I’m a big believer in synergy between Teachables and a killers power, but Oni doesn’t make sense.
Funnily enough Zanshin Tactics is the perk that makes the most sense on Oni. When zipping around at high speed using Demon Dash, Zanshin helps a lot in keeping track of advantageous survivor resources.
But Nemesis & Blood Echo don’t make sense in terms of what Oni’s power does.
I see no discernible benefit in Nemesis making a survivor Oblivious mid chase, and switching them to being the Obsession, in terms of what benefit that’s meant to give Yamaoka’s Wrath or Blood Fury.
Blood Echo is a pretty decent perk, but in terms of strictly Oni and how his power works, survivors are NOT going to stay injured against Oni wherever they can help it anyway.
I’ve been able to figure out the synergy between pretty much every killer’s power and how their teachables compliment that particular killer, but I can’t figure out Oni in this context.
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I think his perks relate to his concept more rather than his power... I don't know if that made sense, but since his whole theme is about powerful rage and blood, his perks (in this case) were tailored to better suit that concept.
For instance, blood echo punishes those who are injured because injured survivors leave blood & nemesis punishing those who try to fight back hence why they were designed that way.
I think the effects are fine too because an exhausted survivor means they can't get away as easily while demon fury is active and an oblivious survivor may not be able to catch you zooming at them with demon rush. As for the obsession switch, Kazan was constantly hunting down fake samurais if I'm not mistaken so by having the obsession switch, the Oni would have more specific "targets" to hunt for since he wanted to be the best samurai in the country... I think that's right? So if he were to be stunned by survivors, he may mistake those for opponents who want to challenge him.
I found clown to be the same way.
Bamboozle is a perk to help window loops which is something a good clown will never have an issue with
Coulrophobia is a perk that helps killers snowball which is something clown already struggles at
Pop is a perk best utilised by high mobilty killers which doesn’t include clown.
A good set of teachables but they don’t synegise with clown himself
I think Starstruck is the worst. A TR based exposed perk on a 110% killer with no mobility and a small Terror Radius.
On the contrary, blocking a window with bamboozle at a loop, then placing a tonic between a survivor and the next vault or pallet is extremely precarious for survivors.
Clown shines when survivors remain injured, and Coulrophobia is a fantastic slugging perk that can help Clown snowball when teammates try to get others back up on their feet.
Pop compensates Clown for focusing so much attention on the chase rather than gens.
That’s somewhat true but i feel like certain perks complement his gameplay more like oppression or brutal strength.
As for oni I think they are reaching a point where perk synergy isn’t really too important. Survivors are having a similar issues for example janes perks literally have no synergy at all
Those perks are actually kinda good as a set on oni tho if you think about it
Zanshin tactics gives you information on resources so you know who and where to commit to for early game chases, and what tiles you are approaching in power from the outside and start thinking how to play around them
Blood echo punishes the survivors for not healing against you still letting you snowball in your power since all injured survivors now don't have their deadhards which makes them much easier to hit in power
Nemesis throws some confusion into the mix and works like a mini im all ears, so using the aura you can get some tracking to help you get an injury in your first chase or leave that person behind and jump back on them later while they are still affected by oblivious and they get less time to react
So his perks help with, first hits, and power usage, which means the perks make a decent complement to his kit but still definitely outshined by other perks on oni
One example I can think of is territorial imperative why would you want that on a 110 speed killer
Because Huntress has the best ranged ability in the game. When she’s warned about another survivor going for a basement save, it doesn’t necessarily matter if she gets back there in time or not. Using shack as an example, TI gives her the notification, she can ready up a hatchet at the most expected exit she thinks one of those survivors will take upon leaving the basement.
eh still not useful honestly
Huntress can exert considerable pressure on the basement once she gets a hook down there and using TI. It’s almost as bad as Trapper & Hag, again, because she doesn’t necessarily need to be anywhere near the basement because of her hatchets.
As I pointed out though, where it can be helped, survivors aren’t going to stay injured against Oni. Why give him an unlimited source of blood orbs if it can be avoided. This is where I find Blood Echo doesn’t make sense. On most other killers it’s going to a shock/surprise for those running exhaustion that THEN motivates them to heal wherever possible.
But with the way Oni’s power already works, that motivation to heal ASAP is already there. Very rarely in the times I’ve messed around with Oni have I had multiple survivors remaining in the injured state upon hooking because they’re not stupid enough to stay that way, even if they’re running Iron Will. Meaning Oni gets little mileage from Blood Echo.
DBD has pretty bad synergy with perks. I was thinking of survivors with perks that all make sense together, and the only one that came to mind was Dwight.
Is it me or Aura reading of Nemesis perk is useless? Stunned for 3sec, Aura show 4sec, which mean you have 1sec to check where they go.
Claudette’s make sense too. Her ability to reliably help heal others using empathy depends on her remaining in the healthy state wherever possible. Thus Self Care & Botany Knowledge synergise and give her HEAPS of mileage out of medkits whether she uses them on herself or anybody else.
With some flashlight blinds you won’t even recover in time to see an aura. The aura reading definitely needs to be buffed for a longer time frame.
Botany Knowledge is definitely the perk that links the other two together, but Self-Care and Empathy don't directly benefit each other like Dwight's 3 perks do. But gameplay-wise, it does make more sense than say David's perks lol
Jake, even injured, is supposed to be Undetectable enough to reliably get heaps of mileage out of a toolbox for hook sabotage saves.
Iron Will and Calm Spirit combine together to make one larger perk like Prove Thyself and Leader, but Saboteur is unaffected by either of them. I find Bite The Bullet, Pharmacy, or Distortion fits the third slot better.
Actually David’s are probably the most cleverly designed. Although No Mither is designed as Hard Mode first and fore most, it’s also actually the first anti-tunnel perk.
The idea is that David can take more risks being bold around the killer to take risky hook saves against camping killers, or take the heat off a tunnelled survivor. I.e. take one for the team. DH gives him the extra health state NM takes away, WGLF encourages altruism.
The idea is if David intentionally goes down for a teammate, because the killer gets a very clear indicator from the broken status that David is running No Mither, it forces the killer to pick you up straight away so that whoever was unhooked or tunnelled gets a good chunk of time to get away and get a breather.
If the killer isn’t paying attention and leaves David downed, then David can more safely crawl away before trying to revive because of the no blood and quieter grunting In the dying state, heavily punishing the killer once they realise their mistake and return for David.
I think you’ve misunderstood what I mean. Although Calm Spirit & Iron Will have no direct synergy with Saboteur, it means that even if Jake is injured he can more safely approach (or hide) close to a hook the killers is carrying someone to.
I.e. a hook sabotage and save is likely to be much more successful if the killer didn’t even know Jake was around until those last few seconds when Jake is actually engaging in the sabotage action.
I think most teachables like are based more on concept (as @mazoobi38 said) and personality of the character. Personally, I disagree with saying Blood Echo is bad on Oni. All it takes is one to separate from the group or dumb survivors (and we know there's a lot out there), to get Blood Echo to be worth your while on Oni. There are better perks for him though, I'll agree on that. Looking at just teachables I do feel Blood Echo is the best for him.
May I ask. What's the point of Monitor and Abuse on Doctor? Except nerfing yourself.
Doctor has add ons that decrease terror radius when static blast is on cooldown can be used with monitor and abuse for sorta stealth doc
Yeah, but it doesn't work well with his basekit. I always look at 3 teachables + basekit power.
Really?! You don’t see it?!
M&A causes survivors HEAPS of confusion on Doc in conjunction with either Calm, Discipline, or both.
How is that nerfing himself?
Unless you’re referring to Static Blast, in which case I (and any pro Doc player in the right mind) will wait till I’m actually in a chase to use it so that I’m 100% guaranteed to tier up madness for at least 1 survivor, if not more, because of the sudden jump in TR which doesn’t give anyone else enough time to try and reach a locker.
In fact M&A and Calm add ons on Doc can cause enough confusion with the TR that it actually turns him into a stealth killer, whether survivors do or do not hear a TR.
Iron maiden and legion lol, it doesn't make sense both for power and concept
I mean... Killer Instinct reveals survivors in Lockers. The faster opening is a bonus.
Other than that, I think the core idea of Legions perks were to address some highly complained about issues killers had about survivor behaviour at the time
Tbh I don't know why you find Oni exceptional in this area. Why does Legion have Mad Grit, he gets no benefits from it compared to other Killers.
Why does Cannibal have Knock Out? A good Cannibal will be getting downs with his chainsaw, ideally.
Why does the Twins have a perk built around kicking generators, and lunging, both of which Victor cannot do, you'd think those perks could be built around debuffing survivors or something, as then Victor and Charlotte can use these perks.
I could probably find more examples of other Killers. If you look at the "meta" or most "optimal" builds, very rarely will Killers actually run their own teachables, unless they have a very powerful meta perk (e.g. Corrupt on The Plague).
I don't feel like Oni is exceptional in this area. With the newer Killers especially, I feel like the teachables are more designed around perks that will change the game and sometimes even work well on other Killers, as this is how the developers add longevity into the game, forcing you to have to grind perks on multiple different Killers.
Yeah but the fact the killer instinct reveals survivors in the lockers makes lockers less effective against Legion, and therefore I think good survivors are less likely to use lockers against him for this reason anyway. You can use a locker to juke Legion by jumping into it if you time it right and he is just about to run out of his power and misses the last frenzy hit, but I'd doubt tbh if BHVR had future locker jukes in mind when they added this perk.
Your second sentence here is key I think, Legions perks were created to address issues in the meta, they were not added to make sense with Legion, and I think that is the case for a lot of Killer perks.
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Legion is about discouraging, punishing team work
I already explained how awesome M&A is on Doc. M&A only doesn’t make sense to players that gamble with Static Blast, using it willy nilly without being sure or not it will actually affect anyone.
Cannibal: I think it’s hubris to believe that even the best of the best of ANY killer never find themselves in situations where using M1 is more ideal than using their power. With LF it means Knockout & Franklin’s compensate him for circumstances he’s better off using the mallet rather than the chainsaw.
Twins: Charlotte isn’t always going to have access to Victor, or can be in situations where using Victor is appropriate. Coup De Grâce gives Charlotte a little something up her sleeve in these scenarios. Oppression is simple. If Charlotte gets a failed skill check notification, she knows exactly where to send Victor next.
I said "ideally" the Cannibal will be getting downs with his chainsaw, I didn't say all the time, so it's not hubris lol.. Against good loopers you have to take the M1s where you can, but the Cannibal is all about getting quick downs with his Chainsaw. I'm simply pointing out that having a perk which encourages you to down people with M1s is going against the very nature of Cannibals power. Which is exactly your point with Oni and his perks, correct? Therefore, my point is, Oni is not unique in that he has perks which don't gel with his power.
In the case of Oni, his perks simply suck compared to most other perks, they don't really go well with any Killer. Nemesis has very specific use alongside PWYF, and you might see Blood Echo being used in very niche builds playing around exhaustion (or its good with Killers who can keep lots of people injured, like Legion)
I agree with you in that I think it would be nice if the teachables of each Killer complimented their power, however the obvious issue here is this constrains the design of both the power and the perks for new Killers. It is easier to introduce whatever perks the dev might want to introduce, in order to shake up the meta across ALL Killers, if they don't also have to design each new perk around the new Killers power (and vice versa).
So that is probably the reason why you will see a lot of Killers have perks which don't necessarily make sense on them.
Most teachables don't synergize well with the killers they come with.
Sometimes, a Killer has the Perks the game needs, not what the Killer needs. And that's okay, partner.
I disagree
Examples? Cause I have plenty of examples of teachable that don't work well with their killer.
This happens alot in that often times a killer's power does not synergize well with the perks they came out with. I always like to point out Doc and Monitor and abuse for this. Doc tends to benefit from having a higher TR for his static blast in finding your next target when not in chase. Monitor lowers the TR when not in chase, which hampers the static blast and increases your TR while in a chase when you no longer need the static blast.
Well sorry i didn't read any of the comments of this thread... i'll just delete my comment then
I use the Blast when I try to find someone quick. If I am in chase then what's the point of using it except hitting someone with Madness?
And like I said, I don't consider Add-ons in this really, just basekit + 3 teachables. Add-ons change a Killer and certain Perks help in that regard.
But I also don't play him that much. I was just always thinking you use Static to find Survivors and Monitor reduces the range of your Static, making it worse.
Really not many killers have teachables that synergise with their power like there is trapper who only really agitation synergises with, wraiths are all kinda awful and dont synergise all that well imo, billy has tinkerer which definetly is a synergy and an arguement can be made for enduring, all of nurses one are pretty good with her, huntresses once agan are all useless and dont really synergise with her at all, PWYF and STBFL do kinda synergise with myers, hag obviouslys the are all hexes and hag excels at hexs but really they dont synergise with he too much ruin does benefit hag as much as other killers and the same can be said about 3rd seal, doctor is weird it would seem like his do synergise but monitor is pretty detrimental in his power as most of the time you wont be blasting in chase and it gets rid of a decent chunk of range out of chase and it also lessens the area of overwhelming, Bubba has 2 m1 perks, Freddy is all endgame which i guess could be considered some kind of a synergy since he is weaker at the endgame with no gens to TP, Pigs are all suited for a high mobility killer, clowns dont synergise either as phasmamain said, spirit I guess the info from haunted and rancor is useful and exposed ir reallys useful to spirit, Legion only really discordance synergies with his power, plague is probably the best example of the perks synergising with a snowball perk and an early game perk, GF thrilling is reallys best for high mobility but IAE does give him some help in the chase which he needs and then furative does jack ######### cause its furative, I guess demos kinda work he is definitely better at dealing with pallets than windows and he m1s people fairly often and he kinda has some surprise with his portals and the devs really wanting to make him a stealth killer. Oni well thats the whole point of this post,.Slinger all of his perks like work on him but are much better suited to a killer with better mobility like the perks arent bad on him but so many killers would use all of his perks way better than him. PH trail is kinda ehh he can defend it with his power so I guess thats one, deathbound is useless PH does not need long range info and forced penance is also pretty useless. Blight he doesnt m1 that much and 2 of his perks relying on m1s. Twins' perks are just a mess they dont synergise at all. Trickster also doesnt get much use of his perks starstruck when he has a 24m terror radius and he isnt any stronger at endgame but I guess crowd control kinda synergises because he is better at pallets than windows. I havent played nemmy so I cant say much abt that
The point is madness is one of best stall tools in the game. The risk of not hitting anybody with such a hefty cool down is too great. With M&A it means the blast has greater coverage during a chase (especially with Calm) increasing the chance of catching more than who you’re chasing by surprise. More madness every 60 seconds means more game stall
Your point on Plague's perks synergizing, basically Corrupt and Infectious are two of the strongest perks in the game, so for that reason they "synergize" with pretty much every Killer.
But agreed with your general examples, the vast majority of Killers do not really synergize with their perks, and pretty much every Killer's perks can be argued to work better with another Killer.
@TheClownIsKing Oni's perks help him at improving his snowball and eliminating his weakness of poor early game. How do they do that?
Zanshin Tactic warns you of where strong loops spawn although you should know this without the perk if you play a lot.
Nemesis allows you to switch obsession when you get hit by a pallet. Myers has a perk called Play with your food. It gives movement speed whenever you lose the Obsession and Nemesis ensures that you always chase obsession and that you can keep track of them when you get stunned. These two perk eliminate one of Oni's greatest weaknesses which is getting first M1 hit to activate his power.
Blood Echo ensures that when you activates his power and he successfully slugs multiple people, He can apply Exhaustion to chase weaker targets that are injured to get his power again after a successful hook.
Is this good perk build for rank 1? No, but these perks are not designed for rank 1, they're designed for new comers at rank 20. It makes total sense as Myers power is similar to Oni, so a new player that enjoy power-up based killers might start with Myers and Oni at rank 20 to learn the game.