Pixel Bush's advice for the Skull Merchant rework
I'm signal-boosting this in the hope that someone on the dev team sees it. These are all really good ideas from someone who actually understands Merchant as a killer, designed to raise her skill floor while still preserving what makes her fun for skilled players.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGtAyIikGFQ
Comments
Also "signal-boosting" it, devs should pay more attention to players who put a ton of hours into killer when we talk about changes/rework to this killer. Do this 3 times a day and you don't even need to waste 2 years on pre-flopped rework like Twins anymore.
@VomitMommy
I remember the discussion regarding @PixelBush's original rework last time. I'm not sure Pixel is too active on the forums, but I'll tag anyway, as I do remember they were here and were quite open to discussion regarding the SM debate.
I recall when we talked about it before, the main concern regarding the neuroshock was compared the the hindered it could be even more deadly. From my newb perspective at the time I felt the neuroshock was less potent than the hindered, though as we discussed and I've since learned more about positioning, the neuroshock is debatable stronger… but I think in the context of everything Pixel says here… I think the idea is actually bloody good.
In case you don't wanna watch the summary is: -
Drones: -
Stealth: -
Claw Traps: -
There are also add-ons changes, that can be discussed later.
I think with these changes to greatly increase her skill floor, and the restrictions on Neuroshock (which mitigate the fact that unlike Doctor she doesn't slow down when shocking) all makes her far more engaging.
Quite a different direction to the direction we've discussed, but I think it's very interesting, and was curious of your thoughts :D
I agree with mostly changes except haste being removed
I actually like these changes a lot.
I feel she’d legitimately be fun to go against if they went this route.
@Pulsar Also figure you'd be interested friend as the most vocal SM detractor. 😁
Given the stacks are permanent, it strikes me that though SM might be mostly just an M1 killer, she comes across as a slow burn trap killer, where the effect isn't immediate, but as players slowly rack up stack through the game, she can suddenly get a big power spike.
With this rework there is significantly more effort for Skully to get her tags and make good on them, less cognative load on survivors to handle her at loops (especially with haste and hindered no longer there, you only have to account for your own position and the drones scan lines), but across the board there is also a lot more counter play and interactivity for SM here.
I am overall not a fan of most of those changes. I think it would make her even more annoying to play against and only buff hold W counterplay which is boring to me.
I want that yellow addon to work this way....
That will let more reliably injure survivors with her drones, which is really not going to make her more popular for survivors....
For this you would need to remove broken, so survivors are not as punished for getting claw trap. It would become even more noob stomping power otherwise.
It would make it less reliable. Simply because you don't have direct feedback of drone is disabled or not. Yes, you can notice drone getting disarmed and it gets slightly higher, but that's just impossible to track on most maps when you need undetectable fast.
Undetectable on drone placement is way more reliable in my opinion.
That's the moment where I think it becomes worse for both sides. Thing is haste makes her gameplay feel way better, but it's not as oppressive and you can definitely play against both haste and hindered.
Removal will make survivors just holding W better against her and prerun is already very annoying for her.
Shock on demand without slowdown would become really oppressive. With hindered you can still play the pallet as against Clown quite easily. Shock is going to lead to hits where there is simply nothing survivor can do about it.
This was my initial thought, though the changes to improve her lazer tagging, combined with the idea of her being a set up killer with reliably closing off common survivor paths does limit the ability to hold W, as there is risk of another drone lying in wait for you.
Making it so the drones don't rotate does allow you to pre-emptively close off paths you expect survivors to take, and rewards good early prediction, a bit like Hag. So I'm not convinced the Hold W would be that bad.
I'm a little more open to this, cause the initial hit of the drone tag is missable… it doesn't become a stealth drone that just lops off the loop… her stealth drone lazer tag becomes jukable…but if you do hit it, there is potential for more reward, and it strikes me as avoid the initial hit makes for a more reward. Without her haste bonus and the incoming hindered, this doesn't appear as frustrating to me, especially as when scouting the drones are slower as easier to track for survivors, which is where a Skull Merchant actually using her rotation change starts to come into play.
There is the problem ofc that she does close off a loop path though… though Pixel's argument this is effectively 1/3 of an Artist crow is valid.
This one is a concern to me however, because as you say, once you have the shocks… there is little you can do… but in the same breathe… the fact you got scanned while claw trapped was the mistake, and where the counterplay lies… the getting shocked itself is merely a formality for SM getting rewarded for lazer tagging you, or controlling you at the loop. Given all of that is harder, it seems like it might work?
This is true, I would add one of your suggestions to mark the drone so its clear it is disabled.
Not that I'm blindly supporting the idea mind you, but I see potential in this quasi trap/laser sniper focused Skull Merchant
Watched the video and read the summary.
Like with most things regarding this Killer, this has the potential to either be fine or be really bad.
Very helpful, I know, but I can't really say more without seeing it play.
The devs don't listen to content creators. They have a collection of consultants who are also content creators they also ignore. The proposed Twins rework is a fine example, the devs thought that was a good idea until everybody else knew it wasn't. Then the next challenge is how do you fix a bad reputation? Skull Merchant was hated since Day 1.
But in those changes you would make laser tagging way easier (laser doesn't move). I can just put laser into the loop on run to same side survivor is on. Survivor is simply going to be hit by it no matter what. I would argue that this decrease skill ceiling she has now.
Static laser makes laser tagging super easy to do and it's harder to avoid with crouching, because it's going to take longer when it won't go past you...
So is it really a mistake when you made it easier and faster to get compare to current version?
Survivors would also be more likely to run into it with removal of circle.
the changes transpose her from clown to doctor killer with traps. doctor and clown have different type of skills required but doctor traps are easier to use then clown one.
You get this problem where when any pallet is dropped, you just run around loop and survivor is forced to go through the scan which disables their ability to vault the pallet. In other words, there is no decision making between survivor vaulting pallet and running forward. It is just run forward for killer and survivor gets hit after X time.
With haste and hindered, the survivor can camp pallets and try to bait skull merchant into swing.
On undropped pallet the problem is even worse because…. you put a drone on the pallet and the pallet is effectively blocked as if it was affected by hex:blood favor.
This doesn't raise skill-floor. it makes skill-floor as low as possible. there is like 0 ways to use drones poorly at loops with this design.
twin is slugging killer. BVHR had no intention to buff slugging so their rework was going fail. In fact they want remove slugging entirely from killer which doesn't make any sense. They didn't even bother to remove 30 second cooldown on Victor hostage exploit on killer itself. This rework isn't any better. it would be just as bad.
Aren't you trying to argue with wrong person?
I said I am not a fan of shock mechanic...
I think those changes decrease her skill ceiling quite a lot overall, which may sound crazy for most players and she would probably be very miserable for survivors.
I think that aspect improved a lot compare to first version, so it's bad idea to make it worse again…
i agree. it is funny because it takes like 2 seconds to look at idea and see its flaws.
It was same with twin rework. it only 2 seconds to see its flaws. if you have enough experience in the game, you can almost immediately tell full scale implicates of changes in dbd even without implementing them.
Although I will agree that some killer that very complicated are harder to spot than others.
I see what you're both saying, but the shock isn't triggered by the scan immediately, it's triggered by the Skull Merchant using her radar, and can only be triggered within a set time frame.
In the scenraios you describe, you've got a survivor claw trapped and now you block off a window or pallet with your stationary drone to ensure they hit it. You cannot neuroshock the survivor until they are scanned and when they are scanned you only have a set time frame you can shock them… and you cannot hold up your radar and place a drone at the same time. If their input is buffered as you lazer tag, they pull the pallet or vault anyway before you can shock. Doctor already has trouble with this if he mistimes, and he is in direct control of when he can shock. Pallets are a little easier for Skull Merchant, but vs. Windows you've absolutely got to account for input buffers.
If you counter rotate to get the survivor scanned and the survivor guesses it while blocking off a route (such as shack), the survivor can guess it and eat the scan deliberately and continue around the loop opposite to your rotation, now with a scouting drone instead of a stationary silent one. The shock is only available for a set duration so if the can now dodge the scout drone for the duration of the shock timer, they can still freely use the resource... again input buffers are gonna matter.
This whole time you as Skully will still be 4.6, and the survivor has still been 4... no speed up or hindered. Skully also can't attack while holding her radar up, so she has to control her drone rotation in order to get the shock, which if she flubs, the survivor gets the input and makes mad distance.
I dunno, I just don't see the no option here, a perfectly played SM can likely catch a survivor everytime here, just like Docyor... but there are plenty of places to screw it up... juat like Doctor. That's excluding the idea that there are still mind games available to the survivor where they bait a shock running to window and running to pallet instead...
First of all, the time requirement to get claw trap will make skull merchant chases too long because she has m1 killer with no power with that design.
When she does get her power, there isn't anything that survivor can do to prologue chase in any meaningful way.
You should likely play doctor for said ability. there is no need to clone doctor where your worse in trap build-up sense and stronger in the chase.
Skull merchant is fine where she is at. She's stealth clown killer that looks ambush survivors and track survivor like predator. it fits her lore. I believe one of the dev wanted her to play like this. was it Dave? I don't remember. This was like her intended design from the start. the 3 gen for 60 minutes was not an intended design. it just happened to work that way due to BVHR's poor balance of perks & game mechanics. The killer works fine as is and balance is also alright. it is just that them creating that 60 minute merchant gameplay creating a very big D/C stigma problem. hopefully the problem passes over time.
Weren't we arguing just now that this design makes Skull Merchant too strong and uncounterabke at tiles? I was literally arguing why she wouldn't be too strong with this setup...
I mean I am a believer that Skull Merchant is in a good place now, and I've said a few times in other threads I dunno why she's still so hated; to my mind she is basically the good trap killer and is reasonably fair.
One thing I will agree with is the cognitive load playing vs. Skull Merchant is far greater than the Cognative load playing as Skull Merchant. That is a fair criticism.
I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate right now and exploring this idea, and ensuring I give it a fair shake. 😅
I know it isn't really helpful but I honestly believe SM at this point will always be hated either by survivors or by killers. Even with those changes her power still doesn't seem fun to me. Like I personally like SM character design mostly because lore wise she isn't some female turn into a victim that makes her into a killer. Plus she has some of the best cosmetics imo but gameplay wise I grown to hate her. She just never going to be fun for most ppl and honestly her reputation is so damage right now that even a full rework imo will make ppl like her. I think survivors will continue to DC again her just because of her reputation.
i just assume that you could shock with no claw trap and that claw trap only enables tracking. Didn't watch the video. Only read post. the doctor shock traps is not a good idea. explanation can be found on above post.
Haste + hindered is simply reliable yet not that oppressive.
Shocking is either going to be super oppressive or just useless (if you put limitations on it). I don't think there can be anything in between.
Thats fair enough.
That's probably fair... I can believe the numbers to get something balanced would have to be very precise.
It feels incredibly finicky and I'm absolutely against making skull merchant have Doctors antiloop, but better.
I'm on the train into work and been pondering this more. I cant find your original post which has the rework that interested me the most. I found my own post that referenced the same idea though. For reference:
survivor while they are still injured. Also allows survivors to decide to deliberately eat a scan to remove their stacks while SM is occupied
to try and mend/heal.
Is there any part of Pixel's rework you'd consider pirating and adding to this?
Drones in stealth mode do not rotate
The stealth drone being stationary is interesting for basekit, makes her a more set up and trap killer, but I agree with you this makes sense to be the new way the yellow add-on works,a nd it avoid the lock off a loop at base issue.
Skull Merchant now gains stealth when recalling a non-disabled drone
I think there is potential in this idea with regards to your rework. It may be that her stealth needs a numbers boost (maybe 10 or 12s?), but this does raise a resources management level of play that makes her more interesting. It increases her skill ceiling, make disabling a drone more profitable for survivors, but allows you to set up long chains of undetectable at a cost... all with a then implied "re-setup" time.
This also gives her reason to recall the drones she has available on the map beyond wanting one for a loop.
It would also remove a fair bit of the "Just push the button" stigma around her, as she doesn't get to hide her red light whole plopping a drone at a tile, which would help her image.
When scanned with a claw trap, <guff>shocks a survivor, expending one claw trap charge.
If we abandon the shock idea, the part of this that is interesting to me is the claw trap charge... The claw trap lasts for 45s, which means each power circle on the HUD lasts 15s...
What if each time you are hit by a beam, the claw traps zaps you and you get hindered as per your rework above... in doing so you expend the remainder of your current Clawtrap charge? This basically gives Skull Merchant 3 zaps to capitalise on a clawtrap, or 2 or less if the survivor times their Zap well.
I'd probably add some idea that the clawtrap will only "Zap" a survivor in chase, but this opens up additional counterplay at tiles, where it might actually be beneficial to stay at certain stronger tiles to get rid of the clawtrap via zaps, giving skilled players more methods of winning the exchange vs. SM.
I'd also consider a mechanic where if a claw trapped survivor heals in full, getting scanned again reinsurer them with the same Zap, but also uses a charge.
Any of these idea you'd consider pulling in/tweaking?
This is my last comment about it I think:
One thing that I would add is cooldown (like 4-5 seconds) on changing rotation direction of drone. So you can't spam it on survivor.
About this post:
Thing is it makes getting tagged in most loops near impossible to dodge unless you always hold W. Right now you can play around rotating drone by standing still / crouching, running in rotating direction. It can be difficult, but definetly possible.
If laser is static, I can put it in middle of loop, or entrance. Then just run in a way to push survivor into it. Because laser is stationary, it's going to take longer to dodge it by crouching, which on most loops means either you run away asap or I get a hit.
I think it should be fine on addon, but not really basekit.
With my changes, where you would be able to see disabled drones it might be fine with increased duration.
Issue is you can't really increase it, because it will create infinite stealth again. It's going to be annoying to do, because you need to place the drone, recall it and repeat. Then when I get near survivor I just start dropping them as usual, so later I can start recalling them.
You would basically have to put cooldown on recalling and that just felt terrible on PTB. At least for me….
Not sure if I understand this correctly.
Zap basically means you still get only hindered, but it takes part of battery away?
Thing is it would be kinda unintuitive for me to work only in chase… But making it work outside of chase is going to let survivors remove their claw trap super fast, which I don't think is needed if we remove broken.
With this thing I would definetly keep higher Hinder, I don't think it is that strong to get double nerfed.