Patrick's response to "What is a Win?"
Patrick, the lead game designer answered the question during the Q&A "What is a 'win'" according to Dead by Daylight's gameplay.
He replied in an objectively questionable way, subjectively somewhat mocking way that it doesn't matter how well you did, if you died you died, and if you escaped / killed a bunch, you win.
One of the things he said was,
...That's all MMR is trying to do, it goes, 'we know that you died' it's ignoring how you got there because there's too much nuance to be able to make a real effective system, and we just ignore that.
Listen Patrick, buddy. I get what you're saying, and I understand why it needs to be like that. Buddy, you don't just go out there with however much prep time you had and essentially tell a community full of people questioning your system, "Yeah you could be the best player on the team, but if you died our system recognizes you as trash"
I appreciate the honesty from BHVR for once, but really? Was there really no better way of saying this? Everybody is quoting this one segment just because of how poor of a response this was.
Please, get someone to proofread your responses ahead of time because wow that whole segment was a trainwreck.
Comments
It's like you didn't understand a word I said.
They literally said it takes nothing into account except if you die or escape lol they said it would be ‘too nuanced’ to include everything else
I mean you say this is honesty, but it's off the back of datamining finding this fact out and they also previously told us that it wouldn't just be about survival rate. They lied. But I kind of already knew it.
pretty typical for BHVR lol
These devs are interesting to say the least.
One patch they give us an amazing chapter like blight, and then there is this.
I just hope they can do better in the future.
"I think a lot of people are looking at mmr wrong.
It isn't a case of your mmr is higher so you are a better player. It isn't meant to be compared.
If a person can hide in a corner and still get out of the exit gate then shouldn't they start facing stronger killers who don't lose what bassically is a 3v1?"
"The original system that they say failed only took into account kills and escapes. This new system revolves around kills and escapes, but the amount at which your MMR increases/decreases is more complicated and based on things like how long it takes to die/escape/kill, and in what order.
It IS more complicated and nuanced than just dying or escaping, and that fine tuning is likely what makes this system work while the first one failed."
Thank you Seraphor.
The one thing I agree with people who don't like SBMM is that it should have been called something else. Nothing makes a gamer's hackles rise faster than questioning their "Skill". Maybe "Results Based Match Making".
2 years btw.
And all they came up with was going back to a scrapped idea they knew didn't work.
Don't kid yourself.
A lot of people make hyperbolic statements about how their pets could have done a better job, and how long everything took. I say this with all due respect - if you are certain you could do a better job, please do so. I would genuinely love to give you my hard earned money to play a better product.
You are aware how hard it is to make an asymm game and compete in the genre, right?
Why do you think people really want to see VHS succeed?
It's easy to just say "If you don't like it, leave." No, if there is a problem in this game, then it should ABSOLUTELY be ######### fixed.
DBD has an absolute hold on the genre because of the amount of licenses it has. The vast vast majority of players, myself included, pllays this game casually and for fun.
But this system is not fun, and I personally am not sold on other asymm games in the market right now that gives me what DBD has given me. So I could either just not play the game and abandon it entirely, or I could help pressure the devs to fix this #########.
While I'm not aware of how difficult it is to compete in this genre, I am aware of how difficult game development is in general.
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not telling people "love it or leave it". I'm saying that comments like "My cat could have come up with a better system", "This is the best they could come up with after 2 years", and "The Devs are so incompetent" does nothing to further anyone's cause. You're not going to get people to listen to you while you're shitting on them. If people actually want the Devs to listen, then they should present their constructive criticism and not just spew vitriol all over the place.
A lot of people are disappointed the devs lied to them.
They can express their disappointment and criticize them at the same time. We aren't going to just sit there and smile thinking "Oh, you could do better." No, this is a paid product. One that we continued to support through DLCs and Cosmetics.
I'm sure the devs would love for their community to not ######### on them, I would like that too. But when you're selling something, and you promise it's going to go one way but instead cheapen out and go the other way. People are going to get justifiably mad.
Let me put this in context to another dev that ######### up with their community.
Have you heard of a game called Ooblets? If you haven't, they were a crowdfunded Pokemon ripoff.
They promised their Crowdfunders that once the game is finished, they will give them Steam keys to play the game with at an early access.
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They didn't do that.
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Instead they took an Epic Exclusivity deal, shutting off everyone who was expecting the game to come to Steam because they promised for it to come to Steam.
You can argue "Oh well, maybe the devs needs the money." That's not the point. They were crowdfunded and now they're going behind their community's back to force a change on them that the majority of them do not agree with and are rightfully angry about.
Now, BHVR hasn't gone as awfully or as badly as Ooblets devs (who has physically and verbally attacked their fanbase in the past). But they also wanted to excuse not listening to criticism as being bad for their mental health.
I agree that not listening to toxic comments is better for your mental health in the long run. But a lot of these comments are LEGITIMATE CONCERNS over how the MMR system works. And a lot of them are also people wanting to hold BHVR accountable for essentially lying to us what the contents of it are and how the MMR system works. You have to understand there is a difference between toxic comments (outright attacking the devs) and people with legitimate concerns.
The ultimate goal is the escape. If escaping doesn't matter, what the hell is your objective as survivor? Or should I say what's your objective as unhooker,gen jockey, and runner in dead by daylight?
I don't have a problem with escaping being the most important factor. Having nothing else matter though is just lazy and doesn't give used matches based at all on skill.
i guess it's just to hard to implement something that incorporates all the nuances and small details which indicate "skill". I honestly don't know either how complex a code like this would look. How can a basic KI determine if you're a good Legion? Or a good Wraith? Or if you facecamp/basement camp with Bubba and kill everyone?
But as Otz already said, the outrage because "i run them for 5 gens and get downgraded while the others escape and get promoted" is exaggerated. This NEVER happens every game (people who say this are intentionally exaggerating, no one runs the killer for 5 gens every game), yes it can happen and that's annoying but if you're that good in general you will be fine in most of your matches, because a lot of killers will drop chases with you and go for weaker players.
People just don't like to admit that they lost. As solo queue survivor you can get into a loop of death after death as survivor. Sometimes those deaths are outside of your control, for example when you're left on hook and no one comes to save you. This could be due to bad team mates or a heavy camping killer. And I get that in those circumstances it's easy to justify the loss by saying, well before I died he chased me for 2 generators or I completed 2 generators, or before I died I saved 3 people from hook and then feel like you've won even though you lost. But players need to face reality. Even if the way that you lost felt unfair (for example getting camped to death) It's still a loss when it comes to MMR and that's actually ok.
The fact that he was mocking those survivors who are actually efficient at this game by saying they fixed 10 gens (when there is only 5), healed for 98 health states (I wish, half of the time I can only get 1-2 people healed), looped for 7 hours (no boo the match only lasts 5-15 mins) in a single match, just shows his arrogance.
But we like to screw around right? 🤡
As someone who's been interrupted on a hook save by an idiot bringing the killer to the hook for a hook bomb, I can safely say that hook saves are a bit of a skill too.
The saddest thing about this system is that, looking at how some abilities and perks work, you COULD EASILY have a system that can tell a 4k through slugging from a 4k through 12 hooks without tunneling, camping or anything. The mechanics are there already. a system that can tell if you survived through hiding and camping the hatch/gate or if you survived through being good at chases or hiding (hiding while doing stuff like gens, unhooking, totems etc that is) a system that can tell if you died after running the killer for the last 2-3 gens and your teammates bolted for a good reason (camping/noed/bloodwarden etc)
The mechanics ARE there.