The new SBMM, the one to rule them all with skill being an important factor. (Killer version)
I'm sure we all know, kills does not equal skill and nor does Escaping. While you do have to do something to get a kill or escape its obviously not 100% reflection on singular skill. The current system is a KBMM or EBMM.
The solution? Simple, base the ranking off actual skill or what we would deem a skillful play/behaviour.
Killers: we would use a point based system, not over complex but it would provide a better and consistent tracking ability of "balance".
1 hook = 1 point
If a survivor reaches next stage = 0.5points
This system is to encourage a more enjoyable experience for everyone while allowing us to balance around a more precise mark. We feel if a killer is able to outplay survivors to get hit, downs and secure a hook multiple times in a trial they're likely more skillful than someone who cant.
We would probably aim for 8points to be a win, 7 draw and anything less a loss. while its possible to achieve up to 12 points in a single trial we feel 8 is a good spot for multiple reason. Gaining 8 points will increase MMR, anything more than 8 would increase your mmr slightly more.
A common issue we noticed was face camping to get a 2k, this wasnt very skill and produced an unfun situation. However with the new system a kill that gets 2 hooks but kills 2 survivors would only achieve 4points, and therefore lose.
The reason for the 0.5 point for a survivor reaching next phase is to discourage camping and rewarding those able to get lots of separate hooks. We understand that it's sometimes the smartest discussion and the best play to force a player to the next stage and so we still wanted to award a small point bonus to it but not enough to be abusable.
Some killers rely on the ability of "snowballing", so we also wanted to make sure if you get a 4k due to this or just out playing the survivor team is still rewarded. Even if you slug every survivor and 1hook them all (a playstyle we dont encourage but dont want to punish as it requires skill) will still award 8points in total and therefore gaining mmr.
This was a long post, a survivor version will be posted at another date if people are interested. NOTE: this isnt actually real, just abit of fun
Comments
What is the point of this change ? There is no ladder and MMR is hidden.
Like it or not but if you cannot get any kill on the long term and only hooks, it means you are not really trying to win (yes, tunneling is a valid strategy). Why should you be rewarded with a higher MMR ?
Also, if you have this playstyle, why do you bother about raising your MMR ? I mean, I am a killer main (nurse), and trust me, the game is way more fun at low MMR when survivors / killers use fun perks instead of meta slave BT / DS / DH / UB / or COH. Nothing is preventing you to keep this playstyle as a killer.
Now, let’s say you are a survivor main. Why do you bother about killers playing for kills instead of hooks ? Because you don’t like dying and not escaping ? Well, guess what, MMR is balanced around 2 kills / 2 escapes (which is not fair for a horror game, imho it should be only 1 escape with a "final girl" like in movies) so in the end, even if the killer get more hooks, he is supposed to have a average of 2 kills.
You probably wont get it but it's about balance and actually having SBMM based of you know skill, hence the S.
This system would also reward skillful players over non skillful ones. If you really think a face camping bubba is skillful and shows good balance then yeah that's and issue.
A system like this would allow better balancing and a better understanding on how killers can perform. Seeings a 2k average doesnt mean on average killers are getting any X hooks. This system adds that depth for better overall balancing
And if you understood this system I made it doesnt actually punish players who use tactics like tunneling or forcing the next stage of a hook.
ALL this system actually does is punish the full on facecamp noed (0skill style) and rewards players that are skillful. If you're against this system I'm guessing you cant get many hooks, theres no other reason to actually dislike it.
I haven't even done the survivor system yet and no I dont think escapes matter, that's the current flawed system. The system I made up (not posted) actually rewards skill.
I still don't get the reward part with everything around the issue, your system or the one we have in place right now.
People cry out for the unfair part of a killer raising their MMR with scummy tactics, one camped hook plus one NOED kill or whatever, but whats the fuzz about?
There is no reward for raising your MMR, your only reward will be better players, survivors who are so stealthy or so godly at looping that you are begging for scraps, till your MMR score hopefully falls again into a more managable region. Sweat is the only reward of high MMR, and this is the biggest issue: skillfull or scummy, being successful as a killer will only lead to frustration.
The last 10 games as Pyramid Head, my best killer, were absolutely aweful and 0 fun, literally. It was just frustration and I am seriously considering watching a movie while smurfing my account, because for me there is little to no value in playing the game right now. And it aint the number of kills or hooks or whatever, its the quality of the matches. I am matched with obviously very good survivors, and the matches are nothing that I can enjoy, no fun chases that eventually end in a down and a hook, only endless chases with god-loopers and an inevitable escape. If I get a down the whole team decends on my and makes sure that THIS hook ain't happening.
I am finally understanding this "killer burn out" that some people talk about. I am a killer main through and through, but these days I feel less and less motivation to try to get a few kills and try more to catch up with my survivor tome challenges.
I am sorry but that is YOUR definition of skill. They are killers with powers allowing them to have fast down / chases (nurse, blight) and others way better at defending hooks (hag, booba…). Defending hooks / denying rescue will result in less hooks overall, and less MMR gain with your system.
Also, your system punish tunneling, which is a valid strategy. I don’t want to follow your survivor book forcing me to hook different survivors. What if my build is based around hooking / tunneling the obsession ?
And even if it works, what does it solved ? Nothing. The DBD community, killers or survivors won’t change their way of playing and their definition of a victory / defeat. Camping Bubba will still camp, at lower MMR against less experienced survivors. Tunneling Nurses will still tunnel, and thanks to you again, at a lower MMR.
Ask survivors and killers this :
If I can’t get a single kill as killer, it doesn't matter how many hooks I made (8 for exemple), it’s a defeat for me. I would rather have 1 kill and less hooks. I am playing killer to kill, not hooking them and saying goodbye as they leave through the gates.
And as survivor, it doesn’t matter how many gen we did / pallet stun / long chases. If we cannot get a single survivor out, it’s a hard loss. I don’t deserve to gain MMR if I don’t ever escape, it doesn’t make sense.
I think the core issue behind your reasoning here is that you're stuck on the MMR system as a direct, literal rundown of how skilfully you played in a specific match. It isn't that, and it isn't trying to be that- this MMR system is not a competitive ladder, it's a tool for sorting players into broad skill brackets based on how consistently they win overall.
It doesn't matter how you got your kills in a specific match. That specific match barely matters at all, it's just one point on the board to be tallied up en masse. If you facecamp and hard tunnel your way to those kills, that's totally fine- the more egregious examples of those tactics are already stated to be undesirable and thus fixes are being developed independently, and the more legitimate examples just mean you'll be going against survivors who know how to deal with it. That's what the MMR system is designed to do.
If you want something that measures your skill within a specific match, that's the emblem system. The matchmaking system just wants to put people in broad skill brackets.
I want something similar that actually incentivize to do all your objectives to get mmr.
Didnt read or you dont understand. System doesnt punish tunneling.
The point is to better match all players, the current system is too vague and doesnt take into account what actually happens. A big reason alot of people feel they are miss placed as the current system doesnt actually see how well or bad you did. It just sees black and white
A good player will consistently play well, this system would actually place people more accurately instead of having players raise or lower too quickly. I do actually use a version of the emblems for the survivors system I made up but killer it doesnt work as well. The old killer emblems system gave you puts for over long chases it also gave you puts for doing simple actions, you got rewarded for hits but hits dont matter if you cant get one hook. It's a simple system, rewards those that can get lots of hooks or kills no matter how (slug or tunnel) but punishes those who hard facecamp (bubba as example)
kills/escapes seems to work much better for separating sweaty one and others, it's not a problem.
i honestly believe that at this point there´s no real MMR system in place and the matches are made depending on who hasn´t been playing for long.
I get sweatfests and curbstomps at random at this point.
To be clear, I am separating the emblem system from the matchmaking system. Back when it was used for matchmaking, it was awful, due in large part to having a misguided focus on proving how skilfully someone played- though I'll grant that it was more because it had terrible definitions of how to play skilfully, it was still an awful system.
A matchmaking system is broader than that. It wants generalised skill brackets, not for you to "earn" your place in it. If you win often, stronger opponents. If you lose often, weaker teammates. Anything that complicates that, at least currently, is a gameplay flaw that needs to be fixed regardless.
They stated it Does work like that and accounting it for MMR too.
The SBMM and MMR is just inconsistent asf.
In any other game i´ll either get someone within my rank or one rank below/higer than it.
Oh I agree but the current system isnt that great especially due to the vague nature of what actually happens. The current SBMM only uses the end result which as we know doesn't show how the game went at all.
The biggest issue with the emblem system was how nice it was to altruism and Escaping (even through hatch) and had a safety pip feature, probably would of been a good system if you either pip or didnt
Well, no, we know that the end result doesn't show how that game went. We also know the end result, as an aggregate number over a large batch of games, is a pretty reliable indicator of your skill level. It doesn't matter how insanely out of your mind good you played in one match if you play pretty averagely most of the time.
The current system is also, like, broken? As in, it isn't using the MMR number it generates properly in some situations? So it's hard to say how effective it is at the thing that it is supposed to be doing, but there's little reason to assume it's fundamentally broken.
As for the emblem system, the actual biggest issue is for the killer side. Some killers are penalised for using their powers, and the other emblems aren't fantastic for all situations either.
"1 hook = 1 point
If a survivor reaches next stage = 0.5points"
It does punish tunneling with proxycamping and defending hooks. You want survivor to be able to rescue and killers have to get more hooks to get more points. As I said before, some killers have powers / abilities to achieve this, some don't. It shows that you don't really understand the killer gameplay.
If you really want to stop facecamping, a better solution is to merge all the survivor BP into a pool + merge MMR gain to force them to work together and cooperate. This way, if 3 survivors escape, all survivors will increase their MMR, including the one that died to the facecamping Booba for example. But, if only 1 manage to escape, he will still lose MMR, because as a whole, the team did poorly.
1 hook, they get off and tunnel, 2nd hook get off and tunnel, 3rd hook. That's 3 points so tunneling isnt punished at all.
Camping yes, but not completely, if you force the odd survivor to go into the next stage you arent really punished.
The only way you get punished by this is by 1hooking and camping that 1 person all game. By face camping bubba for example.
So no doesnt punish those plays or strats only face camping people from first hook to death.
BP has no revelations to skill what so ever, so no that's a terrible system.
Actually, current system cares about how game goes... specifically how long it took, if it's too quick, game will consider it as unbalanced match and MMR changes will be smaller.
The reason why matchmaking sucks is simply because MMR is not used for it, not because MMR itself sucks.
Getting 1 kill as killer will already decrease MMR. You are not solving anything because there is no problem. Right now, if you want to get high MMR as killer you have to get a lot of kills, which is hard against good teams of survivors.
A camping Booba won't get to high MMR by camping 1 hook and letting 3 survivors escape. If you are getting matched against these kind of killers, it's because you are not high MMR, and if you are still losing against this strategy, it's because you are even lower.
Yeah but if you can see hook data its going to paint a better picture and overall view than just kills. 1 kill can be 0-9hooks, that's too vague to show as accurate results.
And yeah backfill etc. Is certainly an issue but it's not the only issue, theres some very good survivors low mmr just simply due to them not Escaping. It's happened to my brother, hes by no means at my level but he is good at chased but to look at his team now he will never escape. Low mmr is a pit unless you do swf, he personally can escape alone but he feels bad because he can basically run a killer for multiple mins per chase.
And yeah you cant use the emblems for killer, too many variables I agree. But a simple point system like I suggested works for all killers
That's only too vague if you think that hook counts actually matter. There are quite a few reasons not to think that, ranging from the fact that hooks aren't actually within the killer's control in the way that kills are, to the fact that hooks are not the killer's win condition.
Survivor MMR is a little different, there's room for more nuance there. We don't currently know if it needs that nuance, but it's a little less clear-cut than killer MMR.
Hooks is physically the objective though, you cant get kills without really hooking people. It's like saying you can escape without doing gens (admittedly actually possible due to 3 teammates)
But you're having double standards, you cant have survivors chase counts as skill but not killers hooks.
I'm not saying kills or escapes mean nothing, but you cant just use them. My previous comment explains the issue with doing so
Just that survivors can always suicide on first hook and forces killers to get 1 hook kill, and even if they didn't other survivors might simply ignore him and let him go.
Hook count is not something killers can get on their own.
You absolutely can get kills without hooking people under certain circumstances, but yes, you do normally need to go through hooks to get kills. That doesn't make them the objective- you also need to find, chase, and hit survivors to get kills, but those things aren't your objective; they're the way you get to your objective.
Your previous comment did explain why you shouldn't just use kills or escapes if you want to measure someone's skill within a match. My first comment explained how that's not the goal, though.
Over a large batch of games, the most reliable indicator of overall performance is whether the player won or not. Some nuance can be added here and there - like the MMR difference between players and the order of survivor deaths right now - but looking primarily at win/loss is a perfectly legitimate choice for what this system is supposed to be doing.
I mean, have you ever seen a PvP game where it doesn't increase/decrease based on just win and lose?
Yeah changes can be higher or lower based on performance, but if you lose you will lose points no matter what.
It's no different in DbD, if you win you will get the points, if you lose you will lose points, and it's proven to work just fine.
That would net you 2points in total, if you cant get 5hooks in a 3v1 then yes you probably dont deserve the rank increase.
This is a SBMM that means skill based matchmaking, this system would reward skill. Like I said the only reason youd hate this system is if you face camp as bubba or something....
So the goal of the SBMM isnt to determine skill? Ah see that's where I was going wrong, since the title has Skill in the name I'd assume that's what it was aiming for
The goal of the MMR is to sort people into skill brackets. It is not to give feedback on how skilfully a player performed within a single match.
It looks at trends, not specific matches.
What it measures is skill, just a different use of the word than you're thinking of. That's what I've been trying to convey this whole time, a matchmaking system looks at large batches of games, not any specific match. The question the MMR system asks is simple: How frequently do you win?
It doesn't care how you do it- the people who care about that are the balance team, the overall design team, any tournament organisers, etc. The matchmaking system only wants to know how skilled you are, overall, at winning your matches. Then it'll pit you against opponents who stand a fair chance of winning instead.
And that's why the SBMM is a failure, we can all make cakes (end result) but that doesnt mean they're the same (process)
You can use hooks to get the average skill of someone and itd be more accurate.
You cant say kills allows them to get an overall picture when hooks can do EXACTLY that just more detailed.
The fact 1 kill can be 0-9hooks just shows it's too vague to be accurate. Kills mean something yes, but is some who gets 1 hook and 1 kill consistently the same skill as someone who gets 9 hooks and 1 kill consistently? No. The answer is no...
This system only punished face camping 1st hook to death. Only reason not to like it is if you play that way (face camping bubba)
"don't deserve rank increase"? now I see what's wrong with your opinion.
So I can like, bleed out four people every match and still be able to play against noobs, yeah not opposed to it as lowering MMR only does good for me.
Remember, MMR is not a reward, but more of a punishment for playing sweaty.
Again, it's only vague if you think hooks matter as much as kills for determining someone's overall skill level, and they don't. Hooks are too unreliable- someone who only gets four hooks but four kills might have played in a manner you deem unskilful, but they also might have gone up against a survivor team who made a ton of mistakes that killer player was able to capitalise on, or the killer might've been very skilfully using an alternate method of killing like moris to account for a lower hook-count than someone else. The killer's goal isn't hooks, it's kills- it doesn't matter how they get them.
Let me put it this way- you say your system punishes face camping first hook to death, and that is exactly why your system doesn't work. Would the system really be functioning as a matchmaker that promotes fair and balanced games if the players who use cheap, noob-trap tactics get to keep stomping noobs? Or should a functioning system elevate those players to the point where their tactics stop working because they're going against competent players who know how to deal with it?
That's why it's relevant that in my first message I pointed out that MMR is not a reward or a measure of how skilfully you played, it's a measure of what skill bracket you should be placed in based on how consistently you win. The fact that there are scummy tactics you can use to win isn't an argument against this method, it's the primary reason this method is used for any game. You should get to a point where that tactic stops working, that's how any functional matchmaking system would work, you shouldn't get to keep curbstomping newer and less-skilled players to ruin their matches.