Debatable Hits Give Deep Wound Rather Than Downs
This will probably hurt the killers and need a bit of balancing, but what if hits that look like they miss or almost miss actually give deep wounds rather than false downs?
It's like the weapon cuts your skin a bit rather than slicing you in half when barely nipping at your shirt.
Comments
Oh. Something that will lessen favoring to high-ping player? Say that both clients can have a say in if it was hit or not and if they disagree it would become deep wound? A reason to stop using VPN as a killer? That would be something
As a console player who's whole game experience is trying to effectively deal with being spin teched constantly... this sounds truly evil xD
I think those hits would generally not get affected. You should be very much in reach when getting spinned - so this should not be the situation (provided you don't have latency 1000+ms). With my understanding it's more about those hits where you vaulted window and moved 3 steps away but still got hit regardless
I highly doubt this is feasible.
if this is actually possible to do, I think it would be pretty cool.
And with reason: It is not.
Oh fair enough, that makes more sense.
I assumed latency would affect spin techs as well, particularly with some of the bare millimeters I've on occasion been able to turn enough to clip people trying it on me... I was thinking if latency made that even harder, where I'd be robbed of my down for Deep Wound instead, that'd be pretty tilting...
But assuming that's not a thing, I suppose the question is, is there a value difference between getting a bullcrap miss as killer vs. getting a bullcrap hit as a survivor?
As a rudimentary comparison, every extra 10 secs a bull crap miss costs a killer is 10 more seconds of Survivors on potentially 3 gens... whereas every bull crap hit on a survivor is potentially 10 seconds lost for 1 survivor coming off for the unhook. I guess the impact this could have changes through the course of the game... early on desync misses are really bad for killer, later on desync hits are really bad for survivor... It's not that simple ofc, but you get what I'm asking.
What hits? Hits that look debateable on the Killer or the Survivor's end?
I mean isn't this why we have a Server? This is from 2019?
The problem is we have hit validation at pallets. That means if the Killer hit on their screen, but the Survivor stunned them, the server says whoever got their action first (less laggy) gets the favorable result. Windows have no such validation. Corners have no such validation. That is where lag hits are most common, and that is where lag hits are still a problem. When you go against a redbar VPN Killer, they swing absurdly early. Then when you get hit 5m from the window, you understand why. That's where you were on their screen, and the server would take that lag hit because there is no validation to verify "the Survivor was nowhere near the window, that should miss".
Yeah but how would you do it any other way?
Should we want the Killer to send the signal for hitting the survivor to the server and then the Server to send the signal to the survivor to check if it hits, then send the signal back to the Server and then back to the Killer? No way, that's a bottle neck.
There is no way you can check with the Survivor without making things awfully slow, so its either update your position to the Server or you are Dead by Daylight.
How do you ascertain what a questionable hit looks like?
If these wall/windows had soft-validation similar to like OP suggests, then that would apply a Deep-Wound when injured, and presumably old Stab-Wounds study where a Deep-Wounded hit would then be a down (as it would drain the remaining Deep Wound bar). Just like how pallets test Survivor sent a stun signal to server, and Killer send a hit signal to server to determine stun/hit, the same would be done with windows/corners. If the Survivor sends a location ping out of the hit-zone, and the Killer sends a hit within the hit-zone, the server would read a laggy Killer as a deep wound, and a laggy Survivor as a normal hit. This lets Killers who live in bad areas/far from their region's server still play the game, but they have to still get legit shots/hits.
MS Paint simple mockup done below.
So that's is a Yes, you prefer to bottleneck the server verifying every single hit or near windows. I dont know why you say soft validation, its either validation or not or something else. Either way you are sending 6 more packets around to laggy players which would just increase the problem since now they have to verify hits for deep wounds aswell.
You wanna start by explaining how sending more packets back and forth between laggy players (increasing the lag) is gonna improve anything even if it applies deep wound?
Bottleneck the server? What else is the point of the server if not to determine who deserves to win in a scenario of direct competiton?!?! To check how progressed the gen is? You can have a laggy gen moment as Surv if we are checking if the Killer deserved to hit your teammate.
I call it soft-validation, because a laggy Killer can still get a down under the proposed system. It takes 3 lag hits instead of the normal 2 non-laggy hits. Healthy -> Injured -> Dying to now become Healthy -> Injured -> Deep Wound -> Dying. If optimized, this process only runs while the Survivor is Injured and not Deep Wounded. It doesn't need to check while Healthy, and doesn't need to check while Deep Wounded. It doesn't prevent the laggy Killer from dealing damage altogether, it just delays the Survivor's death in the case of excessive lag.
What else is the point of the server if not to determine who deserves to win in a scenario of direct competition?!?!
The point of the Server is to run a fair game that is enjoyable to play, the Point of the Server isn't to play Lawyer, even tho it could if everybody had direct connection. But we don't its all on ms, its gonna take a while. That is why sending unnecessary packets is counter productive.
If optimized, this process only runs while the Survivor is Injured and not Deep Wounded. It doesn't need to check while Healthy, and doesn't need to check while Deep Wounded. It doesn't prevent the laggy Killer from dealing damage altogether, it just delays the Survivor's death in the case of excessive lag.
The way you present it its already unnecessary, if the laggy killer cant deal damage anyway then how do you get to the injured state? Why not just skip the steps of providing extra validation for a down, if the first hit is accepted anyway. The Survivor in question could equally be mad about the first hit aswell, anyone who is mad about hits like that want things to fair, but we can only keep things as fair as the technology can allow us.
Not only would making certain hits have a big thick bottleneck on them by annoying to play with because hits would be inconsistent, but dodging them would also depends the Survivors injured state.
I mean sure its interesting and hopeful to think about, but the moment you get down to it, less is better for the game overall.
We had Killer as the host previously. That was (in laggy matches) not a fair game that was enjoyable to play. The server saying "hey that wasn't a valid hit, but you get Deep Wound on them anyways" most certainly would make it more fair and enjoyable to play.
I'm not sure we are firing on the same cylinders. Laggy Killers currently can always deal damage on Live, (especially when they shouldn't) and the only time they are denied a hit is if it was pallet validation. In my little picture, the Killer currently always deals damage at that corner, and would only check for validation if it were a downing hit (exposed/instadown when healthy, any damage when injured). This makes it so corner/window hits apply that same pallet validation, but to a lesser extent. This proposal would limit BS hits, but not entirely prevent them.
Now I don't fully understand the mechanical side of online interactions. You keep saying it would add extra packets, but my understanding is the game is always sending those same packets of where the Killer and Survivor are to the server. It wouldn't be sending extra packets that it isn't already sending. It would use the already available information. The only case would be when laggy Killer's game interpreted a hit as a down, but the server said back "nuh uh, that was lag, you only get Deep Wound".
Now I don't fully understand the mechanical side of online interactions. You keep saying it would add extra packets, but my understanding is the game is always sending those same packets of where the Killer and Survivor are to the server. It wouldn't be sending extra packets that it isn't already sending.
Yes the game ALREADY SENDS LOCATION DATA that is true,
but for your system to work it needs to send a hit attack to the Survivor, who then needs to send it back to server and then the Server sends that info back to the Killer.
It would use the already available information.
No its not using already sent info, cause we are NOT PREDICTING when the nearby Killer is hitting for the survivor and if we did it would be wrong. The attack packet is something else than location packet. Like I told you three times now, it would create a huge chain for that specific attack. Its a huge waste of packet data, which costs money btw. but it will make that attack take AGES and the validation will only arrive seconds later for the Killer.
Now I don't fully understand the mechanical side of online interactions.
Yes you really need to get on that, it would help you understand why adding rules to a game that needs a packet to visit 4 places instead of 1 is a bad idea. 4 times as bad.
Hit/miss back and forth reply section 1 - I'm sorry but the way you describe it would mean it would take no extra steps or processes still. In the picture the Server knew the Survivor was at location 'S' when the laggy Killer sent the hit at location 'H'.
It would take AGES to validate reply section 2 - Even when there were super laggy hits for normal Killer feedback it took no longer than .5s, it was just the disconnected info that was confusing. The Killer is still going to have to round the corner or vault the window to pick up the Survivor, so the time spent reaching the Survivor on the ground would update to show Deep Wound and scratch marks and a standing Survivor on the Killers screen long before it would matter outside of super specific snowballing situations.
'Get on that' reply section 3 - Assuming very generously that this isn't a needlessly rude dismissal, where is the information available? Nothing in the game describes the latency mechanics. I haven't seen anything on the wiki describing their internet based architecture. I also have seen no BHVR posting describing in detail the (likely) software engineering Masters degree level of information required. The most information I've had was a talk I attended in person describing how the designers of MAG (for the PS3) allowed for nearly 300 (256 to be fair, but the speaker said though it was frequently 300 if the PS3 would have allowed it) people to interact on a single server without significantly noticeable lag, at least less noticeable compared to the 5 player servers DBD has access to.
Edit: Grammar spend -> spent
Hey, you don't have to be so grumpy!
Hit/miss back and forth reply section 1 - I'm sorry but the way you describe it would mean it would take no extra steps or processes still. In the picture the Server knew the Survivor was at location 'S' when the laggy Killer sent the hit at location 'H'.
You need to explain that way better. You already told me you dont fully understand the mechanical side of online interactions, yet you are trying to say it still wont take more steps than the current system, like do you know or do you not know?
Even when there were super laggy hits for normal Killer feedback it took no longer than .5s, it was just the disconnected info that was confusing. The Killer is still going to have to round the corner or vault the window to pick up the Survivor, so the time spent reaching the Survivor on the ground would update to show Deep Wound and scratch marks and a standing Survivor on the Killers screen long before it would matter outside of super specific snowballing situations.
Its not acceptable to give the Killer a hit verification from the server and then remove it when verification from the survivor arrives. if I see the Survivor go down and then go back up glowing white, ill be on the forum complaining about that right away so that wont work at all.
where is the information available?
You need to get down to your local library and start with learning networks and how Server communication works. This is computer deepdive, I have no formal education in that myself but I have done Server communication as school projects. then ofc game design to understand what info is required to be sent.
It can't be done for the simple reason that not even the server know your real current position, not the killer or the survivor, as whether we like it or not there is always a delay of the packets sent to and from the server. In other words, not even the server see the same game that the killer or the survivor is seeing in any moment.
The server compensate this applying different kinds of lag compensation techniques, so the simulation is as close and fair as it can be (even tho, this techniques and their implementation depends on BHVR), but those techniques compensate to a point.
In other words, doing that would not be feasible as it would not resolve anything, as you would still get "soft hits" even if in your screen you shouldn't got hit at all, and the killer would miss hits that should be at least soft hits.
So again: It would solve nothing. Just BHVR spending time and money on developing something like this, and more server maintenance costs for them as now the server has to process even more data.
I feel getting a Deep Wound would at least feel better than getting downed for a false hit. Yeah, it'd be hard for the server to actually confirm it, but if it could work, it'd be a bit fairer for the survivors facing laggy killers.
But it couldn't, that's the thing. And it couldn't, as it would still have the same problems than with normal hits.
Imagine I give you a photo done 50 seconds ago of me just behind a survivor. In those 50 seconds I didn't move, but the survivor did. The thing is, you don't know that, the only info you have is that photo. Did I hit the survivor, or have him gained enough distance to avoid the attack?
Now imagine the contrary, you have a photo of me starting a lung attack and the survivor is far from me so I won't be able to hit him, but since that photo was taken the survivor walked to me so I would be able to hit him. Again, did I hit him with the info you had?
Now, change 50 seconds to 50 milliseconds and that's what is happening in the server. So, even with both players having a "low latency" connection, there would be discrepancies on what any player see, and what the server see (again, this is mitigated by using lag compensation techniques like prediction or "favoring" one of the sides, but this work only to a point).
In other words, there would still be "false hits" even if those hits were "soft", without counting how would you make the server differentiate between a "real hit" and a "false" one, as again, there is always 6 "photos" of the game at all times: What the clients (players) sees in their screen, and the simulation the server is doing.
P1 - I drew a picture so I was trying to make it as simple and clear as possible. Survivor/Server/Killer all know different things. The Server knows in the Laggy Killer left picture that the Survivor has long rounded the corner, so the only 'extra' information is correcting the Killer's false information of the Survivor, by saying that they are deep wounded instead of downed. The Server knows in the Laggy Survivor right picture that the Survivor didn't round the corner before the Killer landed the hit, so there is no 'extra' information whatsoever being sent.
P2 - The Killer never received a hit verification to begin with. My understanding is the game 'predicts' the inputs, so an M1 downs the Survivor on your screen, then when they teleport 2-3m afterward it was their actual location before the hit landed. This is the current situation where the server updates the Killer's game client with the correct information from the 'predicted' information. This would be a similar update of correct from 'predicted' information with a down around a corner being converted to a Deep Wound. It shouldn't use anything that isn't already being done.
P3 - The way this sounds to me is that you are saying in order for anyone to have an opinion about this hobby, they need to spend even more time beyond learning about the basic game mechanics/reading on the wiki, playing the game, working for survival(+commute time), cooking food, exercising to stay healthy, taking care of family, cleaning the living space, keeping up with car/home maintenance, and only then spending whatever spare time remains on studying the network infrastructure of the game that may or may not use the specific method you end up researching. I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound feasible for the majority of people. I am just trying to suggest things from what already exists for the most part. That doesn't seem unreasonable to make suggestions based on existing mechanics/functionality.
I might have misjudged your take on this idea, compared to OPs first description but since its about debateable hits from whos perspective I have to assume you verify it with the Survivor. If that is correct please say so.
P1 - I drew a picture so I was trying to make it as simple and clear as possible. Survivor/Server/Killer all know different things. The Server knows in the Laggy Killer left picture that the Survivor has long rounded the corner, so the only 'extra' information is correcting the Killer's false information of the Survivor, by saying that they are deep wounded instead of downed. The Server knows in the Laggy Survivor right picture that the Survivor didn't round the corner before the Killer landed the hit, so there is no 'extra' information whatsoever being sent.
the scenario you describe here is validating with the Server, not the Survivor. You are describing the current system with extra deep wound system. That wont improve anything regarding what looks like hits and what don't which is what this thread is about. This will improve nothing since people will still get pissed off if they downed or get deep wounded.
Unironically we don't have "debateable distance", debateable from whos perspective or details on the type of deep wound.
which also is a lot of work for problem that happens how often?
P2 - The Killer never received a hit verification to begin with. My understanding is the game 'predicts' the inputs, so an M1 downs the Survivor on your screen, then when they teleport 2-3m afterward it was their actual location before the hit landed. This is the current situation where the server updates the Killer's game client with the correct information from the 'predicted' information. This would be a similar update of correct from 'predicted' information with a down around a corner being converted to a Deep Wound. It shouldn't use anything that isn't already being done.
Killer does receive hit verification, it is what starts the wipe animation. The Killer also sends the hit to the server for verification. Even if we ignore verifying with the Survivor we still have the same problems of hits that don't look like they should and then some of them with deep wound. That would be pointless.
The way this sounds to me is that you are saying in order for anyone to have an opinion about this hobby,
I never told you cant have an opinion, but here on the forum we give feedback on each other's ideas. You gotta be able to show and argue why your opinion is the way it is and engage with feedback. Im doing the same right now. You asked me about how to learn more about how networking, servers, etc works and I answered, I'm not asking you to learn it. You said yourself you didn't know how it works. If you are too busy to learn it, then don't. I'm not your mom.
I'm also not saying you cant suggest something, but I'm going to ask you how it would work. If there are bad answers or no answers ofc Im going to point that out. I get some people dont like to be challenged on the ideas they have, but as long as its a discussion is gonna happen.
But just to make sure you dont feel bad in anyway, I'm not trying to be snide to you. Sorry if I was too blunt, ill try harder.
My take has always been on the server's perspective. Currently laggy Killers are only 'validated' at pallets. Some Killers are also not given sufficient servers in their area. I don't want to punish a Killer because of where they live, just if they VPN for the current 'lagvantage' system that we have. That's why I only recommend the equivalent of 1 extra health state. When I'm talking about BS/laggy hits, I'm talking about the ones that we've all had, and also seen in (insert content creator here)'s weekly compilation.
How often - When I worked night-shift, it was literally every day off. At nights, you all too frequently get people from shall we say, an 'extended' search range. And by that I mean 8 timezones over from only a specific nation presumably VPNing over an entire ocean. So basically as long as you play after midnight in your own timezone you will probably get garbo laggy matches until about 5am minimum. There are also roughly half the matches at night, so you could argue an extreme case of 10% of all matches this would help. Which isn't a lot, but at the same time is very common for how frustrating it can be.
My take has always been on the server's perspective. Currently laggy Killers are only 'validated' at pallets. Some Killers are also not given sufficient servers in their area. I don't want to punish a Killer because of where they live, just if they VPN for the current 'lagvantage' system that we have. That's why I only recommend the equivalent of 1 extra health state. When I'm talking about BS/laggy hits, I'm talking about the ones that we've all had, and also seen in (insert content creator here)'s weekly compilation.
Thanks for the clarification, its appreciated.
So your idea is to validate hits on the server with leaving room for activating deep wound hits for this 'debateable range'
Im not sure taking their hits away is going to make Killers happy, but the idea is coherent and plausible that's for sure.
Personal, I don't like those spin tech that Survivor can do and get lucky in not being hit all the time. It also the same thing when survivors can avoid a direct hit, when the killer in front of them and they somehow crouch duck and avoid the hit, like say Blight on doorways.
If i am playing Killer, and I can see their character model and my weapon connecting with their body; I should get the hit. And for the ones that are too far away the window, and I shouldn't got the hit yet I did; those need fixing. Same with spin tech, running around 360 with your camera, that can be easier done on PC but not on my ps5 control. That should be a guaranteed hit, regardless
They tried making the server unbiased and killers weren't happy with the tables being turned on them, so we're probably stuck with a killer biased servers till dbd dies
Maybe because almost all games out there right now doesn't have "unbiased servers" as again, every game uses some kind of lag compensation.
Where's my lag comp as survivor then? To my knowledge it's literally only biased towards survivors for grabs from gens and totems etc., other than that nearly every other chase related aspect of the game has little to no lag comp for survivors
And on pallets drops. If you stunt the killer, the server give you that hit even after the killer hit and down you. That's why sometimes the killer sees clearly how you got hit but he is stunned anyway and you got out of there not injured. This is called "favoring the shooter", an industry standard for action games and FPS, that favor the "shooter" view unless there is some condition for why it shouldn't (example, the gen grabs: The killer sees how the grab animation start as he is still seeing you doing the gen, the server get the info that you in fact got up before the grab, it respect your view and the animation for the killer is stopped and become a hit instead... when it becomes a hit and not just make you stand there).
Besides of that, lag compensation works at all times. Have you seen those 60ms that the game says is your latency? That's how much time your info take to get to the server. If the killer has another 60ms of ping, then that means that the info got to the killer 120ms later than you do some action, and vice versa. The server compensate this with many techniques, including predicting what your actions are going to be and doing roll backs in some situations (like in the gen grabs), so it can do an accurate simulation that acts as middle point of what both players are doing and seeing to maintain it as fair as possible.
In other words, as long as the connections of the 5 clients (the 4 survivors and the killer player) is stable and not high, the server will compensate for most inconsistencies caused by latency. The keyword here being most, as I had already said in other post, there will always be problems caused by lag and until we can get info packets travel instantly, the only thing we can do is mitigate the effects. But, again, BHVR is the responsible of implementing those mitigations and how they exactly work and we can only speculate with the most used techniques in the industry as we don't know how they compensate for lag in DbD.
Here I already gave an example (even if not totally accurate and without taking in count lag compensation) of how things works in a basis:
So, yeah, you have your lag compensation as survivor, including your "biased validation" on some situations.