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I disagree with almost all the suggestions here. Removing the distance or the immunity frames? Either effectively kills the perk. If you remove the i-frames, then it's just a really, really bad sprint burst. Remove the distance and the killer will simply recover and down you before you have a chance to accomplish anything. I also disagree with a complete rework. IMO, it's not necessary.
The only problem with Dead Hard IMO is it's too readily available. Too easy to utilize. Right now, the only restriction on DH is that you have to be injured to use it, that's it. To me, that's a bit too lenient in relation to how powerful it is. Just make it a bit stricter to use and it'll go a long way at resolving the issue.
As for a few examples, in addition to needing to be injured:
DH becomes active (lit up) for only X seconds after getting hit, before deactivating.
DH only becomes active after being in a chase for X amount of time while injured.
Has some other requirement to activate, such as taking a protection hit, getting a successful rescue, healing an injured state etc.
Give it charges so it can only be used X number of times per match.
Basically, slightly restrict how freely the perk is available but otherwise leave it the same, working exactly as it does now. Same amount of distance, same i-frames, same exhaustion, but can't be utilized quite so freely as before.
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Try - DECIPHERSTRIKE
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Ehh, until the hacking situation is better resolved, I take all my killer matches with a grain of salt. I wouldn't be surprised if hackers can make your traps glow hot pink and auto disarm when nearby. I mean, I can't say for certain that's a factor or not, but it wouldn't surprise me, especially if you're playing on the high end of the MMR spectrum.
That being said, I do agree with you that trapper has it pretty rough. I'd argue he's easily one of the bottom 3 killers. He's definitely far more add-on dependent than most killers and one of the only killers that can be soft-countered by graphics settings. But, I really don't have any feedback on what can be done about it. It's pretty much the nature of the beast with Trapper. When people can see your traps and disarm them, in spite of you hiding them in the most optimal spots, there's really nothing more to be done short of running the sweatiest add-ons available. But, that's not exactly a new paradigm, trapper's been like this pretty much since the beginning, except that his add-ons are infinitely better than they used to be.
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If you're playing against NOED killers and NOED is getting the killer 2+ extra kills, it just means you're playing at the lowest MMR with the worst players in the game. Once you get a little bit better, you'll come to realize that NOED is actually pretty weak (basically 1 kill if you're lucky), easily counterable, (break 5 totems or break the hex once it's lit) and overall just bad, only useful vs the worst of survivors.
Good killers don't run the perk because it's just terrible and unreliable and isn't useful against even half decent survivors. Once you raise your MMR to a mediocre level, you'll come to the same conclusion. You'll quickly notice that there are very few killers that actually run the perk because they'd rather win games rather than run a clutch perk that's completely unreliable against everyone but the absolute worst survivors.
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@zumer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2590567#Comment_2590567
Can you escape from all matches. There are survivors who die in every match. Should they leave the game? I understand you? Do I understand BHVR's policy?
Let me get this straight. You've gone from, "Solo escape is not possible" to "Can you escape from all matches?" as if the two things are correlated. It's a false dichotomy.
Anybody not cheating simply cannot escape every match, nor should they expect to. And just because they can't escape every match doesn't make solo escapes impossible.
Also, any survivor that's actually trying to escape and still dies literally every match is just terrible at the game, period. The reason for this is because eventually, they're going to play against terrible killers and if they still can't escape vs those killers, it's because they just don't know how to survive. That's not inherently a bad thing, everyone has a limit to their personal skill and some people's limits are going to be towards to bottom. Should they leave the game? Well, if they aren't having fun, then yes, absolutely. No point in playing a game you aren't enjoying. If they are having fun, then it doesn't matter if they escape or not because they're having fun.
However, this entire thread sounds like survivor entitlement trolling. This guy claims solo escape is impossible because he can't escape. most of the time It's just ridiculous. Anyone with a brain in their head can recognize it for what it is.
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@jamally093 said:
I get put down at two survivors me and someone else what happens they slug what's the point of it i'll just crawl away and bleed out because they don't get anything for someone bleeding out one the hatch doesn't spawn at two survivors or so on so there's no point to slug someone.
You answered your own question. "The hatch doesn't spawn at two survivors". That's the reason some killers slug in the scenario you laid out. They are deliberately preventing the hatch spawn. However, if the killer opts to hook in that same scenario, then it's out of the killer's hands. Either the survivor dies outright due to being their final hook, or they are given the opportunity to kill themselves, forcing the hatch spawn.
Now some player like myself don't give two craps about 4k's and just hook anyway, but some killers to care and that's why they do it. They want to maximize their chances at getting all four kills.
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@Duke_Ragereaver said:
every game for 2 days has been a super sweat fest, im not even in gold yet, then i get told i should "uninstall myself" because i lost a video game. if you want to deliberately thrust a bad time on my im going to do the same back.
Not being gold yet has 0 bearing on you going against super sweat teams. Your Grade (being not quite Gold) has nothing to do with your MMR (Match Making Rating). In other words, you could be among the highest MMR players and be in Bronze IV or you could be Iridescent I with very low MMR.
"Grade" is not an indication of skill but more a reflection of how much time you've invested into playing either Survivor or Killer.
The theoretical reason why you are coming against super sweaty teams is because you're playing at a high MMR, so the system is putting you against players that can challenge you at your skill level. If you sucked at the game, you'd be playing at a low MMR and it'd put you against appropriately sucky survivors.
It's highly unlikely the system is perfect or even close to it, but essentially, if you keep playing against super sweaty teams and lose against them as a result, it should normalize your MMR to a point where you'll stop running into those types of teams. However, if you 'rise to the challenge' so to speak and start playing equally sweaty so you can start winning those games, your MMR will remain the same or even go up, increasing the chances of you running into more super sweaty teams.
It begs the question, what's more important to you? Winning, or having fun. If you care more about fun, then just have fun with it. Roll with the punches and if a super sweaty team beats you badly, then accept that it actually works in your favor since the more times that happens, the less likely you are to come across that kind of team in the future. If you care more about winning, you better get used to running into groups of survivors that'll make you work for it, regardless if you're Ash, Gold or Iridescent rank.
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@Eninya said:
"Just drop the pallet early!"
You won't always have a situation in which you can drop it early. I've used Spirit Fury in every game I've run it, and as much as four times in a single match. You're eliminating a pallet AND getting a hit off of it without as much wasting time on either of those things separately.
If the survivor is in a situation where it's not possible for them to drop the pallet early and the killer has Spirit's Fury activated, then they should get hit. Not every contingency should be counterable.
I stand by this because generally speaking, against good survivors, (hell, even just okay survivors), it's so easy to play around Enduring+Spirit Fury in nearly all situations that a killer able to force a situation where they literally can't drop it early should be rewarded for doing so with a hit. If you're playing a match against survivors where you manage to activate SF 4 times in a one game, you're likely just playing against very bad survivors.
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@Eninya said:
"Just drop the pallet early!"
You won't always have a situation in which you can drop it early. I've used Spirit Fury in every game I've run it, and as much as four times in a single match. You're eliminating a pallet AND getting a hit off of it without as much wasting time on either of those things separately.
I agree, you won't always be in a situation where you can drop the pallet early and in those very specific situations, you should absolutely get hit. In every other situation though, drop the pallet early.
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In spite of the OP's complaints, things are leagues better than they used to be. Given the choice between a killer and survivor staring at each other for literally 10 minutes to see which one will flinch first and what we have now, there is no choice.
Things are in a pretty damn good spot now when it comes to the hatch. Better than they've ever been in fact. Now, does it suck when you're playing killer and the survivors find 2 purple+ keys in a match? Sure. In fact, I made a post earlier in another thread about what losses anger you most and I mentioned losing to keys survivors find in chests. As a killer, you do feel cheated out of a potential victory. But, for every match that has survivors finding hatch keys, there's another dozen where the survivors don't find any. There's even the occasional match where a survivor does find a key but they die anyway because they were outplayed.
So, do things really need a change? I personally don't think so. This isn't a problem that really demands the dev's attention. I hesitate to say this is actually a problem at all. More like the illusion of a problem. Just someone losing to a hatch key a few times, then blowing things out of proportion on the forums to make things seem far worse than they actually are. But, that's what these forums are nowadays. You lose to something a few times? You can always come here and complain about it to everyone on the forums. Even if those complaints are completely unwarranted and/or nonsensical. Like this one.
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Let's see. I'm solo survivor when I play survivor so my games tend to end up more on the frustrating side. Dying on my first hook because survivors are too afraid to go for rescues are a pretty infuriating loss. Though almost as infuriating is when I run the killer around for a fairly lengthy time only to ultimately get downed and see that each of the other survivors are crouching around the map not doing gens or literally anything at all. So, it's always a priority to get out of the low ranks asap.
As a killer, this seems to happen to me a fair bit but the survivors will get down to 1 gen and I'll have 1 survivor killed and several others on death hook. I'll patrol the generators like a good killer should only for the remaining 3 survivors to instantly escape through the hatch that was nowhere even remotely close to where I was patrolling, using a key that was either found or brought. Just feels like I got cheated out of what was otherwise a pretty good game up until that point where everyone was playing well but either got lucky or simply 'cheesed' a victory. Or that's how it feels anyway. Though I will say, if I notice a survivor bringing a key, I'll slap on a green mori and save it for that player. Other than daily rituals, that's about the only time I ever bother to bring a mori.
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OoO doesn't really affect Freddy any more than most other killers. It's far less oppressive against Freddy than say Ghost Face or Wraith. With respect, I don't think this was a Freddy issue but rather a SWF simply taking advantage of OoO issue, which is problematic all on it's own.
It sucks though that you ran into a coordinated SWF that was using OoO so soon after coming back but based on my personal experiences, it seems pretty uncommon to run into those types of groups. (OoO groups, not necessarily SWF groups). Probably varies based on your rank but if you haven't played in months, your rank should be low enough that you shouldn't run into too many OoO SWF teams very often.
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Let's see. You're playing Plague and want a Ruin replacement. You're already using Pop and Thanatophobia so that's already slowing down the game a fair bit.
My goto suggestion would be Sloppy Butcher to slow down healing and the game but since you're playing Plague, if they're healing that means they're cleansing so that's a no good either.
Corrupt Intervention might be a good choice based on your playstyle. Locking off 3 gens for 2 minutes would make getting use out of your Pop early game far easier.
You could also go for Infectious Fright but TBH, I'm convinced that BBQ does the job almost as well with the extra BPs, but either of those are fair choices.
Of course anything that helps you end chases sooner are valid options. Enduring/Spirit Fury, Save the Best for Last, Brutal Strength etc.
Lastly, when in doubt, Whispers is just an all around solid perk.
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@Shaped said:
Do you see the irony of your post?
You're suggesting I'm whining about whiners. You need to understand what whining is to see just why you're wrong. I'm addressing a problem and offering a solution. That's not whining. However, you and every single person that upvoted you on the other hand, not contributing anything to the discussion, are a glowing example of one of the many things that's currently wrong with these forums. Though, I shouldn't say I'm surprised. You see, this is the kind of crap I'm trying to minimize and stricter forum moderation would go a long ways in helping with that.
If what's currently going on is not against forum policy, it's time to change that policy.
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Pallet vaults are always fast vault. Window vaults should be slowed by the snare.
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I'd love to see Erma! Who can say no to that face!?
All joking aside, I've been advocating for Samara for a long time. I think she would be a good fit in the game (though I have no clue how she'd actually kill people since in The Ring she simply 'scares' people to death).
I also think we could go with some public domain killers. Medusa for example I think could be a good fit.
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Okay, are we actually at a point where every other thread here is a complaint thread about NOED and yet now we actually have someone complaining about survivors that actually cleanse the totems? Have these forums always been a whinefest or is this just a recent development?
Coming to these forums lately have been so depressing because there's so few legitimate conversations and so many toddlers crying about nonsensical bulls**t. Honestly, I think more moderation is in order and all these people that contribute nothing to the forums but more crying and whining should be treated like the babies they're acting like given the timeouts they deserve.
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@Atrushan88 said:
@MyNamePete You do realize even with Thrill of the Hunt you usually get to them at the last possible second or two before they cleansed a totem, right? Every second matters. If they have enough time to complete the totem, they'll take a hit but get the totem. 0.8 seconds could give them that time. Also it'd be minimum 1.4 seconds(Totems take 14 seconds without Thrill). Also if you thought totems were only 8 second cleanses, why would you ever think a totem should have an increase cleanse speed?
Not every interruption of a hex cleanse happens at the very last second and yes, every second matters which is why this perk shaves off 1.4. It's meant to help survivors. That's the point. It would still take 12.6 seconds to cleanse a totem. Saying that even with TotH you usually only ever stop a survivor at the last possible second is prejudicial, anecdotal and in no way represents what actually happens during most matches. It's a bad argument.
However, the speed increase was only included as an added incentive to actually, you know, cleanse totems. It's not the focus of the perk and if it was found to be too oppressive, could be easily be removed when the perk is tested. Ie: once actual data can be evaluated. Dismissing it prior to that based on feels would be premature.
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@Chickenchaser said:
If you can't find totems use a map. totems Are easy to find anyway. You can already cleanse totems at lightning speed. A 10% increase would be insanity. And how is ruin OP? survivors power thru ruin like it's not even there.
No, just no.
Yes, survivors can use maps, if they have them and the add-on that lets them track killer possessions. This perk doesn't even come close to the level of power a map that can do that provides, which is why I'm not sure why this perk would even register as problematic.
A 10% speed increase reduces the cleanse speed from 14 seconds to 12.6 seconds. That's not insane. That's not even strong.
However, the perk is designed to be an information perk over everything else and numbers can be tweaked. If a cleanse speed increase is too much, remove it. If 32 meters is too close, increase it. (Or maybe even reduce it. Make it so you have to be very close to the hex totem to know it's there. Of course, that runs the risk of turning the perk into a pinpoint hex totem radar). That's what the PTR is for. Numbers can be adjusted to make sure things maintain a nice balance.
The point is, I think the survivors that need it could use a few more tools to help them with totems. Only survivors that have an interest in actually cleansing the totems on the map would run this perk, so most high-ranked survivors would not be running it. (also, not sure where you heard ruin is OP and why you bothered to bring that up. Nowhere in the original post does it suggest it is).
Of course, if this perk were to be introduced, survivors would lose the few excuses for not cleansing totems that are already used. What I'm suggesting is eliminating every reason a survivor would have to not cleanse totems.
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@Nea_Death_Experience said:
Tbh man Small game is good and your perk would pop all the time. People just need to learn totem spawns and not be dumb.
Plus extra perks would ######### on ruin which is already destroyed so fast in most matches.
Survivor and killer mains complain about everything. The ones who play both generally have a better perception of the issues.
The perk only lights up when near a hex perk, so it wouldn't 'pop all the time' as you're suggesting. I'm thinking you may have misunderstood how the perk would work, though I thought I explained things pretty clearly in the original post.
Also, I agree that Small game is a good perk. You could use both of the perks together if you wanted. However, the two perks would perform different functions. Small Game helps you find totems where Jinx Sense would inform you of how many totems are left on the map and if any of those totems are hex (when you're close).
Lastly, most good high ranked survivors would not run this perk. They already know how to play and don't need any more information about totems. So, Ruin wouldn't be destroyed any faster in most high-ranked matches. However, it would (likely) be destroyed faster during low-ranked matches. I don't think that's really that bad a thing.
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@Nea_Death_Experience said:
Tbh man Small game is good and your perk would pop all the time. People just need to learn totem spawns and not be dumb.
Plus extra perks would ######### on ruin which is already destroyed so fast in most matches.
Survivor and killer mains complain about everything. The ones who play both generally have a better perception of the issues.
Good survivors wouldn't need to run this perk, so I don't think Ruin would go down any faster than it does now (against high ranked survivors).
Also, not sure what you mean by 'would pop all the time'. It would only 'pop' when near a hex perk. There's generally only 1 hex perk per game unless the killer is running haunting grounds. Then it might 'pop' twice. So, all the time? No. Maybe you misunderstood how the perk works?
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I love how people say that NOED rewards bad players. It's like they actually believe it too!
NOED does one thing and one thing only. Punishes bad/lazy players. NOED can only activate if the survivors allow it to. Period. If a group of survivors are too bad or too lazy to be bothered with destroying the totems on the map and choose to take the risk of running into NOED, then they deserve what's coming to them. They chose to gamble on the killer not running it and sometimes, they're going to lose that bet. But, the killer isn't to blame, the survivors are!
Stop blaming your deaths on NOED or 'bad killers' because you die after the gates are powered. You want a nerf to NOED? Destroy the totems and I promise, that'll nerf the crap out of it. Otherwise, stop whining already.
Destroying totems is not hard and doesn't take that long. If you're not familiar enough with the area, bring Small Game and/or maps until you learn. (IE: get better at the game). Once you're familiar enough with the maps, you can single-handedly take down every single totem in every game you play and never have to worry about NOED again. If you choose not to, that's on you.
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Definitely looks like the SB exploit. The most you can do is report it whenever you see it and hope they get banned. It's not an ideal solution but it's the best we got. Odds are, there will be a fix during the next update (probably when the Freddy rework goes live).
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There's no need to include free DLC with the game. Splinters already exist within the game that give people without the DLC the ability to play many of the killers they don't already own. Between the ones the game comes with and splinters found in the occasional bloodweb, new players have access to many ways to experience the game before deciding if they want to spend any more of their money.
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Increasing the number of hooks is pointless. If a survivor needs to be hooked twice (or in second stage on the hook), then they were going to die on their next hook anyway, making the ebony mori obsolete at that point.
Though I'm not opposed to making a change to it either. Ebony Mori's are very powerful and an argument can be made for too powerful.
My suggestion would be to add a functionality similar to The Pig's bear traps. You can't use an Ebony Mori until a generator has been completed, at which point you can kill one person (if they had already been hooked once). Then, you can't kill another survivor until after another gen has been completed.
What this accomplishes is it keeps the Killer from snowballing out of control immediately. They literally couldn't kill anyone until the first gen is complete. Also, it allows some counterplay for the survivors because the more generators that get done, the less opportunities for the killer to use his mori. For example, if I'm using an ebony mori and I just killed my first survivor with it with 1 generator remaining, at most I can kill one more survivor since it only activates once a generator has been completed. This change would allow the mori to still be extremely powerful (more powerful than the Ivory Mori) with the potential of killing multiple (or all) survivors, without completely favoring the killer.
The only downside to this is it would encourage gen rushing. However, considering that survivors are dying and being removed entirely from the match, gen rushing with 3 or 2 survivors remaining is far less of an issue. Just my 2 cents, were Ebony Mori's to receive any changes.
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This has never really bothered me as a killer. In fact, I'll generally get a chuckle out of it, thinking 'Well, that's one way to escape. lol' It's just not that big a deal to me.
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So, how many OoO survivors have you run into in the last few weeks? I've seen one, pretty much just as I predicted and it was a Laurie trying to get her achievement. Ghostface is less prominent now and less survivors are running the perk. This entire thread has been nothing but complaining about a problem that never really existed in the first place.
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The simple fact that we can unlock the majority of the killers, survivors and cosmetics without spending a single cent beyond the base game is already extraordinarily generous and the prices for all of them with RL cash are definitely fair. I don't see any need to adjust how the shop is currently set. Just my 2cents.
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When I first started, I thought that ranks mattered. I was so innocent back in those days.
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What you've just said...is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point, in your rambling, incoherent response, were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
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I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful, but many these suggestions are just really awful and would really harm the game were they to be implemented.
For starters, people need to get out of the mindset that there are 'must-have' perks. I haven't run BBQ on a killer in a good while and lately I've been preferring Pop over Ruin. Ruin doesn't need to be removed, there just needs to be more alternatives and possibly counters to it. Such as 'Whispers' style perk for survivors when they're near an active totem.
All survivors having free DS would be kind of terrible. It would absolutely force killers into slug builds, which is completely contradictory to what you're advocating for. IE: More build variety.
All killers having a free Mori for every match would also be pretty terrible, basically because it would encourage tunneling and dramatically favor the killer in most games.
I also have to disagree about the survivors and restricting them on what they can bring into a match. We should be exploring options to incentivize survivors to bring in a variety of builds without putting restrictions on them.
I will say though that I agree that some changes can be made to make the game better overall. Increasing the time it takes to complete generators as well as increasing the time survivors stay on the hook I think would be a good start. Give people a time to actually play the game before it ends in 3 minutes. Not entirely sure about added objectives but..baby steps.
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@sorrowen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/575738#Comment_575738
Survivor is boring and easy
A simple 'no' would have sufficed.
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If he's crawling out of the game with DS still activated, you accept you lost and move on. You can't and shouldn't be able to stop every single contingency. If it reaches that point and they hit their DS, you've lost. Accept it.
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It's amazing people are complaining about DS now. 60 seconds of armor? Risk free? I'm not sure what game these people are playing but it certainly isn't DBD.
Assuming you aren't tunneling, it shouldn't be too difficult to find another survivor to focus on while the other gets rescued. If you're good enough at the game where you not only down and hook a different survivor but find the original unhooked survivor and down them in less than 60 seconds, then just wait a bit for DS to expire. You're already applying extreme pressure and are clearly in a winning position. If you get hit by DS, it's on you.
This is like survivors complaining about noed. If you die to it, it's because you allowed it to activate by not cleansing totems. If you get hit by DS, it's because you were impatient and didn't wait 60 seconds for the perk to deactivate.
Seriously, I see more people complaining about perks on both sides where it's the people complaining about it that are the ones that hold all the cards as to whether the perk is even used it.
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@Rasinbran said:
Whoever defends noed is some killer that struggles to end the game before the gens are complete and want some type of reward for being a failure. It's the same reason why you'd use unrelenting, it's because you aren't the best and getting actual skill isn't what you are about.
You just want some training wheels to slap on to assist you while you stay bad.
Whoever complains about noed is some survivor that gen rushed and wants to be rewarded for bad play while failing to take the time to locate and cleanse totems and then dies once the gens are complete. It's the same reason why you'd bring insta heal med kits, it's because you aren't the best and getting actual skill isn't what you are about.
Now of course, both of these are incredibly stupid arguments but it's easy to turn it around to fit whatever agenda you like. Maybe try adding something constructive to the conversation instead of whining about the players defending the perk. Like, illustrate why you think it's a problem, show some data to back up your claims and then propose potential solutions.
Also, for the record, I don't think noed awards bad killers, only punishes bad survivors. Remember, if you die to noed, it's because you allowed it to activate. If you die before then, it wasn't because of noed. I'm still trying to figure out how it's even remotely a problem when the perk is activated entirely at the survivors discretion.
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Playing as the Killer vs SWF is the hardest role. Then I'd say it's almost a toss up between solo survivor and killer but if probably still have to edge on the side of the killer being slightly harder. Then solo survivor, then swf.
The only reason I think killer is slightly harder than solo survivor is because every survivor is fundamentally the same where each killer is unique in how they kill. It's all subjective though. Some people are going to simply have an easier time playing killer and vice versa
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I think I have to disagree that the dynamic between Ghost Face and OoO needs any kind of change. OoO is definitely problematic for Ghost Face as it's an exceptional hard counter to him to be sure. However, like was said, OoO wasn't really run much until Ghost Face came about and it's only being run now because Ghost Face is the new hotness. Once the Ghost Face hype has died down and various killers are being played more actively again, the problem will resolve itself. You'll run into less survivors playing OoO because they'll be running into less killers playing Ghost Face. Once that happens, the occurrences of encountering this particular hard counter should greatly diminish.
Also, It's okay to have certain perks counter certain killers, even hard counter them. Spirit is one of the most powerful killers in the game right now but you run Iron Will against her and she has a fraction of the potential, making her power far less effective (almost detrimental) and the same can be said about Ghost Face and OoO.
Now I will say that this is all speculative. If when Ghost Face becomes less prominent in the meta and yet people are still consistently running OoO, then perhaps the devs should consider looking into a change with how the two interact. Until then though, I think it's okay for OoO to hard counter Ghost Face. However, if my speculation is correct, once Ghost Face becomes less prominent, OoO will go back to being rarely played.
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I had a daily ritual for Spirit yesterday and I've not put many points in her. She literally has no Ruin and only Rank 1 of PGTW. So, that's what I used and I'll be honest, I was surprised at just how good even Rank 1 of that perk is. It definitely prevented the gens from getting done and only the final survivor escaped through the hatch (mainly because I don't bother slugging. I figure if they find the hatch before me and/or get through an exit gate, then gg).
I had a blast with her, playing with lower ranked perks and PGTW definitely pulled it's weight at slowing the game down.
Now, better than Ruin? Not sure I would go that far. As good as? Still not sure I would go that far. But it's close and may even be as good as. It's a fine alternative and/or addition to Ruin.
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I think protection hits and/or escaping the killer should add MoM charges. Once a survivor has been in a chase for X amount of time (lets say 6 seconds or so) and then breaks chase, the perk would gain a charge. This incentivizes survivors running the perk to not only protect other survivors but encourages them to attempt to draw the killer's attention, further playing into the role of protector. It awards skilled play as you have to actually successfully escape the killer to charge the perk, so simply running the killer around for a long time without ever breaking chase does nothing. You also have to be the one actively being chased, so simply running near a killer that's chasing another survivor to activate a 'quick chase' doesn't actively charge the perk.
At that point it's just a number tweak. If escaping the killer makes charging the perk too easy, a simple number adjustment is all it would need. That being said, I think the 3 tokens* it requires now should be sufficient. Just my 2 cents.
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And bring back hatch standoffs? No thank you.
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Ehh, there's definitely some arguing going on but threads like this are good for healthy discussion so both sides can illustrate their viewpoints. I'll be the first to admit when I'm wrong but so far I haven't seen anything compelling to suggest that NOED is actually a problem.
The most problematic aspect about it is that it's no fun to die to it and in that regard, I actually agree. It sucks getting that last generator done and then getting spotted by the killer, chased and then downed in one shot from full health. It definitely leaves a bad taste in my mouth when playing survivor. At the same time though, I have to acknowledge that I could have dedicated myself to eliminating that threat and the fact that I didn't is on me. There comes a point where I have to take responsibility for my own playstyle and stop looking for scapegoats to blame my losses on. At least, that's my take on it.
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I'm not entirely sure what camping has to do with NOED. Camping largely counters itself. It's a self defeating tactic and not viable as a game-winning strategy for any killer. In fact, the only time camping becomes remotely relevant is after the gens have already been completed, at which point it's more about trying to secure just one more kill. If a killer camps before then, they don't need to be countered because they already are, to themselves.
NOED on the other hand has a legitimate counter to it. It's a killer perk that only activates if the survivors allow it. That means survivors have to choose their priorities. If they prioritize doing generators instead of slowing down to take care of totems, then they choose to run the risk of dealing with NOED. If they choose to cleanse totems, then they choose to prolong the game slightly but won't have to worry about NOED. It's a killer perk that's entirely at the discretion of the survivors.
I'll also reiterate, if survivors choose to cleanse dull totems and die as a result, then the argument of having it award bad killers falls apart. You died because you got outplayed, not because a killer ran NOED. Hard to blame an inactive perk.
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@TRB124 said:
“Just cleanse totems”
Yeah sure, i’ll go totem hunting around the map while there is a billy or nurse or any killer who puts huge pressure on survivors. Cleansing them dull totems for the endgame that I’ll likely not be alive for if I don’t focus on gens.
It’s really frustrating to be able to just about pull through to the endgame while the killer is pressuring us heavily. Only to be rewarded with being downed with one hit. One perk alone should not be able to turn a 1k into a 3-4K in the space of less than 60 seconds, regardless of whether it’s a hex or not.
Likewise it’s also frustrating to go down to it to a killer who overall performed poorly. At least in this scenario part of the blame can be put on survivors on not cleansing totems as the poor killer would of had little map pressure.
So you're argument is, cleansing totems makes your experience as a survivor inconvenient? Maybe even more difficult? That sounds like a 'you' problem tbh.
If you die to NOED, you should have cleansed totems. If you die because you are cleansing totems, then you deserve to lose that game.
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I actually tend to agree with the OP. NOED isn't a problem. Is it a crutch perk? Sure, but so is Adrenaline and a ton of other perks. Besides, NOED can be countered so it's not worth crying about.
I remember having a conversation with JenDenise during one of her streams and we were debating NOED. I effectively said the same thing as the OP. If you don't want to worry about it, just cleanse the 5 totems. Her counter argument was, 'Sure, let me just spend all game hunting down the 5 totems in Lery's' she said sarcastically. My rebuttle was, 'Bring a map that can track killer possessions. Problem solved' to which she did not respond.
I stand by that statement. If NOED is such a problem for you, bring a map that can track killer possessions. You can single-handedly take out every totem on the map in less than 2 minutes. If you have a respectable understanding of totem spawn locations, you can get by with Small Game or nothing at all. The point is, the survivors have the option to destroy the totems before NOED ever comes into play.
And honestly, if your argument against that is 'well, we might end up wasting 75 seconds' then all I can do is shake my head and play the world's smallest violin.
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I agree with most of what's being said here. It doesn't make much sense why the obsession needs to change. The only benefit I can see from the survivor's perspective is if a game starts with no obsession, the killer is not going to know if anyone is running DS until after it's been used. Otherwise, it seems to be a pretty meaningless change that as the OP stated, nobody has asked for.
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I'm of the opinion that if you are playing a Dying Light build, then ensure that you do not tunnel once you've killed your obsession. The perk will never deactivate and you won't have an issue. Problem avoided.
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I've given this a fair bit of thought and I agree, his power needs to be reworked. I don't know if he needs a complete overhaul to the point where he's a totally different killer but definitely needs a rework.
What I'd do is make him a 115% movespeed killer. Then change his power so that when you activate it, (and take these numbers with a grain of salt, testing would be required) the initial use of the power would slow you down to say 105% movespeed. But, you start to gain speed over time and it builds up so in a matter of moments you're back to regular run speed and shortly after that, you're running really fast, say capping out at 120% or whatever it needs to be. Then, make it so window hopping and pallet vaulting only works when you've exceeded your base 115% movespeed. This way pallets and windows are more effective against Legion since he has to ramp his power up before being able to vault them but can still circumvent them once he's built up the speed to do so.
This would be both a buff and a nerf, since his base movespeed would be up with all the other 115% killers. This also gives both the survivors and the killer some more skill potential since now pallets and windows need a bit more forethought in how they can be used/circumvented. The overall activation of his power will likely need to be increased to make up for the fact that it has to ramp up to it's full effect, since the first bit of his power is actually him running slower and being unable to vault.
The second thing I think I'd change is Deep Wounds. As someone has pointed out, all you need is Bloodhound and just stare at the floor until they have no choice but to stop and heal. No counter play there. I'd make it so Deep Wounds timer does not decrease while in the killer's terror radius. This incentives survivors to actually escape so they can begin healing and doesn't penalize them for breaking a chase, which is what they're supposed to do. However, I'd also add in skill checks for mending and treat the mending similar to snapping out of it. You need to do it all in one go and succeed all the skill checks. Failing a skill check would decrease the bleedout timer significantly, reset the mending process and give away your position. Also, mending would be quite noisy so if a killer is actively looking for you and you choose to mend while inside their terror radius, it's risky as they'll likely hear you. Perhaps allow Nurse's Calling to work on it.
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Thank you all very much for the response, that makes a lot of sense.