NorMak3
NorMak3
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@Razer said:
I main hillbilly and play both killer and survivor at rank 1.
I understand how dumb it is for a hillbilly to turn around the map and do laps and be able to snipe, but it is just a meme. What this is, is called drifting and even with max steering add ons you cannot drift enough to down a survivor at range as they can just juke it unless they make a mistake. To down with a drift under every circumstance it requires the survivor to mess up to be able to get downed.
Hillbilly is good at 3 things, back revs, curving and map pressure.
Back revs: this is when a survivor is close to the killer and now cannot evade a chainsaw if it starts sprinting towards them as there is not enough distance to dodge like a drift. This though is not easy as survivors have objects to circle like trees and mindgames or jukes to use such as 360 or run in a straight line to make the hillbilly not focus then 360. The hillbilly, if good enough, using pure skill can technically never miss but due to every survivor playing differently and people naturally making mistakes you will never get to a point where you don't miss. This is fair as the survivor can outplay the killer making what would have been a m1 for a different killer be just a miss, which greatly extends chase time, but is still in the killers favour.
Curving: for the first second of chainsaw sprint the hillbilly can turn with normal camera control. Using this you can start sprint before going round corners which will give the extra speed boost needed to down and then turn the corner whixh eill result in a down at most loops if the survivor does not drop pallets. Though the survivor can just run away from the loop the second the chainsaw starts or run away once they see the killer will land the hit which will result in the curve doing nothing but miss. But no survivor should leave loops early so thats not a problem for point 1 and you can still down the survivor in point 2 with increased movement speed add ons as they will have less time to react and almost always die. This is fair as it requires extremely high skill by the billy and can still be countered by the survivors skill themselves.
Map pressure: Back revs, curves and his high speed can give him some really good map pressure since he can quickly down and quickly get to the gens. But is this a problem? Yes and no. Technically no as if your all good players and a highly coordinated swf who prove difficult in chase and good at recognising when to give in to map pressure and when not to. This will still make a very difficult match to win for the survivors, but 2 or 1 can escape no matter what if the team is good enough, no matter how good the billy is. This is a problem as the billy cannot win against the best which is clearly unfair. But if even 1 teammate is not good enough that can creat so much map pressure for the billy that he can win no matter what. So yes, the billy can win guaranreed and lose guaranteed depending on the team.
Conclusion: your changes wouldn't improve billys chasing capabilites as drifting is useless and it would completely remove the most important part of his map pressure being that he can zoom across them map. This would make a good enough swf literally almost impossible to even tie against but would make worse players not be guaranteed to lose against a good enough billy.
Billy takes alot of skill to play and can be outplayed by survivers in chase at the all skill levels. So everyone likes him as he is fun to verse and play. But the problem is the best players are always going to win and anything less is always going to lose agianst the best billy. So billy is both op and underpowered, to fix the billy you would have to completely overhaul every mechanic of the game so that there is no guaranteed losses even when your the best you can possibly be. Though of course 1 survivor at the literally highest skill shouldn't beat the killer i'm talking about the team as 1 entity.
Sorry if I don't completely make sense at some points but i'm just trying to say how he is balanced enough for how the game works right now as you can't change him before you completely change the games mechanics and because of that fact we should just accept that the 2nd best killer requires alot of skill and is ver fun to verse due to how yoy can outplay him and be very scared of him making him intense and fun to both play and verse.
Well I appreciate the feedback Razer. You are completely right, he is broken and simultaneously underpowered, but I have seen many videos and heard many testimonys against the fun of the Hillbilly. His sound design and animations making any screw up incredibly frustrating (which I tackled in the aesthetic changes section) and his insane map pressure has been infuriating for many survivors I have heard from. In fact, that's the position of most of the killers in the roster, simultaneously broken and underpowered and not fun to play as or against in most situations. With these changes he would still have an advantage over most other killers for map pressure, but it would be in small bursts, so you could cover half the map, take a little break, then cover the other half with little issue. This would also make insta-chainsaw builds lose map pressure to make up for their nearly instant insta-down potential.
You are also right in that the game does need massive changes at its core. That is why I made the whole document. These changes should allow for more balance and fun, leaning power to the killers while being more forgiving to survivors. Ideally, it will be like a real horror movie where it's more like 1 in 100 games in red ranks that more than 2 survivors ever escape instead of 2 in 3 games where everyone gets out. I suggest you read the rest of it and tell me what you think. I'd love to hear from you again Razer.
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@Kind_Lemon said:
That's not how Jigsaw boxes work. There's a specific key for a specific RBT in a box somewhere. Which box it is, no one knows.
It's not RNG based off of each search.
Thank you, but Lexilego has already informed me. Thanks for correcting me though.
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@Lexilogo said:
This is a pretty big thing so I don't want to mouth off without looking into more of this first, but I'll quickly chime in to say that Jigsaw Box suggestion would require an overhaul of how Jigsaw Boxes are coded.
Currently to my understanding the keys for RBTs are determined at the start of the match and randomly distributed between the boxes, it's not like the game rolls for the right Jigsaw box every time you search a new one.
I had no idea that's how Jigsaw boxes worked. My thought was to just make sabotaging more helpful in more situations and thought that would be a good way to implement it. Thanks for the heads up!
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@PigNRun said:
I know this is bait/a joke, but what did you mean by "Power Outage"? You mean EGC?
Hey PigNRun, I should've let you know earlier, but if you were still curious about the Power Outage idea, here it is: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/141404/dear-dead-by-daylight-new-game-phase-power-outage-excerpt#latest
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@6yXJI0 said:
I just took most used killer perks and "moderately - tremendously" nerfed them for no good reason.
Same with all of your posts...
Well 6yXJI0, I've been trying my best to explain my reasoning in the comments along with on the main document. In addition, people in the community have been helping me correct myself when I get too far out of line. What problems do you have with these suggestions specifically?
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@PlantCollector said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1188182#Comment_1188182
Oh, i didn't know these changes were part of one of your projects. Im sorry, in that case i can't tell if my response was far off or not because im missing the context.
As for franklins, i (that may be very personal) think the only good way to counter or get rid of items is franklins demise at the moment. Overwhelming and lightborn are very situational. If you think about that in a different way i would love to hear your thoughts.
Calm Spirit perk discription: "Your calm spirit can overcome the urge to scream." It does counter any screams, i.e. if you raise up in madness by the doctors shocks/blast or the sreams from infectious fright.
I have to say i really admire you for all the effort and time you seem to put into your project as well as your ability to include criticism.
@SunaIIanu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1188182#Comment_1188182
I just want to say a few things:
I get where you are coming from with rancor, but the situation you described is a very specific one: Rancor won't trigger when you close the hatch, only when all the gens are done, but if the Obsession finishes the last gen and is alone, they have the two doors and the hatch as an escape alternative, that's not a bad situation, if the killer closes the hatch instantly and the doors are close, rancor won't matter because the survivor is in a bad spot anyway.
For Nurse's, I think you are confusing Nurse's and BBQ (or maybe the changed the perk a while ago or I missunderstood you) but currently it has a radius of 28 meters on tier 3, so it's not as bad as you think it is. Mostly I get one skillcheck while healing somebody (I don't use selfcare, so I don't know how many skillchecks you get when using it) sometimes not even one, so I think your nerf for Nurse's might be to much, it would probably only work on selfcare users.
Calm spirit does counter infectious 100%. The Devs changed it a while ago, it silences birds and screams from getting hit or downded, from abilities like Doc's shock or Clown's gas and from perks like infectious.
Hey, thanks for the feedback. I could have sworn that Doctor and Clown stuff still made you scream, but maybe I was mistaken on that. I still think that Infectious Fright should be nerfed because, as I said in my Hag article, one perk shouldn't be the only counter to something that powerful. Also thanks for the heads up on Nurse's. It has been a very long time since I last looked at the page, I legit thought it had that 40 meter range. Thanks for pointing that out. I still think there should be a minor change to it, maybe you get a loud noise notification if anyone is healing in that 28 meters and it shows their location when they start, but not their aura the whole time. I don't know, I feel like that'd be a fair and minor change: still get a close idea of location without giving active info. Franklin's is a good counter to items in general, but items are the second most important part of a survivor's kit. I think it might need a little more risk reward, possibly that downing requirement, but with the increased item destruction I listed above.
Thanks for the corrections and suggestions guys! Appreciate it!
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@KingFrost said:
These ideas would destroy all game balance.
NOED - Why would a hex totem that can be cleansed to end the effect have a time limit? It's a hex perk, and can potentially not proc at all. It's totally up to the survivors.
BBQ - Nerfing the bloodpoint bonus is legitimately one of the worst ideas I've ever heard on these forums. The bloodpoint grind is bad enough as it is. This would make it all the worse. I also don't see why it shouldn't show survivors who've been downed. This perk needs no nerf. If you find it annoying, that's more a you problem than anything.
Rancor - This change would be punishing to killers who want to actually get use out of it. There's already enough of a downside to the perk. Plus if you want to Mori, you have to let the obsession live. This is one of the few perks that encourages the killer not to just tunnel the obsession.
Monitor - Why does it need a FOV increase nerf exactly? The FOV increase doesn't stack. So what's the point here exactly? I mean nobody uses Monitor for the FOV increase, but the additional field of view is nice.
Nurses - This idea might be worse than the BBQ idea. You know how to counter this? Don't heal when inside the killer's terror radius! It's really that simple. This would nerf Nurses into the ground.
Bamboozle - Also doesn't need a nerf. Once you know the killer has bamboozle, you can play around it very easily.
Enduring - This just makes a fairly weak perk, even weaker.
Franklin's - You already have to M1 the survivor, so I don't think this is necessary. If anything, franklin's should receive a buff.
Iron Grasp - Another perk that absolutely doesn't need to be nerfed.
STBFL - Another perk that encourages you to keep the obsession alive. The nerf isn't needed, unless -- as Otzdarva suggested, they make STBFL with 3 tokens as base. If they do that, THEN you could talk about nerfing STBFL.
Infectious Fright - Would be mostly useless, much like your nurse's suggestion. Especially at Tier 1. Survivors within 6 meters? Do you know how small of an area that is? You'd almost never get anyone to scream. This nerf makes the perk pointless.
PGTW - Pop needs a slight buff if anything, and that buff should be no time limit. It should always be 25%. Let's not nerf one of the few good slowdown perks.
Sloppy Butcher - Why should it have a time limit, exactly? Its countered by Inner Strength. This perk is another decent slowdown perk that should stay the way it is. Plus it would encourage players to NOT heal, which is the last thing a killer wants with Sloppy Butcher. It essentially makes the perk pointless. Survivors, instead of healing decide to work on generators for two minutes, THEN heal at the normal pace, making the perk entirely pointless. Since the idea is to slowdown generator speeds. As the perk is now, the survivors have a choice between not healing, or healing and taking a long time. With your idea, the survivors can either take a long time to heal, or work on gens, then heal up as normal speed with no problem. This makes the perk absolutely worthless.
If you find perks annoying, maybe change your playstyle instead of asking them to change perks that are perfectly fine?
I'm responding to King Frost, but both you and Plant Collector have brought forward some points I would like to address.
First, a general point: these changes were made with greater buffs to killers, game times, and bloodpoint gains in mind. Several of the complaints are, at least to an extent, a problem with the game's current mechanics, namely BBQ and the problem with bloodpoints. Additionally, these are meant to be a meta buster. With the rest of the changes in this series, a nerf to the strongest perks would allow for more variety for each game instead of just a beefed up version of what already is. That being said, I'll go into each of the other perks.
NOED: I mentioned that the time limit would be more for less experienced players who would get frustrated simply dying at the end of every game since they aren't used to searching and destroying totems. Sure, its proxy is dependent on the survivors, but for anyone who hasn't sunk more than 200 hours in this game and doesn't know where every totem placement in every map is, it is far from satisfying to just be downed out of nowhere.
BBQ: There are exactly 69 killer perks in the game. I believe the expectation from the developers is that most if not all of them would be used in an almost equal distribution. Now I understand that BBQ is ran by almost everyone, but that shouldn't change the fact that it is a band-aid for a lot of other issues. In this series, my goal is to fix all of those issues, thus this would be the removing of the band-aid from the healed wound. Its seeing of downed survivors helps in the process of slugging. As for Plant Collector's issues, letting players know would cause more locker hiding (since most people just take the BBQ reveal when they don't know) and, thus, more slowdown. There wouldn't be as many revealings, but that would be a decent trade off.
Rancor: First, every single Michael perk is about not tunneling the obsession. As for this perk, it's meant to be used when a killer is down on their luck and can't seem to get a kill. It's a comeback perk. It probably shouldn't be as strong when you've had a good round. If a survivor has just barely made it and the hatch gets closed, they don't deserve the amount of punishment they get from rancor normally.
Bamboozle: You may be right, but the developers have been trying their hardest to keep only one set of changing numbers per perk and I thought a lower number might be nice. Perhaps a constant 15 seconds just to keep it a nice clean number?
Monitor: I know this perk is really meta and I really don't understand why. I was just trying to find a way to nerf it that didn't make it useless so that it would fit all the meta perks in with the (hopefully) more balanced full list of perks.
Nurse's: I mentioned this in another post, but I've done a lot of math for this series. The average distance from the center of the map for any one map is 48.85 meters from the center. Nurse's has a radius of 40 meters from the killer and a good killer is not only very mobile, but is also focused on central gens, since if a central gen is completed, it becomes much more easy for survivors to get outer generators done. Added with sloppy butcher and some of the smaller maps and it's almost an inevitability that the killer will see someone healing.
Enduring: I may have made this list some time ago and haven't looked into all of the patches with a fine tooth comb. You're probably right on this one.
Franklin's: I'm not sure what you mean by the only good perk against items. There are plenty of perks against the particular use of items, but not items as a whole, which seems like an unnecessary category. Regardless, I think that a buff to the damage of the item should be in order, now that items can't really be lost unless the survivor dies. I still think that they should only drop the item when they are downed because of making sense thematically, as well as them not being able to get it back until they are freed causing more slowdown, but what if when it is dropped, the item loses 10/15/20% of its charges instead of the normal 0/5/10%?
Iron Grasp: I may have been mistaken on this one too. I thought it was really strong since it could drag you to the basement pretty easily with agitation, but very few people actually use it that way. Additionally, wiggling is a very minute part of the game, so this nerf was probably undeserved. Thank you for pointing it out.
Save The Best For Last: Maximum STBFL is 40% recovery on successful attacks. While you have to work on it, that is ridiculous. 40% doesn't give survivors enough time to run away after being attacked and might as well be an instant down unless they've got an easily accessible pallet. Though, perhaps it is not the increase, but the maximum that is the problem. What if the bonus was still 5% for each attack, but the maximum came only up to six tokens. 30% maximum to match with its sister perk unrelenting and is more likely to reach maximum STBFL. What do all of you think?
Infectious Fright: I think that Infectious Fright isn't meant for the purpose most of you are assuming it is. As I understand it, Infectious Fright is not meant to be a detection perk, but a caution for flashlight saves. Plague was added somewhat recently and was added in a time when team flashlight saves were at an all time high. Infectious Fright was meant to prevent that, not reveal everyone. It also encourages slugging by revealing a lot of area closeby. Factor in Distressing to increase terror radius and the previous math for Nurse's and that also gives a coverage of the entire map if the survivor was running a central jungle gym or pallet loop. Keeping it more centered will allow killers to know if anyone's closeby for a flashlight, body block, or head on save without being ridiculous in range.
Pop Goes the Weasel: Pop is the strongest generator perk in the game. It is also the only good generator perk in the game besides Discordance (I also have nerfed that in the main document, but I'm not going to add it to this here. If you want to check it out and comment, you can go to the main doc, check it out, and come back here to comment. I'd appreciate it). In my earlier article "Dear Dead By Daylight: Killer Perk Changes: Buffs", I suggested ways to make and modify existing perks to be much better generator perks. This was an attempt at trying to fit this perk in with the new perk buffs, but if the other perks are strong, then I shouldn't need to nerf this one. You guys are totally right.
Sloppy Butcher: I hadn't thought about it that way. Generators would get done very fast that way. I do think some slight modifications still need to be done for the perk, but perhaps something less drastic. To start, I think that mangled should work like every other form of slowing down or speeding up of actions with items, where the consumption rate changes with the speed. If survivors are mangled, you want them to heal and if they don't have any healing perks or teammates nearby, but they have a medkit, they won't use it if they're going to lose it before finishing. Secondly, make the haemorrhage effect fade after 90 seconds. I know that won't do that much, but it would be nice to unclutter the screen a little more. I think that might make it a bit more tasteful, though that's more of a change to the mangled effect than the actual perk.
I think that about covers it. Also as far as I know PlantCollector, Calm Spirit does not counter infectious fright. It does basically nothing except silence the birds.
Thanks for all the feedback! This was all really helpful.
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I understand that tomorrow is April Fool's Day, but I would like to make it quite clear that this is not a joke article. These are legitimate suggestions. Though they are meant to be taken into the greater gestalt of the whole article. Within it, I introduce new mechanics and buffs that would hopefully put killers at a major advantage instead of the joke they currently are. Perhaps a brief look at the main article could help orient these changes better.
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@PigNRun said:
I know this is bait/a joke, but what did you mean by "Power Outage"? You mean EGC?
Oh Jeez, sorry, there is a planned article later that explains plans for a new game phase called the Power Outage. Thanks for pointing that out!
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@jules_bl said:
Bro I can’t take that post serious.. the game would be officially 100% dead if even half of these go through lmao
Alright, which ones in particular would cause such a problem?
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@Earth_Chan said:
It's only april fools... right?
That's tomorrow. Did you have problems with this or are you a time traveler and don't know when you've landed?
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@Blazelski said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1178948#Comment_1178948
Fair enough on the Clown. I'm not great with him anyway, so I can't judge high level play well enough. Btw, I also dream of coming up with a document that the community mostly approves of and handing it to the devs to make their lives easier and improve the game. Though it's only a dream, I like dreaming and think it can be important. Continuing from where I left off.
I like the additional adjustments you made to the Legion. My only thought is that now there isn't sufficient incentive to get rid of rage tokens except for the survivors who prioritize stealth above all else. Maybe fear of failing skill checks is enough, but I'm not certain. Here are my rough suggestions for addon changes considering where you have him now. Smiley Face Pin: Slightly increase time for survivors to lose rage tokens in a locker (+.5 seconds), with the other tiers to be +1 second and +1.5 seconds. Broken Chainlink/Broken Mop: Increase the time before healing/repairing can progress immediately after a failed skill check due to you snapping your fingers (+1 second and +2 seconds). Fingerless Gloves: The Legion becomes obsessed with one survivor. When your obsession stops healing/repairing after you snapped your fingers on them, they will still fail the next skill check they encounter. Bent Hairpin: When survivors fail a skill check due to you snapping your fingers, they receive a regression penalty of 5%.
Huntress (take 2): I would find this change acceptable, but it would effectively neutralize Huntress pallet mind games, which is a no go. The only thing I hate about her is her omnidirectional humming that still sounds like it's coming from a particular direction even though it isn't. I'm honestly not sure exactly what to change about her, or how, although she is certainly very annoying to play against for me and others I've spoken with. Those who get close to her skill cap are nigh unstoppable.
Nightmare: Overall, I like this change. I think having his full cooldown when he cancels his teleportation is unnecessarily brutal. I also think his laugh being heard from 40 meters away and being directional gives too much information to survivors. I also don't understand why you want to switch the places of blood snares and dream pallets?
Oni: Not sure how much the charge changes are needed. I do find the idea of wider scratch mark areas while in Blood Fury to be pretty genius, but I'm not sure he needs a direct nerf without an accompanying buff of some kind. Haven't played as him enough to be good yet, so can't give a detailed and worthwhile critique. It's not uncommon for me to get wrecked by him, but I can't play him well at all yet either. I think he destroys bad survivors and gets destroyed by highly competent and knowledgeable ones, but that's just my take. What he needs most is to have his passive power gain addons changed.
Pig: On that note, what the Pig really needs is addon changes. After that, I think the degree to which she relies on RNG needs to be tapered back. Not more lethal reverse bear traps, but ones that more consistently slow survivors down. Even simple changes could probably do: The first jigsaw box you search takes longer to search, and the time for each jigsaw box after that gets faster the more of them you search. The jigsaw box aura idea is a good one, though.
Plague: At first I wanted to make some changes to your changes, but the more I thought about it the more I liked your proposal as is.
Shape: I agree with the changes you made and the reasons you made them, but this suggestion is just nerfs to Myers, who doesn't need to be nerfed overall. I think a small base improvement to his stalk rate and tier 3 duration would be all that's needed.
Spirit: Survivors being able to move through her husk is a good idea. It encourages boldness. The same can be said for making survivor grunts omnidirectional and distorted while phase walking further than 4 meters from a survivor. It encourages the survivor to make early mind-game plays that the Spirit can punish if she predicts. Making her slightly see-through is a terrible idea. Her mind-game potential is the best thing about her from an interactive gameplay perspective, and taking that away from her would make her lame.
Trapper: I like the spirit of the changes, but I feel the times for the Broken and Hindered penalty are far too long. I'd change it to 40 seconds if they free themselves and 20 seconds if someone else saves them.
Wraith: Yes, yes, yes, with the following changes: His distortion effect is active even when he is standing still, and the Bone Clapper delays the sound of having become invisible by 3 seconds. Your suggested change would need to bring it up into VR or even UR territory, I would think.
PHEW! Killer section done! Will look into the other sections on another day!
Hey Blazelski,
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I've been implementing some of your ideas since you had some excellent points. I've been rather busy with stuff, both here and elsewhere, so don't always expect rapid fire replies (though I'll try my best). Can't wait to see what you've got to say about the rest!
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@SnakeSound222 said:
I don’t think a simple numbers buff will fix Unnerving. I think it needs to also have a 70/60/50% chance to trigger counterclockwise skill checks and remove the great skill check zone. My numbers are backwards on purpose so the Survivor cannot guess the skill check’s direction as they’ll have a 50/50 chance of getting an counterclockwise one at tier 3.
Dying Light really needs to affect the Obsession or not deactivate when they are killed. On any Killer not named Plague or Legion, it gives you a super-powered Obsession that you don’t want to kill. Slug them and that means the Obsession will not be having a lot of fun.
Your Overcharge idea sounds interesting. I have a different idea that basically makes the gen go nuts and is dangerous to stay around:
You are fuelled by your hate for progress.
Overcharge a Generator by performing the Damage Generator action.
The next Survivor interacting with that Generator is faced with a tremendously difficult Skill Check.
Failing the skill check results in an additional 3/4/5% Regression penalty and overloads the Generator, causing it to spark wildly for 3/4/5 seconds and will regress by an additional 5/10/15% throughout this period. It will also lock Survivors who attempt to repair it out of all interactions for 2.5 seconds. Succeeding the Skill Check grants no progress, but prevents the Generator Explosion and overload.
Note: the additional regression is not 5/10/15% per second. That would make it nearly impossible to complete a generator as it’d regress by 75%. It’s 5/10/15% over the 3/4/5 seconds. Meaning that if a gen at 85% is overloaded, it will regress to 65% by the time Overcharge’s effect wears off.
These are some interesting ideas, but I would like to make a few comments on them. Unnerving would make survivors miss more skill checks like that, but I'm not sure that's the actual purpose of unnerving. In my experience, Unnerving is more like Huntress' Lullaby: it's a distraction to help aid stealth and ranged killers. I think making it a bit more dangerous to ignore is all it will take to make it more effective. It also kind of steps on the Doctor's toes.
As for Dying Light, that may be a good idea, but there should still be a reward for not going after the obsession (like its accompaniment perk Save the Best for Last). Perhaps it only reduces the tokens by half when the obsession is killed and you can't get any more.
Your overcharge idea sound really cool, but there's a few too many increasing numbers. I would recommend keeping a steady rate or amount of time and have the other one change with levels. Besides that, the interaction delay seems unnecessary when the generator will be regressing much faster than survivors can work on it unless they all work together. Maybe you should simply make it that the generator cannot be worked on for 2.5 seconds instead of making it survivor focused. Additionally, you may want to just add the instant regression to the slow degradation to clean it up a bit. Something like:
"You are fuelled by your hate for progress.
Overcharge a Generator by performing the Damage Generator action.
The next Survivor interacting with that Generator is faced with a tremendously difficult Skill Check.
Failing the skill check causes the Generator to spark wildly for 2/3/4 seconds and will regress at a rate of 5% per second. During this time, survivors cannot work on the generator. Succeeding the Skill Check grants no progress, but prevents the Generator Explosion and overload."
That's my advice anyway. I format this as advice because, while you're idea is cool, your goal with it is different. As far as I can tell, you're trying to make it even more risk/reward, while my goal is to make overcharge more useful in a general sense. Maybe you could put together your own general list of changes for the game. One of us would reach the dev's eventually, right?
Thanks to you and Sunallanu for the great suggestions. Hope to hear from both of you again!
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@SunaIIanu said:
Your ideas are interesting but I think some of your perks have to much going on in one perk, for example, your monstous shrine has 4 effects in one, that's a bit much, I would say use either the 2 hook effects or the 2 totem effect.
And knockout added exhaustion effect wouldn't really work because hooking removed exhaustion and I don't know if the Devs want a perk to override that mechanic
I think you may be right about Monstrous Shrine, maybe removing the totem alert might help clean it up. As for Knockout, it causes exhaustion before being put on the hook. This is meant to make touch and go revivals more difficult since, if the survivor has sprint burst or anything, it will prevent them from being able using it if they aren't put on the hook first. Thus, it discourages constant saving and distractions from survivors.
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@TwinPrinces said:
Urban evasion helps people be stealthy and there so few perks for that
Spine chill nerf? It's fine
I like the DS idea
Thank you for the feedback Twin Princes, but are you talking about the initial post or the listed suggestions I recently posted?
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Alright, this has all been really helpful. Thanks guys!
I get that I'm mistaken on the urban evasion nerf and that there isn't any need to do anything to it. I'm glad that most of you agree with the adrenaline changes and, while I think that the idea to have the speed boost increase depending on the situation would be cool, I think a minor number nerf is all that's necessary. Still a neat idea APoipleTurtle.
A lot of people have been saying that Spine Chill doesn't need a nerf, but I still think that it's just a little too versatile with too light of a backlash. A minor reduction in success zones is nothing when you get increased action speeds in EVERYTHING as well as knowing if the killer is looking in your direction.
As for Object of Obsession, I think the perk is already kinda complicated so I think we should stick with just the cooldown, but it could be a little longer, perhaps 45 seconds? Thank you APoipleTurtle and KingFrost.
I discussed a rework of Bond that includes a range buff, but requires actually working for that information in an earlier comment, but if you still disagree with that, perhaps a buff for Aftercare may be more appropriate.
I think the Self-care thing might be a little bit of a rework more than a nerf, I just put it under nerf since it seems like more of a nerf. I still think that increasing speed to limit independence would help the perk out, but maybe I'm wrong on that.
A lot of people have also complained about Dead Hard which is odd. I have seen many arguments saying that it is overpowered, underpowered, and fine as is. I will play a few games with Dead Hard to make my own conclusions, but until then I will not be touching it.
Then there's the elephant in the room: Decisive Strike. I have been working on this post for about a half hour attempting to come up with any possible solutions because, and I mean no offense, I think the answer is out there, it's just that none of us have found it yet. The best I can offer right now is the 20/25/30 time reduction that stops when in a chase, deep wound if you escape, and reduce the stun to 4 seconds. If anyone has the solution, I'm All Ears.
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@Raven014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1184137#Comment_1184137
If anything, I think Empathy should be nerfed a little. I love using Aftercare, but it is hard to maintain, but Empathy has no real requirement for such a powerful information tool.
I still stand by my suggestion for changing Bond, but you may be right about using empathy. It does have the massive range of 128 meters. It does have the limitation that it doesn't show when survivors are in "the killer's direct contact". Maybe it should have a range of 44/54/64 and has a cooldown of 15 seconds whenever you heal someone to full. What do all of you think?
(p.s. Thank you, this is exactly the conversation I want to see in these comments)
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@8bitviolence said:
As a new player I find it ridiciulous you even suggested a nerf to bond when it's not even that good begin with, That and us newbies need bond to be able to find each other and right now it's my favorite perk, if you run bond you can see your teammates but they can't see you with it, Dead hard needs changing too if that's the case
Perhaps I judged Bond too harshly, but I do think it should be changed to at least be a little more interesting. What if Bond had a range of 20/32/44 meters, but you have to have performed a cooperative action for at least 2 seconds with the survivor, then it activates for that survivor. It'd be like Aftercare, but more objective oriented, just like Dwight's kit is very objective oriented. If you don't know Aftercare: "Unlocks potential in one's Aura-reading ability. You see the Aura of every Survivor that, you rescued from a hook or who rescued you from one. You completed a Healing action on or who completed one on you. They also see your Aura. This occurs for up to 1/2/3 Survivor(s). All effects of Aftercare are reset when you are hooked by the Killer." Except, no reset since there's a limited range. Do you think that might work better?
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@Raven014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1184071#Comment_1184071
Well, at least you give an eloquent response.
DS is the biggest issue for me, personally. It's far too versatile at the moment, and I think it encourages survivors to be toxic right now, but the version I have designed has two important aspects to it:
- It can be used after both unhooks, regardless of use.
- If the people want to use it, they have to be tunneled.
This forces survivors who want to be toxic to not be useful and discourage that particular use of DS. It should not be a period of time of invulnerability. It should be a period of time for the survivor to get away from the hook and reorganize, not to just flaunt their shield in the killers face.
I agree that would be great if everyone meant well in Dead By Daylight, but knowing the player base and the youtubers they look up to, many survivors would happily throw away their chance at being useful if it meant getting taunting the killer at loops or getting that incredible flashlight save. I do see where you're coming from, but I think that change could actually do the opposite of your intention and actually encourage toxicity by having them avoid getting healed, doing gens, or anything productive. There's also the issue of stealth killers. If a survivor thinks it's safe to start working on a gen right after getting off hook since it looks like Ghostface left and he pops out around the corner and downs them, then they're stuck there thinking "I shouldn't have started working on a gen" and may default to the above behavior. What if the timer was just reduced to 20/25/30 seconds and the timer pauses if you get into a chase or are downed?
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@Raven014 said:
Not exactly sure that Self Care, Urban, and Object need nerfs at this point. And the only Bond users I know only use it to troll their teammates.
Spine Chill needs the vault speed increase taken away though. That has made me miss swings I know should've landed.
And I have a better idea for DS:
You can use it twice per game, and it's base timer is 60 seconds. However, Getting on a gen, getting in a locker, or getting fully healed will deactivate the perk. Someone else getting hooked will also deactivate the perk, because you are not getting tunneled anymore.
This would be a true anti tunneling perk, with the added caveat that they must be getting tunneled to use it. They could use it twice per match, only if the killer is really tunneling. I would consider it fair at this point instead of a free 60 seconds of invulnerability. Technically this would be weaker against all killers but really strong against tunnellers and campers.
Also, Enduring should work against it because that nerf to Enduring only made it useful with Spirit Fury, which is a real shame, but that's a topic for another post.
That's my opinion on this though.
Hey Raven, thanks for the feedback. I wanted to walk you through my thought process on your comments and see what you think. While self Care and Object may not be overpowered, but they can be used in toxic manners that I would hope to negate. I also think that Urban gives too much of a boost to crouching speed as it makes it exactly the same as walking speed which eliminates variety in movement, one of the only mechanics survivors have to use. Bond is a little too strong of an information perk and tends to overshadow other information perks such as empathy or aftercare. I thought that the vaulting speed thing was a hoax on Spine Chill, but after some deeper research, it does do that. I will make sure to add that vaulting speed be removed from Spine Chill and that they include all of Spine Chill's uses. As for DS, there is a major problem with making it deactivate when a survivor does something: it encourages inactivity. I understand your thought process, but it would most likely result in people body blocking more frequently, which will most likely get them slugged and that is not something we need more of, or it will result with them specifically getting back into a chase when they should be getting on a generator.
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@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1179013#Comment_1179013
Well, I have had my own views on reworking the game, which I've only published the killer side off so far, so I dont know if you'd agree with any of those views(they are mainly about game mechanic alterations and perks affected by that), but as for this list:
BBQ is risky in the sense that to ensure it, you need to hook the survivors as soon as you can, even hunting down a survivor you might not have seen all game. To ensure the full 100% BP, you would need to switch targets oftenly. As a killer, that means hook order of 1,2,3,4. This means you need to spend at least 1 minute per survivor in chase. While a survivor is being chased, other survivors are doing gens, with 3 people on a single gen taking less than 1 minute. This pretty much means that if you want to ensure the 100% BP bonus, you would pretty much ensure 5 gens being done before you can even injure the 4th survivor. Sure, 75% extra BP is still nice, but bloodpoints are practically worthless for any main player anyway. I mainly use bloodpoints to gather more addons and items on a survivor as the only perks I still need are perks that are currently practically useless(quentin perks in general) or from new survivors. The only reason I would have to level up survivors further, is to get the prestige clothing, which, with all current cosmetics, isnt even that special anymore as I'd be losing all the perks I gained for a piece of clothing that doesnt help me out(except for blendette). Same applies to killers, with the current state of the game, its neccesary for people to gain more BP to be able to get the perks they need against survivors. The only issue I have with BBQ, is that in addition of the 100% extra BP, it gives an aura reading. Which is incredibly useful. WGLF doesnt have anything besides the 100% extra bloodpoints, which you can only get from protection hits OR from safe unhooks, both are quite limited if you want the 4 stack. Personally, I'd give players a slight speedboost at the start of a chase based on tokens, in addition of any exhaustion perk.
As for my other issues, I am assuming these are all reworks rather than additions(in which case, a lot of the perks are too strong):
Dejavu is simply a start up perk for starting players, a lot of bad killer perks also are simply a starting perk for new players. Making it super complex doesnt give people a reason to use it. Especially because its too hard to use as an early player, and as an experienced player, you can do all that was added without even needing the perk. Personally, I'd add the function on Dejavu of being able to place a beacon similar to the map addon, to show other players where you are or where something is.
Sole Survivor is a bit of a though one, as it already recieved a buff lately(being range based instead of % based). Sole Survivor already fully counters All Seeing "Blood" from wraith as soon as someone dies, will counter perma T1 and T2 myers while being a T1 perk. Fully counters I'm All Ears after 2 deaths as a T3 perk and 3 deaths on a T2 perk. (here is basically a list of things SS can counter, not all of it tho, as it includes gen aura's etc too, but still, its a lot) On most maps, you can even be completely invisible with SS against BBQ. I might agree that people being slugged should work with this, to have another perk that counters slugging builds other than Unbreakable, but increasing the range of it will literally make it the strongest perk as you're removing any aura reading perks with only 1 person downed/killed. Adding the haste to it, might be a nice thing if it has 3 full stacks tho, other than that, it would essentially be another exhaustion perk.
Up The Ante, actually is unique, in that the luck from Up The Ante also affects item loot, where Vigo's lips does not. And it stacks, meaning that if everyone runs it, you'd have a 36% luck increase, including chest loot and possible addons. I personally would like see it increased slightly, perhaps 3/4/5%, but giving it increased action speed for any amount of seconds, in combination with resilience and spinechill, means you can vault before the killer can even lunge for X amount of seconds. I might see it giving it a temporary luck boost after a gen is done, meaning you'd need to rush to a chest to actually use that luck.
Calm Spirit is actually quite a decent perk. Because a lot of highly skilled killers can see a crow fly away and KNOW someone is there. Allowing them to inspect it if they dont see any scratch marks. So preventing it from taking off is actually quite good, better than a lot of survivors think(honestly, exhaustion perks excluded, I think Iron Will, Calm Spirit, Spine Chill and Unbreakable/Decisive Strike are amongst the strongest solo survivor perks right now). The only addition I'd see to it, is giving it a 25/50/75% chance of not screaming when you otherwise would. Which might even be too strong.
Boil Over is fine, but base wiggling should affect killer movements a lot more. Perhaps adding a timer reduction with 1 second per tier instead of changing it to reducing seconds
Ace In The Hole, like I said before, Up The Ante already gives people increased chest loot luck while people are alive. Making this into a perk that gives people increased chest loot luck while people are dead, is basically giving survivors free keys if they use Ace In The Hole with Up The Ante once 2 people died. I'd personally like the idea more that the killer basement would spawn a key if the killer closes the hatch rather than giving more perks to make finding keys even easier.
Detective's Hunch, you're basically turning it into a buffed Small Game. Besides, Detective's Hunch is based on Map abilities. To add in traps and lockers means to buff maps aswell. I might agree with the lockers being added tho, as there is no real locker reading aura. I get why you wanted chests out, since Plunderer's Instinct is much better at that, but Plunderers Instinct is more about the chest loot, while Detective's Hunch is more about objective locations.
Open Handed: I agree with the aura range increase, but its a bit unknown if it includes "negative" aura reading, like Sole Survivor. Personally, I rather have Open Handed increase the aura range based on map size. Like, 8 meters on small maps, 12 on medium and 16 meters on large maps. The dev's need to start accounting for mapsize rather than just whacking in some meters and expect it to be good enough. Sole Survivor currently is a bit too strong on small maps. Especially in combination with OoO.
Streetwise, kinda agree, but it would need the same reduction that Spine Chill has. Because any great skill check benefits people a lot. They already nerfed toolboxes a lot, buffing them again by giving more skill checks with no reduction would pretty much counteract the nerfing they did.
Wake Up I also agree with, as its supposed to counter Remember Me. Perhaps even 5/15/25%
Tenacity might add a bit more movement speed too so that you can actually juke the killer with TBH. Any noise generated while on the floor already gives you away, let aside that you should be able to instantly crawl away. As for the addition you gave, I think that actually should go to No Mither instead. Tenacity is about floor movement speed while recovering and no picking up(although, I think it should do it once, like Unbreakable), Unbreakable is about recovery speed(which IMO should be 5% faster) and No Mither is about picking yourself up over and over again while giving reduced sounds, although, I do agree that it shouldnt give you a visible broken status at the start of the match, or at least introduce more strong perks that also start with a broken status, but give a ton of wiggling boost if they are picked up right after they are downed, so that killers have no clue if they can pick themselves up or free themselves easily, or both. Leaving killers literally with a conundrum if they should pick the survivor up or leave them be for a while.
Pharmacy: funny, actually, because you've literally described how the perk works, except you added a token to it, which implies that you could use it not to get an emergency medkit. Which might have some form of playstyle I guess, but the whole downside is supposed to be that you get a specific item out of it. I get that this gives it better synergy with Plunderers Instinct, but you can still 99% every chest in the map and have someone else run Plunderers to do the final 1%. I dont get why you would add a token to it, as pharmacy is not really meant to be a solo play perk in the first place.
Hope: Originally, Hope was meant to counter NOED. So personally I rather see the time being indefinite untill the EGC starts.
The only addition I can see with Technician, is that it would include other noises and a lingering effect. Which would be nice.
Solidarity is actually quite a nice perk, using Tokens instead is a bit odd. Because what counts as healing someone up? Healing someone after they've already been healed 99% by someone else? Because that would be mean to the person who healed them up 99%. Solidarity is meant to be ran with other perks, like We'll Make It, to reduce the time to being healed as much as possible. Adding Tokens would require so much more than a simple conversion. I might want it buffed to 2/3rds rather than 1/2, because its meant to counter sloppy butcher, and right now, its not doing a great job at that. I do understand that healing someone else while healthy makes this perk a bit useless, but perhaps it should give a healing boost to others while you are fully healthy. Which would mean either a boost while healthy, or a 2/3rds ratio while injured, not both, obviously.
Second Wind already does what you're describing. It activates once you heal the equivalent of one healthstate, regardless if you heal another survivor or not. Personally, I would add in personal recovery rate in this. Meaning that if you use unbreakable and pick yourself up, Second Wind could activate.
At least, that includes all the buffs/changes to the current meta. Considering Devs want to change things up in giving solo survivors the same info as a full SWF team can do, including information that OoO will give, there will be a lot of meta changes too. I still need to make my post about what I would like to see in a new meta survivor side, but I guess I'll see you around when I do too.
Predated,
Thank you for the responses, I'm glad you brought some of these points up. I did, however, notice some problems with some of your arguments that I would like to address.
BBQ and WGLF: Playing a good killer means being willing to chase for a little bit in order to get the down. You can't patrol generators and expect to win the game, or at the very least expect the game to end within the next half hour. As for getting better perks against survivors, one my goals with the rest of Dear Dead By Daylight is to make killers less of a joke and less reliant on addons and perks, even though they should still be somewhat important. The tokens are harder to get for We're Gonna Live Forever, but that doesn't really make it worth that 100% BP, at least not more than BBQ. Additionally, there are several other bloodpoint related perks that have a lot less power and a lot less bloodpoints, so I feel it would make sense to put both of these perks on level with perks like Beast of Prey, Distressing, or No One Left Behind.
Deja vu: I'm not even sure new survivors use it for how much of a meme it is. As for the rest, perhaps simplifying the process of using it could be better, but my goal with these changes was to make all perks at least slightly viable in higher ranks.
Sole Survivor: While it does successfully counter all of those, most of those are situational and so is the perk. Additionally, it nearly encourages non altruistic gameplay which, if recent chapters have shown, is not what the devs want, nor should they. I wouldn't want to die on the first hook every game. If it were more available before your allies get killed, it would work a lot more often and be a lot less situational.
Up The Ante: I have no idea where you're getting those numbers. If all the survivors brought in Vigo's Salty Lips and brought in Up the Ante, which is a pretty big if, the total would be 24%. Even then, luck is perhaps one of the most underused and least important statistics in the game. I do work to make luck more important in the main document, but not enough to make luck that important. Furthermore, spine chill doesn't apply to those kinds of action speeds. Sure that would be 24% vaulting speed, but that's only a little under a quarter and you have to be injured and it only lasts for 35 seconds. It could be a little strong, but not that bad. Also a luck boost wouldn't help much either.
Calm Spirit: I know that not startling crows is important at higher levels, but the perk also promises to stifle screams: "Your calm spirit can overcome the urge to scream." I just want it to fulfill its end of the bargain most of the time. Hook screams just help other survivors know where you are, so it becomes more of a detriment.
Boil Over: I have no idea what you mean with the timer reduction, but a very minor boost to the movement hinderance wouldn't be bad. I have also been informed that the 1 second could be too much with other perks. Perhaps that little boost is all it needs after all, so thanks.
Ace In The Hole: Ace in the Hole doesn't give more luck with items, it just offers the possibility of addons with your loot. In fact the luck stat doesn't even apply to chests. Also, most killers camp hatch anyway instead of closing it. Even if it did, you'd have to be very lucky and very prepared in order for things to work just right. I was actually in a game that was similar: one survivor with a key died leaving it behind, killer had NOED, last one alive, killer closed hatch and started patrolling the doors, managed to get the key and open the hatch with maybe 3 seconds to spare. It was very intense and would be too situational. Also, as someone who runs plunderer's instinct a lot, you're usually more likely to find a map or very food medkit over a key anyhow.
Detective's Hunch: Maps are pretty underpowered as is. Also technically yes, it would work like small game, but it would only work if you had a map or everytime the generator activates. It'd be stronger, but a little more situational, so I think it would balance out.
Open Handed: Maps are pretty underused as is and I'm not sure a minor map buff would help bring open handed up enough to be usable. Additionally, I should specify that it does not apply to Sole Survivor either, thank you.
Streetwise: Spine chill offers a secondary purpose of knowing if the killer is coming in your direction which is really strong as is. It also only decreases the success zone, not the great skill zone. At least as far as I am aware.
Wake Up: 5/15/25% maybe a little too much, but I appreciate the enthusiasm.
Tenacity, Unbreakable, and No Mither: I think that it would be best to keep these all distinct and, thus, it may be best for me to list what I personally think all of their purposes are. Tenacity is for stealth/getting away if you are slugged, Unbreakable is for recovering faster and getting a second chance, and No Mither is like a more dangeroud version of unbreakable, giving you the potential for more chances, but for the cost of having less chances in other places. I think that Unbreakable is fine as it is, Tenacity needs just a minor buff to hold up the stealth and escape element, and No Mither needs a different kind of disguise. While more permanent broken perks would help disguise it, they are extremely niche. If it were to allow you to escape quicker, it would only encourage slugging more, or, if nothing else, would need a cooldown.
Pharmacy: Emergency Health Kits aren't always what you want and you may want it at a later time, so giving the choice would probably better realize its potential.
Hope: End game is usually over by the time Hope runs out. At the very least the doors are usually open, so it already fills the goal timewise just fine.
Technician: Thank You.
Solidarity: You're quite right, I should have specified the equivalent of 1 health state per token. I think giving a buff to healing while healthy would be redundant and the 2/3rds would be too powerful if they didn't have sloppy butcher. Even then it's a conversion of percentage not time, so it would heal you at the same rate.
Second Wind: It says it works like that, but it's more complicated. You need to heal 1 survivor from unhealed injured to healthy without anyone helping. The chances of that happening are ridiculously low. There's usually been progress or another survivor, even if you use something like we'll make it.
I do appreciate you looking into this and making sure that I've got everything in order. Your feedback was really helpful and I hope to hear from you in the future Predated.
NorMak
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@KingFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1178922#Comment_1178922
That makes it even worse. Double BP is a great perk and should mostly remain untouched.
I realize bloodpoint gain can be a problem for survivors, but the solution should not be a perk, similar to how camping is a problem that should not be fixed with a perk. Bloodpoint gain itself should to be reworked and bloodpoint gain modifications should be minimal with a minor backlash at worst or, in the case of perks, accompanied by a decent ability since it takes up a perk slot.
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@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1178627#Comment_1178627
Vigil too strong? you do realize that back in the day, exhaustion went down regardless if you were running or not? I do disagree with a lot of perks here(especially since both BBQ and WGLF are both meant to reward the player for being risky, altho WGLF should have an additional effect, like BBQ also does).
I appreciate you defending my decision on Vigil, but I don't think BBQ awards you for playing risky, it rewards you for playing fair.
I think the idea was that BBQ was added to stop people from camping by offering a ridiculous incentive AND a very good perk wrapped in one. I plan to (hypothetically) nerf BBQ in both power and bloodpoint gain, so this change was meant to balance that out as well as giving new power to it. Also, in a later article I list out plans to increase natural bloodpoint gain for survivors since it's a tad unbalanced in the bloodpoint department.
Though, what other changes did you have issues with Predated? I would really like to know what else I can improve on.
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@Blazelski said:
Cannibal: I like it all, pretty much. Award winning chili being .05 seconds faster than the regular chili addon makes it indistinguishably better, so something needs changing there. I don't understand the allure of noise reduction addons. Either he's in your terror radius and you need to be careful, or he's not and it doesn't matter. Potato sack needs to grant +100% bloodpoints in the Deviousness category instead.
Clown: I don't really understand this change. How are survivors going to stay in the gas long enough for the tier system to matter? My guess is that they aren't. They'll recover fairly quickly and fairly easily. Needs either some other additional changes, better explained mechanics/reasoning, or a completely different concept.
Demogorgon: Needs to either be able to place portals in slightly smaller areas, or have quiet footsteps, or both. That's all, but you're right that he's mostly in a good place.
Ghostface: The Fakers idea is probably a bust. Might cause a second of caution from the survivor, but they will be about as confusing as an illusionary Doctor. A killer standing still near no one else is a dead giveaway, and if Ghostfaces started doing that to "blend in," they'd get punished by gen rushing. I like the idea of the total rework, though! Even the addons seem good!
Hag: I'm sorry you find her so annoying to go against, but I don't share the sentiment. I don't think she necessitates Urban Evasion either. I'm staunchly against her traps being more obvious without serious buffs to compensate. People running and tripping all her traps when she picks up a survivor or is in a chase with another survivor is already an abundant counterplay and very real problem for the Hag. Maybe if you came up with something specific, I'd like it.
Hillbilly: I personally like the change. It's a relatively minor nerf that shouldn't bother most hillbillies. I think reducing his movement speed to 110% is probably a little too much, and this is coming from someone who hates going against Billy. Maybe after chainsawing, his movement speed is reduced to 110% for as much time as they traveled with their chainsaw, unless they burn-out or bump into an object.
Huntress: I think you got your words mixed up here, and the idea is mostly lost as a result. I'd take another look and make sure this section is comprehensible.
Legion: Loving the idea behind the Recruitment power. I'm going to suggest some changes: When the Legion kicks a generator, breaks a pallet, checks a locker, or hits a survivor, any survivors in your terror radius gain a rage token unless they are in a locker. The rage tokens are visible to survivors, and cannot be gotten rid of for 10 seconds after gaining one. Fast vaulting or throwing a pallet gets rid of one rage token. The pallet breaking after 5 seconds occurs whenever a survivor with a rage token throws or vaults a pallet in a chase. Rather than the mirror idea, survivors can also get rid of rage tokens by hiding in a locker to calm down. For every 5 seconds spent in a locker, lose one rage token. Whenever a survivor with at least one rage token begins healing or repairing, their icon begins to shake until they stop. When this happens, the Legion can press the secondary power button to play his cassette player, causing any survivors with shaking icons to have their next skill check instantly fail and their icon to stop shaking for 15 seconds, spending one rage token on any affected survivors. Any survivor with 3 rage tokens is Exposed and wears an illusory Legion masks until they lose a rage token. I'd keep your change to locker reveals and feral frenzy.
I may come back and continue my critique later.
These are some great critiques! I'm glad that you, for the most part, like the changes. I do agree with the Cannibal 100% deviousness change since that's how most killers' bloodpoint perks are, as well as the Legion additions (Btw those are incredible and clean up things a lot while keeping the main idea intact, thank you), but I did want to mention a few things. 1.) I've been timing how most competitive players (and even noncompetitive) players on youtube run clowns and they don't spend a whole lot of time consecutively in the gas, but their pauses are extremely brief. I think this would cause a lot of tier 3 downs or, at the very least, a lot more effectiveness in cutting off loops. 2.) You're probably right on the whole fakers thing, but no one seems to share the sentiment of changing Ghostface's power completely. I prefer the new power, but everyone I talk to says that Ghostface's base power is fine, so I made something that could keep the base gameplay the same with some more things that could make things more interesting for survivors. 3.) I'm still playing around with the Hag changes and I'm not sure what I will or won't add to the main document just yet, but I will keep in mind your input. 4.) Thanks for the heads up on Demo and Huntress, I guess he could use an itty bitty buff and she could use some better explaining. All in all, thanks for all the input my dude. I appreciate it!
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@Lightpkm said:
Boil over, slippery meat together would hurt the killers alot and vigil would be too strong.
There are combos that hurt killers infinitely worse, but I do understand your concern. The only thing is that they are both virtually useless right now and wiggle timers are what they focus on. What if Boil over made killers 5% slower while carrying a survivor in addition to the increased effect of wiggling? I know it's essentially the same in effect, but if killers can make a perfect carry build like mad grit, iron grasp, agitation, ect. Then there should be a little bit of pushback.
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@KingFrost said:
That's a HUGE Nerf to We're Gonna live Forever. Survivors need a double bloodpoint perk like BBQ+Chili.
In killer perk nerf, BBQ gets a massive debuff as well, so don't worry about it.
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I've been posting hot takes on killers and, soon, other stuff for about 2 months now. It's called Dear Dead By Daylight, you should check it out. Here's the most recent post:
#Shamelessplug #Actuallyshamefulplug
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1175635#Comment_1175635
Longer recharging is free gen time..SNES already got 110 speed..and now that you can walk through her theres more jokes she has to deal with..plus scratches are already buggy, dont appear on grass, and are delayed so they are terrible tracking overall..take sound tracking from her and spirit will be a chore to play..iron will already makes her life miserable..this would essentially give it for free
I made this particular part of the document a while ago, so it may be a tad outdated. I hadn't faced many Spirits recently, so I hadn't realized there was such a problem, but I'm beginning to think she needs a buff more than a nerf. I do think what the developers have done to her so far was reasonable, but there needs to be some counterbalancing. I do stand by my decision to make survivor groans omnipotent, but what if they were only heard in two levels, one where they are normally heard and stay at one volume and one when you're really close that is much louder, kind of like a miniature, more precise whispers? And/or, what if footsteps were louder and more directional: running being 65% louder, walking 20%, and crouching remaining the same? I definitely should add that the passive phasing in her walking animation should be removed and probably remove the recharge time extension, unless the max duration was extended for phase walk. I'm not sure, what do all of you think?
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1175635#Comment_1175635
Longer recharging is free gen time..SNES already got 110 speed..and now that you can walk through her theres more jokes she has to deal with..plus scratches are already buggy, dont appear on grass, and are delayed so they are terrible tracking overall..take sound tracking from her and spirit will be a chore to play..iron will already makes her life miserable..this would essentially give it for free
Upon further inspection, I had made Spirit's changes a while ago and they may be outdated. I haven't seen many Spirits in recent games, so I hadn't known if she was balanced or not. I think that she might need a buff, but I think the existing changes to her have been warranted. I do stand by my idea to make the sound tracking omnidirectional, but perhaps the grunts could be heard closer like a more precise version of whispers. I also should add the removal of her passive phasing in her walking animation as it has annoyed many players I know of. What if while phase walking footsteps were louder as well, crouching being the same volume, walking being 20% louder, and running being 65% louder? I'm not sure, what do all of you think?
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@immortalls96 said:
Well the spirit change will successfully kill her off I suppose..doc one is kinda neat tho
First, I am very much impressed with how fast you read this. Second, thank you on the Doctor one. Third, what part of the spirit changes would kill her off specifically and why do you think it would?
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@finitethrills said:
This just made me realize dbd doesn't have a prototypical stoner dude
I mean, quentin is addicted to adrenaline, Claudette's all about those herbs, Ace has probably smoked his fair share of doobies at the casinos, Nea looks like a meth addict, and Bill won't stop smoking that cigarrette even when he's getting shot through the mouth, so... I think between all of them, we have the equivalent of one stoner, right?
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@TAG said:
Wrong section. Belongs in the bug reporting section.
Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UsOr5_PTBY
Can't help but be reminded of the fishing mini-game from Mario Party. :P
Thank you, someone else gave me a recommendation, but I wasn't entirely sure where/how to get to the right section. Also, that's hilarious.
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@SquidFacedMan said:
Hag is fine. There are plenty of killers that need reworked. The 1 second per 10 meters change is ridiculously stupid and would nerf her into the ground. Teleport range isn't even that far without add ons.
She's a jumpscare killer that works. If anything her animations need reworked, not her playstyle.
Well, I have stated above why her gameplay is off, but you brought up an interesting point about teleport distance SquidFacedMan, thus I have just ran some numbers, not only to support my claims here, but also my claim about changing Barbecue and Chili (separate document pending). According to a new chart I have put on the document, the average size of a map is 9,865 meters squared which comes up to about 97.6 meters a side if we were to compact the maps into simple squares (which many already are). Doing some more math reveals that the center of the map is roughly 48.85 meters from all sides of the map. We haven't been given an easy way to measure meters in game, but my guess would be that 10 meters is most likely the buffer area around the map that has nothing of worth on it unless you're on one of the swamp maps. Most of the important stuff (and especially the high priority generators) are in the center of the map, meaning killers will most likely spend the most time there and with a movement speed of 4.4 meters per second and phantasm traps lasting 5.5 seconds when activating, that means they will be able to travel 24.2 meters closer to their trap once it has been activated, which is more than double the above listed bumper. Add in range and duration addons as well as more clustered maps like The Game or Lery's, and the ability to chain up to 10 traps, she becomes virtually omnipresent.
Even without the numbers, my above points about ideal versus reality in terms of gameplay and counterplay stand. Though I'm curious on your issues with her animation and would love to hear more. I really appreciate you bringing up your concerns and making sure I do my research SquidFacedMan and I hope to hear more from you.
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@Rezblaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1122229#Comment_1122229
Yes. Please, buff the Clown.
Sorry, I kept you waiting, but here it is:
Go ahead and tell me what you think over there.
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@KrispiesChicken said:
I'm not into a lot of scary movies so I don't know a good majority of the probably licensed killers out there, but I'm really hoping for one to be added that's actually terrifying, creepy, and makes the hairs on your neck stand. Let's be honest, for a horror game. No one is actually scared of the killer.
I personally go "awwww" when the killer keeps failing a mind game
The reason none of the killers are intimidating is because they're underpowered and aren't given the proper tools or graphics to be legitimately scary to experienced players, but I still kinda see your point.
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If you play it right, you can get some nasty plays with it on Wraith. You know, given it isn't taken out in the first 5 seconds. If they're focus is on the skill check and you have the ghost, bone clapper, or coxcombed clapper addons, you can get some easy grabs or at least some pretty decent hits.
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Hey everyone,
I understand I've been dormant for a while, but that's partially due to an unrelated project to this as well as attempting to workshop these changes as well as a new set of changes to Huntress, but before I tried to come up with anything in detail, I was hoping I could pitch some of the possible ideas and what could and couldn't work. I have been watching Hag tutorial guides and how she is supposed to work in theory since her theory and her reality are disjointed. As far as I've found, the ideal of her play and counterplay should be similar to Trapper's, but as Hag's traps are practically unavoidable in a chase, the mind games should be in whether or not she is going to teleport. It's a matter of calling the bluff, probably explaining why she was released with Ace. In order to reach this ideal, I propose the following changes be made:
"Her distance from the traps when they activate change how long it takes for her to teleport to her traps, adding approximately 1 second per 10 meters of distance. Additionally, the trap teleportation window lasts 1 second longer per 10 meters away. You can start teleporting at any time during that window and still complete the teleport. Remove the loud noise notification from your trap being activated, but show the trap's aura and have the survivor's screams reveal themselves like a doctor shock. Lower the number of traps available to 8 and increase her movement speed to 115%. Remove how traps reorient the camera. Finally, remove most of the addons that change base stats of traps and replace them with more addons that change how the traps work. Examples would be that one addon would re-add the quality that makes traps disorient survivor cameras and another addon that would make the survivor who triggered the trap's vision blurry as if affected by The Afterpiece Tonic without the hindered effect for a few seconds. More addons that change the mechanics and purpose of the traps instead of their base stats could add a lot more fear and tactility on both sides. Probably reduce the setting time to a base 1.5 seconds and leave 1 uncommon setting time addon that further reduces setting time."
This is by no means an "official" change to the fix notes, but they're ideas I've been playing around with and was wondering what all of you thought. I am more than willing to go into further detail and design more weird addons to make her kit more interesting if you guys think it'd make her more balanced.
Thank you again,
NorMak3
P.S. I don't know if I'm just posting these at a bad time or something, but I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on multiple of these separate articles and would really appreciate if you took a look at them. I'm going to post the Cannibal/Bubba changes here and that has links to the other ones that haven't gotten a whole lot of attention. If you have the time, please let me know what you think. Thank you again!
Cannibal/Bubba changes:
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Hey everyone,
I understand I've been dormant for a while, but that's partially due to an unrelated project to this as well as attempting to workshop these changes as well as a new set of changes to Hag, but before I tried to come up with anything in detail, I was hoping I could pitch some of the possible ideas and what could and couldn't work. I have played Huntress some more to get a better understanding of her and what I could do to keep the high skill cap on Huntress while making it more plausible to keep up a chase with her. Additionally, I noticed that her power was extremely centrally located. Her power isn't overpowered necessarily, but that it had tunnel vision. It is good at ending the chase, but she has very little in other areas. In order to compensate for this, I propose the following changes be made:
"Her hatchets naturally put someone in the dying state from the injured state, but charging up her hatchets to a certain amount dependent on her distance from the survivor will cause the survivor to simply go into the dying state from injured. This would probably be a steady increase from 90% when they are directly in front of her, to a singular tap of the right mouse button from 10-12 meters away. Additionally, when a hatchet misses a survivor by 4 meters or less outside of her terror radius (can still be in the hum radius) and it has been charged up at least 50%, the survivor will scream and reveal their position. "
This is by no means an "official" change to the fix notes, but they're ideas I've been playing around with and was wondering what all of you thought.
Thank you again,
NorMak3
P.S. I don't know if I'm just posting these at a bad time or something, but I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on multiple of these separate articles and would really appreciate if you took a look at them. I'm going to post the Cannibal/Bubba changes here and that has links to the other ones that haven't gotten a whole lot of attention. If you have the time, please let me know what you think. Thank you again!
Cannibal/Bubba changes:
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@TTVfbYTigTW said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1127203#Comment_1127203
Iridescent head is more of a problem for solo queue, I'll give you that. Granted it gets you first downs more easily, but it's mainly an issue because people bother to heal. Iri Huntress has 3 hatchets, max. Can more easily turn her into an M1 huntress and now she's down 2 hatchets from base (which is why you don't see Ralph, Umbra, etc running Iri)
Thanks for the feedback TTVfbYTigTW, Part of the reason I think these changes would help is to keep chases fun and interesting. Early game iridescent downs are most likely why I put Iridescent head in the spotlight, but AhoyWolf had simply brought up the topic of frustrating addons in general. Do you have any opinions on the matter?
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@AhoyWolf said:
Why would you want to nerf Huntress? This is very bad idea, so instead of 2 hits you would need 3, why tho?
She is already one of the most balanced Killers, no need for base power changes, just addon changes.
I do think there's a problem with Huntress at base that I discuss with Onyx_Blue just above this (which, if you have ideas, I'm All Ears), but I hadn't thought about changing up her addons. Only Iridescent Head comes to mind as a problem, but are there any others that tend to be overly problematic?
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@Onyx_Blue said:
I'm seeing you power rework threads popping up a lot, i'm curious to know why you want to change powers so much?
This would destroy Huntress. And Hag's changes would make her a completely different killer. What got you thinking of these things?
I understand that the Hag changes were a little much and have been trying to figure out how I can modify the existing ability with people in the comments, but I haven't been successful in deriving the boons of Hag's power so that I can amplify those while removing what many survivors hate about hag.
In general, my ideas were in response to the level of toxicity seen in the community as well as the ubiquitous and painful experiences of both newer survivors and experienced killers alike. The game has become somewhat monotonous and my goal was to make it more interesting and exciting in general, specifically by taking out all the annoying strategies of killers and survivors that are seen in almost every game. I go into more detail on the main document, but for Huntress, my goal was to specifically remove the easy point blank shots of her hatchets that end the game so quickly. This was the best I could think of, but would you happen to have any ideas that would work better? I don't think she is okay as she is now, maybe at higher tiers she isn't great, but noob stomping is just as much a problem as killers struggling at high ranks, though both are problems. I could really use some help. Any ideas on what could help on both ends?
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@Archimedes5000 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1122881#Comment_1122881
Why would you trigger traps? After the trap is triggered, it disappears, Hag will not be able to use it anymore. She will have to go there and reset it. On big maps you can trigger them while she is out of range, so you are safe. Also, while she is carrying a survivior she cant do anything, you can use that time to clear up a path through the map.
Most of the time its just a calculation between wasting time crouching but being safe and running but risking getting caught.
Devour Hope is basically Hag's staple perk, it requires her to stay away and wait for the unhook before teleporting. So as a Hag you trap the hook, wait for it to trigger, wait for the unhook and then you teleport. Surviviors can abuse that by triggering the trap and not going for the unhook at all, making you wait for nothing and wasting a trap.
Other way counter her is Sprint Burst. You walk through a trap, and as soon as she teleports, you run away. With her 110% speed its going to be painful.
So Hags often wait for the survivior to waste whatever counterplay they have, and when they come back because they think you are out of range and get cocky, you suddenly teleport and smack them.
You can also ise flashlight to erase her traps, but you need to be smart about it or you will run out of battery. Well at least in theory... I think that the only change Hag needs is to make flashlight take more time to erase her traps. You can erase like 30 traps with one flashlight, its a bit too effective as a counter.
Those are some interesting points Archimedes, but I do still think there are some issues with being able to put these theories into practice. Firstly and probably most importantly is visibility. While it would be strategically sound to run through the map and disable all the traps as if you were playing against trapper, there are some maps that make the traps virtually invisible. Technically the trapper has an addon that can do that, but on the majority of maps, Hag is simply able to put down traps and they are practically not there.
I also think the number of traps she has access to can become overbearing if played on smaller maps, causing the majority of the time to be spent crouching which is still only 11% faster than crawling. I do recommend in the main document that crouching become slightly faster which may fix this point, but it still seems to slow down the game in a way that is boring and monotonous.
I'd say that the Devour Hope ideology is good, but some of her strongest builds don't even use Devour Hope. Additionally, that strategy only wastes time for the person on the hook and gets the killer in another chase. You would need communication with at least one other teammate to be ready to get that person off the hook once you are gone which takes a lot of time and resources, most of which survivors cannot afford.
As for Sprint Burst and Flashlights, it's fine to have Sprint Burst as a solid counter to Hag, but it shouldn't be one of the only plausible defenses against a killer. For example, Calm Spirit is a solid counter to Doctor (kind of), but it isn't the only way to be able to play around his power. For flashlights, you would have to be lucky enough to bring the right item or find the right item in a chest to be able to use that counter. I do suggest in the chapter idea to add a teachable that has something equivocal to a flashlight as a perk, but it is extremely situational.
I think that a good chunk of the theory behind Hag is good, but the reality doesn't match. Crouching everywhere isn't fun, you can't avoid traps due to visuals and how large the activation radius is on them, and the counterplay is shaky at best. If a Hag doesn't have Devour Hope and you don't have Sprint Burst, Urban Evasion, or a Flashlight on any map that isn't the Game, Hawkins, Lery's, or Ormond, there isn't much you can do except break your knees the whole game.
At least, that's how I see it. Is there something I'm not getting? Or do you think these could be a better list of issues I could try again to tackle in order to change up the Hag? I really appreciate your feedback, I'm starting to get a better picture of what I could do better for this list of changes.
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@Archimedes5000 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1121514#Comment_1121514
Hag forces you to decide when will you crouch and when will you risk triggering traps? Or maybe you will trigger traps on purpose? Will Hag teleport immediately or wait? What can you do to force her to do either?
I think Devour Hope and Make your Choice Hag is the most mindgameable killer in the game.
Thank you Archimedes and others for bringing up the convoluted nature of the new trap system. I still don't understand why you would ever trigger a trap on purpose though. If you are in a chase, perhaps its possible to get her to go to the wrong side of a loop, but in every other case it seems pointless, you either bring her closer to you or, if it's a good hag, she gets a minor annoyance in the form of a trap going off. You're better off repeatedly fast hiding in a locker. It's possible to get her to teleport to the wrong trap, but that is extremely situational since survivors aren't privy to another trap going off. Also, survivor crouch speeds are ridiculously slow and not fun to deal with unless you have urban evasion. It also doesn't help how many traps she can place near each other and near hooks as well as the range at which the traps can be set off, especially with addons.
Perhaps I'm looking at this wrong though, how do you mind game the Hag and when would you purposefully set off a trap or when would a Hag hesitate, but end up teleporting after hesitating?
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@Rezblaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1122229#Comment_1122229
Yes. Please, buff the Clown.
Don't you worry Rezblaze, there's a clown buff on the main document and I'll probably be posting his buffs separate from the rest in a couple of weeks.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Pls leave hag alone she's fine now >:(
Could you perhaps elaborate on why you enjoy about playing as and against Hag so I can better understand the community's view of her?
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@Kind_Lemon said:
ehh...I like The Hag's current power concept (save for the fact that traps triggered should simply replace the trap on the ground once the time expires. Traps would only be able to be destroyed by Flashlights or if certain add-ons such as Scarred Hand or Mint Rag are equipped.).
What do you mean with the whole replacement and add-on destruction ideas? I'm not sure I completely understand what you're getting at.
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@Kind_Lemon said:
Would it be possible to enable comments on the document?
I'm going to keep comments on the document itself disabled so that it doesn't become too clustered. Feel free to make any and all suggestions here in these comments.
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@Alonzo said:
Pretty much makes him useless. Stand still while stalking and power resets if it doesn't reach the next level? Thats just killing Myers. He already starts as a slow killer and takes time to build his power (unless using addons).
Upon further investigation, You're probably right. I'll leave a new list of change suggestions in this comment. My goal was to make him more scary since his slow approach is not very intimidating. Instead of preventing the walk, it would probably be a good idea to change his walking animation during stalking so it doesn't look so ridiculous. I still think that the option of 99ing his power should be negated. In order to do these, these are my new change suggestions:
"Change his walking animation to be unique instead of a slow version of regular movement. It makes him look like he’s walking on the moon and is kind of silly. Additionally, while stalking if you purposefully stop stalking between 95 and 100% of a new tier of Evil Within, it will return to 95% complete. This does not apply if you are stalking a survivor and the survivor leaves your sight lines. Additionally, if he is blinded while stalking, he lose 5% progress on Evil Within. That progress will return to whichever survivors he loses it from, so he will be able to gain the Evil Within progress back. If the progress lost would cause him to tier down, it only lowers it as much as possible without lowering its tier. Finally, change the Memorial Flower and the J. Myers Memorial to increase stalking speed while holding still."
Thank you for the feedback and sorry for the lack of immediacy on my response, I do still care about making sure these suggestions are balanced and fun, but I got a cold since I posted this and it has been kicking my butt. Tell me if this sounds any better. I'll try to post more often and thank you again.
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Hello, I've added my reasoning behind each of the suggested changes in the document as a whole for those who are wondering where I'm coming from. The Killer and gameplay changes have a brief synopsis paragraph before the actual changes and the perks have comments as to not fill up too much more room on the page. I have also fixed a few problems with formatting and clarity. I hope to be releasing these suggestions as multiple, more easily digestible articles in the near future. Thank you for all the feedback so far!
Sincerely,
NorMak3
P.S. I didn't put my reasoning for the new chapter ideas since they were new ideas altogether. If you think it would be a good idea to add reasoning on the new killer and survivor, please let me know.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
Stopped reading past you don't care about game balance. That's literally ALL I care about so I doubt my input would help much.
I'm really confused, what do you mean? I too care alot about game balance, I just don't have a perfect understanding of it. I generally know what I'm doing, but I just wanted to say that it probably isn't all perfect as the rest of the kind folk here have been bringing to my awareness. I would like to hear your input if you're still willing to give it.