Why is anti-camp still so inconsistent?
When Henry came out I thought we were making progress. Both of his attack powers—Undergate and Vine Attack—are heavily delayed not only near a hooked survivor but for a limited period after the unhook. The great thing about this design is that it isn't a dead stop. The power can still be used if the killer gets the distance or timing right, or gets lucky, but it's thoughtful enough that he can't just hold his power until unhook and blast through Endurance, getting multiple uncounterable injuries like a Dracula or a Pyramidhead. Assessing anti-camp/tunnel per killer is a better idea than global changes and it's the trend I was hopng to see moving forward.
Then Jason came out.
Not only is he a camping, two-tapping tunneling nightmare, they even buffed his ability to camp after his release. Even before that, I had more hard tunneling in the period where everyone was playing Jason than I've probably ever had, so much so that I dropped survivor entirely for a couple weeks until it died down.
And now we have Judgment. A lot of people have said this killer has anti-tunnel built-in with the shrine recovery but I've played both customs and pubs in the ptb and camping is very much possible. For those who don't know, Judgment's beam dead stops when it gets to a hook. An inviisble bubble protects both the unhooker and hooked. Unfortunately, like many killers, this protection ends the moment the person is unhooked. Then there's the shrines. Seems good in theory, but only the shrines near the killer are able to be used, and they're very visible. A killer can camp them easily, and they have no anti-camp or protections. I also had several instances where the recovery from a shrine rematerialized the survivor right on top of the killer, completely negating the point of the long-distance recall.
I get that going back and adding decent anti-camp to previous killers would be a lengthy process, but why release one killer with decent anti-camp if you're not going to bother doing so on any subsequent releases? Why is blasting someone off hook okay for almost everyone but Henry?
Comments
Henry isnt right too, his anticamp shouldnt work at endgame where he is just m1 4,4 speed killer if survivors get to close to the hook.
On jason they turn the omnipresent exiting close hook which wasnt needed because basement exist, I would get if they would do it in endgame.
If you dodnt notice every character is some sort of test so best option is ask the devs.
Bubba had delay on unhooked survivor but then it stoped working so you can down them still fast (there was delay from unhook so you didnt get hit immidietly after unhook but then it bugged out and manx people even forget something like this existed).
Currently anticamp is strongest it ever been its stronger the longer killer is in its range, all survivors see the bar so they dont block it by mistake of not knowing the distance now.
I'm not talking about end game or the anti-camp meter, I'm talking about using your power near a hook during the normal course of a match.
A bunch of suggested changes that would be nice to see (not all of them I'm certain on):
Hag traps should not be able to be placed within 8m of a hooked survivor (yes I know this is a nerf to a bad killer but she needs buffs in general and that's a separate issue).
Doctor shock blasts should not cancel unhooks.
Bubba's chainsaw sweep, Legion's Feral Frenzy, and Oni's power should end when hitting a survivor with unhook protection (not including the extended time with Borrowed Time).
Bubba and Billy's chainsaw should have the overheat mechanic Billy used to have if they are revved too much in a 16m radius from the hooked survivor.
Deathslinger's harpoon should not be able to hit survivors with unhook protections (this is to avoid basement camping, where the Deathslinger can shoot the person off the hook so that the harpoon breaks their endurance stuck in the basement while they are still at the top of the stairs). Similarly, Houndmaster's dog should not be able to grab survivors with unhook protections, or should at least pause the timer to make it harder to wait out the timer.
Pyramid Head's and Dracula's m2 should be delayed within 10m or so of a hooked survivor and for 3 seconds after they are unhooked, similar to Henry. Unknown's UVX projectiles should similarly be delayed midair when reaching 4m from a hooked survivor and for 3 seconds after they are unhooked.
Wesker's bound and Jason's spike should not be able to both injure the unhooker and break the unhook protection endurance, one or the other.
Springtrap should not be able to get a guaranteed trade even from a range with a one-two combo on rescuing survivors using his fireaxe + grab combo, although I'm not entirely sure what to do about that one.
The Trickster's blades should do half progress on survivors within 6m of a hooked survivor and for 3 seconds afterwards.
Map mobility abilities across the board should be slowed when appearing within 12m of a hooked survivor and for 3s after they are unhooked. Vertical punishment should at the very least apply when the hooked survivor is in basement.
I'm just spitballing but these are the things I thought up in a few minutes, BHVR should be able to think of better solutions considering it's their literal job.
Unironically all excellent suggestions but will never happen. Especially the chainsaw ones.
I think an easier fix is to just make the unhooked survivor ignore M2's or have BT not trigger endurance and be similar to a 'Mettle of Man' hit, this would allow for anti-tunnel perks to not be invalidated by proxy camping.
I think the protective wall you get with Judgment is actually great to apply to pretty much all ranged killers universally if the attack moves in a line from killer to target, it just needs to extend a little past unhook as well. I think Henry is the only killer with a post-unhook protection and I'm just not sure why. It's such a weird choice to do it on only one killer.
A big one that it would help with is Trickster. Not only can he pop Main Event as soon as you unhook, he can also just stand away from the hook and do it during the unhook animation, which basically damns both players if the hook is in a strategic spot.
Yeah, honestly might be a more simple, elegant solution. @cogsturning's solution for killer powers that travel in a line is also a good idea. I think if it had to be the most simple solution I think your solution works best, and although it misses some powers or you would need to figure out how certain powers interacted with it, I think for such a simple solution it solves a lot. If it were to be a bit more complex of a solution, I think you could categorize killer powers that are similar and have them use similar anti-camp functions, kind of like what cogsturning's solution or my chainsaw solutions do.
Point is though, even by exchanging, what, a total of 7 comments in this thread, the community has come up with solutions. BHVR definitely should be able to come up with some as well, or use the ideas the community has, but change is just too slow.
I don't think it's that they can't think of solutions, it's that they're scared of clapback from this obnoxious community. The puzzling part to me is that they did it with Henry, which allowed for a precedent, and then they just stopped and went back to half-baked efforts like what Judgment's will be. Its not as though there were tons of complaints about Henry's anticamp, and I don't think it stops people from playing him, I just don't get why they didn't move forward with the concept on subsequent killers.
Because the anti-camp system as a whole is the issue. It's not thought through. In my opinion anti-camp needs to be buffed heavily and restrictions on powers need to be removed fully.
These are good shouts all. I particularly like one for bill, bubba and to a lesser degree oni. One hit focussed killers are an absolute nightmare for camping hooks. Just look at the old basement facecamp bubbas. Even with the facecamp protection, bubba in particular is still amazingly effective at proxy camping hooks and turning unhook attempts into both unhooker and unhookee getting shredded in seconds.
Which henry has nerfed even when gates are opened, bubbas had limit on unhooked survviors but it get lost in bugs even you missed it and there are killers that have that like artist or some trap killers.
Why the Dredge is just blocked from teleporting entirely and Jason is just slowed, I have no idea. The slowdown doesn't seem to bother most Jason players, they do it anyway. There definitely should be a short linger on those kind of teleports too, after the unhook. Anything to discourage teleports back to the hook.
The Judgment needs to be changed so it's the furthest 2 shrines, and not the nearest. Before long those who main the Judgment will know the shrine locations anyway.
If there is a way to cheese for an easy win, it will be cheesed. So it needs to be prevented or heavily punished.
I think on Henry it was the way you could use the power to instantly Mori the person coming off their second hook that made them look at it, right?
Anti-camp is more like anti-facecamp and anti-close-proximity camp. In the case of Jason his power would genuinely get screwed over on maps like Midwich where teleporting on floors above or below a hook in the classroom/hallway would trigger the anti-camp measure for no reason.
What most of them needed is a post-hook linger, yeah. Dredge's anti-camp is also useless. You can teleport to the unblocked locker closest to the hook and sit in there holding your teleport and as soon as the unhook happens you can poof into the now unblocked locker.
From what I could tell the shrines appear near gens, like Springtraps's doors, so not only easy to locate but also very visible. I'm assuming they didn't want it to be soooo safe by having it be that far away but they could make it the shrines furthest from survivors or something else cause what they did so far ain't it.
If I recall the issue was that it was ignoring Endurance. I have a video of this happening that I uploaded two days after his release but I can't tell if he's just outside the anti-camp range for his power, since you can still hit people immediately after they're unhooked even now if you emerge at just the right spot:
https://youtu.be/Puh2YS5ShZA?is=TeW_RaLaajcXpVgJI feel like the anti-camp was always there? I could be misremembering but I don't remember a sudden fix and it's an awfully good solution to come up with on the fly, nor do I remember ever playing with him with no anti-camp present and I got him a week or so after release. And neither 9.4.1 or 9.4.2 make any mention of this and i remember the problem being fixed quickly, so I think it was just a background fix to the Endurance aspect.
What makes you say Jason had his camping ability buffed after release? The only thing I can think of is that the vertical part of his built-in anticamp was removed to stop him being affected when he isn't camping, but I don't like to assume that's what you meant.
Anyways, I can't speak for Judgement since I can't access PTBs for the time being, but otherwise I agree more could be done with built-in anticamp. Singularity, First, and Jason all have solid anticamp but a few more killers could definitely do with it, even ones released in that timeframe.
That's what I referring to, yes. You can hook someone in basement or on a map that has a drop down above, like midwich courtyard, and be right on top of the hook again immediately. He already has the most free teleport in the game. They even gave him excess spots to teleport to, as if windows and existing pallets weren't enough already. He really would be okay if there's an extra couple spots he can't use above the hook.
The few times I tried this, it still gave me the slowed down version of the vault despite teleporting to an upper floor, so at the very least it seems incredibly inconsistent and possibly unintended.