Humanarian
Humanarian
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Perhaps, it has something to do with it also not counting for "Survivor Mori" category of Devout Emblem. Hopefully, that gets fixed.
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And don't forget about the match-making system! It's actually possible for a GREEN-ranked Killer to be matched against FULL RED RANKS 4SWF!!! That makes the experience terrible for everybody.
The Survivors players have no fan because with their effeciency and skill gap because there's practically no Killer on the map.
The Killer player has no fan because they stand absolutely zero chance against such skillful and gen-effecient Survivors who have the "legal cheat" of being on comms.
THIS IS NOT OKAY!
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It does feel that way when the player only starts playing The Executioner. The real question is: will it remain the same after 100+ games? I am yet to find the answer.
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@gofu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1359248#Comment_1359248
This would make life 10x easier not sure if they'll wanna add it tho idk, but I easily agree with this nobody should be forced to mow through a ######### ton of useless perks like monstrous shrine / zanshini tactics etc...
That's especially important to the Killer characters who heavily depend on certain Perks. For example, Deathslinger is stronger with Save The Best For Last, Spirit needs Stridor and Legion is much more effective with Thanatophobia. And those are just a few examples. But it's not just about viability. It's also about having fun trying different builds, which has become way too tedious with the current Blood Web system, especially so for the casual players who cannot invest an infinite amount of hours into the game and count every Blood Point they can get.
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When it comes to the Perks, I honestly think the better solution would be removing them from the Blood Web entirely and putting them in a separate section of the in-game store where a player could spend Blood Points to buy and update the Perks they actually want instead of having to suffer through getting tons of random Perks in the Blood Web they will never even use.
I know why the same thing canNOT be applied to Add-Ons and Offerings. Because if it would be, then everyone would just spam Iridescent things. But I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't be applied to the Perks.
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@Rattman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1359012#Comment_1359012
First, emblem requirements are same for all ranks. By that I mean, for example, that gold devout is same on 1 and 20 ranks. But progression for pip - different thing. For example, 2 pip on red ranks is 4 iri medals, but on purple ranks 3 iri and 1 gold is enough.
Second, malicious and chaser emblems also exist. It would not be enough for pip, if you slug all four survs and kill them on 1st hook. Also, you not gonna get iri devout unless you hook 9 times.
Last, low ranks camp because they are noobs, not for emblems, lmao.
Because they are noobs and because the game makes it hard for the new players to understand how it's supposed to be played. And the fact Devout emblem requirements the way they are now doesn't help it. Anyways, I do thank you for clarifying it for me. I need to do better next time. Though doing better does require having certain Perks, which can take forever to get in a Blood Web, but that's a completely different matter.
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The Executioner is really strong against the loops. However, he's not strong at all once a Survivor gains enough distance away from him. I have already offered what I believe to be a nice Perk combo against that particular Killer: Lithe, Dance With Me, Quick and Quiet, Iron Will. The main idea here is to fool the Killer player into believing that you're looping them around, for example, a jungle gym, then lose the line of sight and go through the window, using those 3 Perks to get as far away from the loop as possible while the Killer player would waste time getting over the confusion you have caused. This strategy might allow you to get away and not get downed in the first place. And if you execute it correctly, The Executioner will not have enough time to put the Rites of Judgement around the loop, so you won't get afflicted with Torment.
Aside from that, I believe that the best macro counter play against The Executioner is spreading out as far away from each other as possible and rush those gens. Not only will that strategy abuse the Killer's weakness (which is the lack of mobility and, therefore, the low gen pressure), but it will also tremendously rise the chances of having your caged teammate spawning next to you, or having yourself spawn in the cage next to your teammate, which will result in an insta-save. And the possibility of the insta-save is exactly what is traded for the possibility of tunneling by the devs, I believe.
I'm a Purple Rank killer myself and don't play the game much (which is exactly why I haven't made it to the Red Ranks yet, I believe), but I have quite some knowledge from watching tons of videos of the great DbD player like Otzdarva, TrU3ta1ent and Monto. So, I have played The Executioner all evening yesterday and let's just say that I haven't pipped even once (because I can't be good with the new character right away, obviously). The best I could get was Brutal Killer. That's because this Killer requires quite some experience and getting used to. And, unfortunatelly, the game STILL has no training tool. So I had to use a looping Survivor as my practice in one of the games, completely forgetting about the gens and just looping that person for like 5 minutes simply trying to get used to Punishment of the Damned. It might be hard to play against The Executioner, but it isn't easy to play as him either.
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@Rattman said:
You given 20% for devout by kiling survivor by any means. 10% if you hooked every survivor atleast once. This should work for cages too. Another 10% if you managed to do 9 hooks/cages. For gold emblem you need 80%.
Btw, emblem requirements don't tied to rank.
You killed 3 survs. 8 hooks in total. Even if you managed to hook/cage everyone once, it's not enough for gold.
As far as I am able to notice, the Color of Rank defines how many emblem points the player needs to rank up. I didn't really do the math, but it just felt different. I'm sure if I had a similar game with Freddy on Rank 10, I would have piped. But I see now what had me confused there. It's 60% for 3 Sacrifices, and the game doesn't care if those sacrifices were on the 3rd or 1st hook/cage. The only difference here is the amount of Blood Points in Sacrifice category, which does nothing for ranking up. I see...
That raises a concern... because such progression terms for that particular emblem encourages camping. Killing everyone on the 1st hook (by sluggling all 4 of them, for example) would ensure the Gold quality of that emblem... I didn't know that. Now I can understand why the low rank Killers tend to camp so much.
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@xTalon32 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1202231#Comment_1202231
So, while I agree with you that balancing it to the highest level of play means you simply need to improve, it has one major problem I can think of.
In any competitive game, the people who actually play at the highest level are FAR less than below it. If DBD was entirely based on skill this wouldn't be an issue - games like Rocket League showcase this well. The average player is leaps and bounds below the highest level of play, but what separates them is only skill. So anyone can get there with and effort. If you had perks and addons in Rocket League that balance would shatter. Because it's not just about skill at that point, you have "Meta builds".
If we balance DBD to the highest level of play, it wouldn't be about skill only. Since perks and addons have a massive effect on HOW you play. Just because a game can be balanced at the highest levels doesn't guarantee that it will be at the average level.
Again, I don't disagree with you. But there are some issues that can't be remedied with "learn to play".
I disagree with that argument. Every competitive game has a meta. Take MOBA genre for example - characters keep changing Tiers with every patch, different items you can buy during the match constantly become more or less relevant... But these game do have the balance in them still, even in that balance changes from Season to Season. The same could be happening to Perks in DbD. Buff a useless Perk significantly or rework it completely - and people start using it instead of some other one that was meta. The tricks is to keep various builds balanced and viable at the same time, allowing people to experiment and find them instead of being bound to just one due to it being the most effective.
And it's about time Survivors start to actually learn things instead of getting their free wins while T-bagging and clicking flashlights rapidly to show how cool they are (not).
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@xTalon32 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1202172#Comment_1202172
Okay, but consider not everyone has a mic and not everyone will use it.
If you balance the killer to 4SWF with that in mind, I have a feeling people will get mad and say it's unfair for killers to be so strong if a survivor chooses not to use their mic.
Would that just be "Too bad" or should there be a system in place for something like that?
There are the games where mic is a must have. However, adding a text chat for Survivors is also an option. Besides, even if one Survivor doesn't want to talk, they will still hear what the others talk about and can adjust their actions accordingly.
They may say whatever they want, but every competitive game should be ballanced around the highest skill play only. That means ballancing the game to be fair in a case of the best possible Survivors players playing versus the best possible Killer player. Anything less skilled that would seem unballanced would be a simple matter of "learn to play", because the game gives everything one would need to be effective. That way both sides would have equal chances of winning, and the outcome will come down to their personal skill in case of a Killer and their ability to work in a team as Survivors. No side should have any favours. And if somebody refuses to play in a team, they should get reported and punished by the game (time out, low priority, Honour system, there are many ways to do that).
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@xTalon32 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1199973#Comment_1199973
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1200849#Comment_1200849
So, if we can't balance 4SWF to the level of solo, do either of you have ideas for how to balance Solo + Killers with 4SWF?
And just want to say thanks to you both for having constructive criticism and we can have a good conversation on this :D
In all honesty, the idea is rather simple - give all Survivors an access to an unlimited voice chat, starting with the lobby while waiting for the game to start. Then base the whole game around the fact that every party of Survivors has become an SWF.
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@Milo said:
- Get really close to them before swinging. "Autoaim" should hit them that way.
- Expect which way they will try to spin in.
The problem with that is due to the game's absolutely awful FoV I lose them from my sight entirely when I get too close to them and they start to 360 dodge. I end up having to step back just to get them in my FoV again.
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@Peace said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1200889#Comment_1200889
To the point "how would that make any difference? I always have to assume the worst"
Dont make the survs bigger than they are, often there are 1-2 very skilled players and at least 1 survivor that doesnt put up a huge fight. Often the good loopers will try to gain your attention over and over again. Sometimes they get overconfident so you can land a hit on them or maybe down them.
And if you are chasing a weaker one and another one follows you, that makes 2 survs not working on gens. So dropping a chase can oftenly benefit you more than holding onto it. :)
The reason I was chasing that exact Survivor was because I found and scared them away from the gen, not because they were trying to do something to get my attention on purpose. I am always vary of the clickers and only go for a hit on them when they are out of position. And sometimes it doesn't take an insanely strong looper to abuse the un-mindgamable loops.
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@Rezblaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/141531/need-advice-how-to-deal-with-this
The only way I can see four gens being completed in three minutes is if each of the four survivors did one gen, and you just never caught them.
Its possible that while you were patrolling gens, they kept sneaking around you and throwing you off. It just means you were outplayed, or you were very bad at productively keeping generators from getting done. As a killer that can teleport (With some setup) I am assuming that it was the former that happened, because you can pretty much teleport to any generator.
No, I was in a constant long chase with one Survivor who had a few un-mindgamable loops with good pallets spawn next to each other. 3 others were constantly on gens.
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@JnnsMu said:
Here are my tips for creating pressure:
At least consider letting people go. I know it feels like a loss but they won't be back on a gen immediately after you stop chasing them so you don't lose as much pressure as you might think. After all, no amount of killer skill is enough to outplay a good survivor in a strong setup.
If you find yourself not being able to down a survivor, you shouldn't chase them. Instead, let them go (ideally after they've lost vision of you so they take more time to realize that you're not chasing them anymore) and look for one of two things:
- A survivor in a bad spot: There will be spots on the map that favor you and there are usually a few generators in those spots so just remember which they are and check there first.
- An unexperienced survivor: Matchmaking is very uneven in this game. If you find that one particular survivor isn't moving efficiently, kill them as quickly as possible. They can do generators just as well as experienced players but they won't put up as much of a fight in chases.
Once you get a hook, don't just go to the other side of the map. I don't recommend heavy camping since survivors can easily counter that strategy by doing generators. However, hooks are an objective and no matter what salty survivors say, you should treat them accordingly. If you don't find anyone on the rest of the map or you see sprint marks leading to the hook, it's totally justified to go back to it so that you're there more quickly once the survivors unhook.
If you down someone and you see another survivor that you can down or just injure quickly, slug.
And my most important piece of advise: Stay calm. I can't tell you how many games I've had in which I had a bad start but completely took over the game off of one play. As long as you keep up a positive attitude you can often squeeze a few kills out of one survivor messing up or even just being cocky.
Thank you for your advice!
I don't think there was an incompetent Survivor in that exact game though, since they were 4 Red Rank SWF. I also have no problem with returning to the hook shortly after if I see a good reason to do so. Also no problem with slugging, especially after an unhook without Borrowed. I slug the person with the potential DS and go for the one who saved them. That promts another person to come pick up the fallen one. After all, I watch a lot of Tru3ta1ent's, Otzdarva's and Monto's videos, so I try to mimic they decision making and playstyle, it just doesn't always go well for me, because, obviously, I'm not on the same skill level.
In that exact match, however, I couldn't apply any of those strategies because all I was able to achieve is one hit and nothing more. Probably I should have made a set up of a nice 3-gen and aim to protect it from the very start, but how was I supposed to know what kind of Survivors I was up against?
As for staying calm, I usually do that. As I mentioned in the opening post, that was my first time rage-quitting, and I've been ranking up all the way from the grey this DBD month. Mostly by playing Freddy (just because I happen to have BBQ Tier 3 on him and don't need to bring any add-ons, so I'm using him to farm BPs, which is never enough in this game).
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1200906#Comment_1200906
Yeah, you need to break most of the Pallets on Blood Lodge. This Map is very difficult for Killers, because if the middle spawns with a lot of Pallets, they all need to be broken, because the Loops are strong enough to play them and the Survivor can look over it. Sure, it is possible to get a Hit, but the Survivor needs to do (quite a big) mistake to allow that.
Could have also been a Rank Disparity, no offense, but Rank 7 is not far away from Green Ranks, and if you went against Red Ranks (which is likely, since the MM is wonky lately), they might be actually good Survivors. Or you got unlucky and found the one person who can loop.
In a case where you cannot catch a Survivor and you think it is unlikely to get them, you should try to find another Survivor. Not everyone is good at Looping and maybe you will find a weak link where you can capitalize on. Being stubborn in one chase is most of the time the reason a Killer might lose the game.
Of course they were the good Survivors and obviously on comms. However, when it comes to these exact loops, I doubt it takes an unusual skill level as a Survivor in order not to make a mistake. It's not like the Survivor I chased pulled something crazy like disappearing into a thin air by using Dance with me or something like that. No, they just ran from one loop with a pallet to another while watching me closely so I don't change my moving direction without getting a response from them. And since those loops are full of twist and turns, I didn't get a chance to use Shred.
But I'm not pretending to know all there is to know about playing a Killer, that's the reason I have created this discussion. And I'm really glad it's no longer dead and I'm getting some good advice.
I've come up with a build that could be a possible solution to the looping problem on my Demogorgon, which involves Spirit Fury + Enduring combo, but unfortunatelly that's not going to happen soon, because I need to level up Billy for that and then pray to Entity for finding those perks in the Blood web. (Seriously, I've refreshed lvl 50 Bloodweb on my Demogorgon like 20+ times and only got Spirit Fury Tier 1, despite having it unlocked before beginning to level up Demogorgon at all. It's such a pathetic system!)
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@Aven_Fallen said:
With that little information there is not much to do. You had no pressure when 3 people were free to do Gens, this is correct. Pressure comes with the first Down, because this forces Survivors into altruistic actions. Ideally you have a situation where you have 1 person on the hook, 1 going for the save and 1 in a chase, meaning only 1 person is doing Gens.
Some information - which Map? Because it might indeed be possible that you made some mistakes, with more information (best case a recording, this is true), it is easier to analyze it. Maybe you have broken Pallets which were mindgameable, allowing the Survivor to gain distance. Or chased too long around Pallets without breaking them.
I think not breaking the pallets immediately could be a mistake I've made. I was trying to mindgame the un-mindgamable, hoping for the lack of a good reaction time from a Survivor.
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@Kind_Lemon said:
The second most important thing to know about chasing survivors as a killer is in what health states are other survivors and where they are. That allows you to identify how many other survivors are working on gens and if survivors are taking time to heal. If they are, where have they been for the past 16 seconds. Was it an unusually fast heal with no medkits in any hands? Check suspicious lockers for Inner Strength users.
The most important things as a killer to know about a chase should be known before the chase even starts. It's the answers to this set of questions:
- Where is the survivor in relation to me and how quickly can I reach him/her if there are no pallets or windows in the way?
- Where is the survivor in relation to locations in this map that can extend a chase? Is the survivor close or far off from these structures?
- How skilled has this survivor appeared to be in prior chases?
- (and perhaps most critical in your situation) Am I chasing a survivor around completed generators, unfinished generators, or neither?
I'll just talk about this last point. If a survivor leads you on a chase around completed generators (the worst scenario), no survivors are being interrupted from doing generators, resources such as pallets are being lost that don't matter, and the survivors lose any fear that might have been in your favor. You always want to have chases around 1. Hooked survivors 2. Generators undergoing repairs and 3. Areas with pallets that survivors must return to at a later point in a match.
If you don't pay attention to item 4 on the list above, you're guaranteed to have lost the game as long as the survivors aren't stupidly altruistic.
You provide some really good advice and I sincerely thank you for that.
The problem is that it wasn't really applicable in that exact game. Let me start explaining with paragraph 4. The Survivor was not being chased and could not be chased by me around the finished gens because the chase started with 0 gens done then 3 of them had been finished in roughly the same time, maybe 10 seconds in between. As for the health states, I was able to land only 1 hit in that entire game simply because of a Survivor abusing a few pallets on the un-mindgamable loops (jungle gym and a few without the walls at all) that spawned really close to each other. I had no chance of seeing that prior to getting into a chase because I haven't visited that side of map earlier. That also goes against paragraph 1. I couldn't possibly know how bad the chase was going to be before it happened.
The obvious question: why haven't I just let them go and changed targets? And my answer is: how would that make any difference? I always have to assume the worst, which means I have to assume that the rest of Survivors are just as good at the loops. Especially those un-mindgamable loops which require a mistake from a Survivor, not a skill from a Killer. So it would be 3 on the gens and 1 in a chase all over again, except for me having to waste even more time finding a new target. That's why I was desparately trying to finish the chase, but when the 4th gen had been finished, I just couldn't take it anymore.
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@xTalon32 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1199921#Comment_1199921
Good question, and I'll try to explain so you understand the idea.
In game voice chat - Optional for solo players with a "Push to Talk" button. ****Mandatory for any SWF with NO "Push to Talk" option.**
So specifically the part with SWF. If you want to play SWF, you have no choice but to have voice chat enabled ingame. And push to talk isn't an option. Noise in your microphone triggers the voice chat radius without exception. If you don't wish for this to be the case, you can play solo.
This is a bit drastic, but balancing the game to the level of SWF goes against the core concept the game was built on. Four random strangers working together with minimal communication to survive. The entity obviously didn't throw them into the map with comms.
However, lets say we balance the game to 4SWF vs 1 Killer. Every killer would need an EXTREME tracking buff, while some killers would become completely unplayable. There are killers now that work very well with 4SWF - Hillbilly, Nurse and if I'm not mistaken Oni. All of them can have immense map pressure, which is what you need against 4SWF. Others that can't traverse the map quickly need major tracking buffs to match the amount 4SWF can track the killer.
Point is, you CAN balance it either way, but when trying to balance the game for 4SWF vs 1 Killer, it is a VERY DEEP rabbit hole. I hope this kinda makes more sense, but like I said in my first post I'm sure there are issues with my suggestion. But quite frankly, it would be easier to bring 4SWF down to the level of solo than it would be to bring Solo + KIller to the level of SWF. There would be far less complications that way.
This is a bit drastic, but balancing the game to the level of SWF goes against the core concept the game was built on. Four random strangers working together with minimal communication to survive.
The problem with that concept is that it's extremely flawed. No one can phohibid 4SWF from using Discord or any other means of communication. Not even your way would stop it. I believe, they would either just deal with the double voice when close to each other or find some means of blocking their mic device from the game so it doesn't see any mic on their machine. So, it's always going to be 3 Survivors on gens and 1 in a chase because:
1) they always know when and where the chase is going on,
2) many maps are full of the completely un-mindgamable loops where the only way for a Killer to get a hit would be a mistake from a Survivor's side.
Then they will blame Killer for not pressuing the gens enough, as if the Killer can be everywhere at once. Letting one Survivor go and then going for another would only waste more time because they would need to be found first and then it would be 3 gens 1 chase all over again.
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I do not understand your idea. How is any of the methods you have proposed would stop SWF groups from talking on Discord and completely neglect the "voice chat radius"? The problem here lies in the mere fact that the devs should have added the voice chat for Survivors from the beginning and ballance the game to be fair for 4SWF vs Killer, not for 4 randoms vs Killer. Because that's how the game is ballanced now. It's only a fair game when it's 4 random Survivors. But as soon as there is SWF and communication - the ballance is gone.
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1) Every generator is 1/5 of the Survivors' main objective.
2) Every hook is 1/9 of the Killer\s main objective.
3) Gens aren't running away.
Enough said.
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@Pigforever said:
Kinda justs sounds like you got destroyed and then rage quit.
A Killer getting destroyed in the game designed for destroying Killers? Big surprise.
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@BeHasU said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1199214#Comment_1199214
I'm always recording my games, i'm not a streamer, i'm not a youtuber. In case of anything i'll have the recording for a report or a cool play that i made.
Sorry, but I have neither enough memory on my drive, nor a PC good enough to record without causing any small freezes occasionally. And, as I mentioned above, I am not interested in advice on micro, for which the recording would actually be needed. I'm interested in a macro advice.
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@Fibijean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1199062#Comment_1199062
Well, you're not giving people a lot to go on. If you had a recording of your gameplay or something, it might be easier to point out what you did wrong, but if you just say "4 gens got done within the first 2-3 minutes and I never got a single down even though I was always in a chase", that could mean just about anything. There are so many variables there that could be affecting how that game turned out that it's nearly impossible to give you any advice that's specific enough to be useful. The best I can do from that information is say that it sounds like Cheers was right, and you spent too long focused on the one chase against a survivor who was too good for you, allowing the others free reign to do whatever they wanted (generators).
Also, implying that the other members of the forum owe you advice and are selfish for not giving any is rather rude, and not likely to make people feel more inclined to take time out of their day to help you.
How am I supposed to have a recording when I'm not a streamer? Is there even anyone who just randomly records their gameplay? No, I don't think so.
What I ask for is a strategic advice, not something regarding my micro/mechanics/mind-games. What happened in the game is that I chased one survivor who got really lucky with the loops, running into a new pallet every time before there was a chance to catch up to them, because those pallets spawned rather close. The most obvious advice I've been getting is to stop chasing that one person and switch to another, but I just don't understand what that would even change. It would still be 1 Survivor in a chase and 3 on gens, except for me having to waste even more time actually finding another person.
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It's really... REALLY disppointing that on this forum nobody can give a solid advice on a problem like this. It's as if everyone who plays a Killer well want to keep that kind of information to themselves.
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@CasualGamer21 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1168394#Comment_1168394
Tell me about it dude.. If I wanted, I could have easily continued the match and I guess escaped EZ since well, can't kill a hacker easily.
What really got to me was that he was teabagging the killer and then disappearing as if that's something to gloat about. Plenty of toxicity already, it's about time us players actually did something about it.
Achievement Unlocked: "A new level of pathetic" (While playing as a Survivor, turn on at least 1 hack and teabag a Killer repeatedly throughout the match).
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I am honestly surprised no one wants to discuss this. Why? Those things seem to be a major unfun experience in the matches.
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The thing is... we shouldn't even be forced to report such players. The game should have a way of automatically detecting such things and suspend those players' account until the Support team looks into it and makes a decision if it's a false alarm or not. There must be a much better control over the situations like the one you have experienced. And yet... It appears to be one of many things the developers fail at.
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I entirely fail to understand the whole idea behind prestige versions of the characters. What does it even do? Makes them look covered in blood? That's it? And for that I would need to throw away all the Perks, Add-Ons, Offerings and basically start leveling them up from scratch? To say that it's not worth it for me would be an understatement.
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@kaylawake said:
His hit area is too large. He can shoot from too far away and the area he can hit is too large. I can be on the left side of him and he can hit me with his basic attack while he is facing right and vice versa. Essentially he has the same hit area as leatherface when he uses his power (180 degree area).
You haven't mentioned if you tried landing his shots yourself. Especially from afar. Let's just say... If Deathslinger hits you with his harpoon from the max range, he's more than 100% deserving of getting a hit on you after reeling you in.
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What is your highest Rank and the game knowledge again...? Because the fact of you complaining about a Low Tier Killer with 110% base movement speed and the slow-working power (reeling) suggest that you still have a lot to learn.
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@andyollolloll said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1167577#Comment_1167577
They obviously have changed matchmaking again (without publishing anything in patch notes).
As a survivor it goes from waiting excessively for a match to waiting for rainbow coloured ranked survivors, no wonder BHVR are trying to hide ranks when they don't fix the issue of mainly the killer being unbalanced and unfun to play.
The problem seems only to be growing as the time passes... That's very unfortunate.
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@AnnoyedAtTheGame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1167426#Comment_1167426
I think they will ignore it for as long as they can. I don't see them fixing the problem at all.
Well, if they ignore it when it escalates so far... Then they would be forced to shut down the servers and lose their game. As simple as that.
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@XRuecian said:
Genspeed in general isn't the problem, its usually the speed that the first generator pops that is the problem. Because this first generator can be done so quickly, there are only a few killers you can use to properly even put pressure on it. Especially on some maps more than others. I never played killer before Ruin was nerfed, so i never really got used to what that was like. But coming in now, there are times when i enter a game, and depending on what killer i am playing, i will only have enough time to check one generator out of a possible three that they might have spawned on, and if i choose wrong, they get a free generator without any counterplay, it was like rolling the dice. And if you are playing trapper, well, you basically give them a free generator regardless of where they spawn. Since this game is heavily momentum based on both sides, if you give them a generator for free, then the only way to catch back up and have a chance is often to start playing dirty and rely on slugging or things like NOED.
Also Bond is nowhere near a good enough perk to compare to SWFs information sharing ability, even if you made it mapwide. Even if every survivor got bond for free, it wouldn't even be CLOSE to how much information advantage a SWF group will have. Bond will not tell you which generator is closest to being finished when one of your teammates had to leave it and now you are looking for one to complete. Bond will not tell you where the killer is, which a SWF can easily do anytime one of them sees you. Bond will not tell your teammates which pallets are used up so they don't accidentally run to a deadzone during a chase. Bond doesn't tell you which of your teammates has DS, Unbreakable, or Borrowed time so that you can use them to their maximum potential strategically. Bond doesn't alert the rest of the team that the killer is running a specific perk when you notice it being used so that they can play around it more tactfully. I could probably keep going, these little bits of information stack up and the advantage becomes enormous. It is basically second to having wallhacks while stream sniping the killer.
As for 'survivors have broken stuff' I don't think anyone can argue that Keys aren't good for the game in their current state. Moris either, to be fair.
Second chance perks have a place in this game, and they do help against tunneling and camping, at least a little. However, It's not that DS shouldn't be in the game, it just shouldn't be used as an offensive tool instead of a defensive one. They need to take out its offensive capabilities. When someone gets unhooked right in my face, and then jumps on a generator right beside the hook because they know they have DS, that is NOT using DS to counter tunneling. Now the killer is forced to either give up the generator for free, or waste time getting DSed. And a smart survivor won't even let you slug them to counter this, they will just run into a locker to force you to pick them up.
If you don't think some of the totem spawns are total bullshit, then you obviously have never used hex perks. There are many games where your hexed totem will just spawn right up on top of the hill RIGHT BESIDE where the 4 survivors spawn so they can all see it within the first 3 seconds of the game. When your hex totem is broken, you are literally down to 3 perks now. You have to finish the game with 3 perks. Do i think these powerful hex perks should have risk associated? Of course. But it should at least require the survivors to look for it, not spawn out in the open without them even having to try. Taking a hex perk right now is like a 50/50 chance whether it will last more than 60 seconds into the game.
Some of the maps are pretty annoying for killers, but its really only some of the coldwind farms layouts that takes the cake. It just has an unlimited amount of space and pallets as well as well zero visibility and a building that can be looped forever.
Anyways, these are just replies to what you said.
If i had to give my opinions on the real problems that are affecting killers in order of priority, i would say...
1st is Matchmaking - the fact that killers are having to go up against teams many ranks higher than them is amplifying all of the other problems, this should be priority number one to fix.
2nd is Killer Power Disparity. - There are several killers who lack enough pressure to even have a real chance. Trapper is forced to spend the first minute of the match findind, picking up and setting traps that may or may not even be stepped on and are fully countered by map users. And even if they are stepped on, there is a fair chance that the survivor will escape it within 4 seconds before you can even walk around a wall. His killer power is a mixture slowing himself down while hoping the survivors mess up and then rolling dice. Other less mobile killers have a chance that they wont even get to the first generator before it gets finished, instantly putting them into a dire situation that is very difficult to recover from. The entire game is balanced around speed, and the way that killers slow down survivors (aka play the game) is to apply pressure. There are just a lot of killers right now that do not have the capability to apply adequate pressure and must play the game at a disadvantage. More killers need to have their kits closer in line to Ghostface, Huntress or Oni. Oni has a good balanced kit. There are times when he is average, and times when he is very dangerous, allowing him to apply pressure when he needs to at a critical time. This gives him the ability to make plays, rather than just rely on randomly stumbling across survivors and hoping you down them fast enough to matter. Then you look at a killer like wraith or legion, who might run up to a generator with 3 or 4 people on it at lightspeed. He can hit them, they will run, but he has no way at all of actually pressuring that generator. He can chase one guy, and the others will just finish the generator right away. Yet if they tried to come back to that generator right away against an Oni, Ghostface, or Huntress, they risk all getting downed one after another because these killers actually have enough potential to apply pressure where needed.
3rd is Uncounterable uses of second chance perks. - For the most part, i think Unbreakable is fine, i think borrowed time is fine, and with just a couple of tweaks to make DS un-abusable, it also will be fine. But i do find that putting all three of these perks together on all 4 survivors adds up to too many second chances that makes it extremely extremely difficult for a killer to deal with. ESPECIALLY end game. There is absolutely nothing a killer can do, no matter how well he plays endgame, if he manages to down one person, and they have unbreakable, DS, and borrowed time, they are getting away for free. I think second chance perks should be simply disabled once the end game collapse starts. You shouldn't be able to unhook someone, and then have them be protected by an invincibility shield of Borrowed Time free hit, DS and Unbreakable; leaving the killer with 0 chance of fighting back. Once the endgame starts, these perks put together change from 'second chance' perks to 'free escape' perks.
4th would be Keys and Moris. - I haven't personally had too many issues with people using keys. And i don't ever use Moris. But it is still pretty annoying when the game ends at halftime and then you derank because of it. Feels pretty wrong, should be fixed somehow. Keys probably should have a time required to unlock a hatch rather than be near instantaneous, to at least give the killer a chance to stop it. Mori's should only be usable on people who would die on hook anyways, regardless of which mori offering you bring.
As for SWF groups, i can't really put these into the list properly. I don't think removing SWFs from the game would be a good idea, it's fun to play games with your friends, and that should be an option, period. But they probably should find a way to bring the capabilities of solo players and SWF groups closer together, so that regardless if a killer is going up against a SWF or not, it wouldn't feel so drastically different. They have stated that they want to bring solo players information sharing/gathering abilities up to be more in line with SWF groups, that way its more or less the same regardless. And then they were going to buff some killers to be able to stay on par with those changes. We will see if that is what happens, and if they do it right or not...
While we're on topic of SWF groups, I believe, it would be worth mentioning that full 4-people SWF groups can apply some advanced strategies like having 1 Survivor with "Object of Obsession" Perk and call out everything that Killer does. That simply destroys Stealth-based Killers, unless they have brought a way of applying a Blindness status effect on that Survivor.
I like your idea of disabling the Perks at the Endgame Collapse. The problem is that, if I understand correctly, the game definition of the Endgame Collapse is when the timer starts, be that either by opening the Exit Gates or by closing the Hatch. And that's where the problem of 99-ing the Exit Games comes into play. In my opinion, the timer should start at the very moment the last gen is finished, so Survivors wouldn't have an option of fooling around for an unspecified amount of time, then getting away for free.
As for the Keys and Mori's, I'd recommend to read my previous post, where I've suggested what I believe to be a solid method of ballancing them. I probably should start a separate discussion for that idea.
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@AnnoyedAtTheGame said:
My last experience was
I downed a player and was trying to take them to the hook. I had 3 people stood in my way and not being able to take them to the hook. For some reason I couldn't drop the survivor to go and down the rest of the players and instead the survivor wriggles free and all 4 players was gone by time my killer came out of stun.
It wasn't fun at all. 4 gennys was gone by time I had hooked one player at this point I was fuming. So yano what I did. Held down my PS button and closed application on the game. I took the penalty for DC'ing.
SWF ruining the game once again. Pro players being matched against a noob killed.
BTW. I got took all the way around the map by the 1 survivor, who knew every pallet drop going, round and around I went the map. Finally hit them. All of a sudden after catching back up to try and down them, his mate comes along to try and get me to go after them instead.
Not an enjoyable experience at all.
And do you know why Red Ranked Survivors get matched vs Low Rank Killers nowadays? Because a lot of Purple-Red Rank Killers have had enough and simply left the game. The problem of not having enough Killer players is finally starting to get real, and I am honestly licking my lips in anticipation of the search time for the Survivors to get absurdly high. So high that BHVR would be no longer able to outright ignore the balance problem of their game.
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@KerJuice said:
Just watched a Tru3 Talent vid last night with him running an insane speed Wraith build and he couldn't keep up with a very good SWF. He even stated there's nothing you can really do against them. They all had dead hard (as they should), and decisive strike. They mostly looped properly as well. He was flying through the map applying crazy pressure on gens, getting hooks, and it still wasn't enough. He only got two kills because someone went AFK and the other let Tru3 kill them.
and the other let Tru3 kill them.
By "dancing" at the Exit Gates for one second too long.
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@chenais said:
Right now, they are quite a few mad killers out there. Since the ruin nerf, there have been a lot of complaining: which are legitimate and which are not?
The first thing I saw is: gen rushing. Killers want to reduce generator speed. While it is true that in some cases, gen speed is unstoppable, it is mostly due to swf and crutch chase stuff that makes it way to hard to catch survivors. Gen rushing is the symptom of the issues I mentioned above, not a problem by itself.
I also saw quite a lot of killers complain about swf. To decide how bad they are, I decided to compare the communication advantage to perks. The perk I will compare it with is: bond. Since there is no distance limit for communication, I will assume a distance twice as big as bond (64 meters) is similar. This is why I assume swf have the perk bond twice. The second factor is the fraction of your team you can communicate with: if you can communicate with only one teammate, then the "bond" would only have 1/3 of its efficiency. Lastly, the number of people who are in the swf determinates the final number of perks. So basically: 2 x fraction of teamates you can see x number of swf members.
1 group of 2 man swf = 2 x 1/3 x 2= 1+1/3, which would be closer to 1 perk added for all players than 2 perks added for all players. +1 perk in total, balanced.
2 groups of 2 man swf = 2 x 1/3 x 4= 2 + 2/3 perks, which is closer to 3 perks added in total than 2, so +3 perks, starting to be slightly op.
3 man swf = 2 x 2/3 x 3 = 4 perks, which is +1 perk for each player. This is not really balanced.
4 man swf = 2 x 3/3 x 4= 8 perks, which is +2 perks per player! If you say that +2 perks per player is balanced, then your trolling.
So in the end, 4 man swf is a legitimate complain and 2 groups of 2 man swf / 3 man swf could take slight nerfs. Maybe give 1 additionnal perk to the killer for those and 2 perks for 4 man swf.
Then, they are the "survivors have broken stuff" complain. Killers complain about keys, and second chance perks (exhaustion perks, decisive, borrowed time and unbreakable). It is true that keys and exhaustion perks are pretty crutch: a second chance for the survivor that failed to repair generators / go threw the exit without the killer having much counter-play is stupid. Also, exhaustion perks give survivors a second chance in a chase where they messed up and played badly without the killer being able to counter. However, ds, unbreakable and bt are fine / necessary. Like sweaty killers that facecamp, tunnel and slug you into oblivion is pretty ridiculous and those things are necessary tools to counter them. Also, adrenaline is situationnal and sprint burst has a downside, so those perks are fine.
Lastly, there is the "bad map designs" complain. It is true that god windows that have no counter play are stupid, because they take no skill and force the killer to leave the chase. Also, to many good loops spawning close to each other = infinite. However, the "totem placements suck" and "maps are to big" are just killers wanting their 4k. For the totems, they give a huge advantage if you can keep them: I have got use out of them a lot of time. Perks should not just be "easy 4k" stuff. Also, big maps can be dealt with by a lot of speed killer, and more often than not, a gen rush due to a to big map is due to crutches or swf.
In conclusion, it is true that killers have quite a few crappy things to deal with, but they tend to make it look bigger than it is truly. And you, what do you think are legitimate killer complains?
A good topic to discuss and a really good analisys. I sincirely thank you for being cold-blooded, logical and fair in your approach. Dealing with such things must be based on facts, not emotions. And that's exactly what you've been reviewing: the facts.
You see, the thing about SWF is... Well, the way the game is designed, it's not Survivor vs Killer, it's the Team of Survivors vs Killer. And SWF is able to realize the team's potential to the fullest due to communicating with each other and trusting each other, something that 4 random Survivors would struggle to do, to say the least. But as SWF clearly shows us, the way the game is currently ballanced, the team of Survivors have a much bigger potential than many Killers, and that all comes down mostly to how much the team is able to push the gen speed by using all of the Perks and Add-Ons capable of doing so. The result is... well, it's so ridiculous that I, as a Killer main, would deffinitely agree to have all of my game-slowing Perks and Add-Ons completely removed in exchange for the Survivors losing every gen-speeding Perks and Items. So, yes, I believe that despite SWF, the problem still lies in the gen speed, more precisely in the mere fact that there is a possibility of rising it so ridiculously high.
You are also completely on-point with your opinion on the complaints about the exhaustion Perks and Keys. Some exhaustion Perks give the Survivors a rather cheesy way out of the situation that is completely their fault to being with. It's not a good play, it's just a free "indulgence". And that especially hurts if they use it in the situation when they are 100% outplayed by the Killer who had to pull off an impressive mind-game to get to them. Things like that bring another problem into the game - and that is some sort of Survivor superiority complex, which leads to Survivors "dancing" in the Killer's face or at the Exit Gate, then unleashing their (not very impressive) vocabulary in the post-game chat. I believe the reason behind that is the fact that the game forgives so many of their mistakes and still allows them to get away that they begin to genuinely believe in a lie that they are incredibly good at the game. Though if the feeling of being good at something leads to such attitude... That's a different kind of problem entirely.
As for the Keys... Well, I can think of a way of ballancing them, along with Mori's. I believe it would be a good idea to apply a Mori effect on a Survivor who has the Key. Or better yet... on a Survivor who has brought the Key, so there would be no abuse by leaving the Key somewhere on the ground until it's needed. That would link bringing the Key to the risk of getting Mori'd. And as for the Mori... How about tremendously increasing the chance of finding a Key for all Survivors who face the Killer with Mori? The buff would last until the Key is found by someone, because who needs 4 Keys? That way, any Killer who would bring Mori to the Trial would be forced to face the risk of Survivors using the cheesy way to escape, which, in turn, would ensure the Killer losing their rank points and wasting the Offering.
I completely agree with you on the topic of Borrowed Time, Decisive Strike and Unbreakable. Those Perks are specifically designed to punish certain dirty plays made by Killer and can in no way be considered a free ticked out of the bad play made by a Survivor. They are fair.
And I agree with your opinion on the bad totem spots problem. Bringing a Hex Perk to the Trial is linked to the risk of losing it in exchange of it's power. After all, Survivors too can lose their Perks. Those 3 ones mentioned above would be a good example as they could be completely impossible to use in case the Killer's playstyle doesn't allow them to activate. If anything, the only change I personally would like to be made about totems is giving them invulnerabilty for the first minute of the game (or even less).
As for the big maps... Well, the thing about that is yes, a high-speed or teleporting Killer can definitely deal with them, but some Killers are just unable to. So, should they be forced to burn the map Offerings all the time then? I don't think so. When it comes to the maps, something must be done to achieve the ballance for both Killers and Survivors. The maps should make the game more interesting, not be an element of random advantage/disadvantage.
The only major thing I disgree with you on is your wording "easy 4k". Playing Killer is itself a hard mode of Dead by Daylight, and in the real match there is no such thing as easy 4K. It's only possible if Survivors allow it to happen, weither on purpose or not.
And as you say "they tend to make it look bigger than it is truly", I would like to point out that the problems as they are now are already big enough. I believe, those players you were refering to try to make it look bigger for but one purpose: to attract more attention to it. A move of desparation, but honestly... at this point, their desparation is perfectly justified.
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@XRuecian said:
There are maybe some tweaks they can do with him to make things a little more clean and less frustrating, but i doubt you will see any blatant huge buffs for him like movespeed increase, or allowing him to kill you with his gun from range. He did only just come out, so maybe you might see changes with reeling speed or chain durability. But i don't think he only relies on survivors making mistakes as you say. If you are good enough at predicting survivors movement and knowing where its a good idea and a bad idea to attempt a shot, there are a lot of plays you can make, regardless of if the survivor makes a mistake or not.
And while i agree, no killer should be addon dependant, i don't think it is possible to make the killers non perk dependant. Unless they nerf every perk to have a much smaller impact on the game, there will always be killers who just have too much synergy with a perk to not use it. For example, if they buffed Deathslinger to recover faster after landing a shot/reel in, so that he isn't dependant on STBFL, he then could STILL run STBFL and just be extra strong instead. So their only choice is to leave deathslinger and STBFL how it is, or buff deathslinger and nerf STBFL so that he isn't OP with it, which would hurt a lot of other killers instead.
Oh, of course. If anything, I expect them to nerf him, which would lead to him flying straight out of the window. Because that's just what they do, is it not?
Oh, and I wasn't talking about just the mechanical mistakes on the Survivor side. I was talking about tactical mistakes as well, if not more, such as trying to go all together for an unhook instead of doing gens or something like that. Being caught out of position counts as one of those.
And it wouldn't require reducing his attack cooldown to make him less dependant on Save the Best for Last. All it would take is buffing his reeling and reload speed. That would open up some other tactics and builds that could compete with "Save the Best for Last" Perk, while keeping it as one of his good builds. But as of now, it's rather this perk or something that would give Survivors the Exposed status effect. Otherwise, he's simply unable to down Survivors quick enough to keep up with the current rules of the game. Can you see why such buff would not involve nerfing Save the Best for Last? That's because buffing reeling and reload speed would not really affect his current tactics with that Perk. But it would make the Perk itself less of a must have for him, because he would be able to apply two shots in a chase without Survivor being able to get to the whole other side of the map while he reloads. But neither would that Survivor be unable to put enough distance between the Killer and themselves to make the further chase still fair.
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"You've seen the world. You've seen the state it's in. You're smart enough to know that someone, somewhere has lied to you. There is no plan. There is no balance. It's all lies..." - Pride, Darksiders 3.
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@XRuecian said:
I don't disagree that he has difficulty pressuring gens enough to keep up with the games speed. But that is not a Deathslinger problem, its a general game problem. Pretty much every killer that can't teleport or dash across the map is having that same problem, which is why i think when they do fix the game speed problem, deathslinger will be just fine. Otzdarva has played quite a lot of him, and even though he misses at least half of his shots, he generally has been winning games more than losing, regardless of rank.
I feel like deathslinger is directly a mid-tier killer, which isn't that bad when you consider how much worse some others are doing. Because he is half ranged half melee, he has amazing perk synergies. Pretty much every perk that is good on huntress is better on him, and he gets the benefit of still being able to get the best out of M1 oriented perks like STBFL/Devour Hope/NOED/Make your Choice.
Of course it's a general game problem, but the efficiency of the Killers can only be determined within the rules of the game. And while playing by the current rules, he's just not viable. It is true that Otzdarva played a lot of him, and I've seen all of his videos (not the actual streams sadly), and I don't know if he deliberately picks such matches for his videos, but I haven't seen much of his Deathslinger being put up against the full gen-rushing SWF. Those Survivors made their mistakes. On top of that, it was the time when the Survivors were still getting used to playing against that Killer. And I honestly doubt that many of them played on PTB.
And I never meant to say that Deathslinger is the worst Killer in the game. It's just that his efficiency is rather... underwhelming. That and he's extremely dependant on certain Perks (like Save the Best for Last for an effecient combo) and Add-Ons (Like Bayshore's Gold Tooth for reeling speed). And the very fact that some Killers are that dependant on Perks and Add-Ons is a design flaw all it's own, in my opinion. But that's a different topic entirely.
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@AnnoyedAtTheGame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1166926#Comment_1166926
If survivors gen rush, you know where abouts the survivors are. How can people complain about this?
Just to make sure... How much do you know about what it's like to play a Killer? The first gen often pops before it's possible to even get a single down.
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@XRuecian said:
It's true that his killspeed potential is lower than huntress but that is only in that one scenario where they are attempting to down multiple enemies one after another. He has other advantages that huntress does not. He can sneak up on people way way way way easier. He can shoot through tiny tiny holes in almost every wall to hit an enemy. He never has to end a chase to go get hatchets if he runs out.
Huntress hatchets are way more lethal, but they are harder to aim, and its basically like trying to throw beach ball sized shots, they require way way more precision to not accidentally hit an object. It's only natural that someone would be rewarded more for landing her shots over his. If they did buff his lethality to be equal to huntress, then huntress would instantly become a useless killer because he would simply be better at all things with no downsides.
Yes, he has a lot of downsides, but you can't just complain about them and ignore the fact that he has plenty of upsides as well. You cannot underestimate his ability to be stealthy. Unlike huntress, he can walk around a corner and instant-shoot you, he doesn't have to give away a sound queue that he is readying a shot. The survivors have WAY less reaction time to counterplay him. Sure, he can't hurt someone who is on the other side of a pallet.... but guess who else can't do that? Almost every other killer. If he could, he would be the only killer anyone would ever play because it would be so easy and so unstoppable. You can't play him like a huntress, because he isn't huntress. His strength comes in stealth, rendering windows unusable, and having the potential to down someone before they can reach a loop in the first place if you are skilled with him. Huntress has some of the same strengths, but different weaknesses. In exchange for her having lethal hatchets, they are harder to use, she has zero stealth, and they give survivors a warning that you are aiming a shot.
The problem is, if they buff deathslinger much, he will quickly become more than just okay, he will be straight up broken. Since his gun is so so easy to aim and shoot quickly (you can literally quickshot it, no need to prep a hit like huntress) any little buff will be amplified by anyone who is good at twitch muscle gaming, and i don't want DBD to become that. He basically makes every window in the game completely useless already, and a lot of the longer loops, like shack, are also useless against him.
If you want a killer who has range, speed, and full lethality, we already have nurse. And there is a reason she is so insanely difficult to use. Any easier and she would just dominate every game without any skill needed. The same applies with Deathslinger, just in the opposite direction. Instead of being super difficult, ranged and lethal, he is super simple, ranged and less lethal. There is a balance to be kept. If you make something easy to use, it has to be weak to compensate. And if you make something very strong, it has to be super hard to compensate. It is only when this formula is not followed that imbalance is created. Freddy and Spirit, for example might be a little too strong in comparison for how easy they are to use. They TRIED to make spirit hard to use, by making her unable to see survivors, but it seems that does not make her as difficult as they thought it would.
but you can't just complain about them and ignore the fact that he has plenty of upsides as well.
The problem is the fact that his upsides are simply not good enough to compensate for his downsides in the current meta. They only succeed in making him fun to play, but fun is a pretty questionable and subjective thing that quickly evaporates when the player realises that they are bound to lose more than win, no matter how good they get. And the reason for that is that he's generally slow at everything. And as slow as he is, he is completely powerless to compete with the current gen speed. And on top of that, his power does not do enough to compensate for his lack of map pressure, unlike the powers of the other slow Killers.
And if you wish a stealthy Killer, there are choices that are much more viable than Deathslinger.
Sure, he can't hurt someone who is on the other side of a pallet.... but guess who else can't do that? Almost every other killer.
It would make no sense to compare him to the mellee Killers. And every other ranged Killer (Huntress and Plague) actually can down a Survivor who's on the other side of the pallet.
You can't play him like a huntress, because he isn't huntress.
I'm not talking about playing him like Huntress. I'm talking about playing him to the same efficiency level as Huntress. Those are two different things.
rendering windows unusable
Yes, he's supposed to do that, but even that is not always the case. There are some Survivors who know how to wiggle properly while being pulled. And they manage to get so far to the side that even after pulling them as close and possible, Deathslinger still can't land a hit through the window. That's something that must be fixed.
In exchange for her having lethal hatchets, they are harder to use
Oh, they are definitely much harder to use when it comes to aiming. However, their hit boxes cannot be compared to the one of Redeemer. One too many times I've seen both myself and the streamers miss a shot that looked like it should have 100% hit the target.
he will quickly become more than just okay
Who said that he's okay in the first place? Not even the streamers play him all that much in higher ranks. In my opinion, he is far from being okay, and is currently one of the Low Tier Killers. And I personally didn't have much fun playing him even at the low ranks, despite leveling him up to almost 50 (I haven't counted, but it's definitely 20+ matches on him). Especially since match making makes it a high rank game every once in a while anyway. Something must be done about him. Increasing his reeling speed would be a good start.
If you make something easy to use, it has to be weak to compensate.
Tell that to MOBA games. In fact... I doubt that logic has any right of being applied in any genre at all. No, there will always be the characters for the novice players and for the experienced ones. And while it's true that the higher skill requirements need to be rewarded properly, that should in no way mean that the less skill-dependent characters should be weak to the point of being unplayable in the real competition. If you want to talk about ballance, there are different ways. Those characters that are not so mechanically demanding usually get some higher requirements in something else. As in, the game knowledge and ability to apply certain tactis. The requirement of thinking more instead of pressing more buttons. That's just an abstract example though.
That being said, Deathslinger gameplay design is actually fun to play and I personally want to be able to play him more. But mixing emotions and facts is not acceptible. And the fact is, he just cannot compare to the effective Killers and doesn't stand much chance against the gen-rushing Red Ranked SWF. That means the only reason to even play him is for fun, and that reason is highly questionable. As it is now, it doesn't matter how skilled one gets with Deathslinger, that Killer is going to lose vs good Survivors even if he lands his every single shot and applies the most optimal tactics. He can only punish Survivor's mistakes, and if they don't make any - it's over for him.
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@Beardedragon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/138257/camping-penalties
"Please enforce gen rush pelanties for players that use survivors. The game get redundant and reduces the fun factor where we encounter several games in a row that have players that gen rush constantly".
all parts of this game have things that are unfun, your gen rushing isnt exactly a blessing either
Just... Yes!
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@Deadeye said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1166336#Comment_1166336
The scenarios you bring up might be a case, but it doesn't change anything on the fact that the average unhooking time is about 10 seconds. And that is at least one of the reasons why killers get paranoid.
You see people randomly close to the hook, I see people jumping off a gen the second someone gets downed. Btw giving target from a far doesn't help because that is a lost chase. He needs to take 10 seconds to get close while you already start running when you see him from a distance. Making noise from a distance is the typical SWF note to the killer that "there is someone right behind you that wants the unhook, so come here that I can trigger my BL". That's why no killer takes this "opportunity". If you want the attention, give him a chance to hit you, not to chase you.
Not sure about your experience, but I see camping that I give up on about 1-2 times a week, when I go for the unhook and decide to let go. Mostly you can see it from a distance what's going on, especially if you already see another tbaggin survivor around. If I see that, I normally at least get one gen done, most of the times already sitting on the next one. And as survivor I don't call the killer camper if I didn't see him doing so, and I don't call out for gen rush until I see 2 BNPs and Prove Thyself. Me sitting on a gen without having pressure for 80 seconds is no gen rushing. I wouldn't blame the survivor but the game when gens go too fast.
Btw I am still defeinding the killer side. In my doc example the streamer was sitting on a gen and 3 were around the hook. Same situation with me being too far away. Still 3 survivors not working on gens, which is normally not that easy to achieve. Means you have at least 5-6 minutes having fun with the hook exchanges before you need to take care of that one person doing gens. And if you get one kill during that time it makes it even easier.
And I can't find where you were talking about killer play. I just found "Let the killer camp = shitshow" which means you want to tell killers to not camp. And the thread title is camping penalties. That is equal to setting rules for playing behavior. There are enough perks to deal with a lot of situations, but you prefer your own build, expecting the game to handle the rest for you. That's what I read from your comments.
What I'm trying to say is, there are ways to work around it. Less insta unhooks = less camping. "Punishing" killer behaviour by doing gens or bringing the right perks, not by "give back all these bloodpoints and pips!". Or simply just don't give a F and hop onto the next game. If you are the one on the hook, typically flap your arms to tell "the killer is camping, do gens". Was quite a common way of communication about 1 or 2 years ago. Maybe unfun, but instead of self sacrifice, give the team the time to work on gens. But that is not the way most people play this game. It is just for your own personal fun, and if that is not given, people throw the game. Causing a lot of follow-up frustration. Like got tbagged? Next team gets a Mori. Got camped? Next killer gets flashlight, OoO and Dstrike. Or what I described, that killers just get used to camp because it pays out, or get used to slug because everyone runs DS. All in all you will never be able to set up a "rule system" that makes everyone play in a way that everyone has maximum fun
I apologise for the intervention, but I believe it to be an act of good will to let you know that by trying to prove anything to that exact person you're simply wasting your time. They have shown that their favourite thing to do here is to twist their own words and the words of others in the direction they want it to go, even if that makes no sense in the end. Just giving you this warning in hopes of you avoiding the same experience I have gone through in this thread.
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@XRuecian said:
You know, when i first started getting into more competitive games when i was younger, i used to play a lot, and i never really seen blatant hacking in most games firsthand. So i always was under the belief that people who cried about hacking were just looking for an excuse to explain their loss. But as i played more and more, i started doing something. Whenever i play a competitive game now, and i dont SEE anyone hacking, it makes me wonder: Is this game just well made and hack free? Or are the hackers just using very discreet hacks that you can't notice outright? So, i will go online and try to FIND hacks for the game, just to see if they are available, or if there are any youtube videos showing off these hacks. And to my surprise... almost every single game, even the ones where i thought there wasn't a cheating problem, had wallhacks/aimhacks/etc. It really broke my heart as a gamer that the games i had played and trusted in were possibly not being played in good faith by my opponents at all. How many games have i lost and thought that i sucked, or complimented the enemy for being good when in fact it could have just been them cheating all along? What if half of these rank 1 players that keep kicking my ass are in fact using cheats, and not just that much better than me?
I am actually afraid to even look up the state of hacks for DBD. I am afraid i will run into videos of survivor hacks that just straight up let them see the killers aura at all times, or get the benefit of a toolbox infinitely, etc. I already have enough problems getting motivated to play killer, if i see that, it might just destroy my will to play completely...
You're bound to see such things if you watch Otzdarva or Tru3Ta1ent. The only good thing about the situation is the fact that hackers like those are really rare (obvious speed hackers or noclip hackers).
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That's a really nice idea that deserves support, in my opinion.
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@XRuecian said:
I don't think Deathslinger is in an unplayable state. All things considered, it could be a lot worse (Cough Clown Cough).
He does have a lot of strengths to make up for his weaknesses. And if they do fix genrushing then he might be in the perfect spot. And they have hinted at wanting to do something about generator speed, especially in the first minute or two of the game.
Despite his terrible map pressure, Clown (surprisingly) has a better chance of downing a looping Survivor than Deathslinger does. In my opinion, if you want a ranged Killer, Huntress or Plague would be a much better choice.
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@danielbird11 said:
Imo deathslinger is better than huntress he can stop loops that huntress simply can't. Plus his instant shooting is really good. Combine that with his low terror radius without a hum and he is a really strong killer if you play him right. Especially with stbfl and M&A. He also reduces the amount of distance survivors get after being hit if he reels them in fully. Imo his only cons are his 110ms and limited range. Other than that he is a pretty solid killer. Gen-rush is the problem.
One of Tru3Ta1ents side-by-side comparison videos gives all the proof needed that Huntress is much better than Deathslinger. In the similar situation (even a bit worse for Huntress) she's able to get 2 downs in a time span not enough for Deathslinger to get even one. He's slow not only in walking. He's slowed down by reloading, by reeling in. And his biggest problem is that even landing every shot is not going to guarantee him the downs, because Survivors can use terrain to break the chain quickly, body block the ones being reeled in, take a hit for them, etc. And as Huntress, you get a guaranteed down every time you land a shot on an injured Survivor. And it's instant, no need to suffer through the slow reeling animation while the other Survivors are doing something useful on the map.
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@Babyyy_Boyy said:
You can’t counter him. He will shoot you over loops, through walls, through cracks, over pallets, through windows.
Shoot you? Definitely. Down you? Not so sure. There's a big chance of him wasting his time reeling you in from afar only for you to get some terrain between you and him and break the chain. Deep Would might be annoying, but it's a million times better than hanging on the hook. Even if Deathslinger never misses a shot, he's bound to spend a lot of time actually getting a down. Huntress, for example, can get 2 downs in a time span shorter than the one Deathslinger needs to get even one!
And have you actually tried playing Deathslinger yourself? If so, there's no way of you not knowing just how small Redeemer's hitbox is and how much precision it takes to land a successful shot. If you haven't played him, give it a try. And then, as a Survivor, try and copy the juke technique of the Survivors you won't be able to hit with your shot.
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@Chrisko said:
Deathslinger is like a huntress that doesn't have to go to a locker to reload. Huntress could just throw hatchets at you until she either downed you or got close enough to M1.
My experience with Deathslinger:
In my experience I drop a pallet, he hits me across the loop (window, pallet or low obstruction), reels me in and I am now injured. Regardless whether I stay or move to another loop, he shoots me again (across the pallet and reels me in). Now I am downed and being hooked.
If i am far away from him, he runs me down while shooting at me. If I dodge the harpoon, he gains ground on me and eventually either harpoons me across the loop or M1s me when he gets close.
If he would have to reload somewhere or if the harpoon traveled a little slower to give some reaction time, it would give survivors a chance to dodge.
Oh my goodness, what have I just read? Allow me to clarify a few things:
1) Huntress has 6 hatchets that she can fire nearly back-to-back before having to reload,
2) Deathslinger's Deep Wound effect is cool and all, but the objective is to down and hook all Survivors, and that's what he struggles to do because hitting his shot does not guarantee a down (Survivor can wiggle out of it, their friends can body-block, etc.).
3) Reeling speed. Look at one of Tru3ta1ent's latest videos on YouTube where he puts Huntress and Deathslinger in similar situations and Huntress is able to get 2 downs before Deathslinger can get even one while never missing a shot. He's slow not only in walking. (Tru3 is an experience Rank 1 Killer and Survivor, you can't blame his conclusion on the lack of skill or game awareness!)
4) This one comes from the previous thing. Every mistake made on Deathslinger is extremely punishing! That's because of him having to reload after every shot on top of being slowed by a (short) cooldown animation. That means he's either supposed to let himself turn into an M1 Killer or allow a Survivor to put a rather considerable distance between him and them. Each of those options easily turns into a huge waste of time, causing him to lose a couple of gens easily.
5) Extremely dependent on "Save the Best for Last" perk. Requires it to be at least somewhat viable by using his hit-cooldown-shot combo for insta-down. Otherwise simply too slow vs gen speed. Of course, he can bring the Perks applying Exposed status offect on Survivor, but that seems to be less consistent in it's performance.
Considering how gens fly in the current meta (even at Rank 14 I had an experience of the first gen being done in 20 seconds or so), Deathslinger is nearly a joke at the higher ranks. His only way of winning against a good group of Survivors is to capitalize on their mistakes while having no right to make ones of his own. If Survivors don't make mistakes and are good at looping him, he might end up getting his first down by the time the last gen pops, and even that would be lucky.
And above all that... You have said that Deathslinger has reeled you in over the pallet? That is not possible. If he hits you with his harpoon over the pallet, he can't reel you in close enough to hit you. He can either break the chain on his own and let you go or let it break on it's own to apply Deep Wound to you while he's stunned. The only exception to it is when there's an extremely short path around the pallet that he can walk and get to the other side before the chain breaks.