A core game mechanic: Hooks, is the primary source of most of this games complaints.
Should this game simply move to a respawn mechanic?
I get why the hooks exist as a horror trope, and as a nod to the influences that led to the implementation of them into this game.
But when we look at the vast list of complaints coming from both sides, most of those can be linked all the way back to the hook system.
What if after a down the survivor instead “dies”, and a timer starts whereby the other remaining survivors need to reach one of 4 randomised respawn “stations” that are unseen by the killer? A downed survivor can be respawned into the game twice, with the third down summoning the entity (as done from the ground in the EGC). If however a “dead” survivors respawn timer expires before another survivor reaches a respawn “station”, this also leads to permanent death.
Let’s look at the problems that the hook system contributes to.
SURVIVORS -
- Hook Camping. Although survivors are NOT entitled to 2 additional chances, most behave like a killer should always allow them to be unhooked twice. This understandably leads to lots of frustration for survivors on the hook when a killer chooses to camp. A respawn mechanic would get rid of this frustration.
- Mori off of first hook, and Tunnelling. Mori’s are only as infuriating as they are for many survivors because of the strategy most killers use when a mori is at play: hook camping & tunneling. It’s not uncommon for a killer to intentionally remain close to a hooked survivor on their first hook, with intent to immediately down them the moment they’re unhooked so that they can be mori’d. Even without mori, plain outright tunnelling is always a miserable experience for the survivor that has been targeted, and DS does little to address this other than giving that survivor a few more seconds in the game. A respawn mechanic replacing the hook system would alleviate these gripes, and a Mori after first respawn would not seem as unfair.
- Slugging. Indirectly, hooks contribute to this issue due to killer time constraints (more on this in the killer section). But the bigger issue is when killers do this for seemingly no reason than to be spiteful, and watch survivors bleed out. The game only makes it possible for killers to choose to grief this way because of the necessity to leave survivors in the dying state sometimes because it simply takes too long to carry and hook in some circumstances.
- BBQ. Yeah in most instances this is usually easy to counter, and survivors usually caught out by it have been lazy. But there can also be many frustrating instances where you’re simply no where near a locker, and simply too far away to reach the 40m “safe” zone either. Plus some killers use the particularly nasty combo of BBQ, Infectious, and Iron Maiden making it borderline impossible to avoid detection if you unfortunately do not have Calm Spirit equipped. BBQ wouldn’t need to exist if a killer has no choice but to go look for another survivor because there is no one to camp if a respawn mechanic existed.
KILLERS -
- Gen rushing & Slugging. With how absurdly fast coordinated teams can get gens repaired in higher ranks, slugging on a regular basis is usually necessary. Why? Because once a killer reaches higher ranks it takes far too long carrying every downed survivor to a hook whilst 3 other survivors are still free to work on gens. It’s ridiculous that a killer engaging in a core part of their gameplay can actually be what LOSES them the match.
- Flashlight saves. Firstly, get off your high horse. It doesn’t matter how good of a killer you are, sometimes you’ve downed someone nowhere close to a wall or obstruction you can look at before a pick up, and you can be diligent checking the area for other survivors with flashlights, yet still end up blinded during the pick up. It’s frustrating, and obnoxious, and is a HUGE set back for the killer. It’s a wasted chase, and survivors have few comparable set backs.
- The myriad of second chance perks. DS would have no reason to exist if it isn’t possible for a killer to know where a survivor was that they had recently successfully ended a chase against. It also wouldn’t unfairly punish killers that aren’t actually purposely tunnelling the same survivor. It would simply be unfortunate bad luck if the killer happened to spot the same survivor again, which would likely be incredibly rare if a respawn “station” mechanic existed.
Comments
but what about negative terror radius builds that break monitor abuse, or Myers. There's an awkwardness to teaching people this method because there's no good way to judge your own terror radius all the time. Plus if someone just brings you to the hook in a chase they stall hook too.
I meant have it adjust similar to but not effected by terror radius. So it's a separate measurement not effected by terror reducing effects.
Even so, if someone wants to run a bunch of terror radius reducing things just to camp, they're probably sacrificing more useful things.
Ah yes well you see a new objective would spice up gameplay with not holding m1 constantly and would boost players numbers due to something that isnt hold m1 to do
Greater player interest doesn’t just magically fix core gameplay issues. An additional objective doesn’t fix the things I’ve stated.
replace death hook with mori...
figure out the in betweens.
I'm not really opposed to this idea, but I agree that it's a huge change to the core mechanics of the game -- both in terms of taking people on and off hooks, and in terms of the loose, slippery play style that we all like and hate about DBD.
I admit, one of the things I enjoy about Pyramid Head is that, supposing everyone's tormented, getting a down = getting a hook and no one can mess it up for you. And there's a part of me that's like, "Yeah, that's how it should always be." When I go against Pyramid Head, as survivor, I also always hope to get sent to the cage, because then I know I'm far away from the killer and I'm definitely getting a safe rescue. Also the cage struggle mechanic is better.
From a gameplay POV, I wouldn't mind at all if things somehow changed so that that was the default way of doing things, and I think many of the perks that currently work with hooks could just work with cages instead.
That said, I can think of a few objections that I'd have if I were on the dev team -- the biggest one being that I think they actually want things to go a little wild and crazy when killers are carrying survivors to a hook and/or survivors are trying to get a save. I don't think the game they envision is an orderly process where everyone gets hooked immediately after they go down, and the cycle repeats three times for each person. I think they want opportunities for people to do something risky and daring.
The other big objection is that so much of the game content is built around the idea that being downed is not an automatic hook -- like all of the perks that affect slugging, all of the perks that affect carrying, sabo boxes, flashlight saves -- it's a ton of stuff that they've already put a lot of work into.
I agree that the loose play between the time someone goes down and the time they get saved from the hook often doesn't feel super fair to me, and I think you're right to say it's the source of most of the complaints about the game. I just also feel like what we're identifying is an intentional feature of the game -- a pocket of time where anything can happen no matter how annoying, and even though I think the game might be less aggravating if some of that was removed, I'm not sure it would still be the game the developers wanted to make?
Didn't mean to say that hooks were the reason last year is not as popular as dbd
Just meant that dbd really isn't that bad that it would need a complete overhaul like that
I don't think the majority of the killer cast could keep up with survivors if all the hook mechanics went the way of pyramid head. With gen speeds the way they are, letting survivors unhook for free isn't feasible unless you are significantly more skilled than your opponents or are playing a top tier killer.
A typical rank 1 lobby without any slowdown perks lasts maybe 5-6~ minutes? It is borderline impossible to get 12 hooks in that timeframe with an M1 killer. Being able to defend hooks is a huge source of pressure, and also gives survivors a reason to travel into dead zones you have created. Camping / tunneling / slugging are all basically required to beat good teams with mid-tier and below killers.
The TC mine as well go play a different game. If DBD changes to that level where the core game mechanic is entirely changed, DBD is no longer DBD. I'll stop playing.
While I appreciate new ideas, I'll be mad if the core gameplay changes. I rather be camped and tunneled.
I like how you're thinking about this.
I've never been a part of a community that gripes so much about something they do several hours a day. At least you're thinking about productive solutions to design challenges rather than screaming "unfair" at the other side.
I would say play Deathgarden, but we all know what happened to that...
I agree with you, then.
Sarcasm is hard to portray in text only... : /
The biggest issue with the whole thread, is that OP's examples of "issues" are all things that are corrected simply when a player becomes experienced at the game and know what they are doing. Stop making unsafe saves, take Dead Hard, and/or Borrowed time. Use a flashlight. Take a hit. Bodyblock the killer. Learn the map layouts, and loops. Learn the different kind of structures like TL, Gym, and Shack.
This is a silly argument. Youre saying because Last Year isnt doing as well as dbd in sales no component of it can be better than dbd. So sales = a better game. By this logic Candy Crush is one of the greatest games ever made. COD Ghosts was better than Battlefield 4. No RPG comes close to being as good as Skyrim. Do you need more examples or can you see why this was a silly thing to say. Idk if ops idea is a good one or not, just that your argument is foolish
Yeah i worded my first post very poorly
Just meant there was a game already that had the mechanic op suggested
The second thing was indeed silly to say. It's more my personall opinion rather then fact
"And could be a saving grace for this game"
See this is imo the flaw in your logic. DbD is nowhere near desperate for this kinda overhaul.
It doesn't need a saving grace, it's not even close to dying.
Tunneling and camping are strategies, just like gen rushing. If you want to punish one side for boring behavior you have to do it to the other side as well. Anyway with your points, I only agree with making kindred base kit. Tunneling is already a really bad strategy and your point makes end game while the gates are open virtually unwinable, because they could just unhook them and then they get out Scot free because the killer can't hit them, also that was make perks like bt worthless. What we need to do right now is close the gap between solo and swf, that first change would be a step in the right direction but the rest are just broken with swf and overpowered in solo.
I just think hooks should act like cages. If no one else is around the hooked survivor except for the killer, the hooks respawn elsewhere after so long.
Fair enough fam 😁
And yet you offer no actual criticism. Can you explain why these suggestions don't solve these problems or are you just toxic?
I'm a killer main in favor of buffing solo survivors and nerfing SWF. Yes. Solo survivors I ######### on hard. I seriously can't remember the last time I even lost a game against solos. Against SWF though. This game tips too far into their favor.
And you can't just nerf SWF. You need to buff solos to their level in ways that don't effect SWF. I'm not saying these do that but they do address the problems of camping and tunneling. I'd also say they need to make it so there are 0 I mean literally 0 "safe" pallets on every map. Nerf looping in general, and then increase the number of pallets. Make every pallet mindgameable. Bring back some skill to this game. Give solos more information. Give them a totem counter. Show them where their teammates are. Make kindred base kit. Then buff killers to compensate for all of this.
As a killer main in not sure what changes should be made to killers yet if they did do this. I'd have to play to try and find out.
I'm not sure about removing hooks completely, but I think changing hooks from a per individual basis to a team basis could help. Like the team overall has, just throwing a number, 8-10 hooks and once any combination of survivors has been hooked that many times the entity gobbles them like in EGC.
Tunneling won't kick someone out super early and gen times can be increased or hooks can be reduce to compensate for the fact that all 4 survivors stay alive in every game. It'd also discourage camping since it wont matter how long someone has been on the hook, but how many hooks you get.
You won't really need to change too many hook perks as well, so that's less work to do as well.
Of course Mori's would have to be rewoked, maybe now they have charges depending on the rarity, and they take a survivor out the game until someone else gets downed/hooked, then they respawn. Maybe they keep the animation and it counts as a hook now and the survivor appears on a hook somewhere on the map or something after its done. Anyway you get the idea.
No need to read the whole thing when it starts off this bad.
Then dont go judging it.
I don’t like playing killer anymore because it’s a big chore. I imagine the killer as an angry parent chasing their spoiled brats for children. It’s found it’s way more thrilling being chased, and with randoms. Rather than a team of SWFs that coordinate to the point that the killer is essentially bullied.
The killer being unable to kill survivors unless they have a Mori is completely stupid. The same way you always need a key for the hatch after it’s closed. Stupid. The Mori should allow the killer to kill much sooner, say after first hook. The key is for when you want to get inside with allies or after it’s been shut.
Hooking should be optional at the expense of displeasing the entity. Just allow killers to kill the survivors after being hooked twice. When they would die after being hooked anyway. In exchange they forfeit any points they would’ve gained, and doing it too much depips you.
The hatch should be able to be picked open after it’s been closed, but you have to pass some insane skill checks. Doing so also alerts the killer. The entity will block it for good if you were to fail said skill checks.
Its clear that this game is in its infancy stages based on the Archives. We’re not even half way through the game since we’re at what? The 4th tome? I expect about twice as many killers and survivors IF DBD lives long enough to deliver all those tomes.
You realize you don't have to give a logical critique to every terrible idea that comes along, right? It's not toxic to tell someone that a change they want to make to the game that would fundamentally change it for the worse and just add more ways to abuse it is terrible. Your ideas also require a multitude of perk changes when there's better options out there that change less.
Your first idea was tried just in a slightly different way and abused heavily. The hook timer would pause if the killer was near it for x amount of time. Your idea is just that, but to let gens fly by much faster.
Your second idea is so obviously bad that I'm not gonna take the time to break down why a 200% speed ghost mode is dumb.
It is unbalanced the development team has even made statements about it in previous vids as well as in statements about bug fixes. The fact that they want to balance it means that they intend to improve on it though recently they have made few efforts to improve the balance. If they were to keep the game the same for "the ones that enjoy the game" would be completely financially irresponsible. The new platforms and allowing them to play together has helped the game. But if they didn't intend to improve on the game ie. Change it then they wouldn't get new players and the new players is were the money is. Cosmetics and graphics are top priority atm but if this game wants to be around in 5 years it will need to make balance changes and it will need to get more players. Right now as this game stands I can't reccomend it to friends simply put because of the toxic community among other things. When someone tries to make an honest effort to improve the game instead of hearing and being respectful they out right say "spoken like a survivor when the person who posted just wanted to talk about it but as I scroll through the comments I see no real ideas or help/feedback. This may not of helped you but i hope it did. Please have a good one.
There is a difference between trying to improve the game and completly changing it from the ground up though
you're a survivor main pretending to be impartial...
As long as queue times stay as fast as they are..who cares about facecamping and tunneling...you get another game instantly....the bug problem is the real problem...it has rendered the game more unplayable than a few camping killers ever could....let killers do as they please just as all the entitled survivor mains do as they please. (Survivor main speaking). But ffs fix the game breaking bugs.
I think that might be cool for a more Hide-and-Seek game, but those problems you mentioned also come with some exhilarating gameplay. Unhooking right under the killer's nose and escaping is infinitely more exciting than finding the respawn point and running to the exit.
I can judge a dumb idea to be dumb all I want. K thx bye
the game that behaviour gave up on making had this mechanic of respawns
I think it might be better to have multiple ways to get survivors off of the hook, like if you have the sabotage skill you can Sabo from behind while the person is on the hook, breaking the hook and also getting the survivor down.
I think the best solution would be to create some new game modes with somewhat different rules and let players try them out. The game seriously needs some changes in some areas.
Bruh not if you dont understand the whole thing. I'm not the one whos lookin dumb here
Can you both stop?
It’s a discussion, not a battlefield.
No. It's a discussion. We talk about things here not make friends
The problem with this idea is that sometimes actually going back to the hook is the best thing you can do.
Because many times I have found myself going to each generator and finding no one. Which led me to believe they were playing hide and seek, and when you need the pressure ASAP you can’t afford to not be able to see where you hooked someone.
Also many perks are connected to hooks so they would have to do an overhaul on perks which I don’t see them doing, considering what it takes just to fix one.
Hard disagree chief. Hooks don't need to be stopped or slowed when a killer is nearby. The killer can already get punished for facecamping as long as the survivor team has braincells. Maybe it's just me, but if you run in for an unhook in front of the facecamping Bubba who hasn't left hook, he probably deserves the kill- besides, there are already perks to counter that behaviour- like Camraderie, or BT against a non-instadown killer.
Facecamping sucks, and it's not fun to play against. But as a killer, it's generally not fun to do, and in my experience, is either done out of necessity (such as securing the 1k or the 2k in end game) or just to get challenges done. (And trust me, when you play killer and you feel like you have to camp for the 1k or 2k in end game because you know you played like crap, the end game screen and chat are punishing enough when you already feel like you did terribly.) Granted, there are some people who facecamp on the regular, no matter the reason- but hey, they're probably also the same guys who do flashlight clicks into a DC when they get downed first as Survivor, so whatever.
I think your idea would just be needlessly nerfing killers in a way that is unnecessary, purely to buff solo survivors, and would be way too abuseable by SWFs. If facecamping is a huge issue in your games, start running Kindred and learn to sit on gens while the person sits on hook. Punish the killer by forcing out gens, and if your team wants to play dumb, let them. They can go play hero, while you sit on gens and prepare for a hatch game.
I'm actually a Killer main, I was just continuing the discussion for the most part. You make a lot of really good points, and that was exactly what I was hoping for. Just some discussion.
When I do play Survivor, I don't really encounter camping or tunneling all that often. In fact, I can think of once that I was directly face camped, and I was tunneled earlier today (for five damn generators), but I don't know how often it's actually happening. I don't personally see these two things happening as much as these forums would have you believe.
You're totally fine! I actually primarily play Survivor at Rank 1 with a casual SWF, and honestly, I never really come across very many campers. Usually when I do, the killer is low rank (as I sometimes play with players who are still in their first 100 hours of the game, and barely out of grey ranks, or matchmaker just had a stroke again), or the Killer is just trying to secure a kill in late game. (Which, honestly, doesn't bug me. Let the poor man get a kill.) Heck, I'll even be amoung the first to admit that I see survivors complain about camping when it didn't happen constantly. (As both a killer and survivor.) Honestly, I hate when people go off saying the killer camped them, when in reality their fellow survivor decided to either go for the unhook in front of them, or decided to go unhook mid-chase without BT, or commiting to a 1 for 1- it's just dumb imho.
Tunneling is a weird one though. It definitely happens more often when you have no obsession to punish the killer with a possible DS, but I see it a decent amount when I play in my SWF. We get a fair amount of killers who will just tunnel our newer friends out of the game because, well, they're new and an easy kill. Usually they'll smack a gen with pop, and then come straight back to the unhook- not allowing a BT proc.
Honestly, I might just be lucky, but I don't really think either of these issues are really bad enough to warrant any changes. Neither really happen to me enough for me to care, and they're both easy to counter- especially with all the second chance perks there are right now. It just requires players to know what they’re doing and to play smart.
You hit a very good point with bad unhooking (mid chase especially). Often, it's not the Killers fault they were led back to a hooked survivor. I think what happens with a lot of Survivors that they don't see what they're doing as a misplay, but as bad manners by the Killer. Because very few players seem to want to admit their mistake. That's probably where the majority of the complaints come from.
My main issues come from moris, keys and...oni...