There is now no incentive to p100 a survivor
Give the players the CHOICE to pick wether they show their prestige or not in the same fashion as anonymous mode. If this doesn't prove to be effective, DON'T ALLOW killers to see what prestiges the survivors are. JUST LIKE THE SURVIVORS CAN'T SEE THE KILLERS PRESTIGE... I got all p3 on all survivors and i wanted to aim towards something and now it's gone and I have no incentive to keep playing anymore. It really sucks for people who thinks like me
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We still doubt you'll find what you're looking for, but you're polite enough that we'll lend a claw. Most of our groups think prestige as a mockery, just throwing that there as food for thought.
Now as for that specific cadavet mentioned above, someone on the forum made a post asking to show prestige in the prelobby lobby, the lobby where swfs group up (don't know who posted as I personally did see not do I wish to hunt it down). Would this be acceptable? It allows people to show off to friends or strangers they grabbed for a swf without outside content, is hidden in the actual lobby so killers and randoms don't see it and start running and screwing over matchmaking, and is still shown to everyone at the end.
I will say and agree that pre lobby is obviously part of the equation for me, but it's not the whole thing. The fact that you 3 thinks the same of that matter prove it's going to be hard to agree on that matter. I would say 15 of my private dbd friends in the server I have been in for the past 6 months think otherwise of that decision. but I'm trying to not bring my own echo chamber into the conversation has we as a group both obviously do not pursue the same goals as you 3. My opinion on the matter remains that it should be something to be proud about and if I want to be proud about it I should be allowed to show everyone I am a proud to play X character to that point. Why is everyone so hostile to a meaningless badge as so much of you folks, to the point of mocking it? Can't we be proud of achievements and want to show everyone? I sure as hell do, I love this game. I don't want to leave because of a poor deciscion(in my perspective), I want to stay and keep playing for the very goal I have been playing this game for! So I voice and I say this with heart, I want to show that I am proud of what I have accomplished in this game and it was a very nice way to do so! But now I can't and I'm a little sad about it. Cheers to you 3.
I have seen P100s who looped really badly and P3s who looped like Gods.
It's dumb to judge skill by prestige.
I agree, this is why I am glad for the lack of them in lobbies.
I get what you are saying Coffeecrashing but my question is what nefarious thing you believe BHVR might hide by not letting people see MMR. What is is you think they're doing with MMR that is so controversial? That's what I am curious about.
It only hard to agree on the mater because you are not putting good arguments or facts against our points. You haven't really stated a solution to the problem of what would happen if hiding prestige became optional (and some of our points you outright simply seem to ignore). If you want a hope in the fog to sway us, you need facts as we're semi reasonable (long as it don't concern
object).Now before you try painting us and our friends as some villain group we will remind the class that we Rulebreakers are chaotic neutral (the other's alignments may vary but we think everyones neutral something). Not all of our mocking is hostile (as some friends do have p100 chars and they're equally mocked), but to the point: There have been countless p100s who keep trying to act like their amazing as survivor, keep trying to agrivate us into getting our attention as killer, in general act like dip sticks and care to gues what happens? They fall…often, hard, and many will even swing on hook when it happens despite the team doing good (we occasionally think its shame but thats us being petty).
While your opinion is your own there are two facts that you should be aware of. First: You can have a p100 char without ever touching them (that in of itself is actually funny). Second: Your still free to be proud of it and you can still show everyone, at the end screen. Its not like its hidden at the end (we think, we admittedly don't pay attention to prestige so as of this typing we don't know if its hidden at the end screen, we'll see soon) so after the match is done everyone who wants to show off can and those who care can see then.
Thats entirely your call but with all due respect, we feel thats a pathetic reason to leave. Its not affecting balance, how the game plays, adding broken things…its just hiding a simple badge till the end so people dodge less in the beginning. If you really loved this game as much as you claim, this should not be the straw that breaks the camels back unless there was an ulterior reason that this is affecting you so much (we're looking at the accusations of you wanting to lobby shop).
I do not have the energy nor the motivation to convince you folks of anything because clearly you say that my arguments are not good enough but this is based on your opinion and I did, multiple times I would add, address as much as you are throwing at me. Yet nothing seem the make your opinion on matter budge. I do not know how to put it in different words, accusing me of lobby shopping when I queue 4 stack 85% of the time is something wild to me. I am not here to defend myself but to address my concerns and what I cared about. Sorry if it didn't match your persona ideology or whatever you're picturing your trio as.
We've re-read everything and still haven't seen answers to the following issues:
1: You can't make it optional because then its just the same as not hiding it.
Players dodge based on prestige, we can debate how much but this is a fact. If you make it optional players will also dodge based on that since your "hiding" something. You've said in a past post: "Again, in ANONYMOYS MODE FASHION. Which means, the pestige icon would be HIDDEN." but as far as we can tell it would only hide that players prestige no? Should someone notice they cant see that persons prestige they will base that to dodge as if it was shown anyway. Ex: "I can see everyones prestige but I cant see dwight's prestige, he must be a p100 or noob, im not going to take the chance [proceeds to bail]". Making it so if one person hides it then everyone is hidden? Not gonna work either. Ex: "Hey my prestige is hidden, someones hiding something. [bails]." This is the main point of arguing about making it optional. You can show everyone or no one at the beginning, but making it optional does not work for this reason. This is also the reason A/B/C test would not work (we FINALLY figured that one out [took embarrassingly to long]) How do you solve this problem?
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2: How can shoppers actually shop with even less info to go off of?
You've said before (or as we understood it atleast) that assumption is a root problem. We countered with how hiding prestige removes an assumption which you then go on to say that dedicated shoppers will use more ridiculous methods. We then say that it then doesn't become shopping (the definition we use is: "Intentionally looking for an easier match by repeatedly leaving and joining and looking at different lobbies of players") as its effectively random leaving. How are they able to actually shop this way as its just guessing thats more random than before? (prestige does not equal skill yes, but the shoppers put enough stock in it to think so and hence used that)
You also said this: "If killers never can see the prestiges of survivors they would NOT dodge. It would be the same as of right now on that matter." because it has now finally happened via hiding prestige. Also you "As for survivors, people already dodge anonymous modes,default skins, globe players, this won't affect anything in that regard." your correct but neglected something. Now survivors wont dodge due to a teammates prestige.
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3: Uncertainty about what you want.
From what we gather you simply want hiding prestige to be an option, consequences be damned as we see from here: "Hiding is not a problem in itself. It's hiding it for EVERYONE that is the problem for me. I don't want to hide it. It should be an OPTION." Why? Since the first problem still stands its like not having an option at all, only the illusion of it. You can still even show off all that dedication at the end screen so why is it so important to show it at the start where people can still dodge? If you say something along the lines of "accomplishment" below has a rebuttal.
You also said this previously to kit_mason: "My fun was increasing that meaningless number." We ask why it stopped being fun since you can still increase it. Ego? You said its not an ego thing with: "removing features from the game isn't about ego really, it's about people working together towards a goal and being able to monitor your friends progress without needing external means to do so." yet in that same comment we have: "We need to understand that it's a badge and letting showing off their dedication to whoever they want is a goal in itself that many PVP GAMES encourage."….that bolded part is explicitly an ego thing. Also you: "My opinion on the matter remains that it should be something to be proud about and if I want to be proud about it I should be allowed to show everyone I am a proud to play X character to that point." You wish people to be allowed to show off their prestige which is also an ego thing, specifically their egos. We all agree having some ego in a game isn't bad, but you are also contradicting yourself.
We even offered an alternative with someone else's idea, but you said: "I will say and agree that pre lobby is obviously part of the equation for me, but it's not the whole thing". By "whole thing" do you mean that you want it shown across the lobbies or "whole thing" as theres another reason? If so whats that reason? The above "must be an option regardless of anything else"? You wish to strive towards your goal of becoming p100? Nothings stopping you but you. Have it have meaning by being able to show others? Those that actually care can see at the end screen, you can still tell your friends, and the alternative offered allowed it for friends (and shanghaied swf mates) to see before the match (and remember one of your "solutions" was having killer never see prestige, so having it shown in the normal lobby would be pointless and random survivors may still dodge if teammates outside the swf can see prestige).
Lastly you say you don't want to leave from their decision. The fact that your thinking of leaving because of that decision paints your intentions in a much different light. We are giving the benefit of the doubt and not accusing you of wanting to lobby shop, but from our eyes somethings off if something like this is gonna make you go. You can still go to your goal, you can still show off to friends, you can still show off to randoms at the end…like what the hell? Maybe its us not understanding but the way it looks is defiantly not good.
These need straightened out before we can even attempt to come up with something satisfactory. What explicitly do you want.
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We may be harsh, but we are genuinely trying to help you find a middle ground you'd like. We went out of our way to line up all the problems we've had no answers to, can you solve these definitively or at least to a "good enough" standard by the masses?
And no, I’m not interested in you trying to argue on which of the above things might be true. That’s not the point. The point is there are things that would make people upset if they were true and made public, and those are possible things MMR might do, that would make players upset if they knew about it.
Because really, the whole “We don’t want to show MMR because we don’t want to cause players to worry about it” explanation isn’t valid. Many PvP games show MMR, and it’s completely fine.
I hope to have made my stance on the matter clearer to you and your friends or anyone still reading this thread
You make good points and thank you for answering. I will go point by point to dissect this but I am not attacking them; you are under no obligation to defend these, nor is it my intent to argue with you. I just wanted to discuss this because I'm genuinely curious.
I do get your point and do understand. I just think that this community is so volatile that even if we saw MMRs, people would find SOMETHING to complain about with them and see perceived sleights from the Devs that just aren't happening period no matter what. I don't think showing MMR would fix it.
1: We feel that isn't the case. Sure maybe a handful will be looking for a "equal" match but as we've stated, many look for easier matches. They couldn't before find guaranteed equal matches (prestige does not equal skill after all) and they can't now. It also has nothing to do the question and issue with making prestige optional as this would be showing mmr, a different type of number with little meaning.
2: We aren't just looking at the killer prospective. Survivors do in fact dodge each other too. One survivor could be looking for a group that will carry them for example. What your suggestion for point one is is to show mmr, not prestige. If your adamant on that you should be advocating that, but people above are helpfully and occasionally indirectly explaining why we would think it's a bad idea.
3: You say teammates so why is that alternative not good enough? Because you can't show strangers? We also want to make clear that if either point 1 (yours or ours) is addressed people will still dodge on petty reasons, it wouldn't become null no matter what. We do admit that you're way, with what we are understanding is showing mmr (nothing to do with hiding prestige mind you >.>), would reduce some lobby shopping, but we would all be debating by how much and it also adds its own problems. Having the lobby average would be interesting, but not as effective as currently hiding it (if someone notices the average is higher or lower than what they want, guess whats gonna happen…), while also defeating the purpose to show others your prestige.
4[?]: You still can and your pointedly ignoring that. You also keep using the word "friends" and we got questions. What is stopping you from taking a pic, screenshot, whatever of you as a p100 and sending it to friends? What is stopping you from showing them at the end of a match you play together? What is stopping you from simply telling them? What we think you mean is strangers/everyone else. Which the end of the match, we again state, shows. Its not a big deal to show prestige, however it has cause people to dodge lobbies [fact]. To help with this the devs have hidden prestige. We again state it can not be optional feature as explained in point 1. We agree prestige doesn't equal skill, but has it stopped people from lobby shopping based off of that? (The answer is no) By hiding prestige it removes one thing people can try to base shopping off of and is actually helping the games health.
I have already seen basekit Claudettes and Megs who want to look like noobs but are actually P100 lol
And the damage is done to the lobbies they left. Also have you met the players of this game?
So you are advocating for showing mmr and prestige correct? This is different from the original post/idea but if this is what you want we'll play along. So aside from the problem of mmr not being a great indicator of actual skill (ex: tunneling, being left for dead on first hook, hook swinging causing a calvicade of bad for the remaining survivors, the killer 2 hooking everyone then letting them out, etc) as well as the "player" factor problems, this would allow your desire of showing prestige (people would more than likely focus on the mmr number) but we will ask that if you really want to go down that path of showing mmr and prestige then go fight for the mmr of the lobby and not individuals as that would effectively reintroduce the problem.
Subjective and for us that statement is false. We'll elaborate if you want, but that's off topic.
Also off topic...but yeaaa it's a problem. For what it's worth, it has gotten better than when we started (way less death threats)
2: Correct it has been answered.
3: ...umm yeah it kinda will be the same for the average p100 rank up. The only thing you can't do currently is go from p99 to p100 in front of randos. Actually now that we think on it it's the same because you can post it on the forums like a handful do already. Also trying to claim "fair" will not sway us as we've seen what others here have considered "fair".
4. Those that bother to care about things like prestige and perks the others brought will stay (or atleast look) at the end. This allows people to "show off" whatever. What fun interactions are now gone because of this change? As for "speed over quality" (for the solution of hiding prestige) think of it like this: They had a solution that's easy to implement, helps with the problem, doesn't break anything (or really shouldn't), and don't have a better alternative at the time (or moment). What reason would they NOT use it? As for speed over quality (matches), the mmr (as far as we're aware) pulls from where it last left off once someone leaves. Meaning the next closest might be relatively equal, but its more like 1/3 equal and 2/3 going to either be better or worse (mmr wise, actual skill varies).
I would say that it would be a one time thing after that change has been implemented, since they won't get any different result from shopping a couple of time, the player base that does shop will learn that it is pointless. Sure, on the spot the very first moments it won't be as good as it's going to be when the whole community knows about how LOBBY MMR works.
When I say bad behaviour, bad behaviour doesn't explicitly means egc rudeness but everything from lobby shopping, purposefully throwing a game to the egc toxicity.
3.I can't know for sure as I have never done it myself. I wanted to wait for my friends to get to p99 of theirs and we all prestige together to 100 in a pre-lobby. I know for a fact that this very situation won't happen as how lobbies works now.
4.@alen_starkly(page one of thread) mentionned a very good example of what I meant.
there's no such thing as an easy solution at the point where they are at now regarding the mmr in my opinion. To be quite honest, i never thought that the MMR wasn't fair. but after much consideration it is clear that these things needs to be related. When I first typed this thread I did not think of it as deep as of now, which is only fair after considering the opinions of other and not only mine. Again, I want to find a middle ground where expression is not hindered and the experience of speed and quality is met on an equal spectrum.
1: You used player base and learn together and that makes us skeptical. The snark aside, as long as its the lobby mmr and not individuals problem one is technically solved as far as we can think of relating to your goal. We'll remind it'll bring a host of other problems and we three personally DONT want this solution, but it will work enough to get to the goal.
Well the first one is going down slowly, the second one is slowly rising, and as we said the third is falling. We call it a win from before.
3:
…So…we're going to not explode in a bile of vitriol…and calmly re-explain the alternative someone made and we proposed. The pre-lobby where you gather your friends for a swf together would be able to see prestige. You and your friends could easily do that with this option…
4: Welp they can still match each other, just can't be based on prestige. Our sympathy (and patience for that matter) hit a low after point 3…That aside as long as your able to solve the problems we pointed then thats the way you'd want to go. What we see is something we think will be worse but thats not the concern as this is your goal.
3. I know this is an alternative, I even agreed that it was partly a solution for the matter at hand. I just had to re-specify it since it isn't an option as of right now(current patch).
I think this is the furthest we will get to agreeing on these matters. In all seriousness thank you for your input. It was nice to talk about these concern with someone that isn't on the same page and expand on it. Cheers to you and your friends!
Speaking of lobby dodging, so many killers dodge lobbies when they see survivors have many flashlights, toolboxes or medkits. Could we please hide survivors' items from killers in the pre-game lobbies? Survivors don't know anything about the killer before the match, it's not really fair for killers to know what survivors are bringing into the game.
It's fully intended that killers can change their loadouts based on what survivors are bringing into the game and there are no plans to change that, it's part of the design of the game.
Killers having visibility on what tools that are brought by survivors is healthy in my opinion. Mitigating their usefullness is a valid move considering the impact they can have in a game.
I don't trust the cosmetics, I trust how they play or I trust what they're bringing into the lobby.
Thanks also for confirming this and nipping this question in the bud, Mandy. It's absurd that people even want to have items hidden in the lobby, like how would that be fair to Killer? They can't see your addons, and Survivors can't see who the Killer is OR their addons. That makes it fair. The Killer needs to be able to strategize because items can change the game.
I would ask we maybe standardize some items though. I think maybe toolboxes could stand a bit of a standardization, and we could do something to improve keys somehow. I think maps, Medkits, and Flashlights are all fine where they are now, though I'd love to see addons that change how flashlights work the way maps and keys have them - and I think Styptics and Syringes need a MASSIVE looking at as they can create similar issues to what FTP+BU did.
That said, can you please also state whether some strategic focusing out of players (non-toxic tunnelling), hovering or patrolling of hooked Survivors or sticking around certain gen clusters near endgame, (camping), and prolonged downs for pressure (non-toxic slugging) are intended game design, as long as they are not drawing the game out or used to grief? Because that seems to be a very common misconception in this community.
If that is intended, they why are survivors allowed to change their loadouts at 5 seconds left in the lobby?
How are killers supposed to change their loadouts based on what survivors are bringing into the game, when the survivors are purposely making changes at 5 seconds, to prevent killers from changing their loadouts in reponse?
A survivors lock in before killer(say 10 seconds)could give time to them to react to these quick loadout swaps as a solution to this. Given it is enough of a problem to address it.
I feel like removing showing prestiges in lobbies was a mistake.
First, grinding to P 100 feels less rewarding now, and you can't even match with randos in lobbies anymore, because you don't know that their Yoichi is at P 100, and you could whip out your own P 100 Yoichi. A lot of fun is gone.
Second, people will keep dodging anyway. 2+ flashlights in the lobby? Dodge. At least 2 of the survivors are wearing flashly paid clothes? Dodge. You check their Steam profiles and notice they are in each others' friends lists? Dodge.
Instead of removing the ability to see Prestiges, how about you bring that back, and start penalizing lobby dodging? The real problem at the core is lobby dodging. There are many reasons for lobby dodging, but that is what ultimately messes with the MMR and matchmaking.
A killer sees 2 or more p 100 survivors and exits the lobby? Give them 5 minute penalty. They dodge another lobby? 15 minute penalty.
TL;DR Hiding prestiges just kills the fun in P 100-ing, and doesn't address the real issue - lobby dodging. Start penalizing lobby dodging, because people will dodge for many reasons.
At least create some badge or skin or whatever for P100, so if people want to show prestige, they would have a way to do it on lobby.
Punishing bad behaviours is a way to mitigate alot of the problems this game has. A minute for first warning that resets every 24 hrs is way too soft. Youre better off playing the game if the first punishment would be something between 5-10 mimutes. Other games does it and does alot more strictly than this. Removing features of the game because of a minority of people spam dodging just seems unfair to the ones who cared about these little nice things about the game. You queue for a game? From the moment you join the lobby people should take accountability for leaving.
Preaching to the walls here mate
/shrug
I will have given my best shot.
That is completely correct.
More and more things a veteran might own are removed, made invisible or sold to the newer players as well now (old rift charms). The only thing I still own, to show how long I have been playing, is the Y4 and Y5 anniversary Items. But sadly they were very rare to begin with. On my oldest main, I have only 20 of each left.
Disagreed. You can still show it off postgame. All that visible prestiges did was increase lobby dodging and thus worsen the matchmaking. Ranks weren't visible when they were in the game, it was just like now, just the name.