Knockout cannot go live
Many loops are too short and sometimes you have to drop a pallet
to stun the killer and gain distance, but this perk is a lose-lose
situation for survivors.
You ran away? Killer just go around the pallet and catch up
easily, you decided to stay on the loop? Killers will blood lust until
they hit you because loops are shorter than lunges.
And is gonna be a
nightmare on S tier killers already, Nurse will blink just one to hit
you, killers like Kaneki, Billy, Blight, Singularity will be
unstoppable.
The perk lose the effect if killers break the pallet, but like I
said, they're just gonna bloodlust until they hit you because until you
dropped shack pallet, you're gonna be dead. And some killers doesn't
need to break the pallet to chase you.
Comments
yeah, and the pallet density update literally encourages pre-dropping, on many maps there's a large percentage of pallets that are totally unsafe and with ping always a question + certain killers requiring pre drop anyway BHVR created that practice… even worse the patch notes seem to blame players for the choice to leave pallets after dropping them.
I play Leatherface, I choose to play him without tunneling or camping but it's a fact he's built around tunneling and camping and even though he's one of the lower tier killers if you drop an unsafe pallet against Bubba early and he has Knockout you're dead now, it's just over… it was honestly not hard to catch people with knockout beforehand… it's currently in my perk setup for him… and Bubba is a weaker example. Hillbilly will absolutely catch you and it's not a debate.
Here's an example of a problem though: Almost everyone playing Bubba runs bamboozle… Shack is all of the sudden a "you're going to die and there's nothing you can do about it" loop when a bubba has Knockout + Bamboozle and oftentimes that's where the basement is…
It's just needlessly turning what little of a mindgame there was around filler pallets into a lose lose-lose situation for survivor against just about any killer… of course low tier killers will benefit from it but the killers that will benefit the absolute most will be the already movement and map control capable killers
Regardless of any of that a 400% buff on literally anything is outrageous… why would they go straight for 400% not even just double the previous number…
Make it so anyway you interact with the pallet it deactivates so regarding vaulting of kaneki and wesker.
And if the killer needs bloodlust to hit you they are losing the game.
You have a misunderstanding of the new design.
You have to move away from the pallet within 6 seconds to get the 20% hinder.
The killer cannot bloodlust you down during that time, as it takes 15 seconds for them to gain bloodlust 1. Additionally, if the killer is having to bloodlust you down, you're winning the chase regardless. Remember that you're trying to waste the killer's time, not necessarily actually escape the chase.
You also have a misunderstanding of the perk's design. If the killer breaks the pallet, the hinder doesn't trigger. In the Bubba shack situation, the Bubba has to destroy the pallet to resume the chase, thus it will not trigger Knock Out.
There are plenty of loops where dropping the pallet means it's time to go - are those pallets supposed to be killer resources now? Or are survivors supposed to keep running around those rock + pallet + birch tree loops after they've dropped the pallet?
Tried it yesterday, they should put a cooldown on knockout, but it is somewhat easy to counter, if it is a god pallet then you won't get slowed down, because the killer has to break it, which deactivates knockout and if it is a medium pallet then you can simply loop around the pallet once and enough time has passed to not get the hindered when leaving, it seems crazy on paper, but it is only gonna work on a few killers and on a few tiles
I Didn't misunderstand anything.
Pallet Density is Unsafe Pallets, pallets where when you consider ping and various different killer abilities, you pre drop them and run to the next thing ASAP if you don't get the stun. If I am playing Bubba, or Hillbilly I am not breaking that pallet, I am chasing you and you're getting caught. if BHVR wants people to play pallets then they need to stop adding pallets with no room for mindgames or playing potential.
I Specifically used Bamboozle + Knockout in my example for shack, the reason for this is because if you drop it, I will go through the window and keep you at shack, you will run around shack and re-vault the pallet which puts you inside shack with a bamboozled window where Bubba can catch you almost immediately as it takes very little time to chainsaw a pallet, OR you run away from shack and I just vault the window and catch you because 20% hinder is ridiculous.
The entire redesign is just senselessly removing an aspect of counterplay, holding W from a pallet IS valid counterplay and it's reinforced by the amount of killers that have almost guaranteed hits around a lot of these pallets. if BHVR doesn't want people to hold W they need to stop releasing killer powers that encourage people to hold W and fix pallet density so that it provides less pallets overall but more reasonable pallets. why do you think 5 moves ahead is so popular? it's because dropping a pallet without being able to move can outright get you hit around it on a lot of these pallet spawns.
BHVR has to stop punishing players with perk redesigns to make up for their poor game design, that's not how you balance a game.
It's evident in the actual patch notes too, I am not just imagining their sentiment:
??? Survivors arent looping around pallets because the pallets in question suck. fix the actual game, stop tweaking perks and making the game hell for people trying to play with the nightmare design that already exists.
I think my one concern with this perk is killers that can force you to leave a pallet shortly after it's been dropped, without actually breaking the pallet at all, like trap killers or killers who vault pallets. Saw an Artist using this yesterday and it didn't feel like there were a whole lot of options at certain tiles
Even as a killer main this perk is definitely quite oppressive. My suggestion is to increase the effect if they move I don't know 15m or 20m away instead of just 10m. Or to reduce the duration of Hinder to just 2 or 3 seconds.
This MUST not go live as it is right now.
In this scenario, you are basically forced to either take a hit or go down no matter what. 20% Hindered for 5 seconds is absurd, survivors literally can't move.
Killers that force you to abandon loops (like Artist, Dredge, or Knight) already exist, and the optimal play for survivors is precisely to leave the area. Forcing a guaranteed hit in these situations is completely unfair and bad game design.
Why wouldn't the survivor just vault the pallet back into shack if they see you vault the window?
Like that's not even a "the killer has knock out and so I must stay here" thing it's just what the survivor would do if they see you try to outplay shack pallet like this. It's called a god pallet for a reason, you must kick it to resume the chase.
You gotta read what I say before replying…
"it takes very little time to chainsaw a pallet" you already don't want to drop a pallet and be on the inside of shack most of the time because rather than trapping the killer in, you're trapping yourself in. if the window is bamboozled, and I chainsaw the pallet, you won't be out of the door before I am behind you. and remember this is the Strongest example. Knockout doesn't even help the killer on true god pallets, it makes already weak pallets outright unplayable…
I'm using Bubba in examples because I play him and Know I could easily get a free kill at shack with KO + Bamboozle but what about myers? it takes him even less time to shred that pallet, if you get trapped in shack with a bamboozled window because you're trying to avoid Knockout you're dead…
What about The Blight? the point of specifically trapping blight in the shack is because it's hard for blight players to gain on you without breaking the pallet but by that time you have time to run away from shack and get to a resource, in the case of Knockout you can't leave shack. or the worse scenario, what about blight on a filler pallet? you already have to leave because if the blight hits you around the filler pallet and then uses their power they can run you down even in your movement speed boosted state.
The Nurse? 20% slower movement because you did what you literally have to do and hold W away?
The Ghoul? you pre drop the pallet, they play around it, get their first free hit which is built into their kit, and you run away from the pallet and get a 20% hinder???
By the way the only deactivation constraint is "if you break the pallet" so if you het a survivor who is vaulting as its extremely easy to do on filler pallets, and they do the objectively right thing and use the speed boost for distance they then get 20% hindred for 5 entire seconds? absolutely ridiculous.
This is exactly what I meant in a post I made two days ago. If you play the role of a survivor a lot, you will know just by reading the description of this perk that it is a very bad design and susceptible to misuse by some killers.
It's perk that holding the killers hand instead of helping them.
Out of all of the killers you just mentioned, the only one who is likely to run it is Ghoul, as they can use their vaulting power to outplay god pallets like the one in Garden of Joy's house, for example.
Yeah, the more i think about it the more i would prefer it being a base 10% hindered but not be affected by pallet breaks. It would actually be useful against god pallets then.
The fact that Bubba IS good at sawing through pallets is what I am talking about, you have to understand that when you're playing in anything other than brand new player MMR everyone knows Bubba chews up pallets, that's why people are so inclined to drop them and… leave if they do that, they are immediately caught with the new knockout. it removes the entire point of smaller pallets being a mindgame.
That's even more of a reason that this perk change is a problem. if you're usually dead, with new Knockout you're definitely dead. and if you DO get the stun on him, you are even less rewarded on distance which is extremely important. Holding W is a practice BHVR created with their own Map and Killer Design, KO will turn hold W situations into Lose Lose situations for survivors. it's damned if I do and damned if I don't around like the most central PvP element in the game. "if I stay at this pallet I am definitely getting hit around it so I have to leave" is met with [20% hindered] for FIVE SECONDS Sprint burst is only 2 seconds. and even when it was properly balanced at 3 seconds a 20% Hinder will be present for nearly twice as long. this also greatly diminishes Smash Hit and Lithe as options for making distance on the other side of a pallet.
gaining distance to get to the next loop/pallet is the core gameplay in DBD, you're not playing wrong for seeking that out lol that's ridiculous. I am talking specifically about unsafe pallets, of which there are a LOT. if you drop some of them without 5 moves ahead, it's entirely possible to get hit by the killer before you can even move again, and if not then, immediately afterwards, if you then run away from the pallet towards the next one, you will get 20% hindered for 5 seconds which is outrageous.
in high MMR? no… they aren't going to drop pallets to get away from a nurse, in Medium and low MMR? they absolutely are, I play the Nurse in 2v8 and people will genuinely drop a pallet for anything (I Know 2v8 is not a fair estimation of how 1v4 games play out, the point is that 2v8 has no MMR and lower MMR survs will drop pallets right away) so that's another problem of its own… disproportionately effecting mid-low MMR. Ranged killers fall into this same category.
there are other things that weren't clarified that could be extremely problematic as well KO + Spirit Fury / Dissolution come to mind first. AFAIK Dissolution did not work with KO but I am unsure about Spirit Fury, and even if they don't either of those two perks together totally counters looping pallets. if you try to stun the killer you get the eventual spirit fury, if you try to pre drop and stay at the pallet because of KO, there's a likely Dissolution in your future.
People leave the pallet versus him because he's already swinging his chainsaw and is about to saw through the pallet, in which case Knock Out will not trigger as he destroyed the pallet. It's pretty hard for Bubba to get hits at dropped pallets except at extremely unsafe 50/50s. He's better at chewing through map resources and creating deadzones.
Also, he's, like… one of the weakest killers in the game, I don't really know why we're handwringing over concern that he might be slightly less bad. He has no map mobility or pressure, he can only create pressure by getting fast downs.
Again, the perk doesn't work if the killer breaks the pallet, and the perk doesn't trigger until you move 10 meters away from the dropped pallet. For a size comparison that is the radius of a Skull Merchant drone's scan area. If it's an unsafe 50/50 then not much changes, you either have something else to run to right next to it or you die anyway, same as on live, assuming Myers didn't use how insanely strong Slaughtering Strike is against 50/50 pallets to just down you immediately. If it's a strong pallet then you can still play that versus Myers. If it's a god pallet and you stunned him out of Slaughtering Strike, he's already mashing the break pallet button during the stun animation.
Welcome to Blight and Ghoul. You play the pallet, doesn't matter how bad it is. Trying to run won't help you. You have to make them break the pallet.
You're better off trying to greed these pallets in a lot of situations and hope the killer respects. You're going to get hit at 50/50s a lot of the time no matter what. They're bad pallets which you use if you have literally nothing else. If you're healthy and get hit, you use that speed burst to hopefully make it to something else before the Blight or Ghoul catches right back up to you anyway, doesn't matter if they have Knock Out or not. I don't know why either of these killers would ever run a perk designed to make it harder for survivors to play for distance when they don't care about survivors playing for distance.
…it's Nurse versus medium and low MMR survivors. She wins unless she's bad at Nurse. She's not going to run a perk that counters a map resource she doesn't care about to begin with and especially not to try to counter survivors she's going to beat without it anyway. It'd be like running Bamboozle on her, it just doesn't matter.
If the pallet breaks, you don't get the Knock Out hinder. Period, the end, doesn't matter how the pallet breaks. Also you're devoting 3/4 of your perks at that point to chase perks, I would really hope that you're oppressive in the 1v1 at that point. And Dissolution just got nerfed in this same PTB to only trigger from basic attacks.
maybe i'm wrong but this perk seems like it won't be very consistent
The issue being that even one killer like ghoul who can use this automatically means the perk needs a total rework or massive nerf. Since all perks are available to all killers it being broken on one killer means the perk is broken and needs to be changed.
That sounds like ghoul needs to be changed actually
How is this perk broken on Ghoul? This perk is borderline useless for Ghoul. He can use it to occasionally jump over a god pallet of which I can think of like 2 in the entire game where he can use this.
Ghoul's specialty is countering people trying to hold W. This is an anti-hold W perk. The counter to Ghoul is to play pallets and tiles and avoid playing for distance.
This is a perk for someone like Artist, Chucky, Xenomorph who actually does struggle with survivors pre-dropping and trying to play for distance. These killers are the total opposite of Ghoul, where they are very strong in a tile but don't have a meaningful way of closing the distance on people.
Also Spookyloopz released a video testing all the new killer perk changes today and trying to see which ones are strong, and he couldn't get Knock Out to get value at all. It's a pretty great video to display how limited this perk is in a realistic context despite how good it looks on paper.
I tried this perk as Artist and it's INSANE.
Every filler pallet in the map suddenly becomes a guaranteed hit, no matter what. I even got double taps with it, because knockout doesn't deactivate when a survivor gets damaged.
They drop, I get a direct (damaging) hit with a crow and when they try to use the speed boost from that to get away… knock out -20%.
It's just insane. I don't know how knockout is with other killers (I assume Dredge is also a candidate), but with Artist it's obnoxious.
Man I can hear the point going over your head right now.
What point? Your point was that it's broken on Ghoul and therefore it must be nerfed. It's pointless on Ghoul.
anyone you would normally hold W to get away from a filler pallet against is a problem, especially pallet shredders, because it then puts people into a lose lose scenario: loop an extremely unsafe pallet and likely get hit (in some cases like for myers if you get hit you're outright downed) or leave and then also likely get hit.
Please try reading my comment before replying. This is just embarrassing. The point was that if it's too strong on any killer that means that the perk is too strong and needs to be nerfed. It's why I said killers like ghoul, key word being like.
I'm doubting this was your intention, to be totally honest. Because you could have listed a character this perk is actually good on like Artist.
So either you actually thought it's good on Ghoul or you don't even know a killer it is good on.
Lmao, bro can't read and actually trying to play it off.
What you said was the equivalent of saying "Secret Project is a problem because if it's broken on even one killer like Ghost Face then it needs a rework or a massive nerf."
Come on.