Question to the VETERAN/EXPERT players: what do you think of the CURRENT balancement state of Dbd?

Leonardo1ita

This post has the purpose of collecting the opinions of veteran/expert Dbd players that have been playing Dbd for a lot of time, and that preferably have been playing both sides of the game (survivor and killer) constantly up to now (or 3 months of absence max), about the current balancement state of dbd. So, if you've been playing dbd just for a bit/are a new player, or are still learning but don't feel confident enough, please tell us how confident you feel playing both sides and your number of hours so we can see and confrontate the different opinions comparing the hours and the knowledge of each other. ALso everybody, if you can please share how many hours you have in total or how many hours experience you gained watching content creators would be much appreciated :D

So, I've been wanting to create a thread like this for a very long time, but I wanted to wait until the new DLC came out, so we have a lot of time to confrontate the different opinions and discuss interesting things until the mid chapter patch comes out. I hope this thread will achieve a lot of opinions during the course of a month, and will stay alive for a very long time!

So, talking about the balancement of Dbd is a VERY COMPLEX MATTER, no doubt, and we gotta set a definition of what we're talking about and DON'T TAKE AND EDGE CASE ONLY. Yes, they're important, but they're not THE ENTIRE GAME.

If you have any doubt about anything here's the Dbd wiki:

We are currently maintaining 1,526 Articles (15,524 Pages), that are kept up-to-date by Community Volunteers!This Wiki is officially recognised by the Developers at Behaviour Interactive.

7 are the big categories that determine the balancement of the game:

1. Killers with their respective powers, and there are 27 killers in total right now. Survivors apart from changes to the loudness of the grunts of pain(with Ace and others being harder to hear, and instead Jane and Jeff and other being very loud, and others like Jake and Laurie being a mix because they have inconsistent breathing and are very good against Spirit) and stealth visibility cosmetics (and female survivors being smaller usually), can all be considered skins, so don't matter.
2. Perks
3. Maps(realms)
4. Items
5. Add-ons (both sides)
6. Offerings
7. RNG/luck. With this it's included things as a corner of the map being full of pallets or a complete dead zone, thing that can completely turn the game around, especially against some killers like Bubba or Billy; the luck mechanic, survivor spawns, totem visibility and spawns, hook spawns, etc.

I think that, after 4 years, everybody can retain the @marth88gaming Depip squad experiments OUTDATED, because TOO MANY THINGS PASSED SINCE MARCH 2018. Almost all maps got reworked, a lot of killers got buffed and reworked; BNPS, Instaheals, Toolboxes, Mories, and many other GAME CHANGING things have been completely reworked, and other game changing perks like Corrupt Intervention, Pain Resonance, Ruin, Undying, Dead Man's Switch, Deadlock have been introduced/reworked, and many maps with infinites/god windows EXPLOITS (as the devs themselves called it. I'm not joking, they declared them exploits when they started reworking all the maps in 2019/2020) have been reworked. Decisive strike was a completely different game changing perk back than (even now, and thank god it and borrowed time exist otherwise why not just tunneling 1 survivor always to win much more often), so that's why you have to be up to date.

To consider the balancement of the game, we gotta aknowledge that the win condition is actually, as SBMM/MMR declared it, killing and escaping, and consider the survivors as a team. So if 4/3 survivors escaped the survivors won, if 2 escaped it's a tie, if just 1 escaped or nobody survived the killer won.

Now, and this is why I need veteran/expert players, and if possible even competitive players if there is any, we need to consider the survivors being, other than as efficient as possible, in full voice communication, able to callout positions on the map with a clock system as competitive players do. Like when playing chess, a rule that is kinda implicit is that YOU GOTTA TAKE FOR GRANTED THE OPPONENT WILL ALWAYS DO THE MOST EFFECTIVE THING, so don't hope that survivors will be in a lack of communication because that's not a reliable way to balance the game around.

With this in mind,

I'd like you to talk and consider as much as possible about the balancement of the game considering as many cases as possible, and both sides always balanced. If for example you wanna consider the Nurse with no perks or add-ons, you gotta also consider the survivors with no perks and no add-ons and items. Or if you wanna consider a Nurse with 3 blinks and recharge + Starstruck you also gotta consider the survivors with the best perks, offerings and add-ons combinations. If you're playing the worst killer but with the best possible build, you still gotta consider the survivors with the best stuff combined. Etc, I hope you understood the concept. Still, include the edge cases, because not all edge cases have a counter, or have the proper organisation available every match.

So, try to consider the average if you wanna put all killers together for example, and discuss as much as possible about individual killers/perks/etc in a profound way, SO PLEASE NO THINGS LIKE "KILLERS ARE OP", OR "SURVIVORS ARE OP", because we all know that there are scenarios where these statements are definitely not true.

To conclude and sum it up, consider killers and survivors playing as efficient as they can in all cases, so no archives or side objectives, and completely exclude the fun factor, so if a killer like Pyramid head is super good at tunneling 1 survivor out of the game due to its power you gotta consider it.

please share your opinions if you're a veteran/expert, let's have a good discussion!

Leonardo1ita

@BenZ0 said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2850447#Comment_2850447

I was never a coin flip since still the vast majority of survivors are running iron will. Also sounds are often not reliable since they can be inconistent aswell, thats atleast my experience before I quit playing her, I could be also very unlucky.

That's a problem of the killer in general imo, just how 1 single perk makes you completely silent, problem that should be addressed in some way imo. Problem that amplifies if people on PC, that consoles cannot do, change the audio quality from the game user settings file from 0 to 2, use equalizers (much harder to get on console), and have 1000 $/€ headphones because sounds mixed with the chase music make it so hard to track everything. Inconsistent design overall still.

BenZ0

@Leonardo1ita said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2850452#Comment_2850452

That's a problem of the killer in general imo, just how 1 single perk makes you completely silent, problem that should be addressed in some way imo. Problem that amplifies if people on PC, that consoles cannot do, change the audio quality from the game user settings file from 0 to 2, use equalizers (much harder to get on console), and have 1000 $/€ headphones because sounds mixed with the chase music make it so hard to track everything. Inconsistent design overall still.

Ye I agree, I think Iron will shouldnt be a thing in the first place. Perks like Parental guidance where you kinda "earn" the stealth are fine, but not iron will that gives you constant that silence.

Leonardo1ita

@BenZ0 said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2850461#Comment_2850461

Ye I agree, I think Iron will shouldnt be a thing in the first place. Perks like Parental guidance where you kinda "earn" the stealth are fine, but not iron will that gives you constant that silence.

Parental guidance is my new anti Blight/Nurse perk, if they eat DS I just disappear forever XD, especially in indoor maps.

Leonardo1ita

@AlbinoViera said:

Been playing since the game was first released on Console and have since moved to PC. Did also play it when it first released on PC, but that was with a friend's account, so not sure. Currently sitting on 1.2k hours with console, and 750 on PC. So about 1900 hours total. Not a lot, but I think I've been around long enough to give my own opinion on the game.

With that in mind, I'll go through each of the categories you laid out so this will be less about balance and more of my own thoughts on each subject with my general thoughts of the balance being at the end. If it ends up being a mess with conflicting opinions, I apologise.

1. Let's start off with the first category. Killers and Survivors. I think the cast we have currently is more than for a while. They have noticeable difference between powers and designs, with varying difficulty in learning them. However, a majority have something wrong with them. They don't change the basic structure of the match and how you as a survivor play it. Each one's counterplay typically ends up being *Run to a loop, get hit/put a pallet down, run to a loop, get hit/put a pallet down, repeat until downed or you escape the chase.* The only killers that change it up are Nurse, Spirit... And I'm struggling to think of a third.. Either way, if out of 27 killers, only two or three change up the way a chase plays out (which is the main bulk and enjoyment of the game) then I can't say that's good design. That goes for survivors as well though. It's confusing that they release more and more when they're literally reskins who are just bought for perks.
2. Speaking of perks.. I really need BHVR to stop. We have damn near two hundred of the things in total, and that's ignoring the pointless tier system. What makes it worse is that even after 3-4 years, the meta for survivor has hardly changed and even the killer meta hasn't changed in all actuality. With survivor, out of 104 perks you'll see.. Maybe 6. With the occasional 7th. Typically it's take a pick from DH, BT, DS, UB, IW, and the latest edition of CoH. Each of these countering and entire strategy and/or power of a killer. As killer, you can take your pick of Gen Defence perks. Just make sure it's not a hex, those are gone within a minute of being found out.
3. I sincerely hope they fire the map designer for the last few map changes. I kid of course.. Kind of. The reworks to the Cornfields and the Game were done extremely poorly and have become some of the worst maps to play on for both sides in my opinion. Corn is just corn with all the loops of the outside, with every single one being able to chain into another with no difficulty. The game is just, run, drop pallet, run, drop pallet. By the time the thirtieth one is broken every gen should have been done. Exaggeration, but you get the point. Then there's the absolute mess that is the RPD. A map in this game shouldn't be that large, and definitely shouldn't have a loops with no counter-play whatsoever. Which sums up my opinion with a lot of the maps, too big with loops that have zero counter-play.
4. I'm going to separate addons for killer and survivor, and combine the latter here with items since you will NEVER see an addon-less item being brought in. And I have to say, some of them are ridiculous at times. Being able to complete two or three generators before the killer can get a hit isn't something that should be allowed. Being able to heal mid chase, being able to sabotage hooks and the occasional blind that for some reason damages a killer's hearing too. I don't think any of these things are good for the game, but they're not the most problematic thing in my opinion. Although I say toolboxes are still quite a bit too powerful.
5. Addons for killers are mixed.. I think that a majority of them should be reworked and removed. Leave a small amount that change how the killer plays in a bigger way. Such as how one can make it so Plague can't infect with vomit, only with interactions, but increases how quickly they infect. There's one with Nurse that gives her normal speed, but only one blink. They should change how the killer is played, rather than just "You do this thing a bit better and this thing a bit worse."
6. Offerings.. You see Bloodpoint boosts or Moris. That's it. It's a system that needs some love. Make it change the game in a drastic way. For example, an offering that makes every action 10% slower, but the player can run 2% quicker. One that makes totems blocked for 30 seconds, but gens are 5% quicker. Something that makes the game different, which is what an offering should be.
7. RNG.. I couldn't say more negative things about RNG being in a game like this. One side will always be screwed over by it. It needs to go in my opinion.

Now, as for my balance thoughts on the game right now. Personally, I think DBD isn't the most balanced it has ever been. I'd say that was around the time before The Twins was released. But, it is more balanced now than it was a few years ago. The issue is, is it's way too repetitive. Killers are all the same except for the two or three exceptions when you go down to the basics, survivors are all reskins that run the same perks so there's no variety there, and maps all have the same loops. Ironically I'd have said Haddonfield had the most variety of loops in the game, sure they weren't balanced at all, but they were at least varied.

When it comes down to it though, the game hasn't changed much if at all, even after 5 years when it comes to balance. A good team on comms will always beat a killer, and a solo team will typically always struggle against the same killer.

Fair enough opinion, but a team in communication doesn't always beat a killer, I've completely destroyed and made rage quit some teams that the match before bullied me when I was Wraith just because they weren't prepared for Hag.

Leonardo1ita

@Irisora said:

Bought DBD in 2016 so i'm one of the old players that saw all changes..

Here is a proof:

https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JAACLHJU3K3K/captura-de-pantalla-2022-03-14-210901.png

So my opinion is that I think DBD is regressing instead of evolving. With the implementation of DH last changes and boons specially CoH its like they are trying to bring back the old DBD where true infinites existed but replaced with this, wich gives the same result: unfun and broken. Many M1 killers are outdated or died after this and that its a huge issue.

I also think that they are prioritizing a lot more the quantity of the content instead of quality, and that has been affecting the game very negatively with bugs, unbalanced perks and more, to the point that they either ignore the issues or put a "Soon tm" next to it.

SBMM is one of the worst things that could happen to dbd:

1. Because its ######### soloQ a lot.
2. Because it doesn't measure real skill (kills and escapes it a really vague condition and its not a reflection of a player skill at all)

And to finalize i think the devs should stop releasing DLC for at least 5 months and take time to polish the game, think about new ideas maybe new game modes because lets face it, dbd become boring after a few hours of the same specially as survivor and even more lately with the lack of killer variety because of the pitiful game balance that force people to play always the same killers.

I disagree on a lot of things, I hardly disagree that Dbd is regressing, maybe it's doing some steps back with Circle of Healing, and who said the devs are trying to go back to some broken stuff of old Dbd? They're just experimenting different stuff, worst case scenario they thought Circle of Healing was fine both for casuals and premade groups, which it isn't.

There are no m1 killers anymore, all have a chase power and the ones that almost don't have it are Trapper, Wraith, Legion, Ghostface and Pig. With Sadako you can do some mindgames with the invisibility that are nutty.

Sadly the devs have to keep up with content for many reasons, and they said many times they won't do a health chapter because they can do both balancement and content at the same time and as Almo said more devs in one area doesn't necessarily mean faster updates.

Bugs are not even close to being very very bad, I haven't have a bug in a game for a very long time playing both survivor and killer, and those times there's a bug it's just on one killer such as the new Nurse omegablinks bug. The balancement of core game mechanics is the problem overall.

SBMM is not a problem, it's better than nothing and people are just putting their frustration on it. Go watch the video OhTofu made on it, it's quite detailed. SBMM just underlined the problem of tunneling and camping and facecamping, that's it.

fulltonon

@Leonardo1ita said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2850227#Comment_2850227

Fair enough opinion, but a team in communication doesn't always beat a killer, I've completely destroyed and made rage quit some teams that the match before bullied me when I was Wraith just because they weren't prepared for Hag.

That's just incompetent team, isn't it? you literally said they weren't good against hag.

What's important is more usual gameplay with average killers or tourney with same skill level, no killers other than nurse/blight does good without perk restrictions and such, and on average gameplay survivors on comms have like dozen perk worth of advantage which can easily make the game almost unwinnable.

Leonardo1ita

@fulltonon said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2850477#Comment_2850477

That's just incompetent team, isn't it? you literally said they weren't good against hag.

What's important is more usual gameplay with average killers or tourney with same skill level, no killers other than nurse/blight does good without perk restrictions and such, and on average gameplay survivors on comms have like dozen perk worth of advantage which can easily make the game almost unwinnable.

At their best yes, they do. Especially if they all bring overcome they can win a match just holding W.

drsoontm

@Leonardo1ita said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2849288#Comment_2849288

That they do the opposite of what the community wants it's false, otherwise many things wouldn't have been changed.

The question is always if they don't have the time, for some reason, to rework killers and trash add-ons, faster than a turtle or they wanna keep the game balanced for only when you face casual players that have ± 1 weak link and aren't efficient.

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2849294#Comment_2849294

You don't blink shorter, you blink the same exact distance.

We must not fall into the whataboutism: if the game ever got balanced, an add-on that buffs your power so massively shouldn't exist, because otherwise why shouldn't everybody just use it and nothing else?

Talking about good efficient players, have you ever watched Xeno( the comp player)? You can just a Nurse, and quite a lot sometimes, because they know how the Nurse works and know a lot of mindgames being Nurse main themselves. This when doing 1 vs 1s against other very good comp players he can resist even 1/2 minutes against that, if had a 3rd blink, you would just not juke them ever.

Also the 3rd blink is even better than recharge in some situations, because if you don't use the third you can have 2 blinks available almost immediately.

You don't get it, do you?

What a waste of time this thread turned out to be.

nostrada96ass

level of being veteran or physical limit to call someone veteran this game low, so i don’t think expert of this game means much

but company doing good, new contents and somewhat changing mean a lots

they creating new contents unlike other dead games, only problem they not targeting certain point in adjusting

like weekend players, wraith nerf and hit detection change of dh and pallet seems they buffed majority of user pick

which is survivor, so now even more swarming of survivors, same builds, and same killer picks because most wm1 is trash

pallets and windows feels too safe now, everyone can greedy to mork most killer if they playing on pc

but surprisingly there no killer whiners here, either they quitted killer long ago like me

even all killing most rounds with nurse not worthy to tire my eyes that much

and no worthy to dealing with hostile swf, they throw ######### opponent no matter what,(i never see chat as survivor now)

personally i think solo queue playing is fine, dead by daylight only balanced when survivors including 2human/2apes

this not apply when killer is nurse or blight, 1ape can lead all kill in this case

but most wm1s? even if killer player better both killer and survivor than individual 4survivors

theres no way to all kill if survivors not make lots of mistakes, and one miss as wm1 can lead to 0~1kill + exit teabags of someone

but least they didn't changed windows, from this i think they knowing deadline of balance

Irisora

@Leonardo1ita said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2850313#Comment_2850313

I disagree on a lot of things, I hardly disagree that Dbd is regressing, maybe it's doing some steps back with Circle of Healing, and who said the devs are trying to go back to some broken stuff of old Dbd? They're just experimenting different stuff, worst case scenario they thought Circle of Healing was fine both for casuals and premade groups, which it isn't.

There are no m1 killers anymore, all have a chase power and the ones that almost don't have it are Trapper, Wraith, Legion, Ghostface and Pig. With Sadako you can do some mindgames with the invisibility that are nutty.

Sadly the devs have to keep up with content for many reasons, and they said many times they won't do a health chapter because they can do both balancement and content at the same time and as Almo said more devs in one area doesn't necessarily mean faster updates.

Bugs are not even close to being very very bad, I haven't have a bug in a game for a very long time playing both survivor and killer, and those times there's a bug it's just on one killer such as the new Nurse omegablinks bug. The balancement of core game mechanics is the problem overall.

SBMM is not a problem, it's better than nothing and people are just putting their frustration on it. Go watch the video OhTofu made on it, it's quite detailed. SBMM just underlined the problem of tunneling and camping and facecamping, that's it.

We have very diferrent opinion then because i disagree with the most you say.. for example:

Do you really think DBD its not regressing when they are bringing back broken and unbalanced mechanic? This question answer itself DH unfairly extend chases for to long like old jungle gyms and CoH inmediatly kills some tactics and even killer power like Legion...

You think the new SBMM its ok and better than the old one? Its not, and I encourage you to draw your own conclusion instead or following your favorite streamer/youtuber on duty.. the old one was more accuarate im talking about the emblem system, that one was almost perfect yet for some stupid reason the devs decided to scrap it.

And SBMM has asbolutely nothing to do with tunneling and camping you have no idea of what you are talking, because this game despite it have some competitve wanna be feels, its not and no body gives a ######### about ranking up and more than ever when the SBMM is invisible.

Tunneling and camping was greatly increased in the last month because of the unfair mechanics the devs brought, DH and DH validation, and boons and the not so popular yet fair pallet validation. All this things mixed together extend chases for so long that force most killer to tunnel and camp. Nothing more nothing else, this is the true reason.

You also say there are not M1 kilers anymore yet you name 5 that exist and thats not a little portion at all..

I have to disagree with you also with the thing "the devs have to keep up with the content", let me answer you that.. they dont, they do it because of the money don't be so naive, they are a great company they are not a random indie studio anymore. They can afford to take some time to polish the game with and without releasing new content, yet they decide to focus on new content more than anything "quantity over quality" its their motto, and anyone can see that from miles away.

xBEATDOWNSx

Game is balanced well all things considered. Is it HEALTHY? No. Not really. But the game is still much more balanced than it ever has been.

Some perks need to be changed on both sides and some killers should be completely nuked and reworked (looking at you Myers and Legion)

Also the community is so damn toxic. This Us vs Them thought process is so damn tiring.

Leonardo1ita

@drsoontm said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2850365#Comment_2850365

You don't get it, do you?

What a waste of time this thread turned out to be.

You're just falling into the biased whataboutism: just because the other side, so the survivors, have insanely broken stuff, it doesn't mean it's justified to have unfunny to play against add-ons and perks.

Leonardo1ita

@Irisora said:

https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2850490#Comment_2850490

We have very diferrent opinion then because i disagree with the most you say.. for example:

Do you really think DBD its not regressing when they are bringing back broken and unbalanced mechanic? This question answer itself DH unfairly extend chases for to long like old jungle gyms and CoH inmediatly kills some tactics and even killer power like Legion...

You think the new SBMM its ok and better than the old one? Its not, and I encourage you to draw your own conclusion instead or following your favorite streamer/youtuber on duty.. the old one was more accuarate im talking about the emblem system, that one was almost perfect yet for some stupid reason the devs decided to scrap it.

And SBMM has asbolutely nothing to do with tunneling and camping you have no idea of what you are talking, because this game despite it have some competitve wanna be feels, its not and no body gives a ######### about ranking up and more than ever when the SBMM is invisible.

Tunneling and camping was greatly increased in the last month because of the unfair mechanics the devs brought, DH and DH validation, and boons and the not so popular yet fair pallet validation. All this things mixed together extend chases for so long that force most killer to tunnel and camp. Nothing more nothing else, this is the true reason.

You also say there are not M1 kilers anymore yet you name 5 that exist and thats not a little portion at all..

I have to disagree with you also with the thing "the devs have to keep up with the content", let me answer you that.. they dont, they do it because of the money don't be so naive, they are a great company they are not a random indie studio anymore. They can afford to take some time to polish the game with and without releasing new content, yet they decide to focus on new content more than anything "quantity over quality" its their motto, and anyone can see that from miles away.

DH is broken, I know and I think everyone can agree, it's been broken since 2017 when David came out. CIrcle of healing is not a problem on legion, because if they're all together near the boon you can injure almost everybody, and if they're spread out they gotta waste a ton of time to run to the boon.

I say SBMM is better than nothing despite EVERYBODY says the opposite: Dowsey, Scott Jund, Tru3ta1ent, MrGimms, and many others. The problem with the emblem system is that you gotta give a number to the emblems to translate them into an SBMM system, which creates a big problem, and was far from being perfect.

SBMM matters, because those killers who snowball and kill more go up with the ranking, because that's the WIN CONDITION, and those are the ones who tunnel and camp/facecamp with Nurse/Blight/Bubba because it's the strongest thing you can do with them. And the teams that are more coordinated and wanna have always a 4 man out are the ones who go up.

Pallet validaton has been improved for killers with the recent update even if nothing has been said in the patch notes, the validation is much better. I know, killers have to tunnel and camp because that's what makes them win more, which goes along perfectly with what the SBMM system does, so it exposed bad game mechanics.

Which other m1 killers? all the other ones have an anti loop power, but not all of them are as good to counter the shift W playstyle or maps like The Game, that's the problem.

Do you remember the McLean patch? That was quality over quantity, no doubt. Also as the devs, M. Cote himself on camping, and Almo rumoured, big changes are coming.

Btw we don't know if the departure from Starbreeze that started in 2018 is over or not, so they might be forced to push out content just for that. Just with the Q and A they demonstrated that they wanna be more open towards the community, so things are looking bright in my opinion!

Leonardo1ita

@xBEATDOWNSx said:

Game is balanced well all things considered. Is it HEALTHY? No. Not really. But the game is still much more balanced than it ever has been.

Some perks need to be changed on both sides and some killers should be completely nuked and reworked (looking at you Myers and Legion)

Also the community is so damn toxic. This Is vs Them thought process is so damn tiring.

Exactly, there are a lot of biases towards one side or the other, and one of the few ones who is not biased and is always very constructive and positive, other than a very sweet person, is @Otzdarva in my opinion.