Demo and Pig Special Attacks
One thing that I noticed about these two is how both charge attacks are slower then a basic attack. Their recovery is 3 seconds while every basic attack is 2.7 seconds. That’s 10% slower than normal. It’s not huge, but having -2 stacks of STBFL on a special attack doesn’t seem intentional. My theory is that when all killers got a buff to attack cooldowns, special attacks that are like basic attacks accidentally got missed.
Given how weak pig and how balanced demo is, this small change could give a slight edge that wouldn’t be overpowered at all. It would just equalize the two options so you aren’t punished for using the abilities, especially when trying to conserve STBFL stacks. Maybe this is on purpose, as the two abilities can get hits that you normally can’t at loops. If it’s an oversight, I think a small tweak would make the two feel better to play without being op.
Thank you for reading.
Comments
Seems these are both considered variants of lunge attacks rather than special attacks, and I think you may right they might have been missed in patch 6.1.0.
It might be intentional, as they are both extended lunge attacks, but it seems odd they used to match the lunge cooldown, but don't any more...
Regarding buffing them, kinda hoping to see Pig get a little more chase power, in whatever form that takes. It's not been an uncommon idea to just buff all her ambush numbers; crouch speed, crouch movement, ambush charge speed, ambush movement speed/distance... this would likely be accepted in that buff as well...
Sadly was not here for Demo, so can't say I know really anything about him... though this change seems largely inconsequential to him too.
But yeas, I think several people agree the Pig needs a
nerfbuff.Their recovery is slower.
If you hit them, you don't need to worry about that. High risk high reward.
Now as to readying the attacks, that should be looked at, particularly on Pig. A -0.3 seconds on crouching or charging Ambush would be very welcome.
I assume it has to do with the fact that their attacks make them lunge foward (unless you already considered that), but either way it's a really fair point and might be a good way to buff them. I don't think Demogorgon suffers much from that because the lunge makes up for it (or maybe I'm just used to it), but it would probably be a pretty cool buff at least for Pig.
I wouldn’t be opposed to Pig getting that buff. I think Demo's shred is strong enough as it is though.
I wouldnt say Demo is that balanced, the hitbox of his Shred is pretty stupid.
By the fact that I genuinely can't tell whether you mean it's too powerful or too weak, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's actually fairly balanced.
The hitbox is pretty BS, aka, too big.
But you can dodge it incredibly easily, and then Demo flies past you at 18m/s and you make up a ton of distance.
That's what I mean, Demo players could say it's BS because it's so easy to miss it entirely.
I expect what you mean by "BS" is more related to ping and latency.
As I was reading the comments, a thought occurred to me. I was thinking of other killers who saved stacks of STBFL with alternate attacks. Then it hit me. Nemesis. Checked his cooldown on his tentacle attack. Just as I thought, it’s a 2.5 second cooldown attack. Same function as Demo and Pig but has a way to save stacks AND has a recovery that’s faster than an M1. This is great proof that the 2.7 change on the two would be more than balanced. I agree pig needs more, but personally, I just want to use the STBFL play style more effectively.
Nemesis's special also takes three hit to down a survivor.
Ah #########, you right. That’s a good point. Darn, thought I had something that could convince the devs if they saw the post. I still think it’s was a forgotten change, as before the patch that buffed the CD’s, the two attacks shared the recovery of basics. It was designed in mind to have the same properties before they did the change. But good job catching me on false proof.
You also seem to forget both Demo and Pig have valid secondary power.
Let's say Nemesis's secondary power is kinda unreliable.
I think Demo is in decent spot.
Pig needs buff to her crouch+ambush, even if it would be trade off for trap nerf.
i think special attacks should have higher cooldown then basic attacks so I don't see anything wrong.
Depends on what type of special attack.
Oni's special attack makes sense.
Pig's special attack? Really?
special attacks are generally anti-loop. they're not really suppose to machine gun the survivor unless that is the strength of the killer. I'd say pig falls under that. it's underpowered anti-loop. If pig's ambush was buffed to work properly, it would be around strength of old Leatherface's 1 charge chainsaw without instant down part.
How do you have strength equal of something that insta down without insta down? That's still way weaker version of that.
Don't get me wrong, it shouldn't be equal, but I just don't like that wording.
If you have longer CD than basic attack, then it has to be worth it. Ambush is definetly not worth it. I usually use it only on obsession, because I use STBFL on pig.
It's mostly useless, when you crouch survivor will just holdW away and you can basically use it only on loops where you would have good chance to make a hit even with M1.
Ambush and crouch need buff.
Most special attacks are fine, just Pig is really weak imo.
She gets basically punished for her Traps, where new players don't know how it works and keep dying, so her Kill rate is high even tho she is considered one of weakest killers...
I get a lot of mileage out of Ambush on Pig. You need to use it from a stealth scenario, not at a loop. Most loops, unless they completely obscure the survivors view, won't be cleared with an Ambush, even if it had a shorter charge/cooldown.
Ambush from around a corner before the survivor is aware, basically counters any form of 'hold w', you can hit them before they get a chance to gain any ground from running away, and before they get to a loop in the first place.
I honestly get more mileage out of crouching than the charge attack itself. The charge attack saves me 2 STBFL stacks at best, but the loud announcement of my arrival typically gives Survivors time to reach the window/pallet of the jungle gym they are in. To be fair, the open gens don't have the pallet/window as easily accessible, but they are also proportionately harder to sneak up to. I think Pig should get Devious points for hits after crouching, as that seems to be the hardest category to get BP in as her.
I think Pig's innate slowdown is a strong enough power to win most matches through attrition, but it requires Bloodlusting filler pallets against the Survivors with skill. That doesn't feel good or like you outskilled them, but it gets the job done. I understand people wanting more for her, but I think they would be better served with a Killer with a different playstyle.
Do you know what is an issue with this?
You don't need to use ambush from stealth. You can just stand up and M1. Using M1 from stealth is also more quiet and works for STBFL.
Ambush is loud and you risk SB, but they better not remove it. I love that sound.
What you talk about is 100% from crouch, not ambush.
There is small number of loops where ambush is valid antiloop, but it doesn't work if survivor won't let you go behind pallet and just predrop it.... or they just run away when you crouch, but you can fake it.
I usually get hit not by using ambush, just by faking it and get them to leave the loop...
i am not saying pig ambush is of good strength. I am saying it has potencial to have good strength that it does not need reduced attack cooldown at base-kit.
Pig's ambush charge is weak because it does not have enough movement speed, enough duration and it takes too long to charge+all add-on related to it are severely under-tuned in term of being able to hit the survivor.
they just run away when you crouch, but you can fake it.
from my experience, you actually cannot fake ambush charged against good survivor at base-kit. you can perfectly stand in specific positions where you can time the 1 second charge time and move outward toward loop where pig physically cannot hit you. If you try to cancel it, then survivor can run back to the loop. they also give you that baby mode-type roar in case you cannot count 1 second in your head. you can hear gradation of roar sound to know exact moment where pig will charge. there is perfect distance where pig cannot hit you but you can still return to the pallet from missed cooldown. that is what I do as survivor when playing vs pig if they ever use ambush charge. at base-kit, ambush charge is just pathetic.
I think only way you can hit survivors is those weird add-on related to miss attack cooldown. I believe one of them is called syringe and the other is workshop geese. the idea is that you charge on purpose to barely miss survivor as they leave loop. As survivor attempts to go back to loop, your 50% missed attack cooldown catches the survivor off guard and you get hit by an m1. I don't know why it is designed this way, but the ironic best way to use pig's power as anti-loop is to miss ability.
Well, if you're genuinely sneaking up on survivors, you shouldn't be ambushing, for the simple reason if you time it right you don't get your TR as you stand up, and potentially get a grab off of a gen or totem.
If they stand up and miss the grab, you still get a m1, but you have the potential to get 2 health states. If you ambush instead, you are guaranteeing you only get 1 health state, and giving a warning to survivors that may result in you being dodged.
Ambush is only genuinely the best choice when you're mindgaming at pallet, and the survivor isn't w-ing away, and you force them to take a 50/50. Experienced survivors don't bother waiting at pallets, they just run away the moment the Pig crouches to the next loops cause she's now slow and can't keep up.
How about this:
we ramp up Pigs ambush movement speed a bit, delay her roar a little bit, so that it doesn't startle survivors before she even starts moving and here is the kicker: give her aura reading while charging her ambush, as you often have no idea about the actual situation and kinda move in blind. Yes, I know that aura reading as basekit would be really strong, but I think it would be OK with Pigs ambush, as its such an impractical power and has a lot of hoops to jump through, it would not a scratched Myers peek and sneak.
Or if you're going to get the hit either way, use the most fun option. Ambush.
Oh I agree, ambushing is waaaaay more fun. When you do get to mind game at pallet, its amazing... but... if you wanna play optimally, ambush is usually not your best choice, and grabs are the way to go 😅
Unless they're already injured, in which case....
Amanda letter provides aura reading when crouched. the peeko play-style is an add-on. the main reason why pig players dislike using stealth is 96%(?) m/s for moving when crouched. it is significant decrease in m/s compare 115% that heavily punishes time efficiency for pig using her power. for that reason, player only use that add-on if they play a small indoor map like gideon or perhaps lery's.
for me personally, I don't need a roar sound to deduce when pig is starting the dash. I can approximate the start of her dash by noticing when she stands still in-chase. A change like hurts new/inexperienced player more then experienced players. As I stated in my post, you can predict how far pig can go before the dash starts so you know how far you to need to be for her to miss. Pig chase's kinda seems balanced around new players. It is similar to sadako invisibility in chase in my opinion.
Welp, it seems I got my answer to my question/feedback. The Xenomorphs tail attack has a 3 second recovery on both hits and misses. They are aware that the recovery is slower than basics. It’s weird because Xenomorph can be knocked out of his power. Despite me wishing Pig and Demo get that 10% on their special attacks, It’s now proven to be design philosophy. Happy Demo got a slight buff in the update so it’s still a win. Hopefully Pig gets buffs to her chase power in the future. Gl on your lunging, folks!