Hooks often feel too close together
Lately I have been trying out some wiggle off builds to see how effective they are. I've tried it on various maps as well as using petrified oaks to see if that would help and so far I have not noticed anything that makes a full loadout around wiggling off the killer worth using. Now with some help from the team yes the builds are effective, but only with help from others in my experience. There are many circumstances where this isn't even possible such as instant down power/perks that don't allow protection hits to be taken. The builds alone simply do not offer enough to be worth using. I don't think it should be this way. I think if there are wiggle off perks in the game and a survivor chooses to use them over other good perks such as dead hard then the survivor that has a full loadout based around 1 thing should benefit greatly from that. Besides that though, the hooks themselves in most matches in my experience all too often look like they simply spawned in favor of the killer. Not everywhere of course, but moreso than not I have been picked up and not even come close to wiggling off the killer WITH a full wiggle off build.
My suggestion for this is simple. Make hooks spawn further apart in places where there are multiple hooks close to each other. I don't think this is asking too much especially after having the hatch nerfed to hell.
Comments
That is literally the point. You are not supposed to reliably wiggle off by yourself literally ever, or that would be completely gamebreakingly overpowered. Hatch needed a nerf, it was a horribly designed mechanic.
So you want to loop forever with dead hard and then to wiggle out keeping the hook super away? Sounds fun.
You kind of just proved you didn't read half of what I said in the OP. First, I literally said the builds I used neglected perks like dead hard in favor of having more power leaned towards one thing. Second, the implication of my post was never what you said in yours. How can you read that and come to a conclusion like that without having a bias view on this subject? Do you think maybe I just want survivors to have a little better chance at wiggling off and in no way implied I want forever loops?
wiggling, in my opinion, is a mechanic that exists from preventing carrieng a surv around like a bag, not for you to use it as a second chance. its already kinda abused with library and BO. If there must something to be done -- adding more hooks, not moving them further.
No it is not the point. There are perks in the game that help with wiggling off the killer. They are there for a reason. Not to guarantee anything but to give you a better chance to escape the killer. The fact that we have these perks is proof to me that we are indeed supposed to have, at least to an extent, a reliable way to wiggle off the killer more often than if we did not use them. What you said was completely wrong.
If there was a build that could reliably allow you to wiggle off the killer after being downed then the meta would become everyone is slugged till death.
Self wiggle build will always be weak because it's a build that cannot be strong.
I'm sorry but this is a completely bias opinion. You literally said add more hooks. Do you even play survivor? If you do, you might want to take another look at hook spawns next time and see for yourself how close some of them are often. Your opinion on wiggling being there only to prevent killers from carrying survivors around indefinitely also sounds very bias. This mechanic falls under the same idea of the way no mither works. If you leave a survivor on the ground for too long they can pick themselves up. Well, if a killer picks a survivor up and doesn't hook them, or hook them in a fair amount of time, then yes that survivor should be able to wiggle off. Why does it sound like you think killers should be entitled to a hook if they down a survivor? Me on the other hand I am just asking for hooks to spawn a little further apart which doesn't guarantee anything but just that... hooks being a little further apart.
Again, like everyone else, you're not getting the point and jumping to a hard conclusion on this. I am merely asking for hooks to spawn a little further apart. That does not guarantee anything and it most certainly would not prevent killers from ever hooking anyone. As far as slugging goes, I already believe that slugging should punish killers who do it. If a killer leaves a survivor on the ground for too long then that survivor should be able to recover naturally. You know it makes no sense that a killer can grab a survivor, drop them, and they bleed to death... from a grab. Come on now be reasonable.
When Lery's was reworked, the hook spawns were farther apart and it was awful. It only took one Petrified Oak without any wiggle perks on anyone for me to have to slug everyone to death. I can't imagine the survivors had a fun time in those matches. The hook spawns couldn't have been that much farther apart in the reworked Lery's, and yet it caused a lot of problems in my matches. Messing with hook spawns seems fine until it works, then suddenly everyone's on the ground bleeding out for four minutes.
It'd be nice if hooks were spaced evenly throughout a map so I didn't see two hooks five feet apart and then some other area without a hook for miles, but RNG is cruel.
Bias? Mate, if your ideas of wiggling come to reality, you will spend every other game waiting 4 minutes on the ground.
Well, yes, kind of entitled. Otherwise you will spend on the ground bleeding out every game. Hooks are already too far on several maps, you can just run up, die in the corner and be sure you wiggle out.
You don't seem to understand the consequences of this.
If a killer can't feasibly get you to a hook, they won't. They'll slug you and leave you to bleed out. What a fun game that'll be... every single game.
If you really want to avoid getting hooked, you need perks; Flip Flop, Boil Over, Power Struggle, and get your team mates to sabotage hooks, or make flashlight/pallet saves.
It happens often enough already.
I'd be okay with this if hooks respawned 30 seconds after someone dies on them. It's outdated and just gets abused by survs who run to a corner with a broken hook to bleed out.
Especially frustrating on Midwich, where you can have really bad hook access made even worse by hooks being destroyed on death.
Then use the purple oak offering and bring a full wiggle build with flip fop or something; you aren't supposed to wiggle out under normal circumstances
The wiggling mechanic exists so the killer can’t take you to the basement on the complete opposite side of the map, and so that they can’t take a match hostage (since bleed out timer is paused while being carried). It is not meant to be an actual escape method in normal play ever. Wiggling related perks are intentionally weak because they would be literally gamebreakingly overpowered if they weren’t weak.
Wiggling out on your own is not supposed to be reliable even if you have a build dedicated to it.
But it is supposed to be more reliable than not having them at all. The perks are there for a reason. They offer faster wiggle progression for a reason. They are supposed to give you a better chance to wiggle off. So far I have not noticed any considerable difference in outcomes from having them than not having them. That is why I believe the perks that are used for this need to be buffed and the hooks need to be spread out more.
Is there an official statement on this or is it just your own opinion?
Or better yet 3 new hooks should spawn when 1 survivor dies on their hook. Lets also make the hooks perma highlighted so the killer always knows where they are. While were at it lets just delete the exit gates too. Killers can camp, tunnel, slug and hit us on the hook all game but its a crime against humanity if a survivor finds a way to prevent being hooked. Its almost like killers feel they are entitled to hooks no matter what. Me on the other hand, I just want hooks to spawn a little further apart and wiggle perks to be a little better. Not asking for much here.
There's a statement from Peanits that wiggling out isn't meant to be reliable:
Who is Peanits? Also I read that post and that didn't really confirm that the wiggle mechanic is only meant to prevent the killer from always basement hooking. They just said its the only thing that prevents it.
Wiggle builds generally just lack power by design unless certain conditions are met. It's very rare you will on your own wiggle off a killer's shoulder. It usually requires at minimum teammates who will bodyblock since the issue isn't that hooks are too close, but that experienced killers generally know how to move even with someone struggling extra hard due to Boil Over. You could go into flipflop and power struggle, but you still likely won't ever get it off. It's just not something people can build to do and have success without setup or teamwork.
Peanits is one of the devs. So that’s about as official of a statement as you can get.
Yes, perks should help you. Wiggle builds just can’t be that strong due to their nature, and while I could get behind Flip Flop needing a slight buff, hooks should not be spread further apart. Hook spawns are already terrible on some maps.
But being able to reliably wiggle out on your own, with or without a perk, would be beyond busted. Someone wiggling out is huge if it happens and can quickly tip the game in the survivors’ favor.
Peanits is a DbD developer. It says as much if you look at his profile page on the forum.
He says "you're not meant to reliably wiggle out." Then he goes on to say that wiggling out mostly happens when the killer gets greedy or other survivors help out: " It'll typically only happen if the killer gets greedy or poorly manages their hooks, or if the other survivors run breakout and/or take hits." If the survivor isn't meant to reliably wiggle off, then the only other option for what wiggling is reliably supposed to do is force the killer to use a nearby hook even when it's not an optimal hook.
As an aside, I dunno what's happening in your matches, but my friend lost one survivor off his shoulder due to Flip-Flop, and I've had multiple survivors wiggling off due to bad hook placement today (they weren't even running perks for it). In one of those matches, the last two people bled out, because after having one already get off my shoulder I wasn't too keen on taking the risk of trying to get them to a questionable hook. Survivors being able to wiggle off more easily is bad, because the killer's only counter is slugging. In other words, the killer's counter is to not do their objective of hooking survivors. There's no waiting it out, the situation only gets worse as the survivor crawls farther. I don't think there's any killer mechanic where the survivor's only counter is to not do their objective whatsoever.
I like to distract the killers as much as I can while my team works on gens. I'll do gens if I have to but after 2000+ hours of holding down M1 on gens I'm kind of over it. Now I like to try to find fun creative ways to play with the killer and keep them distracted as long as I can. Not much really seems to work out though but it is fun in the rare occasion where I kept the killer busy long enough for everyone to escape. The close hook spawns often ruin that fun as well as the perks feeling like they don't do enough.
I get that. Gens are boring. I much prefer interacting with the killer. As a 4v1, though, one person isn't meant to hold the killer's attention all match. Once the killer wins a chase and gets a down, it really sucks for the survivor to escape without being hooked, that can translate into so much wasted time for the killer. If survivors work together to do it, then at least that's counterable and it means fewer survivors on gens.
Buffing wiggling in any way for solo survivors becomes dangerous. They may not be able to wiggle off every match, but when they can wiggle off then they'll probably be able to do it multiple times, and in that situation it'd be stronger than original DS because at least that could only be used once.
The wiggle perks as they are can be strong with teamwork. It'd be nice if survivors could see each other's perks before a match, that way they'd be like, "Oh, hey, that person's running a wiggle build!" so they'd know body blocking will be more successful than usual. This game does a terrible job at encouraging survivors to work together.
I wonder what could possibly be the problem with rewarding a survivor for messing up in chase and going down if it was even the slightest bit remotely reliable solo.
What's with the aggression? The only times I've had people run to a corner to prevent hooks is after the game is already over and they get caught working on a gen in a corner without a hook nearby, etc. This almost never happens during normal play to "tactically prevent a hook", not that it feels very fair to a killer when a survivor can escape grasp by themselves because you can't reach a hook. Remember buffed Boil Over and how many spots were impossible to hook from? It was awful.
The hooks being permanently gone after death really is an outdated mechanic. If you want to waste the killers time by going to a corner before going down, just bring a friend to sabo the hook and now you can't be hooked for a while. Just like it was mentioned before, it's unrealistic to expect to be able to wiggle free without the help of your teammates.
I get it. Build variety for survivor is low and being able to wiggle off with a little consistency would be fun. If you want to do that, bring Power Struggle + Flip Flop + Tenacity and get downed with someone else near the pallet. That's a pretty good way to escape the grasp. But being able to consistently deny hooks from killers would only make the killer role even more frustrating and would certainly not be beneficial to get new killer players to try the game.
When it comes to tpxicity like you mentioned, it would be nice for an option to bleed out instantly after say 60 seconds of being slugged. That would save a lot of time against toxic killers who slug to be annoying. In the same vein, killers should be able to give up after the gens are done somehow, if the game is already over so they don't have to force survs out or wait for 2 minutes for them to leave.
Was that joke? Hooks are already so close so you don't like want to even carry survivor? So yeah she is right that they should be bit more far away that survivors would have even small chance to wiggle off. Library has been fixed and there is hook now so that argument does not work also.
Imagine if gens started running away from you when you got them to 90%, and they were faster than you.
That's what it would be like for killers if you could reliably avoid getting hooked.
Hell with things like DH, BT, DS, that IS what playing killer feels like.