HaterMcTater

@UlvenDagoth said:
Side note: I saw the word "Optimal" thrown around for just doing the gens and leaving instantly. Don't do that. As a Killer that really just makes me think "Why Bother" or that it was ultimately uninteresting cause of not being able to do much about the gens popping like popcorn. Play the game, have fun. It's not about being "Optimal" and alot of people think it is... it's about enjoying yourself.

Hi! I like to play the same way and have fun, but unfortunately, optimal players are the ones who have played this game for quite some time and focus on winning. It's hard to balance anything since it's closer to being a spectrum, ranging from newer players, casual players, good players, and optimal players. It's quite a task to balance between everyone since not everyone can be pleased. I personally agree with your idea of having fun and just casually playing, but others prefer playing this game to their highest efficiency.

in No One Escapes Death Perk Rework Ideas Comment by HaterMcTater October 14, 2019

@StevePerryPsychOut said:
I don't think "rewarding failure" is a good excuse to nerf or rework a perk. Getting injured or downed is "failure" for survivors, but I don't think that means that resilience, this is not happening, unbreakable, tenacity, or flip flop need to be changed. A survivor team dying without finishing gens is a "failure" does left behind need to be changed?
Losing an injured survivor could be considered a "failure" but I don't think nurse's calling or bloodhound need changes. Letting a door open might be considered a "failure," but I don't think bloodwarden needs to be changed.
I think the "noed rewards failure" argument just doesn't make sense. In a balanced game sometimes things just aren't going to go the way you want them to.

NOED does in fact reward failure. If you base success and failure off of killer pipping system, what developers say, and how many survivors escape, the end game collapse is considered a failure for killers. Their job in the gatekeeper scoring category is to complete the game as soon as possible with as little gens done as possible. The issue with NOED is that it encourages survivors to things that are considered non optimal in order to achieve end game (the very state that you don't want to be in as killer). You can easily tell when a killer has NOED because they participate in chases for way longer than they should, this is the bad habits I'm talking about. Optimal killers need to understand how long they should chase a survivor for without gens being completed like crazy, NOED killers will stay in chases for way longer because they hold the mentality of "I have NOED, I'll get him soon." That should never be the mentality of a killer, the killer needs to understand time is precious and needs to be treated as such. I don't personally mind the perk too much, but newer killers get to higher ranks based off of one perk that will ultimately betray them in the future. Unfortunately, it's the very definition of a crutch perk since NOED itself makes worse killers better but only when they "fail." This is the issue I have with the perk, it rewards failure, teaches bad habits to newer killers, and overall dulls the objective for killer.

Also, for your second part, I think perks that reward failure are inherently flawed, for both killer and survivor. Being downed and hooked is part of gameplay for survivors, if it wasn't, killers wouldn't win. Perks like unbreakable, tenacity, and flip flop will help survivors in the injured state, the killer's job is to hook survivors, by slugging them, they failed their job to secure the hook on the survivor. In reality, those perks reward survivors for failure on the killer's part. I will admit that there's survivor perks that reward failure, for instance DS. However, this isn't the topic for those kind of perks, and I will discuss them on a later date in a discussion of it's own. I respect your opinion on the matter since it's interesting from seeing multiple perspectives, thanks.

in No One Escapes Death Perk Rework Ideas Comment by HaterMcTater October 13, 2019

@UlvenDagoth said:
I mean, what else am I supposed to do when Survivors pop the gens like popcorn? I don't run NOED myself, but honestly... you get high rank and watch those gens. Even more from a Killer's perceptive. I feel NOED is used by people tired of games shorting than Lobby q times.

Well that's the issue, the meta for killer perks right now are all slow down perks. The end game is undesirable to get to for a killer since 2-4 survivors alive makes it hard to get another kill (making NOED still a bad choice) the rework I'm suggesting is designed to help slow down the game, keep the perk similar to its intended lore and previous ability, and not be seen as a "toxic" perk.

in No One Escapes Death Perk Rework Ideas Comment by HaterMcTater October 13, 2019

@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/758350#Comment_758350
i have a problem with you saying the perk would reward failure though.
in fact, it actually punishes failure - the survivors failure in completing their secondary objective.
i know many survivors dont want this to be true, but if they had just done totems, they wouldnt have to fight NOED. they brought that uppon themselves.
though, this is something i believe the current NOED is not doing in its full potential. my main problem being that no matter how many totems you did, as long as there is at least one standing, the perk will strike in its full power. and the other way around. no matter how many totems there are left, all they need to do is having this one cursed totem destroyed to completely negate the effect.
and this is where my rework suggestion comes into play: the more totems the survivors did, the less charges my NOED will have, rewarding you for actually searching some totems instead of always striking at full force, therefore making the entire totem hunt seem pointless.
it would also encourage you to do the totems before you repair the last gen - well unless you like mori animations that is.
your idea is just straight up killing the perk, nothing more and nothing less. having it light up before it even gets to activate renders the entire perk utterly useless. if your only concern is nerfing the perk, i will not stand behind that. the perk is already weak enough.
and one more thing: just because you completed 5 gens does not mean you are out yet. you have not won at that point. NOED is just a tool used by killers to show that, even if you came so close everything can be taken from you again in the blink of an eye, because you made some silly little mistake back then (which funnily enough ties in perfectly with the story of the game and the entity feeding on the survivors despair when they see their chances of escape fade away). the perk just allows every killer to get to a deadly new standart: when you can just leave after getting hit once, why not make it so that one strike is actually lethal? that way you will have to leave or risk dying.

Well, I'm sorry to say, but, totems are not a secondary objective, they're not even considered optimal to go for. I play in Rank 1 for both killer and survivor where players play optimally more than anything. It is not the survivors job to go out and cleanse 5 totems for a perk that may not even be in play, it's just too much of a waste of time. NOED is hardly used in the higher ranks, and the killers who use it are obviously shown in their skill. The reason I bring up the issues with NOED is that it's harmful for newer players and anyone who wants to learn killer. Your perk proposal is asking for NOED to be essentially buffed (instant mori is toxic in of itself since it enables a killer to tunnel a survivor all game and mori them, I have a similar issue with Rancor but that's for a different discussion). The idea I'm hoping to achieve is a perk rework that can fill the same roll as the previous perk but in a better way. Essentially, the perk NOED is to prevent escapes when the game is reaching it's climax, however, it encourages players to reach the climax in order to receive it's benefits, otherwise it is a useless perk slot.

Based off of the scoring system and overall game flow, the goal of the killer is to stop the survivors as soon as possible with as little progression as possible, the finale should not be a desirable state for the killer to be in. The finale is designed for the killer to get some last minute plays going, but, the match is ultimately over at that point, especially with 2-4 survivors still alive. No perk should make you want to reach this point as a killer. Your perk rework suggestion not only encourages that same issue but buffs it even more by allowing moris (again, controversial topic already). The rework I suggested is designed to slow the game down while the game is still going, while keeping the same lore behind it (the closer they get to escape, the more the entity feeds off of their hope and plunge them into despair).

I appreciate your opinion on the matter and do enjoy discussions, so please don't say I'm "killing the perk" when I'm trying to make it competitively viable and doesn't promote any bad game play habits. Also, I think you got a bit confused when you said "having the perk lit up but not activated" I'm assuming your talking about having the hex totem lit up before the perk activates. This is untrue as the perk is active from the very start of the game, it just gains power with every gen done, on the 3rd completed gen, it turns into a hex totem to be destroyed if found. However, this doesn't mean it wasn't active during the match, if the first gen is completed, the 2nd gen is 10% slower, on the 3rd completed gen, the next one is 20% but now it can be destroyed if sought after. Hope that helps.

in No One Escapes Death Perk Rework Ideas Comment by HaterMcTater October 13, 2019

@Mister_xD said:
here is my rework idea:
when the last generator is repaired, every remaining dull totem will light up.
gain tokens based on the number of NOED totems.
if you get close to a survivor, press M1 to immediately throw them on the ground and start your mori animation on them. this animation can not be cancelled by eigther the killer nor the survivor.
after killing the survivor, lost 3/2/1 tokens and an equal amount of Hex totems will be destroyed.
if the perk has not enough charges left to perform a kill, the perk deactivates and all NOED totems will turn back to dull totems.
survivor destroying a NOED totem will also remoe 1 charge from the perk.
i went into great detail on why i think this is better in other posts already, so i'll leave it with the basic idea here for now.

Well, the issue I had with the perk and started the discussion of the rework is that it rewards failure. Unfortunately, I believe the rework idea you suggested would make the situation worse. Moris in of itself is highly controversial, to gain the ability of immediately being able to mori someone off of 0 hooks on that person AND that the killer has failed in their job is the opposite direction I had planned. I really do appreciate your opinion and your suggestion, I just think that the suggestion isn't the direction I think they should move with the perk.

in No One Escapes Death Perk Rework Ideas Comment by HaterMcTater October 13, 2019

@Frosty said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/757448#Comment_757448
I'd like to point out that the devs have stated that an ideal out come of the game is 2 die 2 escape. This implies the game is balanced around the gates being powered and opened every game. With that being said, gens being completed does not constitute a failure of the killer.
Also, what are these bad habits you speak of? Any serious player will quickly learn that just waiting for NOED to pop to get easy downs will not earn pips or points.
It's possible to 4k before the gens are done and it's possible To 0k with this perk. So I don't think it's OP, it just steam rolls when a team hangs around and doesn't gtfo when they have a chance

Well, to begin with, the developers saying that "the ideal out come of the game is 2 die 2 escape" is either untrue or completely contradictory of what they've shown. Numerous sections of the killer pipping system is to prevent progression and sacrifices. Both the sacrifice and gate keeper pipping sections are important parts of killer progression, the issue is that killers are complaining the 3 kills and 1 escape warrants a black pip, which is a topic in of itself.

The bad habits I speak of are the mentality of "It's okay to waste time in this chase, if the last gen is done I'll have NOED" or anything similar to that. Killers need to optimize the time they have in order to prevent the survivors from completing the gens, thus bringing the game to it's finale stage. The killer's job is to prevent this stage from even happening, the pipping system also supports this. NOED is a perk that enhances the killler's strength in this finale stage, the stage that shouldn't be desirably to reach, let a lone bring perks for it. Slow down perks are the meta for killers since it prevents survivor progression in reaching the finale stage. Should the survivors reach finale stage, the killer should be pressured to get kills, not be relieved that they can now be faster and get on shot downs, it's the wrong mentality to have in that scenario. Newer killers will then gravitate towards this perk instead of investing in and learning other perks that prevents that stage entirely. This is what I've observed and learned from play time experience, it's fine if you have a different opinion.

in No One Escapes Death Perk Rework Ideas Comment by HaterMcTater October 13, 2019

@Well_Placed_HexTotem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/757448#Comment_757448
An optimal survivor play style includes either a perk to secure totems or totem hunting itself. It’s not hard at all to find and take out five totems. I solo queue as survivor and make it my mission to cleanse totems. I rarely come across NOED and routinely finish atop the survivor scoreboard in my matches or very near it.
Your idea of optimal sounds like it’s spawn, hammer out gens, leave. That’s only optimal in terms of live or die. It doesn’t get you optimal bloodpoints or emblem progress.

Optimal survivors are the players who have played this game for quite some time and understand the game extremely well. They also make sure to optimize everything extremely well, they can optimize pallet loops by taking longer to throw the pallet, optimize wasting the killer's time, and optimize the gens. An optimal team can finish a match in 5-7 minutes if done correctly. At no point do optimal teams go out of their way to do totems (unless there's ruin, but even then, they can do a great job on skillchecks where it doesn't even matter). Optimal players do not waste time cleansing 5 totems instead of doing generators, that's why killer perks that slow down or delay survivors in any way are the meta ones. The best way to beat optimal survivors is to give them more stuff to waste their time on. If you ednd up wasting time every single game searching for 5 totems (which will set you back 2-3 minutes at least) is not optimal. I'm not saying every player should play like this, but this is the definition of optimal survivors.