is not the case almost all the best stuff in this game is the best stuff because it is broken.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742796#Comment_3742796
I see.
So, my understanding is that you're not arguing for the perks themselves actually being broken, but rather than them being stronger is a problem for perk variety?
In that case, I can sort of get behind it, but there are a few things being missed here. One of the bigger and more unavoidable ones is that there are already plenty of good perks people just refuse to run, so clearly to some degree people will flock to certain options even if they aren't actually much stronger - you can very clearly see that in Windows being the most run perk in the game despite being pretty mid - but there's also the fact that you do have other options than just flat nerfing.
For instance, when you talk about Exhaustion perks being over-represented, I think there are other options. I think BHVR had a really good thing going when they gave Iron Will and original Made For This the "can't be Exhausted" stipulation despite those perks not being Exhaustion perks. More strong perks with that stipulation - some new, some old and just given this quality - would make Exhaustion perks less desirable without actually making them weaker.
You'd be pushed into choosing whether or not to get the speed boost of an Exhaustion perk, or something more versatile from another perk, because those two tools don't work well together. Restrictions can be just as effective as nerfs, with the added benefit of each individual perk still being as good as before.
I agree with what you are saying about iron will but currently the amount of perks arguably better than sprint burst and Lithe are in the single digits and at that point if you want to keep them at their current strength you would need a system like a point based system (which I don't want to see)
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3742721#Comment_3742721
Survivor perks have to be cheeks if WoO can be considered powercreep.
Power creep is what release CoH, Made for This and old new Boil Over. Insinuating that WoO is even in the same league as these perks, if anything proves to me how tame the survivor meta must be if that perk is what's being complained about.
I know this is a hill you are willing to die on so beyond this post I'm not going to argue that Windows is strong but you would not be so invested in the point that Windows is strong if you really believed it was weak.
- you are coping over the fact I'm calling a perk you want to believe is not strong is strong
- or (in your view) you are doing to equivalent of trying to tell someone saying empathy is op that its not on repeat
I doubt it's the second to be completely honest.