The Carrot and the Stick
About Camping. I am all for helping killers experience more fun play styles, but this blood point and emblem drain is NOT the way to do it. When BBQ was added to the game, it was a reason not to camp. A bonus for hooking unique survivors. That was a good thing for everyone. That was the carrot.
When this new killer emblem change came, it punishes killers who are within a certain radius of a hooked survivor. This will certainly lead to survivors abusing this mechanic (as they often do (pallet looping, BT after exits are powered, unreachable areas)). That was the stick.
I don't feel like it is good for a game to use The Stick to prohibit gameplay that one group finds toxic. And do nothing to cater to the views of the other group.
(Killers get punished for prolonged exposure to hooked survivors, but survivors do not receive any penalty for purposefully kiting and pallet looping the killer, which is just as, if not, more toxic than camping!?)
Use The Stick to punish cheaters, exploiters, and harassers.
Use the Carrot to encourage stimulating gameplay.
Nobody should have to tell you this, BHVR.
When this new killer emblem change came, it punishes killers who are within a certain radius of a hooked survivor. This will certainly lead to survivors abusing this mechanic (as they often do (pallet looping, BT after exits are powered, unreachable areas)). That was the stick.
I don't feel like it is good for a game to use The Stick to prohibit gameplay that one group finds toxic. And do nothing to cater to the views of the other group.
(Killers get punished for prolonged exposure to hooked survivors, but survivors do not receive any penalty for purposefully kiting and pallet looping the killer, which is just as, if not, more toxic than camping!?)
Use The Stick to punish cheaters, exploiters, and harassers.
Use the Carrot to encourage stimulating gameplay.
Nobody should have to tell you this, BHVR.
Comments
As much as nobody should have to tell you a match can't be thrown just because you got tunneled to death AND camped afterwards. Most killers pretend looping is bad, then proceed to tunnel the s**t out of every single player until they can be hooked. Stealth is an aspect of the game that is poorly developed, making it really useless in most scenarios. Looping is the only real way survivors can actually "survive" a cheap tunneling bloodlust killer. So yes, punishing killers for camping is a good thing, that should be more perceivable than it is now, as you won't really lose points by doing so, even after the update. And I don't see how the usual "survivors will abuse that" argument can make a point here. Do hooked survivors stop losing health while on hook, if the killer is near (and I think this should be a thing)? Do they get points for it? Not at all.
To answer your question, no, looping is not and will never be more toxic than camping is. By camping, you are preventing a player to actually enjoy the game, until he dies, while also making him lose pips. While on hook, players can do nothing. Killers can still chase, move, break pallets, hit THROUGH pallets and windows (yet no killer seems to have a problem with that). Of course, I dislike gen rush as well, while playing as a killer, but they can't just add more time to gen repairs (or they could, but then exit gates should open instantly). From what you are saying, you can't punish a side for doing something the other side finds toxic, but you are saying pallet looping is toxic? I must have lost the reasoning behind this. Again, camping and tunneling killers are preventing someone from playing, something the killer is never bound to. If you don't want a "playstyle" being punished, even cheating can be considered a playstyle (and toxic, for those who are exposed to it), so cheaters shouldn't be punished? Getting tunneled, camped or gen rushed is not stimulating gameplay. And while camping is the easiest one to address, tunneling and gen rushes are more difficult. Some people, including myself, proposed an on hud indicator that shows both killers and survivors how many totems are still up/ have been cleansed. It would make a secondary objective more prominent, especially now that lobbies are full of tryharding NOED killers. But guess what, killers don't want that. Everytime something that could make survivors focus on other things rather than just gens, killer mains disagree, unless it is something that would take more time than a gen done by yourself, even if all 4 survivors are doing that. About BBQ, it rewards you for playing the way you SHOULD. If we have to be rewarded to play how something is meant to be played and not to be punished for playing badly, then survivors might as well get a perk that gives them a 90% speed boost for every objective interaction, because that is what they should be doing. I wouldn't mind an update that forces survivors to leave once the gates are open, for instance, since that is what they are supposed to do.
ALso, BHVR still hasnt understood that ranking up is actually a punishment. The emblem point punishment is actually a reward for camping.
This game and its weird logic.... sometimes its just pathetic
you forgot the perk discouraged tunneling, it gave you a tier on the perk that only worked for the first hook, so it gave you the urge to hook all survivors before targeting one of them
And there we go again, I suppose people won't ever stop and consider that SWF groups already tell each other how many totems have been cleansed. Devs confirmed they want to buff solo survivors to the point where they have each and every single piece of information that a SWF group would share among themselves. And that includes totems as well. Totems, anyway, are secondary objectives. Secondary means it is optional, and something optional shouldn't mean a death sentence because "look how I've done nothing all game, but now I can instadown". EVEN Billys, Myers and LFs run that cheap perk now. On the other hand, being forced to leave and having to face a NOED noob is another thing. Being forced to leave means you would end up having the doors shut, after a given timer. NOED means they can just stay by the exit and go do something else when the killer goes far enough. Of course, I am not saying survivors will have to know WHERE totems are, just how many haven't been cleansed. Killers always say they find matches to be too short. And this would solve both things, survivors would either have to take the risk and power the last generator, knowing they could go against NOED, or try to look for that last totem first (effectively slowing the game down), killers would have more time to hunt down players before they can leave. Both sides would benefit, yet the one who wants to instadown disagrees. Guess what side it is. One last thing: before anyone tries to come up with the game being "survivor sided", please think. There are less hatches than pallets on maps like Family Residence, for instance.
Oh no, I didn't. People will still use it to camp and only go, if they ever move, to survivors who are close enough to the hook, to come back every minute or less and make sure the guy remains hooked. One thing that would at least partially solve tunneling is making the killer lose Bloodlust when he misses a hit. He would still chase you until you die, but that would at least give you more time and, perhaps, a chance to lose him. Don't get me wrong, I play both sides, and I am more than happy to die, if the killer played skillfully. But if he camps for no reason other than camping, if he tunnels the same player to death (be it me or somebody else), if he constantly goes back to totems whenever a guy is working on them (because he has Thrill of the hunt) EVEN while chasing someone, he doesn't deserve any compassion or reward. And people at Behaviour know that camping ruins the experience of players who are denied their game, or they wouldn't (too softly) try to punish it.
the perk was literally made to counter camping and tunneling and it failed CLAP CLAP CLAP
Agree with OP. The stick shouldn't be used to direct game play, it's supposed to be for breaking rules. They need to be adding incentives (carrots) for getting killers to play the way they would prefer. Perfect example being BBQ.
To be fair killers have gotten a lot of buffs lately. So nothing to cater for the other group isn't quite fair.
Problem I see is that camping is already quite effective. If you instead give killers advantages when playing the game non campy, than not camping but using the incentives to not camp could become overpowered for killers.
I see how some of you are saying that more positive things, be it upgrades, changes, or new perks, should happen, but at some point, there gets to be too many higher numbers and things need to be nerfed or even removed. You could look at it this way: A person has a disease in their arm to represent the disliked parts of the game. They could either treat it with medicine, where it will possibly come back later (this is the carrot), or they could just cut the arm off (this is the stick). Of course, my example has flaws, since cutting it off would remove the disease entirely, but I'm sure you get my point: There are different solutions to different situations. Maybe BHVR doesn't have the medicine for this disease, so they need to cut the part that has the disease off.
100% inaccurate.
Number 1: The emblem punishment is 100% doing nothing. You lose like 4% on Chaser for facecamping which does nothing
Number 2: There already is a carrot for not camping. You get LOADS more bloodpoints if you don't camp without there being a penalty.
The problem is most people are just ignorant. Flashing a -5 bp on the screen every 3 seconds would stop camping and isn't harsh.
Most people who camp don't really pay attention to rank. Also can we stop calling it rank? It's MMR. Even if they claim it's rank. It's MMR.
You do realize what MMR stands for?
There are those type of guys that dont care about rank and then there are those that want to derank which is possible by camping now.
I doubt that anyone tries to rank up after he has done his first time rank 1 achievment
The game is still so vastly unbalanced in favor of survivors that a scenario like that is hardly one to even consider given how wide the gap has been the last almost 3 years and still is.
Match Matching Rating. Ranking typically implies there's some sort of prize. In this game there is no benefit to being rank 1 so it is pretty much just for match making. so wink right back at you because your wink was nothing.
you cannot derank by camping. You would literally have to camp all 3 and even then you should black pip due to the other points you gained from hits, hooks, kills, etc.
THANK YOU!!
you are the one person out of a hundred who actually understands this!
you wouldnt beleave how many times i already posted this exact same message under anti-camping threats who tried to nerf and punish killers.
Unbalanced in favor of survivors, you say. I can't see how that's true, though. Sure, survivors will try to block your path to the hook. Sure, survivors will try to help their friends with flashlights. No, survivors don't get bonus movement speed because they have been in a chase longer than needed, without being able to get a hit. Pallets are a one time use thing, get them down and they are gone, creating a dead zone in that area (or everywhere on the map, from the very start, if you are playing on Family Residence). After that, you may run a little, but the killer will get you eventually, and it probably will be just because of Bloodlust, not because he was able to anticipate your movements. You can't really say a flashlight save is unbalanced, for instance, if you heard survivors running when you were picking someone up, but you still decided to do so. Hit them and they're gone. On the other hand, while killers can see the auras of hooks, gens, exit gates and hex totems, survivors have none of that, if not by wasting perk slots. The way I see it, this game was designed to let killers have dinner ready, without them even cooking it on their own.
If you had two players, playing killer role, would the two of you not try to coordinate into patrolling different areas of the map, or would you both follow the same route? Survivors will try to help each other as they can, same as a double killer squad would. Now, by playing both sides almost equally, I know how frustrating gen rushing is. But it depends on you, because of where you decide to check first. I've had many teams of 3-4 people, each with DS and Brand New Parts, yet they only managed to complete a single gen. It's also a thing about luck, by how fast you can find them as killer, or unluck, if you get found first as a survivor (and tunneled to death). A lot of maps are also very straightforward, mostly consisting of long corridors, which favor KILLER movement (look at Azarov's Resting Place, a long vertical corridor). As a killer, the hardest part is having the match being hard.
"No, survivors don't get bonus movement speed because they have been in a chase longer than needed, without being able to get a hit." Who ever said anything of this nonsense? I sure didn't.
Or this
" You can't really say a flashlight save is unbalanced, for instance, if you heard survivors running when you were picking someone up, but you still decided to do so. Hit them and they're gone."
I never said any of this nonsense, where are you getting this dribble from?
"On the other hand, while killers can see the auras of hooks, gens, exit gates and hex totems, survivors have none of that, if not by wasting perk slots. The way I see it, this game was designed to let killers have dinner ready, without them even cooking it on their own. "
Who in their right mind would say ridiculous things like this? Someone who doesn't play both sides at rank 1 or have a lot of hours, that's who.
Your opinions are so out of touch with the reality of how the game actual goes that I find is highly unlikely that you actually play both sides at rank 1 or have a decent amount of hours to back up these opinions on balance. No one with these qualifications would think this way.
And there we go, with the usual killer main enlightenment. You killer mains believe you are so undeniably right, it is just a waste of time trying to elaborate things that contain more than one word, with you. I'm not saying you said that, that's why there was a very noticeble "FOR INSTANCE". You should see it written now... Nobody ever played in rank 1, if they disagree with you killers LOL
We're forgetting that rank 1 only means longer queue times here, aren't we? A level 20 could be just as good as (and even better) a rank 1 is. But again, I can't blame you for smashing my head onto the wall, since I knew it would be a waste of time. I guess examples are not so easy to understand and I would like to elaborate them in a way that feels more suitable to you. But how can I, when killer mains only think this?
"Me killer. Me 4k. Me best. Survivors no good. Me kill them."
The whole point here is that killer mains, aka you, want the game made easier and easier and easier than it already is. I am surprised nobody has still proposed to completely remove pallets or make survivors only walk, and only three steps per minute. I know truth burns, and that is why "my opinions are so out of touch". Oh, and killers DO see all the auras I listed so, what you are calling opinions, are FACTS.
Now, if you can provide me decent reasoning and no ahead of yourself arguments, we can start talknig about the right things, but you providing reasoning is "highly unlikely". And before you say it, I'm not saying survivors should see auras either. But not even admitting killers have it the easy way...
Oh please do enlighten me on what qualifications you are using to deem me a "killer main". I have played BOTH sides at rank 1 for years. Here's my profile and proof with hours, let us all see yours.
https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198018661768/
Unlike you I actually have experience playing both sides at rank 1 and no rank 1 is NOT the same as rank 20. Keep deluding yourself.
If you weren't dense. I never said "Oh, and killers DO see all the auras I listed so, what you are calling opinions, are FACTS" wasn't true. I said I never said they didn't Mr. Bright.
You're acting just as a killer main would, darling. I want to have the game balanced for both sides, and playing killer is easier than having bots doing it for you. I don't want survivors to escape everytime, including myself, nor do I want killers to get 3-4ks everytime. Balance is still far from this game, and many more things need to be done. I do not have a steam profile, since I play on console (as I already made clear enough). You can look at that as an excuse, I don't care. But I will just post one of your answers to another thread.
Those seem to be your one-liners, are they not?
That one liner still seems to fit you quite perfectly it seems.
Someone disagreeing with you does not make them a killer main. It just makes you a child who can't stand someone telling them no even after they've explained why. I've already posted my credentials to prove otherwise. I'm done with this conversation here, you're wasting my time. You're inexperienced at this game and clearly bad at it based on your low ranks. I'm not going to try and rationalize with an irrational person.
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