Skull Merchant set a bad precedent
So recently, Houndmaster's add on 'knotted rope' was nerfed massively.
Knotted Rope - basic attack cooldown when hitting grabbed survivors is reduced by 2% (Down from 10%)
If that sounds terrible, it is. BHVR, by their own words, made this add on intentionally horrifically bad and unusable so that way they could 'avoid it being potentially problematic and revisit it in 2025'. Don't believe me? Thats their official statement!
BHVR has now realized that instead of just balancing their game and making proper adjustments, its more efficient to just nerf something so badly that no one uses it and then MAYBE look at it later on down the line whenever they feel like it.
This is a slap in the face to me. My favorite houndmaster add on was destroyed just like my favorite killer Skull Merchant and BOTH for the same reason. I can't even say that, no one complained about knotted rope literally no one. So just know guys, if anything is overpowered or overtuned, or even if BHVR thinks it MIGHT be overtuned, they will nerf it straight into the ground and wait until they feel like changing it.
Comments
To be fair, its very much depending on context. Should the devs cave into every brat's whim the game is pretty much going to die on its own. What we know about merchant is that she had a "high kill rate" and that there were many DCs against her. Why? Was it because she op? Was it because people held a grudge? That first one we'd agree Bhvr should do something, that second we'd argue ignore them cause then your practically enabling and telling the children "if we do this then we can nerf anything we want". There needs to be a balance.
if player are d/cing 33%-50% of the matches, the game is 3vs1 in half the matches. I don't think that is a problem with skull merchant itself. More of a problem of entitled survivors. Looks like d/cing has stopped because her kill-rate is near very bottom. I'm sure there is still some random baby rage d/c here and there but majority of the matches seem to be played out.
According to SM players, everyone was DC'ing as soon as they saw it was SM.
The DCs do still happen:
No camping, no tunneling, no slugging, no BM of any kind. Just the character.
It just confirms what I've been saying: those who refuse to learn how to play against a character that isn't problematic should never get their way. This isn't how things should be done.
Twins are not exactly well-liked. It could have been a grudge there too.
You are treating it like there's some coordinated effort from players to make sure SM is unplayable. Most people don't care that much.
Except, even then, her KR was 70%.
DC matches aren't even counted.
There is CLEARLY something problematic there.
As someone who was playing SM, they were running to the hook and pointing.
I remembered this video from awhile ago...
This was a fairly average experience. People trying to die first hook IF they even bother running. This match btw counts towards that 70% killrate...
https://youtu.be/wD-__WkWR_g?si=d8zG9x3BYIEmrMPtOf course her kill rate would be high when people always DC. If they decided to stay in the game, they would have no idea what to do.
Also, in matches where a DC happens the remaining survivors are kinda screwed, there is nothing they can do. And even if you exclude ever single match where there is a DC, there are ways to bypass it: suicide on hook, people who try to suicide on hook but can't because one teammate saves them, then they just give up, players who get slugged for extended periods of time, and the list goes on.
I don't think the kill rates are reliable. Freddy has the fourth highest in the game, and he is not a good character at all. The data doesn't tell you everything..
I've really tried my best to understand why this thing has ever happened, but I couldn't.
I've read countless DLC reviews from back then. That was easily one of my worst and most infuriating DBD-related experiences I've ever had and one that I'll never try again.
To be fair, not that the Cage knew, but the first thing that SM did was put up a Drone on a gen lol
The data tells you something is wrong with SM because even other hated Killers aren't that high.
It's something unique to her. Pinhead isn't like that, Nurse isn't, Knight isn't, etc etc
I've seen a few of my Legion matches turn into bot lobbies as well…
That was on release, yes. But the slugging alone shouldn't have been enough to cause such distress. Waking someone up takes, like, 3 seconds? Shouldn't be impossible to deal with.
Because the other hated killers didn't have a problematic release.
Well, Nurse was always OP, but it was a vastly different game back then. None of those have a "Chess Merchant" of their own (though that had more to do with the build, rather than the killer power, but that is beside the point).
That makes the data for her different than others, but still doesn't tell you everything.
IIrc, you couldn't wake up someone slugged, and since Freddy had perma-aura reading on anyone asleep, he was very good at keeping people down, especially since you wouldn't wake up after being healed.
There was also less of a window for Survivors to make distance after being put to sleep, since Freddy didn't really slow down at all when doing so. Iirc, he also vaulted a little faster, for some reason.
Knight could do the same thing as SM on release, we've seen it in plenty of videos, yet he isn't nearly as hated.
I like to add she was hated the second they even showed her off. I remember seeing threads in the forums about how ppl hated how she looked, how boring her power was, how her lore sucked, she wasn't the cyborg killer ppl thought she was going to be, and how she was some how a failed predator chapter. Chess Merchant only added even more fuel to the hated fire. With all that has happen to SM, I firmly believe she will forever be the most hated killer in dbd history and ppl will continue to go next against her even after her next rework.
I do agree that they shouldn't have nerfed her and instead told the community that they needed to learn to play against her. I think her last rework put her in a decent spot and she could have been better with some balance changes(remember the didn't even try to torch her after her last rework, she didn't get a single balance change before they completed nerfed her to the ground). She doesn't need another complete rework, her last version was fine and just needed some small changes.
Quite the contrary, you did wake up someone who got slugged. You can see it in this video at 07:19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J0zdxZYWqsIf you are asleep, then you can't wake up someone who got slugged, but you can pick them up. Even with with the Dream World penalty if the person recovers as much as possible it should be enough to get them off the ground, especially against a killer who lacks mobility.
1 second, later increased to 3 after the nerfs. However, this was both on the Freddy player and the survivor. The lullaby gives you a warning, plus you have 7 seconds at base to find something to use, back when maps had more resources. If you fail, then Freddy should indeed get the hit.
Because Knight wasn't regarded as a problematic killer like Old Legion, OG Merchant or PTB Twins.
He may have been disliked, but he didn't reach this level. So Knight would never reach this level. That is why the data for them are different.
Well said, friend.
It did feel like a bait and switch at the time, and her look is definitely…uh, not my cup of tea. All of that is subjective though.
Her lore, on release not sure how it is now, did suck. It was objectively poorly written. Her power was…yeah, I think we all know what a master-class disaster that was.
What do you propose to do if the Killer is still vehemently hated after another rework? You can't leave her alone if she's a consistent outlier in DC's and suicides.
To be fair, that didn't influence the cage at all... Games like this one still counted to get SM to the 70% rate people keep pointing at.
I am aware, he didn't know, I even pointed that out.
So... it was just a random unrelated observation? Neat
I was mistaken, my bad, this has been seven years now, forgive me.
Knight was considered very problematic on release due to his Guards and his being able to hold games hostage.
Yes :)
The video doesn't really mean anything, ultimately.
Looks like he's checking gens for progress while hitting the power as soon as it comes out of CD rather than trying to put drones at gens. Without lethal, this is basically the only way you're gonna spot survivors on a map like this early game.
Other than map sense or not picking NOED/Lightborn.
Look, I like Spook, but he's a reaction guy. He tries to get reactions, and he plays that way to get them. I'm not saying the Nic isn't in the wrong, but Spook got what he wanted, an easy video.
There was no bait and switch at all. All we got from a teaser was a picture of a skill with some tech in it. It's the community's fault for reading so much into a teaser and just believing we was going to get a cyborg killer. Ppl set themselves up for failure, BHVR didn't bait and switch them. As for the other stuff, all of it is subjective even her lore imo. I liked her design, I liked the idea of a killer using drones, and I liked her lore. Sure her power was poorly designed at first but the idea behind her power was cool and imo her last rework did fix a lot of the issues her power had on release. Also about her Lore, it may been poorly written to some but at least it was different! Before her all-female original killers lore always painted them as victims, nothing super original in their stories whatsoever. At least SM is a killer bc she wants to kill ppl, she was forced or felt like she needed to kill bc some tragic event that happened in her life. Name one female killer in dbd that devs came up with themselves that is not some victim?
Either way, I agree with GeneralV you don't rework her and tell ppl to learn to play against her. Maybe even make videos on how to counter her and play against her. She didn't need another rework after her last one. At most, she just needs some small changes to raise her skill floor and raise her skill ceiling. Again after her last rework, BHVR didn't touch her again till this past oct when they decided to nerf her to the ground with the promise of a future rework that could take years to do. If they put in the same effort into SM as they are doing to newer killers like Dracala and Chucky then she would most likly be in a even better spot. I don't think the rework will do anything bc ppl will continue to hold their hatred for her and will DC/go next against her no matter what her power is. This means all the time she is in a such poor state and the time the dev is wasting on reworking her will amount to nothing. Time that could be used for much more important things.
No worries :)
Yes, but not quite in the same level. You can find some complaints about Knight, sure.
But it doesn't seem to me he was ever considered a problem of the same category as PTB Twins, or Old Legion.
Thank you, my friend <3
This is abit older, but still gives an idea of what survivors were doing to dodge the penalty. A guy tried to die, got saved and followed the killer.
https://youtu.be/iKL14OS9daU?si=xCmr7WJUkGZ6TxZMYou welcome firend
More in line with Legion, honestly.
Not actually OP, just really unfun and bad design.
I'm not denying this happened a lot, or still does, I'm saying these videos don't really matter.
I can find videos of people sticking aroundfor fifty minutes to beat her with 0 hooks, it doesn't really demonstrate anything.
Is SM not also a victim then, by your standard?
Her father dies and it forces her into this ruthless lifestyle. It's a different way, but she's still a victim of circumstance.
So then, what's the solution? Just leave her with a 70% KR and massive community hatred with no SM being able to finish a game? That's what leaving her alone would do.
It demonstrates why the 70% killrate means nothing. Even when using tame builds and 0 slowdown, ppl were doing this.
I can think of a few other killers who fit this description.
No doubt, I really feel that DBD's code is holding it back from being more creative with Killer designs…and also looking better.
While you're mostly correct, I do think Chucky and Dracula show that BHVR is willing to deviate a bit from the standard formula. Chucky bringing in 3rd person and Dracula with his shapeshifting between multiple forms opens a lot of doors.
Houndmaster even incorporated 3rd person slightly with her redirect function.
I just hope future designs use it in more creative ways. If Twins was made today, 100% Victor would probably be third person
Honestly yes, you leave her be and do balance changes like they are doing to Dracula and other newer killers. The thing is I rather them do this and tell the community to learn how to play against her than what they doing now. The "solution" they chose to do isnt a good one at all. It wasn't a good thing when they did it to Freddy, wasn't good for SM and it's not good for HM rope addon. Doing this only sets a bad precedent esp when it comes to SM bc it sends a message of "If ppl complain enough about something it will lead to devs nerfing that something into the ground with the promise of reworking it months or even years later." Leaving SM in a state that makes her a F-tier killer for what easily could be years isn't a solution. Its like sweeping your mess under the bed and saying "I clean that up later." Watch what I tell you, SM rework will be pushed back and we won't be getting it late next year, it be like twins all over again where she be worked on for 2 years and when it does happen it won't make an ounce of difference. Time and resources will be wasted on something that should never been reworked to begin with.
True, but I'm talking burrowing, dynamic map destruction from some Killers, better effects, more verticality etc etc
So instead, you propose we do nothing and pretend there isn't an issue?
Is that not the same thing?
I never said do nothing…I said they need to do what they doing to killers now, make balance changes, and not a compete rework. Again we talking about a killer who wasn't touched at all for a year after her last rework. They left her in the same state for a year and never tried to make slight adjustments to her kit. Instead, they just cave to the complaints and decide "F*** it" and throw everything out the window, nerfed her to be the worst killer in the game, and told us to wait for "year" for them to "fix" her. How is that a good solution.
The "other solution" was to micro-change her, making nobody happy except people who used her to troll.
New flash…ppl can use anything to troll in this game or any game in that matter. Reworking SM isnt going to magiclly going to get rid of trolls. You live in the age of the internet, trolls will always be around no matter what. Let's rework a killer bc trolls use her…that amazing reason to do it… Either way, we never agree on anything. I seen you on the forum long enough to know you have always hated SM and no matter what I say will ever change your mind about that fact. You are the primal example that no matter what they do to this killer ppl will always hate her. Anyway, Im done with this and I am moving on. I leave it at this, she was completely fine after her last rework, and reworking her again is only wasting time that could be used to show killers who need the help of love. Have a nice day…
Not really, we just have an issue when silly things happen due to what we perceive as unreasonable whining. The whole "We should disregard that feedback and carry on?" In certain cases that answer is yes. Hell the 3 of us don't even know if her previous iteration was genuinely good or bad due to only having 5 games where no one quit first thing.
Denying that SM was used the most to troll is silly. We all know her history, how people picked her not to win, but to make others miserable by trapping them in a game.
If we don't really change her, but just give her number tweaks, that isn't going to make the SM mains happy. Her issues run deeper than what number changes can provide, she wouldn't be viable. It would also do nothing to improve their ability to play the game.
As a studio, I don't think you survive very long by ignoring outcry from a majority of your playerbase, respectfully.
We're going to have to just disagree on that.
As I said in my last post, we going to have to agree to disagree and move on. Im not going to waste any more time of my life arguing with someone like you. What they did to SM was wrong and bad game design no matter what the reasoning is and we never going to see eye to eye on that.
As a company, I don't think you'd last very long if you sold a product, then severely gutted the proformance of that product afterwards with the sole intention of detering people from using said product and instead buying one of their OTHER products. The nerfs that were done in the past to various perks/addons/ect were all done for the sake of balance, not to try to lower it's usage to 0.
Perhaps not, but I've seen that argument made for whenever BHVR nerfs something in their first balance patch after release, which is coincidentally usually when they start hyping up a new chapter.
Where did they say they wanted SM's pick rate to be zero?
You understand they can't openly say those words because it would be grounds for a lawsuit, correct? There's a massive difference between small adjustment for balance sake and what they did recently which would be better defined as sabotaging a product that was already sold.