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Another month, another 3k players lost

Basement_Bubba420 Basement_Bubba420
in General Discussions

We are back to March 2020 numbers. A year before the RE update.

So not only did the RE players leave, but lots of others too.

Maybe if BHvR actually did something about the grind (which they created), tunneling meta (which they created), half of killers being awful (which they created), toxicity (which they created), MMR (which they created), meta being the same for five years (which they created), lack of variety (which they created), and hacking they could stop the bleed.

They issued an emergency MMR rework to stop the bleed, looks like it's done nothing.

Instead they just watch the slow decline.

Comments

  • fernandosilveirasc fernandosilveirasc

    I still enjoy this game a lot, as a survivor and as a klller. But one thing I think should be adressed is changing the meta. Got nerf hard those meta perks to create diversity. Remove the invincibility from dead hard, take away recovery buff from unbreakable, put charges on boons, make a more complex mechanic for DS, and so on. As long as there is no point in not using these perks over the others, you can buff away anything else and nothing will ever change.

  • DBD_Pinhead DBD_Pinhead

    @Carrow said:

    It's okay guys, the console numbers are surely going up! Surely!

    Not when every notification on killer side drops your frame rate to 0.666 FPS. Optimalization will hit once DBD 2 comes out lol.

  • NerfedFreddy NerfedFreddy

    Soloq survivors are leaving. Game is unbearable in soloq. Next patch is just killer only buffs as well

  • fulltonon fulltonon

    Wish it gets worse as otherwise nothing will change.

  • NekoGamerX NekoGamerX

    @fulltonon said:

    Wish it gets worse as otherwise nothing will change.

    it will

  • AndyKuky AndyKuky

    They need to drastically reduce the grind.

    And new killers need to be fun to play and competent, not doodoo tier like the last handful. Out of the last six killers released, maybe two are viable.

  • Agt_Scully Agt_Scully

    @Pulsar said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2920472#Comment_2920472

    DBD has less players now than it did in April of 2020.

    DBD had over 50 million players a few weeks ago: https://ftw.usatoday.com/2022/03/dead-by-daylight-50-million-players

    They had more players than that in April 2020? Wow - If you can lose numbers and still be one of the most popular games on the planet, you are doing something right.

  • EvilJoshy EvilJoshy

    @dugman said:

    Just FYI they also did a massive ban wave last week. Not sure how many people it impacted but if only a few percent of people playing were cheating and got banned that would be a few percent of the concurrent players on average drop right there.

    Anyone who was banned are probably back already on a new account.

  • dugman dugman

    @EvilJoshy said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2919094#Comment_2919094

    Anyone who was banned are probably back already on a new account.

    I'm sure that's true for a bunch of people but apparently some of the people who got banned lost their main account, they have to start from scratch.

  • Predated Predated

    @Basement_Bubba420 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2920500#Comment_2920500

    1. What? You didn't even address my point. Tunneling existed before, sure. Tunneling is even more incentivized by BHvR because of the lost time from all the second chance perks. At least before the second chance perks you could go for 12 hooks without worrying that the 30 seconds you spent in chase will be wasted because of a Dead Hard or CoH.
    2. How is it objectively wrong? Pig was worse at one point, she is still bad. Still awful. Legion was OP on release but quickly nerfed into awfulness. The rest of the killers have a general rating based on their performance across all maps. This performance has been the same for years.
    3. No. Tunneling against SWFs is even more effective because of altruism. Tunneling against SWFs is also effective because they lack the coordination to realize tunneling is occurring and work on gens effectively. Getting a kill before 3 gens are completed greatly swings things in favor of the killer.
    4. In terms of strategy the meta has always been the same.
      1. You can patrol the gens around the hook. Also, killing someone early has always been a huge power boost for the killer. Maybe back when BNPs were OP gen patrolling was preferred over camping/tunneling but camping immediately after the first hook isn't preferred anyway. It's when the survivor is somewhat close to reaching second stage when camping gets juicy. SoloQ will at least be near to try and get the save and SWF are even more inclined to save. SWFs may stand a chance because they're on comms and can focus gens but even then an early kill is a huge boon to the killer.
      2. This was when infinite loops and uber loops were common. These were terrible from a design standpoint and removed. They should have never existed. Since their removal, the optimal strategy is to not be greedy, drop the pallet to be safe, and go to the next tile.
      3. Genrush does exist. It's the objective of the game for survivors. It's literally how they win.
      4. Going away from the hook to attract survivors to unhook because of no DS/BT was suitable if you knew another survivor was close by. Other than that, again, proxy camp the hook. BNPs pretty much cost killers the game anyways.
      5. You're right. Hex: Ruin wasn't added until about 6 months after release. So regression hasn't been meta for the whole six years. Just 5.5 years.
    5. Healing is meta because of how easy it is do with CoH, Self Care, SWF prevalence, and info perks like Empathy. Healing is always beneficial but the ease of it is and the frequency that it occurs is what makes it meta.
    1. no, I didnt miss your point. Your point was that killers tunnel more because of the second chance perks, when before second chance perks, all killers did was tunnel. Right now, killers dont always tunnel unless they have to, and they are forced to endure punishing mechanics to force through it. Like, how is killers tunneling out 1 survivor maybe 70% of the matches "incentiviced" by second chance perks, when prior to second chance perks 3 survivors were tunneled out 100% of the time. So you're simply plain wrong. You might still feel like you need to tunnel because of them, but what are the odds that you would proxy camp and tunnel someone if you knew no one had a second chance perk. Remember when DS was changed and people ran it less often, and there was no obsession when there was no DS? With your logic, that means less reason to tunnel right? Well, the opposite ended up happening. People were tunneled harder in games with no obsession than in games with obsession to the point that obsession was made basekit to stop tunneling in games where there was no DS. You're just objectively wrong that second chance perks incentivize tunnelling, when the opposite has been proven to be true on multiple occasions.
    2. Very shortly after the EGC changes, and even then was she still better due to having a basekit slowdown mechanic. The only argument people have for Myers being not the worst killer is basically the existance of Tombstone Piece. But with that logic, Pig isnt the worst killer because of the Tape addon and her being able to camp one of the boxes. That doesnt make sense. Pig has one of the strongest killer potentials by bouncing off objects. And yeah, that might take a lot of skill and time to even learn where those spots are, but if you're going to put the best Pig up vs the best Ghostface, odds are likely that Pig will win. If you play her Ambush normally and rely on her traps, then she's not really amazing, but use her Ambush to bounce off pallets or even into jungle gyms and most of your games will end up in hatch games. Thats not something Myers can say, most of Myers games end with all 5 gens done. Legion absolutely needed a nerf, he wasnt just OP, he was broken, busted, no counterplay available. Even the most OP builds have counterplay, and that is often why they havent been nerfed yet, because they have counterplay. Otherwise Nurse her 3-blink addon would have been nerfed again to compensate for recharge addons(if recharge addons themselves arent going to be reworked, that is).
    3. Not really, only when SWF is having fun, but those are the kind of SWF where you often dont even feel the need to tunnel in the first place. Randoms are objectively worse when it comes to that, SWF who intent to win would never even give you the oppertunity to tunnel someone out, especially if they havent been hooked yet. Most of the games I play with my friends where we intent to win are games where we have 1 person always doing gens and at least 1 person always standing in the way of the killer when someone might be tunneled and we win in most cases as the last remaining person bounces inbetween doing totems and healing up the person who gets in the way. When we dont care about the win, it's often not altruism causing our defeat, it's simply that doing gens is boring. Technically it is altruism since we only do altruistic stuff, but the alternative would be holding m1 and sometimes pressing spacebar.
    4. Only on a very basic level has the meta always been do gens and get kills. But in that sense, League of Legends never changed meta, it has always been take down the enemy nexus. Overwatch never changed meta, it was always take over the objective and hold. Among Us never changed meta, it was always kill the crewmembers vs finishing tasks/voting impostors out. But going a bit deeper than the basic level, the DBD meta has changed a lot. I played from the beginning and quit when the meta became obnoxious, by the time I came back, I skipped over at least 3 meta's. Tunneling has always been a viable strat, camping has always been viable, doing gens as fast as possible is pretty much the only goal survivors have. But calling it the meta strat? Nah. Meta for survivors switched from hiding and secretly doing gens to running into the open on and off. Again, I could pull up an entire list of things that have changed. Just because multiple other strategy existed and were being used doesnt make certain things any less meta. I have gone months without seeing Nurse and Blight running both Ruin and Pop. They might have been running 1 of the 2, but never both. Nowadays, its hard to find a Nurse and Blight that dont run both. What is the difference? The meta. With all that explained, I am going to try and rush through the rest: a. not patrolling gens, you're prioritizing the hook over gens. Camping someone on second hook is a different strat than camping. The main camping complaint is killers camping from stage 1. b. nope, it was even switched up quite recently. Going from tile to tile was always possible, short loops were also quite possible. A lot of killers gained anti-loop abilities which are effectively reducing the strenght of single tile loops, because that was what players complained about a lot, forcing survivors into a more tile to tile loop, which was responded with a lot of killers gaining more mobility instead, forcing survivors back into single tile loops. You have mixes of both, ofcourse, but the main course of action has switched. There was even a time where single tile loops were impossible against doc, and times where single tile loops were the only real reason of preventing being hit by doc. And Doc was the first true anti-loop killer. c. nope, what the community has called a genrush, aka, 4 toolboxes(which now no longer exist btw), with bnp, wirespool, old prove thyself and old leader, only took 3 minutes for all survivors to get out even despite all the efforts of the killer. Nowadays, even with the most efficient way of doing gens is still at least 4 minutes for survivors to get out, and that is assuming the killer is focussing on 1 survivor only, never checks gens and would camp the survivor to death. If the same efforts are given, the game tends to last 7-8 minutes. Genrushing no longer exists. Even with the best team and the best tools, it takes much, much longer than 3 minutes. Nowadays, its just survivors doing their job. Would you call any killer that is camping a "killrusher"? Ofcourse not, that would be ridiculous. But there was a day where killrushing existed, back when Ebony Mori's werent yet nerfed. That no longer exists, so neither does killrushing. With that same logic, genrushing no longer exists. Camping has issues with the fun of games, not the balance of games. Same is true for tunneling. Which is why they are called out, because it is super boring, and in some cases coughcoughbubbacoughcough uncounterable. d. even when you didnt know, it was quite a good option. If there was a survivor nearby even without you knowing, they would give themselves away. And if they were SWF, you would know the other 2 wouldnt even be close enough to rescue, forcing 1 off a gen. As for BNP costing the killer the game? Only if you're oblivious. 2 Pop's fully negate 3 BNP's. 1 Pain Resonance fully negates an entire BNP. Ruin, on average, removes the worth of 8 BNP's per match. Saying BNP causes killers to lose is like saying Ruin is the instawin for a killer. Neither are true. e. Kicking gens was introduced earlier, which was also the first 3-gen meta for killers like Billy, as hiding from the killer was still survivor meta. Before, that wasnt even considered since survivors could be doing any gens and Billy could zoom around the map without preventing gens from progressing. My whole point is that new stuff and changes change the meta. Sometimes a bit slower than you think. Some meta's are shortlived, sure. In fact, there wasnt really a gen regression meta for a bit after the Undying nerf. It took almost an entire month for gen regression perks becoming more common again.
    5. it's not always as easy with self-care, but yeah, your last sentence pretty much supports my entire claim "the frequency and ease is what makes it meta". There was a very long anti-healing meta between a gen-regression meta and tunnel meta. I have seen gen regression builds in the anti-healing meta, and I have seen anti-healing builds in gen-regression meta, but that doesnt mean both were consistently meta. Right now, it's only a matter of days before killers remember that Sloppy Butcher is super powerful against CoH. Even before its nerf. I dont think CoH needed to be reduced to 50%, now its gonna be objectively worse than running self-care. Especially once killers realize that Sloppy Butcher practically negates any positive effect from CoH.


  • Tatt3dWon Tatt3dWon

    @KerJuice said:

    It’s SWF fault. No one likes them. Plus their feet stink. #RemoveSWF

    if you remove swf this game will have maybe 10 players on it people like to play with their friends no one plays solo que and enjoys it.

  • Predated Predated

    @OpenX said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2920512#Comment_2920512

    You can take a tape out from a TV next to a gen, do the entire gen, and then go drop the tape off and suffer essentially 0 consequence for doing it.

    Survivors with headphones are never going to be cut off by a Sadako teleporting in front of them. You can hear it a mile away, and attentive players will realize you have teleported.

    A genrush SWF is gonna slam out the gens in like 4-5 minutes. Some of them don't even loop, cause they don't have to. They send you to a very survivor sided map and just predrop everything. Tell me what Sadako does against those types of teams? Besides dodge the lobby?

    I mean, you can get a mask on from Piggy, do an entire gen and get it off and suffer 0 consequence from it.

    You can hear the teleporting, but the TV has to be really close and the gens practically untouched for you to be able to hear her.

    TP around a lot to pressure with Condemned stacks, use her visuals to confuse survivors(not just in loops, also faking pallet breaks etc) and if that all doesnt work to gain an average of 2 kills, you've simply been matched with an S-tier team when you shouldnt have been. Meaning you're either mismatched due to long queues(which has been changed), or you've been in a higher MMR than you should have been, in which case you should take it as a compliment.

    I mean, what do you expect from a team that has prepared to face another blight or nurse? They have come overly prepared, if you did not come overly prepared yourself, you're gonna lose. With the changes to MMR, I doubt you'd be facing a genrush SWF often, if at all.


    And yeah, Sadako needs some changes that are mainly QoL than objective buffs, like making Condemned survivors also exposed, or people working on gens next to a TV that is turned on also gain condemned stacks as if they were carrying a tape, or Sadako giving 2 stacks to people who are carrying a tape, rather than just 1. All those 3 combined would make a nice bounce back-and-forth during the entire match, one where turning off TV's is going to be a good idea, just as long as you dont turn off too many.

  • Basement_Bubba420 Basement_Bubba420

    @Predated said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2920531#Comment_2920531

    1. no, I didnt miss your point. Your point was that killers tunnel more because of the second chance perks, when before second chance perks, all killers did was tunnel. Right now, killers dont always tunnel unless they have to, and they are forced to endure punishing mechanics to force through it. Like, how is killers tunneling out 1 survivor maybe 70% of the matches "incentiviced" by second chance perks, when prior to second chance perks 3 survivors were tunneled out 100% of the time. So you're simply plain wrong. You might still feel like you need to tunnel because of them, but what are the odds that you would proxy camp and tunnel someone if you knew no one had a second chance perk. Remember when DS was changed and people ran it less often, and there was no obsession when there was no DS? With your logic, that means less reason to tunnel right? Well, the opposite ended up happening. People were tunneled harder in games with no obsession than in games with obsession to the point that obsession was made basekit to stop tunneling in games where there was no DS. You're just objectively wrong that second chance perks incentivize tunnelling, when the opposite has been proven to be true on multiple occasions.
    2. Very shortly after the EGC changes, and even then was she still better due to having a basekit slowdown mechanic. The only argument people have for Myers being not the worst killer is basically the existance of Tombstone Piece. But with that logic, Pig isnt the worst killer because of the Tape addon and her being able to camp one of the boxes. That doesnt make sense. Pig has one of the strongest killer potentials by bouncing off objects. And yeah, that might take a lot of skill and time to even learn where those spots are, but if you're going to put the best Pig up vs the best Ghostface, odds are likely that Pig will win. If you play her Ambush normally and rely on her traps, then she's not really amazing, but use her Ambush to bounce off pallets or even into jungle gyms and most of your games will end up in hatch games. Thats not something Myers can say, most of Myers games end with all 5 gens done. Legion absolutely needed a nerf, he wasnt just OP, he was broken, busted, no counterplay available. Even the most OP builds have counterplay, and that is often why they havent been nerfed yet, because they have counterplay. Otherwise Nurse her 3-blink addon would have been nerfed again to compensate for recharge addons(if recharge addons themselves arent going to be reworked, that is).
    3. Not really, only when SWF is having fun, but those are the kind of SWF where you often dont even feel the need to tunnel in the first place. Randoms are objectively worse when it comes to that, SWF who intent to win would never even give you the oppertunity to tunnel someone out, especially if they havent been hooked yet. Most of the games I play with my friends where we intent to win are games where we have 1 person always doing gens and at least 1 person always standing in the way of the killer when someone might be tunneled and we win in most cases as the last remaining person bounces inbetween doing totems and healing up the person who gets in the way. When we dont care about the win, it's often not altruism causing our defeat, it's simply that doing gens is boring. Technically it is altruism since we only do altruistic stuff, but the alternative would be holding m1 and sometimes pressing spacebar.
    4. Only on a very basic level has the meta always been do gens and get kills. But in that sense, League of Legends never changed meta, it has always been take down the enemy nexus. Overwatch never changed meta, it was always take over the objective and hold. Among Us never changed meta, it was always kill the crewmembers vs finishing tasks/voting impostors out. But going a bit deeper than the basic level, the DBD meta has changed a lot. I played from the beginning and quit when the meta became obnoxious, by the time I came back, I skipped over at least 3 meta's. Tunneling has always been a viable strat, camping has always been viable, doing gens as fast as possible is pretty much the only goal survivors have. But calling it the meta strat? Nah. Meta for survivors switched from hiding and secretly doing gens to running into the open on and off. Again, I could pull up an entire list of things that have changed. Just because multiple other strategy existed and were being used doesnt make certain things any less meta. I have gone months without seeing Nurse and Blight running both Ruin and Pop. They might have been running 1 of the 2, but never both. Nowadays, its hard to find a Nurse and Blight that dont run both. What is the difference? The meta. With all that explained, I am going to try and rush through the rest: a. not patrolling gens, you're prioritizing the hook over gens. Camping someone on second hook is a different strat than camping. The main camping complaint is killers camping from stage 1. b. nope, it was even switched up quite recently. Going from tile to tile was always possible, short loops were also quite possible. A lot of killers gained anti-loop abilities which are effectively reducing the strenght of single tile loops, because that was what players complained about a lot, forcing survivors into a more tile to tile loop, which was responded with a lot of killers gaining more mobility instead, forcing survivors back into single tile loops. You have mixes of both, ofcourse, but the main course of action has switched. There was even a time where single tile loops were impossible against doc, and times where single tile loops were the only real reason of preventing being hit by doc. And Doc was the first true anti-loop killer. c. nope, what the community has called a genrush, aka, 4 toolboxes(which now no longer exist btw), with bnp, wirespool, old prove thyself and old leader, only took 3 minutes for all survivors to get out even despite all the efforts of the killer. Nowadays, even with the most efficient way of doing gens is still at least 4 minutes for survivors to get out, and that is assuming the killer is focussing on 1 survivor only, never checks gens and would camp the survivor to death. If the same efforts are given, the game tends to last 7-8 minutes. Genrushing no longer exists. Even with the best team and the best tools, it takes much, much longer than 3 minutes. Nowadays, its just survivors doing their job. Would you call any killer that is camping a "killrusher"? Ofcourse not, that would be ridiculous. But there was a day where killrushing existed, back when Ebony Mori's werent yet nerfed. That no longer exists, so neither does killrushing. With that same logic, genrushing no longer exists. Camping has issues with the fun of games, not the balance of games. Same is true for tunneling. Which is why they are called out, because it is super boring, and in some cases coughcoughbubbacoughcough uncounterable. d. even when you didnt know, it was quite a good option. If there was a survivor nearby even without you knowing, they would give themselves away. And if they were SWF, you would know the other 2 wouldnt even be close enough to rescue, forcing 1 off a gen. As for BNP costing the killer the game? Only if you're oblivious. 2 Pop's fully negate 3 BNP's. 1 Pain Resonance fully negates an entire BNP. Ruin, on average, removes the worth of 8 BNP's per match. Saying BNP causes killers to lose is like saying Ruin is the instawin for a killer. Neither are true. e. Kicking gens was introduced earlier, which was also the first 3-gen meta for killers like Billy, as hiding from the killer was still survivor meta. Before, that wasnt even considered since survivors could be doing any gens and Billy could zoom around the map without preventing gens from progressing. My whole point is that new stuff and changes change the meta. Sometimes a bit slower than you think. Some meta's are shortlived, sure. In fact, there wasnt really a gen regression meta for a bit after the Undying nerf. It took almost an entire month for gen regression perks becoming more common again.
    5. it's not always as easy with self-care, but yeah, your last sentence pretty much supports my entire claim "the frequency and ease is what makes it meta". There was a very long anti-healing meta between a gen-regression meta and tunnel meta. I have seen gen regression builds in the anti-healing meta, and I have seen anti-healing builds in gen-regression meta, but that doesnt mean both were consistently meta. Right now, it's only a matter of days before killers remember that Sloppy Butcher is super powerful against CoH. Even before its nerf. I dont think CoH needed to be reduced to 50%, now its gonna be objectively worse than running self-care. Especially once killers realize that Sloppy Butcher practically negates any positive effect from CoH.
    1. Second chance perks incentivize tunneling because of the time wasted during a chase. Survivor Dead Hards during a chase to extend it by 30 seconds when they reach a pallet or safe tile? The killer needs a return on their investment in this chase. The investment has been increased, the return must increase. Tunnel this person out of the game to see your return. Same things with Unbreakable, FTP, DS, etc... Losing time, must get better return. Must tunnel. Also where did you get the 70/100% from?
    2. The same killers have been in bottom garbage tier for years. Your point is that some garbage tier killer is better than another garbage tier killer? I don't understand.
    3. So the majority of SWFs dont play the game to have fun? What is your point here? Mine is that SWFs tend to be more altruistic than solo. Thus, tunneling is more effective against them. If a SWF competes against an equal skill Killer, the SWF will win the vast majority of the time. The game isn't balanced around comms.
    4. Meta for survivors has never been just hiding. Someone needs to waste the killers time. In the era of infinite loops that was how time was wasted. The meta has been the same for years. Please tell me your version of the meta over the years. I know you mentioned this before, but that really seemed like a bunch of things that you separated (short looping meta vs long looping meta) to make it seem like there have been multiple metas. The only time the looping meta was different was in the age of infinite loops.
    5. When was this anti healing meta and what were the core perks/builds/strategies around it? I'm not familiar with what you're talking about.
  • Chusan Chusan

    lost more than 4k players now btw. considering steamcharts and console

  • TheVirgoG20 TheVirgoG20

    Exactly... these killers have no shame in just camping and tunneling the hooks. Me and my friends had nothing but that type of killer today. Then hitting on hook as if them standing by the hook was some great catch. A legion hooked one of us on the basement and just camped the one hook while downing others who came to rescue... how is that skill? And why isn't this behavior punished more harshly? The lamest excuses kept being made for what amounts to bad sportsmanship and lack of skill and it's ruining game play.

  • KillerMain4Ever KillerMain4Ever

    @dugman said:

    Just FYI they also did a massive ban wave last week. Not sure how many people it impacted but if only a few percent of people playing were cheating and got banned that would be a few percent of the concurrent players on average drop right there.

    Not enough, experienced a couple today

  • TheVirgoG20 TheVirgoG20

    https://clips.twitch.tv/LuckyHonestTroutRickroll-b77BjhuIu0qw7upb

  • Chusan Chusan
    https://youtu.be/fjJ0voPH2k0

    Further proof that this game is hard for new players to get into.

  • Agt_Scully Agt_Scully

    @Tatt3dWon said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2919122#Comment_2919122

    if you remove swf this game will have maybe 10 players on it people like to play with their friends no one plays solo que and enjoys it.

    Really? I've only ever played solo que - I thought SWF was for custom, private servers only.

  • KerJuice KerJuice

    @Tatt3dWon said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2919122#Comment_2919122

    if you remove swf this game will have maybe 10 players on it people like to play with their friends no one plays solo que and enjoys it.

    Those 10 people will be so happy though!

  • Predated Predated

    @Basement_Bubba420 said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2926269#Comment_2926269

    1. Second chance perks incentivize tunneling because of the time wasted during a chase. Survivor Dead Hards during a chase to extend it by 30 seconds when they reach a pallet or safe tile? The killer needs a return on their investment in this chase. The investment has been increased, the return must increase. Tunnel this person out of the game to see your return. Same things with Unbreakable, FTP, DS, etc... Losing time, must get better return. Must tunnel. Also where did you get the 70/100% from?
    2. The same killers have been in bottom garbage tier for years. Your point is that some garbage tier killer is better than another garbage tier killer? I don't understand.
    3. So the majority of SWFs dont play the game to have fun? What is your point here? Mine is that SWFs tend to be more altruistic than solo. Thus, tunneling is more effective against them. If a SWF competes against an equal skill Killer, the SWF will win the vast majority of the time. The game isn't balanced around comms.
    4. Meta for survivors has never been just hiding. Someone needs to waste the killers time. In the era of infinite loops that was how time was wasted. The meta has been the same for years. Please tell me your version of the meta over the years. I know you mentioned this before, but that really seemed like a bunch of things that you separated (short looping meta vs long looping meta) to make it seem like there have been multiple metas. The only time the looping meta was different was in the age of infinite loops.
    5. When was this anti healing meta and what were the core perks/builds/strategies around it? I'm not familiar with what you're talking about.
    1. again, no second chance perks=tunneling and killing someone asap. There is LESS tunneling with second chance perks. That is a fact. Hence it doesnt incentivize tunneling. As for returns: DH often also means a strong pallet is being dropped, thats an exhaustion perk AND a resource being used, that's a huge return. If someone is capable of using Unbreakable, that is you making a mistake. FTP? The amount of healthstates remains the same AND someone is broken now for the next minute, not really a second chance perk. DS? Only works if you tunnel in the first place. The only perk that is an issue here is DH. As for the 70% and 100%? I have played in both era's. Before BT, DS and Unbreakable, 100% of the killers tunneled and/or camped from the moment they got their first hook. Nowadays, at best 70% of the killers encountered camp or tunnel early on, and even then, tunneling mostly happens later in the game. If I am going to compare to tunneling/camping from first hook, only 10% of games have that, most of them being Bubba.
    2. Not really. Besides, you came with killers being worse than others. Myers was A tier at one point in time, especially in the testing server. The biggest reason why Myers ended up being the worst killer is more due to new content either negating or negatively affecting his powers(which is why Myers mains want a slight rework).
    3. Not really, I simply pointed out that SWF's losing due to altruism from your POV is often SWF's not in the mood to sit infront of generators for 3 minutes. It's them actively interacting with the killer more than gens. It appears to be altruistic from your POV, but that doesnt mean they actually were altruistic. You can definitely bait SWF through altruism, as you can be certain that someone would be willing to trade a hook rather than letting their teammate hit second stage, and use that fact to get both the hooktrade AND second stage, but that's not common place for what people tend to call altruistic. What most killers call altruistic is survivors tanking hits, healing up a lot and then coming back with no one doing gens, when most likely, its survivors who have had very boring games and just want some fun instead.
    4. Yes, it has been. Twice at least. I've had games where I simply couldnt find any survivor. I found the gens they were working on, I checked all the lockers and corners at some point because it got incredibly frustrating to only have had 2 chases all game to the point where running Nurses Calling became the norm again just so survivors couldnt hide. Hiding is wasting the time of the killer. If the killer cannot find any survivor, he wasted a lot of time searching and survivors elsewhere are working on gens. And no, even OhTofu has mentioned before that back in the day, it was much more beneficial for survivors to stick around a loop instead of going from tile to tile, where the meta has now turned to a tile to tile meta due to the amount of killers that have (too many) powers to prevent survivors sticking around a single tile. The age of infinite loops was even prior to that.
    5. Sloppy Butcher being ran on most killers, except for Billy and Plague, Nurses Calling, BBQ and the fourth perk was either Thanatophobia(back when it also affected healing), Pop, Ruin, Corrupt, M&A(smaller TR, wider vision, making it easier to find and sneak up on healers), Stridor(to counter IW) or NOED. Kinda depended on the killer and the addons which of those perks were used. There was the information meta too, where there was BBQ, Nurses Calling, Bitter Murmur and Discordance on a lot of killers. They were also the era where Doctor was quite prevalent and Clown and Bubba barely existed(aka, killer variety was super low). Yeah, there were still gen regression builds, but most of them didnt really apply unless you knew it was a 4-man SWF because they brought toolboxes. But the anti-healing was mainly done so that people wouldnt heal up at all, turning basically any killer into an instadown killer. Adrenaline was also super common to heal up and save time after the final gen. The information meta arose due to the hiding meta.

    Some of these only lasted like 4 months due to the opponents picking counterplay to that meta, others lasted for years. The anti-healing meta was kinda demolished when Thana was changed due to Legion already being hard to heal against and his mangled addon in combination with thana made it basically so in certain maps, all you needed to do was stab everyone once and they would remain injured for the rest of the game.

  • Tatt3dWon Tatt3dWon

    @KerJuice said:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2926284#Comment_2926284

    Those 10 people will be so happy though!

    might as well go make a private server then.

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