Pig Mains:
Anyone who cares about The Pig: please give her a buff she's really weak and low tier. I beg you.
BHVR: Hmm... Okay, fair enough, we did just give her cosmetics and we got a lot of backlash form her nerf, maybe we can make up for it this time!
Also BHVR: Make her already useless lunge ability stack with no perks, making it even more useless. Destroys her RBTs and lunge as well, what's next? Her crouch no longer hides her TR? Nerfs her again upon people requesting some of her add ons become basekit.
People who (used to) care about The Pig:
Comments
The nerfs are not necessary at all.
But she's Fun™ now!
You dont lose tokens with STBFL.
If you use the ambush.
@se05239
I wish I could say that meme, but that doesn't apply to her now.
She isn't even fun, there's no balance.
Then again they think the Legion change was fun with Ghostface.
@ShyN3ko
But it doesn't apply to her ambush and you don't gain tokens either.
I gain tokens without using the ambush.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QdxIHAzQOgAnd I only use the ambush vs the obssesion.
Its hard, but it fit my playstyle.
And in the video, I only test it.
This is why I have only 2 tokens.
In my other games, I have always 6-8 tokens and thats pretty cool.
For other players, its a nerf.
For me its a buff, because my playstyle.
So its 50/50.
But I love mad grid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICRIbwQjWP4@ShrekIsHot She's not supposed to be fun for you as a killer. Its more important that she's fun to face as a survivor.
@se05239
Survivor objective > Killer objective.
Yep.
I think she is still fun and getting to keep eight stbfl tokens is pretty good.
@GrootDude
It's too bad that your only form of perk synchronization is by making her M1.
I still use ambush mindgames but I absolutely love how fast I blade wipe. :P
I mean, for what it is worth, assuming that the STBFL thing is not a bug, it means she can take out the Obsession without losing stacks and then keep her stacks for the rest of the trial.
Yep
@TAG
You know it's a bug, the Devs would not give us that, at all.
This is why I am not treating this as a buff yet.
@ShrekIsHot In the patch notes it says “The pigs dash is no longer a primary attack” I highly doubt it is a bug but more so the light in the dark of an intended nerf.
I am more likely to believe that it is a bug/unintended interaction that came as a result of that change listed in the patch notes.
@GrootDude Considering that STBFL is a QoL Perk as long as the Survivor you hit still has another loop to run to, I would say that the downsides of not being able to use her dash with Dark Devotion, Infectious Fright, Sloppy Butcher, Remember Me, and literally every single Exposed Perk (including her own teachable one!) definitely outweighs the QoL buff she got with STBFL.
Especially when her dash as a chase tool just, you know, exists.
Can't say I personally see it that way. I wouldn't use any of the perks you mentioned with the exception of Sloppy Butcher and STBFL, so for me, this is upside.
Sloppy Butcher is useless in the face of the no-heal genrush meta and STBFL is a QoL Perk at best, but ok, you do you, man.
@No_Mither_No_Problem
What do you suggest then against the gen rush no heal? Patrol gens and carry Nurse's Calling? Don't commit to chases too long? Gen Pressure?
There’s really nothing you can do against Survivors who do gens optimally tbh, especially when Perks like Dead Hard and Adrenaline further mitigate the need to heal.
None of the other perks you mentioned were worth using on Pig before this change IMO. STBFL is. The only one of those perks that was improved by this change is the only one that would be good on the Pig anyways. Therefore, assuming this isn't a bug that will be patched out soon, this is a plus for the Pig overall.
Infectious Fright is good on any Killer, even if their TR is tiny, with the exception of maybe Faceghost.
Exposed Perks are also good on almost every Killer without an instadown in their base kit.
STBFL is a QoL Perk at best unless your name is Freddy Krueger or Herman Carter.
So that’s gonna have to be a no from me, dawg.
Wow, no. I disagree with just about everything you said.
@TAG
*Laughs in decisive strike*
If that’s all you have to say, then all I have to respond with is “git gud”.
Mither, you aren’t a pig main. STBFL is good on most any killer. It out classes all those other perks you mentioned, especially considering the no heal meta.
You’re one to talk. What do you think I’ll consider better in the no-heal meta: A Perk that lets me locate nearby injured Survivors immediately after having downed one and Perks that let me down Survivors in the early-game faster and punish the dumbasses who do heal, or a Perk that loses stacks simply for choosing not to totally ignore a specific Survivor and has an effect on the chase that is literally totally useless when everyone’s injured?
Well, alright, I guess I can say more.
Infectious Fright only gives you the location of someone the moment you put people down. If you choose to Hook the person you downed, that information is long irrelevant by the time you manage to make the Hook. If you try to go after someone else, you are committing to a second chase as a Killer who is not great in chases and hoping that the first person downed isn't back on their feet by the time you finish that second chase. And that's assuming you are actually able to find the second person since, again, the information you get from Infectious Fright becomes outdated very quickly. Also, I find it strange that you talk in another post about punishing people who heal in a no-heal meta. That just makes it seem like it's only good against bad players.
Exposed Perks:
Hex: Devour Hope - I struggle to see how Devour Hope is good on "almost any killer without an instadown in their base kit." Far as I can tell, against anyone not a potato, it grants you a speed burst randomly once or twice and then does nothing after that because it is gone.
Make Your Choice - Same as above. It is good on highly mobile killers with no insta-downs like the Nurse or the Spirit because they can quickly backtrack the distance needed to activate Make Your Choice. On someone like the Pig, you are kinda just hoping you are randomly bumping into the rescuer because it is not reliable to make it back in time to see who the Unhooker was unless they decide to stick around healing (which wouldn't be ideal in a no-heal meta and doubly so if you notice that you are suddenly Exposed after rescuing someone). If you focus on trying to find that person and fail to do so, you just wasted a ton of time for no benefit. More often than not, you just continue doing your normal stuff and hope that maybe you score an instadown or maybe two. Most of the time, it is just wasted unless you have a Killer that can make up for having to be a hefty distance from the hook.
Hex: Haunted Ground - It is random when it triggers (if it even triggers), and at best you can maybe get one down if you are lucky while the rest hide, leaving you with absolutely nothing once the timer runs out. Its only real use is protecting something like Ruin, and even then it is kinda down to chance and nothing more.
NOED - It only does anything during the Endgame, and against competent Survivors, you may get a down before someone cleanses it. The rest of the game where Pig needs to do well in order to have a chance, you got nothing.
Rancor - The location reveals you get from Rancor don't really do you much good compared to the aura reveal you give the Obsession, and once the Endgame happens, you are in the same scenario as NOED, only instead of potentially losing your Perk when someone finds the Totem, you lose your Perk when one single person escapes because Rancor only works on that one single person.
Iron Maiden - No.
Then there's the fact that NONE OF THIS is helpful if the no-heal meta is prevalent as you say because NONE of those perks help you at the start, and by the time they could become relevant, the Survivors are likely already injured and don't give a crap about the Exposed status.
Meanwhile, with STBFL, with each Healthy Survivor you go after (since remember, every Survivor starts out Healthy unless you are running against a full team of No Mithers, something that I can personally say I've never ever once seen before), you will be able to down them faster than the previous one because you'll have more stacks on it allowing you to continue the chase sooner than without it. And with the Obsession, you now have a way to actually deal with them without having to lose those stacks.
But with the recent change you don’t have to ignore anyone.
@TAG
"Infectious Fright only gives you the location of someone the moment you put people down. If you choose to Hook the person you downed, that information is long irrelevant by the time you manage to make the Hook. If you try to go after someone else, you are committing to a second chase as a Killer who is not great in chases and hoping that the first person downed isn't back on their feet by the time you finish that second chase. And that's assuming you are actually able to find the second person since, again, the information you get from Infectious Fright becomes outdated very quickly."
Pig is great in a chase because of her dash, but you'll never be convinced of that, so I won't even bother. All I'll say is, you can very easily go after a second Survivor while still keeping tabs on the slug, especially if you get more than one Survivor to scream when you down them. Being unable to effectively use IF on Pig is entirely the fault of the Killer.
Besides, if you down a second Survivor with IF at all (which you should be doing) then the absolute worst case scenario is you got a down while someone else was slugged and a third Survivor had to go over and heal them. A chased Survivor, a slug, and a medic. That's a total of three out of four Survivors not doing anything contributing to their objective.
"Hex: Devour Hope - I struggle to see how Devour Hope is good on "almost any killer without an instadown in their base kit." Far as I can tell, against anyone not a potato, it grants you a speed burst randomly once or twice and then does nothing after that because it is gone."
I agree with this.
"Also, I find it strange that you talk in another post about punishing people who heal in a no-heal meta. That just makes it seem like it's only good against bad players."
The punishment to those dumbasses is just an added bonus that STBFL doesn't have.
"Make Your Choice - Same as above. It is good on highly mobile killers with no insta-downs like the Nurse or the Spirit because they can quickly backtrack the distance needed to activate Make Your Choice. On someone like the Pig, you are kinda just hoping you are randomly bumping into the rescuer because it is not reliable to make it back in time to see who the Unhooker was unless they decide to stick around healing (which wouldn't be ideal in a no-heal meta and doubly so if you notice that you are suddenly Exposed after rescuing someone). If you focus on trying to find that person and fail to do so, you just wasted a ton of time for no benefit. More often than not, you just continue doing your normal stuff and hope that maybe you score an instadown or maybe two. Most of the time, it is just wasted unless you have a Killer that can make up for having to be a hefty distance from the hook."
If you can't find the Survivor within that entire 60-second time frame, then 1 of 2 things is happening:
1) The Survivor is playing immersed, in which case they aren't actually doing anything useful—soft pressure for you.
2) Your tracking is terrible.
You need to have the map knowledge and smarts to predict where the unhooked Survivor is going to go. Similar to Infectious Fright, just because a Perk requires you to use your brain a little bit doesn't make it bad.
"Hex: Haunted Ground - It is random when it triggers (if it even triggers), and at best you can maybe get one down if you are lucky while the rest hide, leaving you with absolutely nothing once the timer runs out. Its only real use is protecting something like Ruin, and even then it is kinda down to chance and nothing more."
Again, it's a 60-second time frame, and unless you're playing Spirit, the suspicion that it may be Haunted Ground will vastly outweigh the desire to remove the powerful effects of a Hex Perk for the majority of Survivors, meaning that it is very likely to get cleansed when found. And that one instadown may be all you need for the early game—something that, once more, STBFL doesn't offer.
"NOED - It only does anything during the Endgame, and against competent Survivors, you may get a down before someone cleanses it. The rest of the game where Pig needs to do well in order to have a chance, you got nothing."
I agree. However, NOED is also good in its own right in the no-heal genrush meta because the instadown effect completely negates the instaheal Survivors get from Adrenaline—the strongest advocate of the no-heal meta in the entire game.
"Rancor - The location reveals you get from Rancor don't really do you much good compared to the aura reveal you give the Obsession, and once the Endgame happens, you are in the same scenario as NOED, only instead of potentially losing your Perk when someone finds the Totem, you lose your Perk when one single person escapes because Rancor only works on that one single person."
I agree with the Exposed part—if you're boosted enough to not find your obsession with the location reveal—but once more, I think the tracking of Rancor is great if you actually know what to do with it. It shows you the location of all four Survivors, regardless of where they are—if they're together or not, their proximity to you, and, if they're at a location of importance, what they're doing. That is a very good utility.
"Then there's the fact that NONE OF THIS is helpful if the no-heal meta is prevalent as you say because NONE of those perks help you at the start, and by the time they could become relevant, the Survivors are likely already injured and don't give a crap about the Exposed status."
Only one of the Perks you mentioned is useless. Half of them work for what I ask, one directly counters the no-heal meta endgame, and one provides extremely powerful utility. Sure, I may not have been absolutely right, but they are all extremely solid and have their own place in the no-heal meta. And the ones I enjoy—HG and MYC—actually do exactly what I praised them for.
"Meanwhile, with STBFL, with each Healthy Survivor you go after (since remember, every Survivor starts out Healthy unless you are running against a full team of No Mithers, something that I can personally say I've never ever once seen before), you will be able to down them faster than the previous one because you'll have more stacks on it allowing you to continue the chase sooner than without it. And with the Obsession, you now have a way to actually deal with them without having to lose those stacks."
But what you seem to forget—or rather, are choosing to ignore—is that the tokens only increase the cooldown by increments of 5%—an extremely measly number. STBFL is only truly noticeable after reaching 3 stacks, and even without pallets nearby, is only actually relevant and useful at 4 stacks at the bare minimum. Four stacks is the equivalent to either downing two Survivors or hitting all four Survivors once. So, at best, half of the Survivors will be injured, rendering its effects useless against them, and at worst, all four will be injured, making it a completely useless Perk in the no-heal meta.
STBFL is really good for chaining hits if they group up, it is a different story if they spread out but most perks won’t help you if they spread out and tactically do gens.
So that's the only use you have for her dash, is it? To keep a QoL Perk from losing its effects? To try and make your M1 better instead of just using your remarkably strong dash ability? Is that it?
I use it for mindgames too, I even said I use ambush mindgames.
Then what's the point of ever using STBFL when you have a better M1 with more anti-loop and mindgame potential bound to your LCTRL key anyway?
It works pretty well for me, especially on Lery’s and for some reason survivors usually try to vault a window after getting hit which because of stbfl I get a free hit also whenever survivors group up I can recover fast enough to hit more than one survivor quickly.
Grouping up is an extremely dumb decision, especially when you're all injured.
Not using the on-hit speed boost for distance is an extremely dumb decision.
Your STBFL is working in the scenarios you described not because it's a good Perk, but because both the scenarios involve the Survivors making harsh, harsh mistakes.
I know they’re making mistakes, I even said earlier that grouping up was the best way to be tactical, I also said I don’t know why people waste their speed boost, the faster recovery still helps me gain distance on the survivors.
"Pig is great in a chase because of her dash, but you'll never be convinced of that, so I won't even bother. All I'll say is, you can very easily go after a second Survivor while still keeping tabs on the slug, especially if you get more than one Survivors to scream when you down them. Being unable to effectively use IF on Pig is entirely the fault of the Killer."
I don't agree that Pig is great in a chase, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. And I don't agree that you can go after the second person while keeping tabs on the first. Maybe in certain scenarios you'll be able to quickly end that chase and return to the first, but in most cases, doing that will likely cause you to lose track of the first and result in them being healed. Also, having more than one Survivor scream because of Infectious Fright does not really matter because you'll only be able to commit to one at a time unless you're just trying to scare them away from the person you slugged, in which case you really didn't accomplish all that much.
"Besides, if you down a second Survivor with IF at all (which you should be doing) then the absolute worst case scenario is you got a down while someone else was slugged and a third Survivor had to go over and heal them. A chased Survivor, a slug, and a medic. That's a total of three out of four Survivors not doing anything contributing to their objective."
I don't believe the slug and the medic will be wasting as much time as the Pig will trying to catch the second Survivor. Unless you know you are in a position to quickly down the second Survivor (which is definitely not something you can really control), you are likely better off just hooking the first person you downed.
"The punishment to those dumbasses is just an added bonus that STBFL doesn't have."
If they are healing close enough to you that you can just find them and down them using Infectious Fright, you probably don't need Infectious Fright to do it, so that doesn't really mean much of anything to me.
"If you can't find the Survivor within that entire 60-second time frame, then 1 of 2 things is happening..."
Do not agree. Unless the Exposed Survivor is being dumb, they are not going to make it easy for you to just find them. A decent Survivor can easily play keep-away and wait out the 60-second timer. Even if they are found, the Pig has already used a decent amount of time to find this person (it is naive to think you'll consistently find that person and still have plenty of time on the clock), so they don't even need to survive in a chase for the full 60 seconds to make the perk go to waste.
"Again, it's a 60-second time frame, and unless you're playing Spirit, the suspicion that it may be Haunted Ground will vastly outweigh the desire to remove the powerful effects of a Hex Perk for the majority of Survivors, meaning that it is very likely to get cleansed when found. And that one instadown may be all you need for the early game—something that, once more, STBFL doesn't offer."
Just because it is likely to be cleansed when found does not mean that you will reliably be able to get the down in that time frame unless you are already in the middle of a chase when it happens. It can certainly be good when the cards line up right and you do score a down with it, but simply by the nature of what it is, it is not consistent/reliable.
"I agree. However, NOED is also good in its own right in the no-heal genrush meta because the instadown effect completely negates the instaheal Survivors get from Adrenaline—the strongest advocate of the no-heal meta in the entire game."
In the scenario where multiple people are running Adrenaline, you'll snuff out maybe one before the totem is knocked out (assuming you aren't dealing with potatoes). Did it do something? Sure. Was it worth being down a perk for the whole game as one of the weaker Killers (IMO) in the game? Not really, no. That's why I don't like NOED even on weaker Killers: It makes the Killer even worse during the majority of the game under the hope that maybe you can make up for it in the last leg if the Survivors aren't competent enough to take it out or just leave anyways.
"I agree with the Exposed part—if you're boosted enough to not find your obsession with the location reveal—but once more, I think the tracking of Rancor is great if you actually know what to do with it. It shows you the location of all four Survivors, regardless of where they are—if they're together or not, their proximity to you, and, if they're at a location of importance, what they're doing. That is a very good utility."
I don't agree. Just getting the location of the Survivors doesn't do much good IMO because that info quickly becomes irrelevant unless you are right there by them already. In that regard, I think it is just a worse Bitter Murmur with a worse NOED tacked on.
"Only one of the Perks you mentioned is useless. Half of them work for what I ask, one directly counters the no-heal meta endgame, and one provides extremely powerful utility. Sure, I may not have been absolutely right, but they are all extremely solid and have their own place in the no-heal meta. And the ones I enjoy—HG and MYC—actually do exactly what I praised them for."
Sorry, I personally don't see it that way. I don't think any of the perks you mentioned are useful. If you find success with them, more power to you, but from my point of view, they just do not cut it on the Pig.
"But what you seem to forget—or rather, are choosing to ignore—is that the tokens only increase the cooldown by increments of 5%—an extremely measly number. STBFL is only truly noticeable after reaching 3 stacks, and even without pallets nearby, is only actually relevant and useful at 4 stacks at the bare minimum. Four stacks is the equivalent to either downing two Survivors or hitting all four Survivors once. So, at best, half of the Survivors will be injured, rendering its effects useless against them, and at worst, all four will be injured, making it a completely useless Perk in the no-heal meta."
The way I see it, it is putting in work after downing the first person. Starting with the second person, it is showing off its results and allowing you to end chases quicker. Then, while people are all injured, you can still accumulate tokens for later when everyone does get their Adrenaline. From there, you've got a bunch of tokens that can be used to get those two hits in quickly, and unlike something like NOED, they can't just take that away from you.
"And I don't agree that you can go after the second person while keeping tabs on the first. Maybe in certain scenarios you'll be able to quickly end that chase and return to the first, but in most cases, doing that will likely cause you to lose track of the first and result in them being healed. Also, having more than one Survivor scream because of Infectious Fright does not really matter because you'll only be able to commit to one at a time unless you're just trying to scare them away from the person you slugged, in which case you really didn't accomplish all that much."
I will ignore your first point since I won't be able to convince you that Pig's high-tier chase tool is high-tier.
As for your second point: Tabs and tracking. That's all.
"I don't believe the slug and the medic will be wasting as much time as the Pig will trying to catch the second Survivor. Unless you know you are in a position to quickly down the second Survivor (which is definitely not something you can really control), you are likely better off just hooking the first person you downed."
This just circles back to me understanding that Pig is a good chaser with her dash and you not believing so, so I'm not going to bother.
"If they are healing close enough to you that you can just find them and down them using Infectious Fright, you probably don't need Infectious Fright to do it, so that doesn't really mean much of anything to me."
The idea of punishing the people who do heal had literally nothing to do with Infectious Fright. Also, Infectious Fright tells you where all Survivors are within your Terror Radius—which is a minimum of 32 for the Pig and a maximum of 40 if you're running Monitor and Abuse.
I didn't realize having tracking of up to 40 meters away meant nothing. I apologize.
"Do not agree. Unless the Exposed Survivor is being dumb, they are not going to make it easy for you to just find them. A decent Survivor can easily play keep-away and wait out the 60-second timer. Even if they are found, the Pig has already used a decent amount of time to find this person (it is naive to think you'll consistently find that person and still have plenty of time on the clock), so they don't even need to survive in a chase for the full 60 seconds to make the perk go to waste."
1) If they're playing immersed, they aren't doing anything.
2) If they're doing they're objective but go immersed when you approach them, you aren't using Pig's stealth well at all.
3) Again: Pig is a high-tier chaser. Agree to disagree.
"Just because it is likely to be cleansed when found does not mean that you will reliably be able to get the down in that time frame unless you are already in the middle of a chase when it happens. It can certainly be good when the cards line up right and you do score a down with it, but simply by the nature of what it is, it is not consistent/reliable."
60 seconds. A full minute of all four Survivors being on a 1-hit down. If you can't get at least one down using a combo of Pig's stealth to sneak up on gens and her dash to mindgame at loops (though that's now useless, but that's exactly why this isn't a buff), then it's not because HG isn't a good Perk.
If Michael can do it, so can you.
"In the scenario where multiple people are running Adrenaline, you'll snuff out maybe one before the totem is knocked out (assuming you aren't dealing with potatoes). Did it do something? Sure. Was it worth being down a perk for the whole game as one of the weaker Killers (IMO) in the game? Not really, no. That's why I don't like NOED even on weaker Killers: It makes the Killer even worse during the majority of the game under the hope that maybe you can make up for it in the last leg if the Survivors aren't competent enough to take it out or just leave anyways."
Big disagree on that one.
NOED isn't Ruin. It doesn't get cleansed that fast.
"I don't agree. Just getting the location of the Survivors doesn't do much good IMO because that info quickly becomes irrelevant unless you are right there by them already. In that regard, I think it is just a worse Bitter Murmur with a worse NOED tacked on."
Again, I just don't think tracking and map pressure is your strong-suit. If you see a Survivor at a gen, at a Jigsaw box, or with another Survivor, that is incredibly valuable info that you'll want to capitalize on.
"Sorry, I personally don't see it that way. I don't think any of the perks you mentioned are useful. If you find success with them, more power to you, but from my point of view, they just do not cut it on the Pig."
Well, from what I hear, that results less from these Perks being bad and more from you just not knowing how to effectively use them.
"The way I see it, it is putting in work after downing the first person. Starting with the second person, it is showing off its results and allowing you to end chases quicker. Then, while people are all injured, you can still accumulate tokens for later when everyone does get their Adrenaline. From there, you've got a bunch of tokens that can be used to get those two hits in quickly, and unlike something like NOED, they can't just take that away from you."
1) No, it does physically nothing before 4 stacks. Before 4 stacks, its effects are about as useful as Resilience is on healing other Survivors.
2) Having a fast cooldown for a 2-hit chase is much, MUCH worse than having a 1-hit down with higher base speed. There's no arguing that. And, again, NOED doesn't get cleansed that fast. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. That extra hit can and will be just what the Survivor needs to get away—most likely to an exit gate—and STBFL does nothing to solve that.
3) They can take that away from you by forcing you to use your dash, which is not affected by STBFL. How do they do this? Through running around loops that can't be mindgamed with a basic M1 attack.
"Oh, but the pallets will be gone by then!" No, they won't. Don't kid yourself.
Why do you have unrelenting?
@Rasinbran
I was just testing stuuuuuuuuff.
I had Play with you food, too.
I was testing which perk works with the ambush.
You lose still tokens with the ambush, by Play with your food.
Fair enough.
I know this stuff was days ago but please don't fight guys over petty things, Pig is not super awful to play but she's no where near good at stopping looping, I find Devour Hope to be OP on her.