dezzmont
dezzmont
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@dspaceman20 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1884771#Comment_1884771
I Think this could work but deliverance? Is deliverance and DS really overpowered? Plus i wouldn't consider Deliverance a second chance perk since its dependent on getting a safe unhook first.
Deliverance being exempt is a problem because it allows, at least on the first hook, the killer to not be able to use hook pressure to try to snowball going into another chase. Again, on its own its fine, but combined with say... DS it gets a lil gross because you can unhook yourself right in the killer's face and then stab em, or stab em despite not being tunneled overall.
You don't see it as often as DS-Unbreakable, but that isn't a strike against it. If either of those two were nerfed (especially unbreakable), it would pretty much instantly replace them as meta. It already is borderline meta.
@Vicc said:
blablabla you're ok to nerf NOED too ?
NOED is often complained about but isn't actually the equivalent to DS and the like, that is more Ruin, Pop, ect: Perks that allow the game to suddenly last longer than they should. As has been pointed out, 90% of these perks are designed specifically to not work together because extending the difficulty of an objective self-synergizes, which is the entire problem with second chance perks.
NOED is more akin to say.. post-nerf BNP in that it is more niche and does something important: It keeps the game exciting and avoiding a 'lockout' scenario. DBD isn't fun if none of the survivors ever go down at a bad time and NOED forces some hook pressure. The Blue Turtleshell of DBD: Prevents one side from pulling way too far ahead.
It actually is a terrible perk, and nerfing it wouldn't do anything. Its main issue is that it sorta does its job very poorly because instead of creating a tense moment it actually kills all hook pressure you got because survivors just leave. This is why 'final boss' builds don't tend to do well except as a meme. It could do with a rework-buff hybrid to be more focused in what it does rather than forcing survivors out of the game, probably removing the exposed effect and making the killer more subtly terrifying in endgame so survivors will still feel like they can try to go for the endgame rescue it likely would force.
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@dspaceman20 said:
I have a few questions and concerns.
If this were to happen wouldn't there need to be a compromise with the killers to minimize the amount of tunneling, slugging and camping they do? I mean thats the reason why Survivors take second chance perks right, as a way to handle these strategies better?
Also I have to ask, when is a second chance perk justified, and when is it ok to use a second chance perk? When is it that using them makes the game fair?
"Wouldn't there need to be a compromise...?"
No. No there ######### wouldn't.
When something on one side is blatantly not behaving correctly, you shouldn't demand an unneeded concession to be willing to give up that thing that isn't working correctly. This is blatant Whataboutism that mysteriously doesn't happen when its something relevant to a over-preforming killer tool: No survivor main was offering up DS-Unbreakable in exchange for undying-ruin, but for SOME REASON when people point out that DS-Unbreakable has a similar unhealthy effect on the game where it screws one side over without any real interaction, survivors start demanding concessions.
No. You do not NEED something that deals with slugs AND tunneling. Know why?
Because those are the two main strategies killers have to win. Its just good play. By asking for some way for the killer both choosing to eliminate you and choosing to NOT eliminate you to not incapacitate you, your asking for invulnerability.
Killers in DBD win matches by one of two ways: A quick elimination, or by pressuring multiple survivors. Being able to freely slug is a vital tool for the second. If two survivors string together a chase on a killer one after another, the survivors don't get to complain the killer isn't dropping a chase to hook, because the killer can only win via snowball in most matches. You aren't complaining about something unfair, your complaining about the killer making choices on time management, one of the most basic elements of the game it takes to win, and its super gross.
If you don't want to get slugged, and don't want to get picked up after being hooked, you want to be invulnerable after being hooked no matter what you do, which is obviously stupid, and its why basically everyone who plays DBD, survivor or killer, wants DS-Unbreakable gone: Its way too good because its 1 minute of effective invulerability that lets you do dumb stuff like a gen or totem right in front of a killer's face with the killer having no real counterplay to it: they either have to puppy guard you for a full minute or let you get up and do the objective anyway scot free.
From a killer side, its just not fun for survivors to just blatantly play this way, because it clearly isn't how the game is meant to work, the killer is meant to be able to protect objectives and these two defensive perks combine into a dumb offensive one. But its also lame from a survivor perspective because if your not running these two perks your at a MASSIVE disadvantage and it crowds out more interesting and diverse builds to have 75% of your perk slots pre-decided.
And it isn't even 'destroy these two perks.' Its simply that these perks INTERACT unhealthily. DS on its own is fine and not very good. Unbreakable on its own is fine and not very good. But together they are the most toxic S+++ god tier perks in the game. So some method of making them not work together is critical.
For example, the commonly suggested DS sidegrade that makes it BETTER at anti-tunnel but removes all of its offensive power: It lasts 30 seconds, does not tick down if your in a chase or on the ground, instantly goes away if you start to do a gen, self care, do a totem, unhook someone, go in a locker, or heal someone else. Boom, now you literally CAN'T be tunneled with this perk ever, the killer can't even slug you and wait a minute to get rid of it anymore! But you also can't advance the game ever, so you can't sit down and do a totem in the killer's face confident unbreakable, because by definition if you do that your not being tunneled as the killer is just protecting their objective now, and the killer now knows they can pick you up 100% safely.
Boom. Better in every way you allegedly care about. Worse in every way the killers care about. Everyone, in theory, wins here right? Unless you really just want to be able to use DS-Unbreakable to do a gen and don't reaaalllly care about being tunneled.
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Unbreakable on its own is a completely fine perk.
For it to do literally anything requires you to: A: Lose a chase, which you kinda don't want, :B Have the killer not hook you immediately, and C: Have the killer not near you when you stand up so that you actually cause harm to killer tempo rather than instantly going down again at no cost to the killer. In addition, D: it can only be used once per-match.
For it to proc generally requires a teammate instantly getting in another chase meaning your giving killer more tempo and snowball potential, which is rough because its an anti-snowball perk. If it comes in clutch because the killer downed a bunch of people in a row and literally can't hook fast enough, your probably going to lose despite it. So it is kinda just... not very good...
*On its own.*
The problem with unbreakable is that it contributes to a 'critical mass' of 'down negation' effects. Specifically, in combination with DS it creates a period of time where the killer basically can't do anything to you besides a very minor match tempo loss you don't really care about, meaning you can make absurdly risky plays right in the killer's face, which goes against the spirit of both perks. On its own, Unbreakable is nothing but an anti-snowball tool that lets you get one last burst of air into a game that was already choked out. With DS, its probably one of the most toxic and non-thematic perk combos in the game and is solidly S++ tier because it effectively gives the survivor team 4.5 hook states per survivor, rather than 3.
The problem isn't just this critical recovery mass, where every down-negation perk synergizes and gets more and more effect. It ALSO is because it creates a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' problem for killers. Killers have two ways to win: efficiently tunnel out a survivor VERY fast to get a tempo lead on survivors before they get to 2 gens to make it so they can pressure survivors faster than they repair by just chasing one, or by effectively pressuring more than one survivor at once via things like slugging, interfering with unhooks, multi-chases, ect.
The problem is Slugging is easily the best of those options and Unbreakable punishes slugging so hard. So killers can't multi-pressure. But DS also is very strong anti-tunnel, so killers can't eliminate a player fast. So killers have no real option besides winning an extra 2 (in theory 4 but even with DS unbreakable once you get down to 2 survivors even with 1 gen its kinda over) chases as the survivors get an extra life despite not doing anything to earn it.
So its pretty clear these two perks need to be made either non-compatable (A theoretical 'heroic' tag for perks for example, would make sense, for perks that alter the killer's win condition and provide defense against one of the methods the killer uses to win the game, so you can't stack them at all), or the function of these perks need to change. Together they still have counterplay, but the counterplay is 'be so absurdly good at the game you can win despite needing two entire extra chases.
The common fan suggestion for changing DS fixes a lot of problems with the perk and makes it better at stopping the unfun thing it is meant to stop while also making it less of an 'offensive tool': Make its timer not reduce in chase or if your down, make its timer instantly hit 0 if you press M1 on anything besides self recovery while down, so that its perfect anti-tunnel but the second you start advancing the game its off. This would mean you can't use it with unbreakable for 1 minute of immunity to do dumb stuff in the killer's face, the killer would have a very good idea if you COULD DS so you can't use the threat of DS to get a free unbreakable, but can still use both perks together to force the killer to chase at least one other person before they get you out of the game.
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Undying-Ruin's actual problem, is more that tri-gens are actually not super interactive and some maps have some truly disgusting tri-gens. Like on Slinger's map for example you can do a tri-gen when all 3 gens are literally in sight of each other within your terror radius. Obviously that is hard to fix on the smaller maps, and its intentionally harder to do a gen without anyone going down as they go down (part of 'rubber band' balancing that tends to be something people think they dislike but actually love because it keeps games competitive, as long as the rubber band doesn't constantly snap you in the face) but it is kinda intense right now.
But that is a super tough nut to crack because its actively good for the game that the killer generally knows the areas of interest to the survivors while not being able to know exactly where they are, and that the map 'shrinks' as the game goes on. And Totems as a side objective to slow the game are actively... not good or fun for the same reason. If to finish the last gen you kinda wander all over the map that defeats the purpose of the 'global objectives' of the hook and gen that let all players know where people will NEED to be. Its part of why I think undying has aura read, despite being an objective you kinda gotta get totems make the game everyone wandering around nowhere for a bit and the aura read makes doing a totem as hard as contesting a gen.
I do like the effect having a very reliable new ruin has, as it makes killers applying pressure feel rewarding, but I am not sure ruin as a stall as a totem element rather than weaker static perk (or, even better, a base kit effect stackable with a perk) makes sense. Totems are the most interesting and fun when they are the survivor being 'defensive' rather than offensive: trying to find NOED to enable a hook rescue, or trying to find DH before the killer gets 1-2 more hooks and kills you all trivially.
@th3 said:
The issue I have is when I go to find totems the killer isn't just sitting around afk. They are patrolling gens and often times slugging repeatedly at 5 gens. This results in an untenable situation for solo survivor teams. When two teammates are hooked/slugged the priority isn't to be doing totems. It's to be doing saves/resetting the team. Doing totems at that point is detrimental.
I've been recording my games and every game with ruin undying involves slugging at the start. My teammates try to go for saves and it comes to a point where totems cannot be done. Even when totems do get done it turns out you did the ruin totem for the 3rd time and you have to go look for it again while the killer is slugging everyone else and it kills your team. It's made a majority of my games with ruin undying extremely unfun despite me equipping perks to help find totems and helping my team.
While there is something to be said for 'Survivors are already kinda on a tight time shift and generally probably shouldn't play around NOED and try to power through ruin-undying based on map' I am absolutely, positively, unequivocally, against ever framing 'It is really strong if the killer gets two hooks at the same time' as a thing we should ever care about in balance.
The killer getting two hooks is never a common event unless the survivors really mess up in a way that isn't just 'outplayed' but 'active incompetence.' The timing structure of the walk to the hook makes it extremely difficult (In theory if two people go down AT the same time one person should be instant rescuing that first unhook anyway, the only time it is appropriate to insta-rescue) and it already should be considered a 'soft loss' state for survivors. Like your lost should be assumed at that point (and as a solo you should instantly start playing to the hatch) unless the killer makes a mistake. The game should be firmly in their control from that point forward because someone made a BIG whoopsie poopsie, like staying grouped vs a Myers or charging a bubba to unhook in their face.
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NOED is a Blue Turtleshell, in that you don't feel good about it, but you like the game more for it existing than not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFfga8-3SZI&ab_channel=ExtraCreditsLike... the logic on why NOED exists is EXACTLY the same: You want to as a survivor just trash the killer, doing gens crazy fast with no one getting hooked, because that is the objective the game tells you to do, but if you do that the game isn't fun for anyone because the killer is getting stomped and your not really having many interactions. NOED forces the game to have a 'high point' moment for killers who can't play consistently. So in that sense, yes, it rewards bad play, but it does so in a way that makes the game better even if your against that player because you want at least SOMETHING to happen in the match.
Heck, we even have a Super Horn analogy here: If your a very skilled player rather than rushing out into first from the get go, you try to store a Horn so you have it when your in first later, which allows you to ignore the shell while STILL keeping the race interactive because the best player rather than going way off into the distance ahead is interacting with everyone as they get back to first.
Likewise, in DBD, eliminating or at least locating totems early is a really smart strategy which stops the gens from being done quiiiite as fast and gives the killer more time to interact with people or setup or whatever. It may not be the optimal strategy all the time (NOED is pretty rare now a days as most people understand its a bad perk) but if your worried about it you have a method of counter play that costs you almost nothing and just requires you to outplay the killer ever so slightly harder.
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We can have a conversation about if it is good for the game to be designed to allow constant visual interface screws to be stacked on the one player who is in first person, but those are sins far outside what you have control over.
If it is a legitimate mechanic that exists in the game's design, use it. The only time somethimg is a dick move is if it serves no gameplay purpose (teabagging at a loop to psyche out is fine, teabagging at a gate isn't) or if it legitimately breaks the game and is an exploit.
There is also an argument that anything created via scrub culture is a dick move (ex: bringing keys just because you know survivors whined enough about moris to get em nerfed first) but even that is ok imo and blame should be laid at the developer's feet there.
Just be aware that you are putting your big boy pants on. You can't cry you got hurt after forcing someone gto play full tackle football against ya and realizing they are bigger than you.
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Do not loop by the hook if someone is hooked.
DO NOT LOOP BY THE HOOK IF SOMEONE IS HOOKED.
Your number one job as a survivor in a chase where the killer decides to commit is to get them away from hook. In addition, you don't want to go down near someone already hooked, ESPECIALLY a basement hook, because killers need to snowball to win and the main way to do that is to get a slug or a basement hook. They don't even need to really camp at that point, they just know if a rescue happens 3 survivors are being pressured and they likely can keep all 3 pressured until they eliminate one, and then constantly pressure 2, and then eliminate them both. As a survivor it is ABSOLUTELY your job to not force the killer to tunnel the team and, in fact, force it to be the wrong play.
When in doubt, do a gen.
Watch the survivor bar, and if you see someone get injured you know your safe.
Count to 30 before going for a hook rescue. You got a full minute, the killer needs time to leave the hook even if they decide to not camp, and you need to send a message you WILL punish camping. This is especially critical if an early hook happened, because, again, killers need to snowball to win and you need to sell the fact that you will 100% trade a survivor's life for 3 gens so the killer CAN'T camp the survivor and win.
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@Hex_UrbanEvasion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1843481#Comment_1843481
Okay clearly I need someone to explain what the [BAD WORD] deal is with [BAD WORD] keys. At this point, I don't bring them into a match unless I need it for a challenge, and even then, I'm extremely reluctant because I'd like to actually play and not just get my [BAD WORD] kicked in because a killer thinks I'm going to... I don't even know. Herd the whole survivor team out through the hatch? Most of the time, if I have a challenge like that, I just have to get it done in a farming match.
And please don't tell me that if I want to use a key, I need to "git gud." I've tried using them, and I've been summarily tunneled, mori'd, and hit with Franklin's. I get it, killers hate them. I just don't see why it makes them lose their minds.
And I'd really like to have characters in outfits I like without them assuming I'm in comms or looking to bully them. Same [BAD WORD] happens, only not the Franklin's because my clothes aren't going to let me escape while the killer isn't paying attention.
Edit: Upon reviewing your comment, I realize that I am reacting negatively to a reaction to a negative experience. So no, I'm not mad at the killers and I don't see them as subhuman. They just drive me bonkers when they do this [BAD WORD] because I have no idea what's going on, nor what could possibly make them want to punish me for bringing in an object that, at this point, is just a source of fear for me.
The reason killers act with such disgust towards keys is that keys completely change the rules of how killers play the game.
Killers normally win via applying pressure to the survivors and preventing them from efficiently repairing gens by reducing their overall repair power and forcing them to focus on other things, like chases and rescues. A killer can't defend every single gen, but they can stop all 5 gens from getting done if they are clever.
Keys ANIHILATE this dynamic. A duo with a key who play cleverly are a duo the killer basically can't pip against, and will struggle to safety pip against, because suddenly the killer goes from needing to ensure 3 gens aren't completed, to needing to ensure 5 of the 7 aren't completed, which is a completely unrealistic count. What is worse is that it messes with the freedom of the killer to try to eliminate players: suddenly punishing bad survivor play like unhook farming actually is bad for the killer, which means key holders can be way more reckless and in your face than a regular survivor in an unfun way, because you get in a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' position: Do you punish unhook farming? The key duo doesn't care if you kill the people they are matched with, they WANT them to die on some level. Do you not punish the farm? Ok, the survivors win conventionally by doing 5 gens because your pressuring 0 survivors after wasting time unhooking.
Its just awful, and so most killers pretty reasonably do everything in their power to kill the key-holder as their main objective, both to discourage survivors from bringing keys, and because they literally have to because if you have a key by two kills the killer loses!
And this style of play isn't fun for the killer at all. And unlike Moris, which also create an unfun 'avoid chases at any cost' playstyle for survivors, there is no 'out' for the killer. Games with keys don't end fast, its an exercise in teeth pulling and you having to be this maximal sweaty stressed out jerk if you want to win cleanly.
This is why so many killers were pissed about the mori change but not the key change happening: Moris weren't a great counter to keys victory wise, but they allowed you to 'punish' survivors for trying to do something so awful to you: 'sure you brought in your key, but you lost and depipped with 5k bloodpoints, get the hell out of my lobby and think about what you tried to pull.'
So there is both an in game strategy (You NEED to get rid of the key) and a meta-strategy (Killers want less keys in the game, so killers overall collectively punish bringing a key).
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@Hex_UrbanEvasion said:
You know, you howl about the mori change, but they were literally just used to punish survivors the killer was mad at. It's not like they were fun. They just knocked a third of the time off your match, and presumably, let you murder that pink-haired Nea or Steve with a key that you were grinding your gears about when you saw them in the lobby. No idea if they're actually a SWF death squad out to get you, no idea if they're even good players, no idea if the key is even good enough to open a hatch or just a Broken Key with some aura add-ons. You read the room and freaked out.
Moris were a panic button and a way to bully someone else before you could get bullied. The change is fine.
I like how ######### up this comment is.
You in the same breath recognize the emotions that cause people to really not like certain things the survivors do that radically shift the win condition of the game, yet deny the validity of wanting the ability to do it yourself. It feels like you think of killer players as subhuman: your more upset with the REACTION to a negative play experience than a negative play experience.
If you bring a key to allow you and a friend to escape despite only doing 3 gens instead of 5, why should the killer not be allowed to bring a tool that lets them remove you from the game at 2 won chases instead of 3? Keys remove more game time from the survivor objective, assuming a duo, 40% even ignoring gates, compared to Moris removing 33%.
While I think Moris are broken, acting like killers don't have good reason to be MASSIVELY upset by this very obvious preferential treatment towards survivors here sucks and is scummy.
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@Hex_UrbanEvasion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1842335#Comment_1842335
That last bit is something that gets ignored in a lot of these discussions. For the person being camped, it sucks. Not just because you're gonna die and it's boring, but you finally got into a match and your time was wasted and you're gonna get [BAD WORD] all for bloodpoints.
Here's the other thing significant. The real trouble with campers isn't normal killers trying to guard a hook from a bunch of nutcase SWFs, it's the killers who play with malicious intent, and camping is their chosen method to ruin the game for others. The Insidious Basement Bubbas. You're right that Insidious is the key, here. I pretty much always run Kindred because of them now. That's how often I've encountered them between ranks thirteen and four. Some of them are red rank and probably stay there by playing other killers, because there's no way they don't depip when they sit in the basement all match. For me, they're the problem to solve. Removing their ability to camp effectively removes their ability to disrupt an entire match. Not only will the (most likely) two people they catch and camp be screwed, the two survivors out there desperately banging out gens before the other two die will. You don't get points for playing gen jockey all match. You just maybe get to live.
Unfortunately, taking out the trash would, in this case, harm normal killers. Ain't that a [BAD WORD].
I would also say taking out the trash here is pretty disproportionate to the real scope of the problem. Getting 'policy facecamped' for no reason first hook of the match sucks, but is in a super tiny fraction of games outside of garbage ranks because it has to be.
That said, if you want to remove the possibility of that happening, you need to 'make room' by increasing the power of hooking in other ways which I think survivors would find even worse, because many targeted solutions just won't work. For example, disabling it when survivors are in a range of a hook will result in an extreme power asymmetry that doesn't solve anything because it would be trivial for survivors to sit just outside and force the killer to leave the area resulting in a free unhook.
To actually solve this issue with any sort of negative reinforcement would require baking so much positive reinforcement into the act of unhooking that you end up with a scenario where rescuing... sorta doesn't help that much? Like I am sure the average killer would be enthused if hooked survivors permanently lost gen repair speed (Sorta... fractionally killing them for pressure purposes) in exchange for having to do all their hooks like Pyramid Head (But worse because they have to take the time to pick up and carry the survivor for longer than it takes a single survivor to unhook them, meaning a big tempo loss) where they just expect an instant unhook, but that would make tri-gens even stronger and sloooow doooooown the game, rather than resulting in survivor 4ks tending to end via snowball, which is kinda what you actually want.
Like hook defense, slugging, ect, have a lot of meta effects that are good, such as how it dramatically benefits the pace of the game. You can try to argue the killer 'is ruining it for their fellow players' but its a competitive game and its no more ruining it for their fellow survivors than trying to corner OTK someone with Hondo from Street Fighter, or using counters to punish players for trying to do long combos. That isn't 'stopping them from playing the game.' Part of MOST competitive games is that if you make a mistake you gotta sit down and just watch.
If the killer was encouraged to actually 12 hook, that drags out the losing phase for survivors in a way they probably actually don't want. Like strategically getting 12 hooked is ideal, but what it actually does is encourage the killer to tunnel down one survivor because they can't pressure multiple survivors at the hook, meaning more tunneling, and then once someone is gone the game gets pretty glacial as they play super defensively, rapidly eliminating someone else and then using the fact 2 survivors don't repair faster than a killer can regress generally to make the game last 20 minutes. You do not want this.
"I am upset with hook camping" is the ultimate example of what game designers talk about when they say that players do not know what they want. Survivors 'wanted' vacuum pallets too because getting hit despite using a pallet feels bad in the moment, but what it actually does for the game is make it so survivors have to care about the killer being close even if they have a pallet and thus makes it so pallets don't auto-reset chases to a certain distance just for existing. Chases not auto-resetting out in distance constantly means chases actually require you to have a clue, and mean good killers can by earning a few meters from a mindgame down you. This in turn affects gen repair, because the starting distance of a chase now matters again because even the weakest pallet isn't an immunity zone, and that actually did stuff like indirectly buff bad killers.
So much stuff can break when making seemingly reasonable changes to core systems that exist for a reason just because you don't like how they feel. Hooking is probably the most integral mechanic to mess with because of how the entire pace of a match is based around it. You take a swing and miss? You make a Deathgarden scenario where literally everyone is unhappy and the game dies.
Again, the devs have been hearing complaints about camping for 4 years, and their conclusion was 'It really isn't as big a problem as you think we are literally tracking hook proximity and finding the killer only tends to stay if survivors aren't doing gens,' and 'Any fix we make at this point will actively break the game and we already lost a lot of money on Deathgarden trying to do just this and it failed primarily because, as it turns out, the killer being unable to camp ######### sucks and makes the game bad for everyone.'
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@honestyoverbias said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1839481#Comment_1839481
So here’s a perfect example of a rank 1 blight who made no effort to leave the hook even with 3 survivors on gens so the idea that the threat of gen progress while they’re camping does not apply. This is no isolated incident, but rather common in higher ranks players, they will risk gens popping if it means they can remove even 1 survivor from the match.
For real, if someone is at rank 1 and your ACTUALLY threatening gens and constantly pop them, the blight won't be at rank 1 for long. So said blight CAN'T be doing that every match. Its actually impossible.
Furthermore, its important to remember that while, yes, some killers may camp 100% of the time and thus auto-lose the game rather than 'correctly' going off the hook... so what? This problem self corrects, and the cure is worse than the disease here. Especially because good survivors tend to NOT assume they will get all 3 hook stages unless they set it up ahead of time for the entire SWF team to have BT.
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Pig definitely has some tilt factor in her power. Survivors with RBTs often make really terrible choices, and often their teammates make really bad choices too.
I don't even use her crouch most matches except to do maybe a very quick TR cancel. The mental pressure the RBTs apply, especially if you have a 'tunnel' upgrade like slow release toxin, is just amazing. So often people with the trap will panic run to boxes even at red ranks when they are in my terror radius, and the box is the only time I consistently see failed skill checks.
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A big request they listened to that was just objectively bad for the game was making it so pallets blocked attacks at any phase of the swing. At game launch, pallets only blocked attacks if near perfectly timed, effectively making them a tool to use that results in you taking damage but getting more effective distance on your on hit speed boost.
This sounds bad, but remember this was back when survivors were much faster, so that let you REALLY haul ass and be on the entire other side of the map. Enduring was pretty mandatory those days.
You could also pre-drop them to cut off an angle, and again because survivors were so fast back then pre-speed and vault nerf, that resulted in a pretty absurd distance gain if the killer had to break or go around.
But despite this being relatively fair with how the game was played at the time (higher survivor speed meant that stealthy play was ironically better, as breaking chases was much easier as you displaced more distance on the killer if you broke LOS and changed directions a few times before they realized what happened and suddenly had a massive area to search, and weaker resources meant it was more important to know how to do this), it was very not intuitive: new players were upset that they used pallets and got hurt. So pallets were made so strong killers basically couldn't hurt you if you threw one, which utterly broke the game and made pallet looping truly ridiculous and survivor utterly braindead.
Eventually this was semi-reverted after the game got so unplayable for killer as a result of pallets basically resetting chases to a 20 meter chase distance every pallet that there was a strike, which forced the devs to make it so that pallets weren't a total safe zone anymore. They didn't seem to completely revert it though, as now its much easier to block a hit while also stunning the killer with a pallet. Which kinda makes sense because this was well after survivor speeds were set to 4.0. But vacuum pallet completely changed DBD's design to go from focusing on hard LOS breaks and misdirects to looping and interacting a lot with the killer over a long period of time while remaining safe. A lot of survivors just flat out never have learned how to break a chase ever because you can get good enough at looping to consistently hold the killer for 10 minutes, and while that takes WAY more skill than it used too its interesting to see how this is biting people in the rear now that maps are getting actual deadzones to help force you to want to play stealthily sometimes again.
Also swivelhook was a big one, and one that was actually a good idea. I was against it at the time, but it grew n me. It still is part of the canon of 'Devs listen to survivor complaints and make QOL changes for them VERY fast while killer QOL takes forever and ever to be 'tested' and tends to be very lackluster or even a way to make the game worse for them, like EGC.
In general its less that the devs do literally what people say (Famously, but perhaps not famously enough, around devstream 37 they basically told people complaining about camping and tunneling to just stop already because any further nerfs to it just won't ever happen, basically a 'Get good' to the community) and will more keep track of major points of community contention and maaaaybe do stuff about it and not necessarily in any order. Like hatch standoffs were a real drag on the game forever and took months to change, and they still haven't really done anything about accessibility issues such as colorblind modes or removing the button mashing element from phase 2 of hooking.
This is subpar, but the 'nerf plz' scrubculture of DBD is strong enough that I do appreciate devs being not very hasty about instantly changing stuff. DBD is one of the worst competitive communities I have seen for even veteran players who are good at the game participating in scrub culture because for them the appeal of the game is kinda just styling on people rather than actually playing an interesting game, often called 'Ochido wannabies' after a streamer who played in this style (And who seems to have cleaned up his act quite a bit after being banned for basically making the community into a cesspool that did this sorta thing, even though his history of this sorta terrible behavior is part of his brand).
Also obviously some DBD players are very delightful. Its just that the community knowledgebase aspect is probably the worst of any game that focuses so much on competitive PVP that I have seen and thus the community's 'mechanical literacy' is very low and thus they don't actually have good feedback to give. And sometimes the bad feedback is on purpose.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1839755#Comment_1839755
To be clear, I think DS could use a buff and the nerf talk is silly. I can pull my killer credentials if you want or just click on my profile.
The game is built where the killer will win any chase. Survivors cannot get away indefinitely. Nerfing DS makes this game hanky panky and I don’t want players on this forum turning a game I enjoy (because it’s difficult) into plushy easy win trials.
I am not saying that DS should be nerfed more. It WAS nerfed. It is in a really good space now where the killer has counterplay around it and isn't just arbitrarily punished with having to win an extra chase every game.
Killer wins every chase eventually, but that isn't the same as the game being so killer sided that DS is an inevitable requirement. I think if your saying that you absolutely can't win enough chases without DS to consistently perk, your not as good a player as you think you are, despite your playtime. DS could literally vanish and the game would be fine (though, again, I don't think DS needs a nerf right now), because DS doesn't actually serve a mandatory need and more exists as an interesting tool in the toolbelt right now where it forces the killer to be a bit less efficient while still giving them a big reward for good play.
I just do not respect people who think that they deserve to not get tunneled down for being as aggressive (Like you are, I peeked at your YouTube, you are good but you definitely don't respect killers enough to make the claim that you think you can't outplay killers and come across as sincere. Like clearly you do not *actually* think killer is *that* OP if your so comfortable doing things like repairing right in front of a huntress like its whatever, not saying your bad, quite the opposite, your too good to actually believe this) and failing at it. Someone getting tunneled just means that someone on the survivor side made a critical error and worsened their gamestate, not that the killer is being unfair. Like if you unhook at a point where the killer can down the unhooked survivor trivially within a minute without the unhooked survivor being able to enter a full new chase? You kinda made a mistake, and you don't deserve to stay up.
Bad plays should have consequences, and the game has JUST started to move out of a place where survivors were allowed to do whatever they wanted without having to care about the killer (vacuum revert, DS nerf) and now need to actually know how to play the game with stuff like 50/50s, solid looping rather than the bare minimum, and full breakaways. Wanting DS to be stronger is saying "I want the devs to do good unhooks automatically for me."
Like, again, hell no on the DS buff to having multi charges and a longer stun. Hell no on ANY DS buff. The perk's function exists to give you breathing room, not to invalidate the killer winning chases, which is in fact quite hard to do vs good survivors who understand how to use resources (Which is understood to be an issue. There is a reason they are generally redesigning maps to be less survivor sided, and not buffing killer sided maps for example).
To paraphrase someone who is much more eloquent than me about this: The wiggle phase existing isn't there so that you can seriously get a chance to escape the killer. It is there to prevent every hook from being a basement hook. Likewise, DS isn't there to actually give you extra-lives from the killer (anymore, thank GOD, if we buff DS again we WILL see another killer strike, I am willing to put money on that), it is there to lessen the tempo advantage from a rapid-re-down. If you want the killer to not get ANY tempo advantage from an unhook... don't unhook poorly. Like flat out, do better at it, the perk shouldn't let you make a blatant mistake that you have no business making and not only not be punished for it but get a big advantage like a super long stun.
It is already the longest stun at the game with an unmitigatable 5 seconds, which is already a 20 meter head start, which means a minimum chase duration of 38 seconds assuming open ground and no ranged aspect to a killer power. That means in the time it currently takes to finish someone who DS stuns you, the survivor team gets to do 1.5 gens. How much better can a DS stun really get before your basically admitting you don't want the killer to be able to hook someone twice in a row ever?
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They experimented with a similar thing (Slowing the death timer so that survivors had more time to do gens without the killer coming) back in 2016.
Broke the game. Survivors would just rush the hook and wait so the killer HAD to stay there and eat the penalty, meaning the rest of the survivors could repair lightning fast.
"Anti-camping" is already super easy. If a killer hard camps you should win every game vs them already. It literally can't get any weaker without making it so that if the survivors literally all swarm the hook the killer still loses. Camping is generally not the right choice but it needs to be the right choice if the survivors disrespect the killer or the game breaks.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
DS needs to be buffed, not nerfed. Duration is too short. Sixty seconds is nothing and the stun is too short. Some killers it’s like they didn’t even eat a stun because of their power: Nurse and Spirit.
I think it’s completely okay to make DS activate with two chances for each unhook rather than once.
So, to be clear, you think it should take 5 minutes minimum each survivor to eliminate eliminate them, and that DS, one of the most frustrating anti-fun perks in the game, should be even more of a negative experience for the killer if someone camps a locker with it?
Here is a better idea: If you don't want to be eliminated from the game, get better at it. DS was nerfed and is still arguably too strong. It was the most powerful perk in the game ever and completely destroyed the meta in 2017 back when there was no counterplay. DS is meant to be a 'weak' deterrent, as are all anti-hooking deterrents, because the killer is supposed to be more powerful than the survivors at the hook and be allowed to score.
If you don't want your teammate to get eliminated, don't unhook while the killer is there. Instead force them off the hook by pressuring gens, so that they have to leave if they don't want to lose. If they still don't leave, punish them, have 3 of your 4 teammates pip, and pat yourself on the back for climbing overall gaining .5 pips on average assuming the camped survivor is randomly distributed.
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Wraith isn't that weak because his power aids him in one of the two ways that are generally what you want a power to do in the current meta, mainly he has really good mobility to cover lots of distance. He is definitely way better than he was and depending on who you ask he is better than Clown, plague, legion, or trapper. Obviously many people think he is worse, but he isn't a trash fire now that vacuum pallets are gone and having a power that bypasses pallet looping isn't MANDATORY.
His main issue is more that his power is sorta a worse version of Ghostface's when it comes to chase potential, and has a lot of clunkyness. I don't mind that he isn't actually an ambush killer, but it feels like he would benefit from getting aura read into his base kit so his identity as a 'high uptime' killer is cemented. Worse detection and stall than Doctor, but more map pressure. Perhaps giving him a stalk effect would also make sense, so he could threaten from cloak a bit. But that would make him REALLY like Ghostface. Maybe stalking only while stationary to unlock the ability to attack that survivor, but not instadown, and landing the hit decloaks him.
Removing lightburn also just makes sense. Its a pretty archaic weakness of his kit from back when they thought killers needed to have the potential to have their power be a downside or be lost, on par with how old trapper was weak to sabo effects.
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I would love something a bit non-Euclidian. Like maybe its rather big but has 4 points that can be used to 'wrap around' back in on itself, or which has a gentle slope so you can see the opposite side of the map by looking up.
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@dspaceman20 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1839517#Comment_1839517
I don't think basement trapper is op. (I honestly don't know how I feel about it.) But I don't see a way to really escape a basement trapper.
On larger maps I think it is trivial. But part of trapper's intended strength is his defensive, territorial play.
Put another way, back in THE DAY every hook was a basement hook for trapper, because he could untrap the exact singular point you were able to unhook from back then, and while it was a very NPE thing that deserved a nerf, it wasn't really OP.
I think being basement hooked by trapper, twins, demo, and to a much lesser extent hag (who has problems but isn't really far off enough to really need a nerf) leading to pure despair is fine. These killers have area control as their primary mechanic, and the only purpose of area control is to... well... control areas. Trying to make it so its possible/easy to escape the basement from these killers is missing the point of them: certain parts of the map are meant to be SIGNIFICANTLY more dangerous for the survivors in exchange for their powers often not working great in others.
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@dspaceman20 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1838469#Comment_1838469
Wouldn't that make basement trapper to strong? Genuine question. The only way I see getting out of it is by using dead hard.
Trapper is so territorial that him being very strong at basement is fine. Like the basement SHOULD be a Very Bad Place (TM) where if the killer is remotely prepared he can lock you down. He either is setting up near basement anyway (so a basement rescue is unlikely in the first place), or he is travelling to basement and leaving his nest during chases and should return to find his nest disarmed and his prospects destroyed.
Basement traps are basically akin to a free territorial imperative. So if you think trapper basement traps are OP, territorial imperative should be too.
Not to mention that it isn't like Dead Hard is the reason Trapper is kept 'in check.'
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A lot of the hatred of DH is residual hatred of when pallet vacuums were a thing and it could extend a chase by like a full minute on its own, because weak loops didn't exist.
I think DH, when the maps are balanced (Glad Ormond has actual deadzones now, lets do Hardonfield next!) is one of the more interesting perks in the game because it rewards very skilled survivor play to extend a loop, and encourages killers to think more about respecting pallets or not, or if not used to extend a loop, it rewards killers for being smart and does literally nothing if played around. Its fairly dynamic now, and low key I think its worse than Sprint Burst at the moment. With the way maps work right now I would rather get a bit more distance early in the chase in a way that makes it much easier to plan my route and avoid deadzones even if I am near a gen there, than to get the option to try to bluff out and dodge a hit or get an extra loop sometimes, especially as you can do similar stuff with Sprint Burst anyway by 99% it or baiting a swing when the killer starts the chase by walking.
Obviously, that is personal preference though.
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@honestyoverbias said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1839436#Comment_1839436
I agree with you on some points, though what I heard them say word for word in that video was “if it’s is exploitable (hook camping) then we want to fix it, but absolutely no concrete information on how at this time”. I don’t think it breaks the game because there’s ways to implement game mechanics that make it harder for survivors to exploit a paused timer ex. causing an exposed or exhausted status on survivors when near a hooked survivor for too long. Also if a killer is in a chase the timer doesn’t need to pause. If you get creative with it there are many ways to get this to work in a balanced way, it just takes imagination and an openness to experimentation
They talk about in later dev posts how they aren't interested in persuing this and implore survivors to, in not so many words, 'Get good.'
For real, camping isn't actually a problem in the game if you know what your doing, and the devs are super sick of people complaining about. They flat out said any reports about camping will be discarded.
There is no valid reason to punish killers for defending hook if the survivors refuse to punish them. You have the tools to stop camping. Use them. Survivors have been complaining about this since 2016. Its not going to change, the 'anti camping' feature of the game is the killer believing at least 2 survivors are on gens so if they camp for the 3 minutes required to get a kill they lose (As 2 survivors can do 6 gens in 3 minutes if they are good at skill checks).
Convince the killer you WILL punish them, and they should move. If they don't they will depip down to 20 pretty quick and most people will statistically pip past a hard camper meaning they will find themselves alone vs other people who can't play. If you are at 20, you have problems outside of getting camped.
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No. I think the killer should just be given extra offering slots.
The problem with map offerings isn't that being able to choose a map is OP. Its the asymmetry between the two sides in how much control offerings grant them over a match. Killers have to choose between map offerings, BP boosters, Moris, hook distance decreasers, a white ward to keep important addons when they are low, or blocking a map offering.
Survivors can force in a map offering, then run survivor team wide BP boosters, maybe a hook separator or fog, and have their key holder pack a white ward because why not?
It isn't that map offerings are too good, but that survivors basically always 'pick the map' which is unintentional. If the killer could run a map offering every game alongside wreaths or their hook spacers, it would be way more fair, especially if killer's had their individual map offering weighed double in map offering RNG, so to get a 50/50 on the offering survivors need to burn two offerings collectively.
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@honestyoverbias said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1839390#Comment_1839390
I’ve watched the part you’re referring to and the final response was they were “not satisfied” with the mechanics they tested so far and will continue to look for a viable solution as they have acknowledged killers need to be encouraged away from camping (at least that’s what they are hoping to see). Not that they are giving up on that route and it will never happen. It’s in the works, they said. As for the killers options if they leave the area the timer resumes and survivors must unhook, always the killer to proceed. It may be difficult for the killer to adjust, but is the point of any game not to challenge every player to improve and try new things?
The mechanic they ended up making was a combo of BT and BBQ. The dissatisfaction with the fix wasn't because they wanted to remove camping (again, they literally said in the clip they don't want to make camping worse, they want to reward not camping, and they said they will never 'destroy' camping), it was because their solution had too many negative costs.
Pausing the hook timer is not an option. Not because it makes the game 'harder' for the killer, but it breaks a core interaction. Pausing the timer when the killer is 'camping' (AKA: defending the hook, which may or may not be correct), breaks the game because it removes all pressure the hook creates from the survivors.
I am sorry, but getting hooked is MEANT to suck. Its meant to make the game worse for the survivors. That is to encourage you to not get hooked in the first place. Same with how getting shot in CS:GO sucks, or getting cornered in a fighting game sucks. Games NEED gamestates that dramatically disfavor certain sides to work.
So get good at doing good rescues, get good at not getting caught first, or get wrecked. Don't be the guy complaining that AWPs are OP because you can't rush down long wildly firing an SMG at max distance and get instantly killed because you won't buy a 50 dollar flashbang in counterstrike. Camping is here to stay, because its too important to the game's health.
If you don't want to lose control over the game and risk being eliminated without you being able to do anything to stop it, play better earlier in the match and apply gen pressure so the killer never has the time to even CONSIDER camping. Don't be the definition of a scrub, someone who when things don't go their way in the game don't adjust their own playstyle or try to get better, but instead complain the game itself is unfair despite everyone understanding the rules beforehand: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub
If your complaining that it is unfair you can lose, you lost the game before you started. Games don't exist to let you win or have fun all the time, they are a more cohesive experience, and if you can't enjoy how the game makes you lose, you should re-adjust yourself, rather than demanding the game changes.
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My rule of thumb is that if its an attempt to win the game within the systems the game gives you, its kosher.
If its something done outside of that scope, its not.
What complicates this is things we would consider OOCly unsportsmanlike are deliberately tools in the killer's kit. Hook camping, for example, was an intentional feature of the game, as is tunneling, because they wanted part of survivor gameplay to be a battle to control your altruistic impulses and channel them healthily rather than going mad and rushing to aid others and getting both of you killed, because that emulates a horror movie better. They dialed back on that a bit (On launch trapper was allowed to trap the unhook spot making a safe unhook literally impossible without alerting trapper it was about to happen!) but its still a key part of the game: The killer wants to get into the player's heads.
Heck, a few killers, Pig coming to mind, have 'Makes the game psychologically unpleasant and conceals what the right thing to do is' as part of their core kit.
So for me its stuff like not being pointlessly a jerk when it won't help, but not begrudging either side for being a bit mean in game. A survivor shouldn't sit and teabag near the gate wasting everyone's time, but teabagging after landing a stun is an attempt to influence a killer's behavior because getting the killer to over-commit to chases or do things like rage-camp is an important mechanical tool that lets the survivors control match tempo better. Likewise pretending to tilt or being a bit sassy as a killer and showing a bit of disrespect mid match is fine, but don't pretend to give someone hatch and, again, just waste time while the game is already over.
Also, don't abuse bugs obviously.
Other than that? DBD is a 'full contact' game. Point at the killer after they wiff a hit when you get a good vault. Repeatedly slug the weakest player to make it the survivor's job to waste time healing them because you know they aren't going to be on a gen no matter what. Pop that instaheal juuuuust at the worst time for the killer. Ect. But understand its a game, and the other person is a person, and don't be a dick after its over. Being competitive is cool. Being a whiney/abusive/toxic jerk in chat isn't. Holding the game hostage by blocking the survivor's ability to move and never downing them isn't. End the game efficiently once its clearly over, give away hatch if you want but your not obligated too, and then drop a GG in the chat and maybe chat about how the game went like a gentleperson.
'Would it be ok in the FGC' (And DBD is popular in the FGC because it has a lot in common with the fighting game dynamic) is a good standard. The FGC allows a LOT of stuff that exists to shake your opponent's head space, heck entire genres of characters exist basically to say 'I disrespect you and will attempt to embarrass you in this match,' but you have to be classy outside of those scenarios and you can't do nonsense that actively distrupts the core mechanics of the game like rapid pausing or berating your opponent after the match. Likewise, don't be a scrub and complain something is OP because you don't WANT to counter it.
Be classy and competitive, don't be a twat about it though.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1839175#Comment_1839175
Hard disagree. It punishes the farmed team mate more than anyone, and it was not a bad play on their part since they have no say if they get farmed from the hook or not.
When were those experiments for anti camp/tunnel penalties? Can you give an example on that?
Also a survivor unhooking me in your face without BT, doesn't force you to tunnel me. You still make that decision on your own alone.
Found it. Located at 17:30.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oRfaMJuCPU&feature=emb_title&ab_channel=DeadbyDaylightSpecifically their alpha testers felt it was 'weird and bad' and that survivor behavior changed dramatically when they knew the killer wasn't 'allowed' to camp in a way that made the game worse.
Camping is essentially a survivor behavior issue where the survivors are not pressuring the killer appropriately, and it makes sense that mechanical changes that punish the killer for noticing this make the game dumb because it creates a scenario where the killer just... lacks good options.
While there is some merit to that its kinda messed up the system punishes the farmed survivor more than the farming survivor, that isn't the killer's problem. Perhaps there should be an EXTREME emblem penalty for farming a survivor? But that risks 'collateral' damage on survivors who try to do a risky but 'honest' unhook.
Ultimately, however, its bad game design to try to 'sand the edges' off the experience at all costs. We need to evaluate the cost-benefit of hook camping: does the negative experience of being farmed by teammates or killers NEEDING to camp to maintain propper tempo in a round offset the benefits of the interaction of camping? Tests show, no, it doesn't, its vital, and in fact a lot of complaints in the era where devs were putting in completely bonkers anti-tunnel/camp tools (old BT for example, which is possibly the anti-camping tool alluded to in the stream, which funnily enough still ended up distorting the game to the survivors just rushing the hook like madlads) show it actually makes the game really boring for the survivors because there is no tension in getting caught until your third hook. The POSSIBILITY of every chase being your last is critical to avoiding the game becoming an M1 sim.
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They talk about it in Devstream 21. They had prototypes that did things like blind the killer near the hook, or make the timer longer, but that caused survivors to game the time mechanic by doing things to force the killer to stay near the hook but not actually engage in a chase, because if the hook timer doesn't go down and the killer can't leave the hook without the survivor getting off and away, the killer legitimately has no other options, so they committed to never adding more negative reinforcement against hook camping (And, on top of that, reiterated its a good strategy and they want killers to feel better about LEAVING the hook than making being by the hook worse.
Vid link attached. Starts at 17:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oRfaMJuCPU&feature=emb_title&ab_channel=DeadbyDaylight -
@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1839175#Comment_1839175
Hard disagree. It punishes the farmed team mate more than anyone, and it was not a bad play on their part since they have no say if they get farmed from the hook or not.
When were those experiments for anti camp/tunnel penalties? Can you give an example on that?
Also a survivor unhooking me in your face without BT, doesn't force you to tunnel me. You still make that decision on your own alone.
They talked about it in one of the older devstreams, around 2017 I believe. They did an internal test of slowing/pausing the hook more but that just resulted in the survivors having absolutely no cost in rushing the hook and running around it forcing the killer to stay there while someone did a gen.
I will try to find it! However this is is multiple hours of video so it may take a bit.
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@Scoted said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1839175#Comment_1839175
Very good point, I didn't think of if the survivor was just bad and made the mistake. I guess you just have to learn how to counter it as it is and move into ranks where it doesn't happen.
I think why it happens more in the 10's especially is that at red ranks killers don't necessarily expect insta-rescues, while in those lower rated ranks you often have survivors who understand how to play ok but are not great at decision making. Like they know not to sit around in a bush hiding or run around at random, and that they should be brave and rescue, but aren't quite at the point where they can think about how the killer thinks when rescuing and do things like delay the rescue.
So from the killer perspective at those ranks your expecting an insta-rescue basically every time, and thus will end up with tunneling being the 'correct' play far more often.
At red ranks, survivors are much more clever about making when they rescue very unpredictable, sometimes rescuing 10 seconds in to punish the killer just zooming off to a gen, but usually rescuing more at the 30 to 40 second mark where the killer really can't afford to still be there. So you get some of the benefits of insta-rescues but avoid most of the pitfalls because the killers at those ranks are more conditioned to expect some survivors to be very good at sticking to gens and forcing them away from the hook before they go for the rescue.
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Nope. If you unhook right in front of the killer, and the killer hits the person who was unhooked, it doesn't mean the killer was toxic.
It means you are bad, and farmed your teammate. The pip system punishes YOU and REWARDS the killer right now, and that is a good design. The killer should be rewarded for high skill plays, and punishing survivor mistakes is a high skill play.
The devs experimented with a few more anti-camp/tunnel penalties before, and found that it just results in the game breaking, which makes sense: Any further punishment to killers defending the hook other than what they already got would mean making hooking actively bad for killer, and removing any skill from survivor rescue plays.
If you wanna unhook in the killer's face, run borrowed time and eat the hit for your buddy so that all together the killer needs to land 3 attacks to down the hooked victim. If you don't want to do that, count to 30 and rescue then so the killer isn't right next to the hook. Insta-rescues, aka hook farming, is a very low skill survivor play that FORCES the killer to tunnel to maintain pressure.
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1834563#Comment_1834563
This. A killer losing a potential hook purely from a single survivors (the downed one) actions should absolutely not ever be a thing (edge cases being Flip flop which is extremely situational).
If a killer is going to lose a potential hook through no fault of their own it should be because of organised teamwork. Not one perk out of a potential 16.
Flip flop basically requires the killer to somehow be distracted from the pickup for long enough to go back for it, and a bodyblock or sabo to boot.
I would also say coordination isn't enough. One aspect of game design is to designate a 'default' winner in different levels of interaction for different things to determine the risk of the strategy and not just which side is more likely to win but who 'controls' a situation. For example, in Star Craft if you have a forward photon turret rush setup you tend to have less control than your opponent and win heavily in lower end games and almost never in high end games because the correct response is so heavily favored that even doing the rush really well loses.
In DBD, a lot of interactions lean survivor, or to tie depending on skill level. For example, spam pallet juking at low favors killer heavily, at medium tends favor killer as well if someone panics or doesn't do a spam very well, and at higher end favors the survivor entirely if they are healthy and know how to time it. Pallet camping favors killers landing a hit but eating stunned at most skill levels if the survivor is stationary.
Others are purely random, or at least effectively are random from a statistical modeling standpoint because in a 'perfect play' scenario a 50/50 legitimately is a cointoss, but real high end players still have patterns and tells.
I think in the case of hooks and the hook carry, all interactions outside of DS (Which while annoying still has counterplay and unlike traditional 'carry nerf' perks requires the killer to already be in a superior position and if played around maintains that position) should default in the killer winning unless there is a serious skill gap. These strategies should be edge and risky and be 'we think we can style this guy and intend to risk a lot on him not realizing what we are doing' rather than 'we are gunna pull this off and secure the unhook.' BT and eating a hit for a teammate is a much better 'safe' way to rescue that just happens to have some costs to long term safety compared to a slick sabo rescue or flip flop distraction rescue.
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Hag is in a fine spot. She is kinda mediocre if you don't allow her to be territorial, but she is oppressive if she is territorial. This punishes solos or pubs way less than it punishes over-altruism, which has been a problem from the launch of the game. Its fine to have a killer that specifically targets the impulse to want to save other people and make it a horrible idea unless you can otherwise occupy her, and the only arguable problem with her is basement lockdown, which borderline isn't a problem because you almost always can know its hag and just avoid the basement areas on most maps so she can't hook you down there.
Freddy is a bit different and feels genuinely oppressive vs teams that aren't very coordinated. Vs coordinated teams he is pretty fair, if very strong, but he just has too much innate stall to the point that even without stall perks he feels stronger than a full stall combo of surveillance, tinker, undying, ruin, and then his power has a bunch of aspects on top of it! He depends too much on SWF being able to track Freddy's activities and avoid the oblivious effect to be fair, and vs them he is still strong because faster teleports and slower gens are already pretty hefty rewards for being asleep. So maybe his 'rework' just needs to be removing oblivious so solos feel better repairing while asleep vs him? Its downright strange that he has as an integral part of his power an 'anti-solo' effect considering how weak oblivious is vs SWF in most maps.
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Just a shot in the dark for why there may be some confusion @keygun
Is English your first language? There are some grammatical mistakes that mangle the meaning of what you are saying and makes it hard to understand often associated with translating from a different syntax, and I am not sure if it was just a hasty typo (believe me, I have been there many a time!) or if you are a non-native speaker.
Either way, the reason that Pyramid Head, Demogorgon, Clown, and Doctor have full movespeed is their powers, while useful for ending chases, heavily depend on having the threat of 'normal' chases. Most killers have powers that assist in chases, to be a lower movespeed killer requires your power to warp chases so much that they don't work 'normally' anymore.
A pyramid head has a ranged attack that can 'cut off' certain loops or be used to enhance mindgames, but ultimately he still NEEDS to do normal chases. Deathslinger is slightly slower because he needs to kiiiiinda loop a bit to get an angle because he doesn't have a movement based power, but deathslinger needs to have you in his sights for only a moment to get a hit. He can bypass a huge portion of the chase entirely, rather than merely enhance how he chases, so he goes slower.
Clown, Doctor, and Demo especially absolutely are not 'ranged' killers as they don't project any lethality out of M1 range, and their powers don't especially close off loops that much. Clown is so weak he is literally getting a complete rework to make him much stronger because he so utterly lacks chase potential unless survivors are very foolish and try to run loops through his smoke rather than transitioning to a different loop.
Nurse goes even slower still because she doesn't even have a ranged power, but a movement power. So cover doesn't even work against her, and thus she is nerfed in speed to make it harder for her to patrol, get line of sight, and to force her to guess more and make her worse at searching.
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@SweetTerror said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1837636#Comment_1837636
I'll have to try Stridor. Lately I've been wondering if I should use chase perks (Enduring, Brutal Strength, etc) should survivors take Victor hostage.
I think Brutal strength is nice just for breaking loops and making things easier for Victor later. Not sure about enduring because that has less setup potential and more is an immediate benefit.
I can't stress enough how much it isn't counterplay to take Victor hostage. I have never not swept the game when survivors decided to do it.
Like imagine saying "Hey know what would be neat? Sitting in one of trapper's traps forever bodyblocking the rest so he can't use em." Like that is obviously absurd, getting an early 3v1 is so strong in DBD as any killer knows, and while the survivor can turn it back into a 4v1 at any time its like you just got a free whole slug on that survivor. Just a huge tempo gain easily worth winning a chase or two as an M1. So I wouldn't necessarily perk specifically for that scenario as much as get perks that help your M1 potential in 'bursts.' This is why I think Coup is actually a great fit for her weirdly, especially as she can save the lunges very easily, as lunges tend to be more necessary for the second hit for most killers (which Charolette can easily avoid needing to get) than the first due to the speedburst and using them for stuff like medium vaults.
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Because you generally want to win your initial chase before releasing victor, or use victor as a detection tool while pressuring with Charollete, chase perks for Charollete aren't terrible, they just shouldn't be chase perks that require you to dedicate a lot of time with her, so the classic STBFL isn't a good idea.
I found that Coup De Grace is actually shockingly good on her, as it can force a down really easily and let you transition to Victor fast. While it only will fire 5 times, its critical to remember getting early downs on killer snowballs. If you can win 2 chases with Coup 20 seconds earlier than you otherwise would have, it did its job and then some.
There is also the obvious passive perks. Undying-Ruin-Surveillance for example. You also have options that emphasize your map pressure, like Oppression. Twins also have stall elements in their kit (if the survivor kidnaps Victor as 'counterplay' you are a very happy twins if your comfortable as an M1 killer. Imagine in that case Viktor 'replacing' that survivor with an immersed claudette for 40 seconds to understand how good it is), and stall elements naturally self synergize, and its REALLY bad to stay injured vs Charollette, so Sloppy isn't a terrible play: you eat a lot of time if survivors are forced to heal every injury, and it makes tracking with Viktor easier if they just don't.
I think the real secret tech is Stridor, because that is a passive global perk that increases breath volume for even survivors, so it works as Viktor for tracking injured survivors.
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I think the issue is more its slightly killer sided at the top top end, but at the average rank its VERY survivor sided (At low ranks its ridiculously killer sided), and more critically the gamefeel for killer is just.... AWFUL. Like truly terrible, cardinal sins of design.
For example, I get why mechanically killers are both first person view and get their camera control taken away constantly. But holy CRAP does that make killer physically frustrating to play.
I don't think radical balance changes are necessary at this point: I have long ago lost the 'this game shouldn't be about looping' fight I fought in 2016, and looping actually landed in an okish spot regardless anyway. However we really need a lot of QOL changes and a lot of love showered on making the actual experience nicer for killers more than anything else, which would create room for survivors gaining power in areas they don't need but do want to have the option to have power in. Every single killer nerf is a slap in the face not because killers are low winrate, but low agency and power, which makes pretty much any major new survivor feature or attempt to change killer stuff that doesn't work very well very traumatic.
Good example of this done well: A lot of killer vets felt new ruin is a nerf. However, new ruin, especially with undying, FEELS way better, despite arguably being weaker than old ruin even comparing the duo to a stand alone perk, because it smooths out the killer experience and gives killers moments that feel very good and which directly reward them for doing things they should do (gen pressure) in a way that is normally absent from the game. Even if you know logically gen pressure is good, it doesn't feel good to lose chases on purpose to maintain it... but that lil zzzzzzaaaap you hear from ruin is a nice bit of direct feedback telling you 'Hey, you did a good thing and directly helped advance your win condition.'
We need more feel good stuff like that, and less pointless frustration. End Game Collapse having such a comically weak 'concede' feature that was designed in such an obviously silly way solely to allow survivors to allow survivors to BM and teabag at gates, creating far more work than was needed, is a good example of why killer mains are often so sensitive: they are very aware their feelings are often not just not prioritized (despite having a pretty decent power level) but actively are worked against in order to make 'bully the killer' a selling point of the game.
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@Xzan said:
We talking about DS for gens? It's very frustrating for gens to be taken out of the game in the first minute. They should lose 50% progress and teleport to a random location if a survivors tunnels a gen for a specific time.
Jokes aside, a perk that rewards failure and bad plays shouldn't be basekit.
Don't forget that this is a PvP game. Frustration is part of it. I have never seen people complaining in CS:GO if they get killed with the AWP 10 seconds into a round. And if this happens multiple times, who is at fault? The one that always runs into it or the other side?
Oh boy I just flashbacked to 2017 when I was repeatedly making awp CS:GO comparisons on the steam forums to explain why complaining about players punishing you for being predictable is bad!
The way I see it, anti-tunnel perks can exist, but they need to be akin to Flashbangs, not Autosnipers: They don't exist to just overwhelm the other player's choice of locking you down because they correctly guessed what you were going to do and where you were going. They give you a tool to TRY to open up the situation, but require you to both know how to use it AND do very very well because your still at a disadvantage.
Modern DS feels like it hit that mark. Its a bit unhealthy in combination with undying IMO and I think those perks should be put on the same 'charge' as it were (maybe call them 'heroism' perks, akin to exhaustion perks, any 'ultimate' perk that works once per game for survivors all share the same charge because of their game warping effects so you can't stack em), but what it does is basically force the killer to commit to a full hook-stage worth of time to try to get that second hook on ya, which is just a plain old bad deal unless there are extenuating circumstances, but its very narrow in when it can happen and its something the killer knows about so its never a whammy or something they are forced to just eat.
DS WILL get you out of being tunneled unless your team are a bunch of dumbos or the killer hates your guts in particular they are willing to toss the game to get you (And, hey, that stinks but its valid for the killer to decide mid match that its a wash and maybe they just wanna get rid of you, better learn to drop chases rather than just endlessly extend them if you want to be a looping god giving killers hernias! Do that and you can become a bigwig streamer!) but if your team are a bunch of dumbos tunneling is the least of your worries.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1837534#Comment_1837534
That 15 second rule is garbage and if a killer starts camping they've already thrown the game that in itself wastes enough time to get gens down it's quite clear they don't care about gens anymore
15 seconds off of gen pressure isn't enough time to throw the game.
My dude/dudette/dud, you are just... so deep in the weeds right now, running hot arguing some truly absurd nonsense. Why don't you take a break, maybe play killer for a bit yourself or just take a walk, and come back to the discussion a bit more cool?
Obviously I don't know your experiences, but the killers staying for 15 seconds isn't them hard committing to camping. That is 20% of the 3 gens that they aren't pressuring, meaning that they are unlikely to get done unless it would already be too late if they left. If the killer ends up pressuring one of those gens, they probably can regress it by that amount during a chase, as the difference between a completed or 99%'d gen and a gen at 20% is huuuuuge in terms of how much pressure it puts on the killer, it basically doesn't matter.
The risk-reward of staying for 15 seconds if you suspect the survivors to 'unhook tunnel' for waiting a mere 15 seconds is very huge. Even if that bet only pays off 33% of the time (And, in my experience even at rank 1 it pays off WAY more) the cost to payout is hugely in your favor as a killer to at least try it on the first hook, unless obviously you can immediately chain into another chase.
Hell, you know what? We could run a duo for a bit if you want after you cool down. Maybe see what your dealing with. Perhaps rank 20 is a camping hellscape. I don't think that matters too much because of how trivially you climb out of hard camper ranks because you literally can't de-pip vs them if you know how to play the game, but that still isn't great for mega rookies. I doubt greens are camp hellscapes too just because those killers were able to pip and thus likely won't commit to hard camps without expecting payoffs unless its vs a key.
Your mistake is imagining killer players as a monolith, a group of supervillains who value ruining the survivor experience so much they are willing to throw every game they play just to screw you, which is... blatantly absurd?
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1837518#Comment_1837518
If a killer wants to camp they will and they aren't gonna give two ######### about gens that's the truth, you can spew this crap all day but just because you rush gens doesn't mean they will stop camping
Most killers care far more about not being a 1 kill game then camping. It is just really clear that you are overly invested in being able to unhook right away and thus are the exact kind of person that killers wait 15 seconds 'soft camping' to trick into having a hook standoff.
Again, I said this in multiple threads to you, but sincerely, just count to 30. You got a full minute to rescue. 30 seconds is enough time to pop 2 gens and put the fear of god into killers. See how many actually are willing to wait out the 3 minutes it takes to kill a survivor. If your not in beige ranks, its probably going to be like... one in one hundred games maybe?
Like if a killer is just willing to throw the game vs a team that has 2 people willing to stay on gens (Because hard camping loses even if you can lure one survivor off gens doing it, 2 survivors can fix around 5 gens assuming they can do skillchecks in 3 minutes), that killer is hard de-pipping most games. If your at 20, then I would just say climb to 15 or 10 which should be trivial even if your a 4 man SWF and a camper is forcing 1 survivor to de-pip every game (You lose 1 pip, gain 3 every game, rotate the person first caught and you all gain .5 pips a game) and get to a rank where the killer isn't such a thirsty skank that they are willing to lose nearly ever game for a singular kill.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1837506#Comment_1837506
I've played since day one and none of what you said changes the fact that if the killer wants to be a dick and ruin the game for survivors they absolutely can but yet they sit here and complain about their fun , I'm not saying it's unfair I'm saying it's unfun that it exists in the first place which by the way wasn't because of survivors , the game was so much harder for killers it was considered a legit strategy back then to secure multiple kills but nowadays even with all the tools devs have provided to prevent it from happening killers camp just to be a dick when they get triggered about something and say " the survivors wouldn't leave", How often do you camp the hook? If you've played as long as you let on it's probably very rare that you camp the hook like that, sure you might see ds still that's a given , I was stating that killers complaining about sloppy unhooks are the same ones who camp and complain about everything survivors do as an excuse , they can play however they want I really don't care but don't pretend like it's only because of survivors when killers camp right out the gates sometimes for no rhyme or reason
99% of the time, the killer is in fact not just being a dick and they know something. Point of order: If the killer is camping and you know they are? That means they were correct to camp. You have to be in a position to observe it, meaning your not pressuring them.
I am a rank 1 who has been playing since beta. I literally wrote a post in the beta forums from the perspective of a survivor main (I played exclusively survivor until vacuum pallets and the survivor slowdown gutted traditional survivor stealth) that became a DBD copy-paste reaction macro to camping complaint threads. Back in my day our number one complaint on the steam forum were people tripping over themselves to say wraith OP. There was some ridiculous nonsense So I have been listening to camping complaints for longer than this game has been released, and its always the same attitude that betrays how fundamentally bad most survivors are at the hook.
And this isn't to say survivors who mess this up are dumb. The beta vlogs from the devs make it really clear they want hooks to be an area where it is PSYCHOLOGICALLY really hard to play them correctly. They want it to feel super urgent, like you GOTTA go rescue now. And this was before SWF made it extra bad. Hooks were a siren call of bad decisions on the survivor's part back when you literally were playing with strangers, but now its your buddy who is about to be taken out of the match... and the killers know it. And they are going to see what you do about it before making their choice, at least a good one.
Here is my advice. Count to 30 when you see a hook before going to rescue. For real. Do it. See how often the killer ACTUALLY is hard camping, and how often they are merely speculatively waiting 15 seconds. As a rank 1 tri-prestiged trapper, I never hard camp... but I just... wait and see. Its all too common to, after waiting a bit, to see some crows fly off nearby. To see some scratchmarks. Maybe, if the survivor really has no impulse control or understanding of my psychology at all, get someone doing repeated window vaults juuuust on the other side of a gym 1 tile away. Maybe notice a survivor peekin their lil old head out of a corner.
You do that? Well....
Your buddy is gunna die friendo. Sorry. This was the future you chose. You just told the killer "I am an overly-emotional basket case who despite having a full minute to wait for you to leave the hook decided to come the second I saw it and I clearly will not give up on this."
Obviously low ranking killers might mistakenly 'strategically' hard camp, and killers who get angry at survivors or who just want to troll may hard camp as well non-tactically. I know post mori-nerf I try to be a little extra bit unkind to people who bring keys into my games myself simply because its so clear they aren't interested in the game being fun at all for me. But thems the breaks, its actually an interseting part of the game's psychology. Its fun as a survivor to know I ran loops so well that we are down to 1 gen and if I actually can't pull of a clean exit from this chase I am very much going on the hook and that is that.
But, more importantly, stopping those occurrences isn't worth BURNING DOWN THE GAME.
Because, remember death garden? Death garden had anti-camping that was stronger than DBD. It was a key feature, the killer COULDN'T camp. Not really. Instead it was balanced around a number of downs and the killer being able to charge up survivor executions that were then contested by a dumb shootout. Way more fair, way more in the survivor's power to get their friend up regardless of what the killer wanted.
AND IT FLIPPIN SUUUUUUCKED. Killers hated it, but it also really sucked for survivors because it actually means that every hook is equally bad and the killer can't ever make a mistake camping, and there was no tension on losing a chase unless the survivors were out of lives. The game actually lacked any stakes at all and just was this dumb game where you ran around an nonsense happened. It turns out the dynamic of the hook is pretty critical to how DBD functions as a game because it represents a shift where the killer's objective goes from 'patrol gens to try to find survivors and keep them off' to 'Try to pressure this one, suddenly super important objective I just created that now influences survivor behavior extremely heavily.' DBD is WAY MORE INTERESTING as a game and stops being a gen simulator because of the ability of the killer to suddenly go from desperately searching for people to actively defending something that will make the lives of survivors much much worse. It flips the dynamic.
This is also why DBD games where the killer never gets a hook aren't generally super fun: they tend to lack real meaningful interaction and just sorta peeter out, rather than being something amazing for the survivors. Which is why gens are generally structured on the map in such a way that it is hard to avoid at least a duo-gen situation that will ensure the game ends in at least one chase where there will probably be a hook, and why resources run out over time.
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@Scoted said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1836891#Comment_1836891
I agree, it should be nerfed to only prevent tunnelling
Define tunneling in a way that isn't 'the killer correctly noticing the survivors are not pressuring the gens or disrespecting their presence and they are free to efficiently eliminate them as fast as possible.'
Anti-tunnel is a fine design space. But you need to actually codify what you want to do and ensure it isn't just 'I don't like the fact that if I do something really stupid the killer can see me do it and punish me' which is what most survivors talk about when talking anti-tunnel.
Old Borrowed Time was a toxic anti-tunnel perk because it just punished the killer overall for noticing an agro hook rescue was going down and no matter how bad the rescue was the killer just was screwed because they needed to land an extra 2 hits to get anything off it, which was way too much chase power even if the killer was a mere 5 meters from the hook while you pulled that dude off. New BT is a fantastic anti-tunnel tool because it adds 1 hit to the chase and strongly encourages the killer to switch focus to the person unhooking if they body block you after you hit the unhooked victim and trigger the bleedout, simply because they will be closer, but if the unhooker does it too sloppily or doesn't bother to protect the person they unhooked it still ends up farming the unhooked player and letting the killer kill that person much faster. It actually is a negotiated experience where despite the existence of the anti-tunnel tech the killer can still tunnel if the survivors are lazy or bad and just don't give them any reason not to do so.
That is why many of these proposed 'Until you try to repair' "fixes" to DS that just make it old DS don't work, and its why old DS was very toxic. The killer actually absolutely deserves to sometimes destroy survivors, even survivors who had the mere misfortune of having bad, selfish, or psychologically inflexible teammates. What new DS does is give the killer a very strong incentive to, sure, down that survivor that just got unhooked, but then chain into a new chase and hope no one manages to snag that DS boy from under their nose, and the survivors have to do something to make the DS count, like pull that chase away from the DS'd victim. Because camping someone with DS is literally as bad as an idea of camping for a whole hookstate: that is 2.6 gens gone if you do it, you will lose. It is already good enough... if you aren't silly and loop near the downed person, or refuse to do gens and just blatantly stare at the killer as they stand over the DSed person.
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The devs tested it and then said categorically it will never ever ever ever happen.
Camping is purely a survivor sided issue caused by bad survivor play. This is counter intuitive, it SEEMS like the killer is choosing to camp, but the killer is actually playing purely reactively when it comes to the hook.
The killer's ONLY objective is based on what the survivors do. If the survivors themselves divebom the hook, or just don't repair gens? The killer literally has no choice but to camp. If the killers do gens? Camping is terrible.
Good survivors don't let their teammates get camped not because they are sicknasty at instantly rescuing their bud from the killer, but because they put the killer under enough pressure that they can't take the luxury of spending a whole flippin 3 minutes (for perspective, that is enough time for 3 survivors to repair 7 generators counting skill-checks, so literally every generator in the map, including the 2 you don't need to do) unless the killer has a very good reason to suspect that they are actually pressuring 3 survivors while camping.
If you remove the reward for camping, suddenly the killer has no incentive to hook. What the devs found is the killer... just slugs. Every time. Because if you are literally not allowed to defend your hook, hooking the survivor is BAD actually, even if you don't WANT to defend them. It costs you time to bring a survivor to a hook, and your 'reward' is 1/3rd of their way to death, and giving the survivors the ability to instantly heal them to full. If camping doesn't create an objective the killer can defend, suddenly you have no reason to want to hook, because it actually makes the killer gamestate worse. If you slug, the survivors either need to invest time into healing the downed player, or the downed player has to heal themselves which means they aren't insta-unhooked.
Killers will always camp unless the survivors pressure them. It isn't just 'you counter camping by doing gens.' You get the killer to stop hanging out by the hooked survivor by doing gens. The killer needs a reason to leave based on the survivors threatening him. If the survivors refuse to threaten the killer, the killer should be able to do whatever they want. Acting like the killer shouldn't be able to get the kill if survivors don't do gens is like saying the killer shouldn't be able to down survivors even if they don't run away: If you don't make things hard for the killer, guess what? It isn't hard for the killer, and they are going to walk all over you. Give em something to think about other than 'Wow I could just get rid of this guy right now and there isn't a damn thing the survivors can do about it."
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@Terro said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1837396#Comment_1837396
So do you prefer what they're currently doing with a limited number of strong tiles (quality) or would you prefer a larger number of weaker tiles (quantity)?
Its interesting because what we are seeing is the number of weak tiles sorta doesn't matter, those just determine how well branched the strong tiles are, and good killers can overpower that. It also sucks to have too many strong tiles, but it matters WAY more the density of high quality tiles. Basically, there is a third axis beyond 'strength of tile' and 'number of resources on the map overall' that is how clustered tiles are together that is actually way more important than either other metric.
This explains why old Autohaven, Chillwind, and Lampkin lane are so ridiculous: all 3 of those maps had jungle gym upon jungle gym with pretty minimal distance to each other, or in the case of Lampkin lane full on vertical loops in literally every house which meant winning a really trivial 50/50 due to strong super tall walls or full indoor-outdoor transitions made the entire map effectively a 'weak infinite.' And that matters way more than the fact that say... Lampkin Lane has a lot of moderately strong pallets in the middle of the streets and by the houses, because those merely create openings for either side, rather than actually adding a lot of mandatory chase time to every chase mostly independent of killer skill based on relatively trivial survivor execution, which is a super negative quality of the map.
What strong linked chains effectively do is increase the time investment to get a CHANCE at a hit. So if you run the strong full loop at Lampkin you are maybe spending 50 seconds to try to get one hit in (Unless the survivor makes a serious execution error) before they permanently expend a strong resource. Meanwhile at say... new auto haven... that is down to like 20 seconds. So it doesn't matter that new auto haven has a lot of strong pallets, it isn't literally twice as much, and it also is forcing the survivor to make these plays more frequently which means they are more likely to make a mistake or make a deadzone. It also rewards the survivor more for running a loop well, because any himbo, bimbo, or thembo can eat up 30 seconds on a T-L wall, but it takes a really good survivor who is making good calls on the killer to eat up a minute (or a really predictable killer), or to run a mid tier pallet 3 loops instead of just 2. This matters more when getting an extra 20 seconds out of a chase is a near 100% improvement on that loop, rather than only a 60% improvement
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1836939#Comment_1836939
I don't think DS should be basekit but don't sit there and pretend like a killers job is to hard proxy camp and tunnel in this game , acting like survivors going for sloppy saves isn't because the killer won't leave the hook in the first place is a joke , sure the tactic to win in that situation is to genrush but nobody has fun in a game like that , survivors want to play a normal game instead of the killer refusing to leave the area and being forced into gens the rest of the game because someone gets upset over something stupid like a pallet stun and decides to camp
Sure, no one enjoys the killer hard camping the hook, and the counter is to do gens, but the point of doing gens isn't to win the game 'despite' camping, it is to ensure camping doesn't happen in the first place.
The devs have talked about this multiple times and have said over and over that it isn't just that if they want to counter camping they should just do gens.
They said if survivors don't want killers to camp they HAVE to do gens.
They have also tested stronger anti-camping measures many times, and this was back in 2017 when the devs were just so nakedly survivor sided they told killer mains to go play Civ 5 (and quickly retracted that during the strike). They found that making camping any weaker than it is results in survivors just having total power over the game, because the killer being unable to stop sloppy hooks means the killer is PUNISHED for hooking survivors. The only recourse became to slug, which is EXACTLY what happened with old DS with the infinite stab window. No killer was hooking because hooking wasted a lot of YOUR time to put the survivor in a state where they could be 'healed' in a few seconds basically instantly, while slugging meant the other survivors had to either heal the other one up or more likely the survivor healed themselves and got popped with a one tap, which is still about as much time as an unhook.
Camping is purely a problem with survivor behavior, because it comes from survivors being overly aggressive on the hook. If you are REFUSING to do gens and want to go for insta rescues, you are 100% able to do that. But if you do that, the killer can defend the hook, and punish you for such sloppy play. Because *what else is the killer supposed to flippin do?*
Its as ridiculous as killers complaining about genrush because they can't pressure more than one survivor at a time. I am sorry you are mad that I killers are not wandering off to the corner of the map when your refusing to apply any pressure on them and are signaling to them extremely clearly that A: the second they leave that hook, an unhook is happening, and B: that at least 2 people are not doing gens right now, so the cost for camping is insignificant. If you want to avoid your buds getting tunneled, get good at the game and don't let the killer know your going for a rescue, and pop a gen or two to make them go "oh, if I stay here I will lose, I better go patrol again because one kill isn't worth multiple generators."
You don't deserve an unhook if you play badly, refuse to recognize the motivations of killer players or what their strategy for camping is (Because it IS a strategy, hard facecamping basically doesn't happen anymore because its so comically inefficective), and keep wondering why the person you try to rescue gets farmed down when your leaving scratchmarks all around the hook. I am saying this as someone who plays both sides at red: I love people like you as a killer because you are fundementally incapable of ever punishing me, and I hate people like you as a teammate because you over-tunnel on what you want to happen (the unhook) rather than how you make that happen, and when your very direct, blunt, and sloppy methods of getting that fail, you go and whine on the forums rather than realize that the killer is a thinking person who notices you are a thirsty over-alturistic hook-bomber swarming around the hook like flies doing things that betray your intentions comically hard like running into LOS and out to try to bait a chase or repeatedly fast vaulting, which tells the killer A: you want a chase and thus they absolutely shouldn't do it to tilt you further, and B: There is definitely 500% someone else sitting near the hook waiting to rescue and if they repeatedly pretend to that they MIGHT go chase you that one person on the hook becomes 3 and they definitely can snowball the game.
The literal only skill in DBD for a killer, unless your a nurse or a huntress taking snipe shots, is understanding what the survivors are thinking and exploiting it to apply maximum pressure and eliminate survivors faster. That is it. Their only objective is to slow down gens for long enough to get kills. If your bad at unhooks, camping is just flat out THE best strategy to acomplish that, even if they are a godlike nurse who can just land blinks 100% of the time the correct play when a survivor is clearly way too emotionally invested in unhooking RIGHT NOW is is to camp it out.
I promise you. I PROMISE YOU, that if you just count to flipping 15 before even going to rescue and rescue late in each hook phase, you will find camping way less of a problem. Especially if you can do a psychological gen pop to panic the killer. Sure, some killers are going to hard camp, and you gotta take that L, but if your not in garbage ranks that is going to be rare, and usually a killer hardcore camps because they noticed your thirsty.
There is absolutely no rush to rescue. There is no difference between unhooking 1 second into phase 1 and 59 seconds other than the fact that the unhook at 59 seconds has given your team an effective 177 seconds of gen repair time, minus travel time to the hook for your rescuer, and that its MUCH more likely to actually succesfully get pulled off.
Also, while we are at it, other basic hook misplays survivors often make include: Trying to suicide rescue in basement, looping above basement or near hook making a rescue while the killer is confirmed in a chase impossible, thus wasting that chase as an opening to rescue, and sending two people to rescue. Its understandable you don't want to gen jockey all day, if you want to be the looper, fine, but if you want to decoy the killer away from the hook just repair a gen right in its LoS to basically tell them to their face "Stop camping or we will make you lose this game."
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Different killers for sure have different needs. On Pig I tend to run strong regression, especially ruin-surveillance, because the goal of Pig is to get a lot of hook states while the gen count is high and she 'detects' survivors by having traps on them that make their movements very predictable.
But say... Pyramid head maybe wants one regression perk and to focus on detection overall, because his goal is to just go on a downing spree and constantly to be sending people into cages, due to his unique feature of having a shorter proportional downtime from hooking compared to overall survivor repair time assuming 3 survivors and only 1 rescuer, than any other killer. So he wants to just constantly chain chase to chase.
There is nothing wrong with regression perks, but they definitely aren't the end all be-all. I think killers could use a liiiiil more regression in their base kit because the average killer DOES depend on them a bit too much (Good luck playing say... Ghosty or Trapper consistently without one), but if you don't run one you aren't inevitably doomed.
However, the reason they are so popular is simple: If your really good at killer, you don't need whispers to know a survivor is nearby in general. It makes the detection aspect easier, but it still exists without it. However, you literally cannot punish survivors for stopping gens without regression perks like pop or new ruin. So these perks give you capabilities you do not really get from any killer power or base kit effect. Its the same as how killer powers bias heavily towards things that either bypass loops or give strong map mobility, rather than instadown effects or detection effects: Detection and instadown perks are dime a dozen, but the ONLY way to get map mobility is powers.
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The current design trend they seem to be going for are 'unlinked' strong tiles. So you have good tiles all over the map, but deadzones between them.
This forces the survivors to end their loop on a given tile with a strong breakaway, like a won 50/50, to get the distance needed to get to the next tile, without eating a hit.
Most of the worst maps in DBD for killer are the worst maps not because of the NUMBER of resources, but their placement clusters them, as zones sorta scale exponentially: A 2 window jungle gym on its own is strong, but a 4 window jungle gym is FAR more than twice as powerful, and if the gyms are too close to each other that is what it effectively becomes.
This is why Ormond still feels like a neutral map despite not having many of its stronger loops nerfed too badly: Simply by removing some along the sides and concentrating them into 'corners' with a central building that has strong transitional tools but not a strong loop, you still have plenty of resources for the survivors to win, but now they have to actually win mindgames at loops to extend chases because simply knowing how to loop isn't enough anymore. Looping is a non-skill based activity, especially around low walls, that just lasts as long as it lasts if you know the loop, while being forced to master transitions IS a skill based activity and good killers will do better on the transitions than bad ones.
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@Moundshroud said:
Me personally, I think DS should be changed as follows:
- DS activates every time you are unhooked and can be used multiple times in a game.
- The timer, which never pauses for anything, is 30/45/60 depending on the level of the Perk.
- DS deactivates the moment you do anything other than run, vault, or go in/out of a locker.
- Thus you cannot self-care, heal, be healed, repair, open gates, etc. without turning it off.
- DS will not activate during the ECG, but if activated prior the timer will run normally.
That's it. This compromise prevents the Perk from being used to do "other" things and makes it entirely for gaining some ground and counter the tunneling tactic a bit. The trade off is you get to use it more than once.
This is basically old DS with a very minor limit that makes the killer literally unable to hook you after any given hook, but STRONGER. Absolutely not. DS was nerfed in the way it was nerfed for a reason, and while it is still not ideal it is MUCH better with a timing window limitation that lets killers avoid DS if they play cleverly.
You need to understand this version of DS you are proposing was the lowest point of DBD like... ever... and was one of the direct causes of the 2017 killer strike that nearly killed the game.
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I don't think the killer isn't a power role because of winrate. Its not a power role because so much of a killer's time is spent being impotent or unable make progress towards you want to accomplish due to animation locks, 'safe zones,' ect.
Obviously this is critical to balance, but its why killer doesn't feel good. Ring around the Rosie is a bad mechanic to make you feel like a powerful horror monster, and the game's bias towards fast paced play after vacuum was added, survivor speed decreased (It was critical to stop loops but also high speed made, ironically, stealth play better, as losing the killer in a chase visually was more rewarded as you displaced more distance) all the detection perks were buffed/added, made the game more and more tag and less high stakes hide and seek.
Fixing this is tricky, but there are a lot of little ways to do it if the game is going to remain fast paced. For example, pallet stuns could instead of taking away camera control just make your camera 'recoil' and tilt a bit while you can still look around. Vaulting could not lock the camera (though this is a MUCH bigger balance change than it seems). Killers could get freed up from being camera locked on pickup which has the side benefit of stopping 'unstoppable' flashlight saves (Which TBH are a terrible mechanic. I would prefer flashlights to be slightly faster but never something you can just auto-land due to an animation lock so its about surprising the killer).
The killer doesn't necessarily need buffs. They need QoL changes that make it less tilt inducing and make the average game a better experience. Being the killer is often nauseating, especially ones with movement powers, and is frustrating because a LOT of your game time is spent with the game controlling your character. The killer has a 65% killrate at the high end, and its generally at this ideal distribution of 1 or 3 kills average, rather than lots of no kill or 4 kill games, which I think is actually more important than kill rate, ideally killers should never be 'blown out' an the best survivor should live, even if the emblem system doesn't reward this. So balance wise it feels ok, its just blowout games or situations where your outplayed feel REALLY awful as a killer in a way that they don't as a survivor, because your forced to continually participate in your own defeat while survivors get the 'benefit' of helplessness and a bit of a cool down period to recollect themselves.
Another thing that could change is making a hatch escape as good as a sacrifice with a no-one surviving being a bonus emblem wise to reduce hatch anxiety. The killer emblem system is kinda awful because while its trying to encourage killers drawing out the game what it actually does is heavily encourage killers to snowball the game by getting an early kill or two and then just sorta holding the game hostage to farm chases and brutality before going in for finishing off the last two survivors and probably losing a hook stage or three to a hatch. The hatch is absolutely a fantastic mechanic that allows solo survivors to have their skill always count even if their team are pseudo-sapient potatoes because the fact the killer has a more limited map presence than the entire survivor team lets you bang out two gens then find it, but it just is a real feels bad mechanic for the killer because the hatch ISN'T really a skill based mechanic for the killer, unless your doing super comically well and can afford to search for it due to not being gen pressured at all.
Also, end game collapse was a downright silly idea as a way to prevent survivors taking the game hostage after they won by just hiding in the map for 1 hour after the gates were open, and transparently a way to let survivors teabag at exit gates still even during blowout games and to force killers to continually participate in their own loss. It is actually shameful DBD prioritized this negative experience over just adding a flipping concede button that instantly pays out survivors for the remaining gens, gate open, and heals and ends the match. You want to know why survivor Q can take so long? Its because devs make more work for themselves to keep experiences in the game that solely exist to allow people to BM at game end.
TL;DR: Killer just needs a lot of things that make it feel better, more than a power boost. A big problem with DBD's design is that areas that frustrate survivors get immediate, extreme attention, while major killer QOL issues like FLIPPING GRAB CANCELS aren't even on the radar.
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Ultimately if the survivor side is psychologically incapable of doing gen pressure rather than dumb imsta rescues, I want them to lose 100% of their games. DS is in a super healthy spot because it punishes the killer hard for greeding and camping poorly, but rewards you a lot when survivors aren't pressuring you. This hypothetical basekit DS is STRONGER than regular DS because it undoes the main thing that made new DS fair, which was the timing window. Now if your a killer and you stop a trash rescue you can slug, get a free chase, and pick up later. DS merely buys breathing room and clutch moments in EGC, rather than a full extra life at the killer's expense.
Now a basekit thing that makes it so hook farming your own team means you trade places with the survivor you farmed if they go down? That would be silly and immersion breaking, but would ACTUALLY solve the 'tunnel problem.'
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@Kees_T said:
Yes it should.
As a weaker version. DS effect is permanent, but, If one of these conditions are met:
- The Killer hooked another Survivor
- If your healing bar reached 50%
- You total time on a generator exceeded 10 seconds
- End-game collapse begins
The DS effect will be removed immediately.
With those conditions, it's real effect will be only to prevent Killer from chasing the same guy, and it can't be abused. Since only 1 survivor can have this effect, he will be forced to chase other Survivors, or if the Killer really wants to chase the guy with the DS, the survivor will have the chance to loop the Killer for what amount of time he can, and then DS him.
This is basically old DS.
They got rid of old DS for a reason.
If people try to rescue you, and they screw up, and the killer outplays you? The killer deserves that hook. Tunneling is a fake problem in the game, ultimately it is on the survivors to make correct plays after the killer wins the chase, it isn't the killer's problem if the survivors just refuse to play correctly, and tunneling occurs when survivors play poorly.