bm33
bm33
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Just starting out with I'm not saying these are justifiable/OK reasons to go next, I'm not defending going next, just that I think these are some reasons that have lead to the increase in the mentality to go next.
SBMM causing matchmaking to only count gate escapes/kills, challenges to complete rifts, time limited rifts/events/modes causing burnout, and doing more to make Survivor escape rate 40% but not really doing anything to increase the fun of playing survivor.
In both the old rank matchmaking and SBMM any survivor that has played enough can tell the likelyhood at the start of match if it will be a match they could win or will lose. With the old rank mode you could have a match you knew you wouldn't escape but at the very least you could do things to prevent dropping ranks and being matched with worse teammates. While the ranking system had its issues it allowed you to at the very least safety pip just by playing out a losing match so it did encourage people to stick it out and do bare minimum to be a useful teammate. If you hid all match for hatch and didn't do anything to help the team you weren't going to be rising in the ranks to be matched with those that were useful (rainbow ranks matchmaking being exception). With SBMM there's no saving your matchmaking for better teammates the next round, dying in first 5 minutes is the same as dying in 15 minutes. That incentive to stick out a match is gone.
While rift/challenges are a way to get people to play DBD way more often it also made people not want to waste time in matches they wouldn't be able to progress/complete a challenge. Need to use Deliverance but are first found and hooked, need to do something/stay in killers terror radius but it's scratched mirrors Myers, need to blind killer but they're running Lightborn, need to get iri emblem in Unbroken but you are hooked once, etc. would all be situations people would go next rather than play the match. Is it a good reason to quit? No but the rift itself is limited time, most people have a limited amount of time to spend gaming and playing out a 10-15 match to not really progress the rift isn't worth it to them to stay in when they could go next and try again.
There's already no real break between the time limited rifts. There's now alot of time limited events/modes throughout the year. Add in new DLCs atleast every 3 months (sometimes sooner) so people have a short window at release to use new perks/killer before nerfs and before people have optimal gameplay figured out. The intent is using FOMO to keep people playing, the problem is this also doesn't give people a good opportunity to take breaks and cool off from what is a game designed to frustrate. People are getting burned out and rather than taking a break they're playing through the burnout because there is constantly something else that is time limited in the game to play/earn. When people are burned out they are more easily frustrated so are morely likely to rage quit/go next. While the new go next penalty may seem like good idea to force people to take a break it's going to just increase this issue since they also changed the penalty from decaying over time to requiring 20 matches to be played - instead of just taking a break from playing until the player has cooled off they need to play more which will just continue to add to the burnout frustration.
It's fine that they want the survivor escape rate to be lower than killer but if they want people to play/stick around in a match where they are likely to lose then the fun for that side needs to make up for the frustration of losing more than winning. Most of survivor gameplay is boring. Survivors don't get basekit powers to play around with, they're just skins. Most of the survivor gameplay is staying in one spot - gen for 90 seconds for multiple gens, heal for 16 seconds, totem for 14 seconds, hang on hook not playing game for 70 seconds for 2 hook states, and lay on ground doing nothing for 4 minutes. Gens and hooks have skill checks but those aren't fun, they're just annoying pop ups to make it seem like you're doing something more than staying in one spot. The only interactive gameplay that isn't just sit in one spot is the chase which is why people say it's the most fun part of the game, but on average a survivor spends 1 minute of a match in a chase (so 20 seconds a chase) - it's sad that is such a short time for what is considered the most fun part of the game and it's something that tends to be hit with nerfs to keep it short. Perks to extend the chase tend to have not fun requirements, killers received basekit buffs with the purpose to shorten chases, and there's a bunch of antiloop killers. The only other fun thing is blinding/stunning the killer but do that too many times in a match and the killer isn't having fun because they feel bullied, they leave match frustrated even if they got a 4k and bunch of BP. So when a survivor is going against a killer that increases the boring gameplay of the match where survivors are stuck in one spot and shortens the chase part (which is supposed to be the fun part of the match) it makes survivors quicker to pull the trigger on going next until they have a fun chase match.
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When I play killer I goof around more than play seriously. I'd say I'm more of a maimer than killer. With Trapper my goal is having survivors step in as many traps as possible over actual kills so I'll be one of the players that's dragging the kill stats down for him. If he had trap stats mine would be pretty pretty good.
I disagree with those hours played, no way I played my favorite killer for only 8 hours but my #2 killer has 22 hours. I have spent way more time trapping survivors. I blame the matches where at start I'd hear snap, scream, and then DC sound for ruining my Trappers hours stats.
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I haven't played since the Halloween event or the 2v8 before they tried having bot fills (forget which was more recent) so just looking at all time stats. I do find it funny how far off the DBD stats have for time played v what my playstation says. I know a large chunk is time in matches v time in lobbies/menus but I think there's a large chunk of stats missing from DC matches, especially when I look at my killer stats.
Knowing they start in 2000 makes sense why my survivor character pick rate is the way it is. If it was since I started playing in 2018 the top 3 would definitely be in a different order and there are other survivors that would be much higher up on the list. Kind of funny I stopped using self care unless there was a self care challenge back when it was changed in the big perk rework but it's still listed as my #1 pick by alot. Kind of wish the escape rate showed what it was when I played with friends v when I play solo.
My killer stats seem off, I think because I would play killer less than survivor it makes it more noticeable. I have a low kill rate which is 100% my doing because I would let people go most of my matches unless I had a sacrifice challenge to complete. It's the hours and the character pick rates that seem off. I knew it would be low since I would play survivor more often than killer but 106 hours and 591 matches for killer seems a bit too low. At the very least I would've played killer to complete killer tome challenges, during events when all the killer had to do was not DC for rewards, and if a daily challenge popped up I could complete with a killer I enjoyed playing. I think I may have had more matches with a survivor DC than I realized because that's the only reason I can think of why my pick rate/hours for certain killers seems so off. Doctor is #1 pick, it's the only one that makes sense since I use him for easy BP farming. My Trapper being #3 with only 8 hours played (nearly 30 hours less time than Doctor) doesn't make sense to me when he is my favorite killer and I definitely played him for way more than 8 hours - I thought he'd be #2 with hours closer to Doctor. When I play Trapper I do get alot of DCs (usually after someone steps in trap for first time) so that is the only explanation I can think of for why my Trapper hours are so low compared to Doctor.
Also found it weird that is says I played 591 killer matches and I only kicked 118 gens but I broke 948 walls. That means somehow in atleast 473 matches I didn't kick a single gen, that doesn't seem right at all. The only times I would've not kicked even a single gen would've probably been the times I was trying to get a random tome challenge done that required using a killer power I'm terrible with and didn't bother trying to kick atleast one gen, but there weren't 473 matches worth of those challenges. I never experienced the gen rush squads that prevented me from getting any gen kicks in. If the Doctor is my #1 pick with a 26% pick rate then 26% of the time I was going in to farm for BP, which would've included kicking atleast 1 gen (usually more) every match I played with him.
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I'd love a DBD classic mode.
Have first iteration be exactly how the game was at release - same killers, perks, maps, and broken mechanics. Have each iteration after be the DLC patches in order of release and have the game exactly how it was for the release of the patch. Do it up through like Oni or whoever was last DLC before realm beyond.
Original Mettle of Man, Original Legion, Original Freddy, original Doctor, original sabo, maps before realm beyond, original mori requirements, old key, hatch standoff, etc. Have the old UI and animations. None of the new perks, perk reworks, or basekit buffs/nerfs. Even remove the DC penalty and DC bots from that mode for the iterations that existed before the DC penalty was brought in. No adjusting the balance to fit today's standards.
People could see the broken mechanics and perks from both sides and see the changes the devs made in the game between each DLC. Maybe will appreciate certain things in current state, could also make people want certain changes reverted.
If they don't do DBD classic as a limited game mode it would be cool if they made it possible to do in custom matches. I'd totally do private matches with friends playing old versions of DBD if I could.
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Noticed this woodchuck outside my kitchen window helping us with the weeds that have taken over thanks to all the rain we've been getting. Husband says it's name is Hansel. 😂
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These two just turned 3 at the beginning of the month. Time flies.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3926794#Comment_3926794
I feel like they should just sell it to another studio or dev team, since they aren't going to do much with it anymore.
Should but they won't. They way they ended the announcement it seems like they have another horror game in the works. If Gun were to let another dev takeover TCM and they were to bring it back to life it wouldn't help Gun with the new game, although I don't see many people willing to give Gun a 3rd chance after this.
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@Mooks said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HEXZPP7EDM5U/image.jpeg
(I mean.. I am shocked at how long it lasted)
are there others that are still active? What about that Killer Klowns one? Also werent there some announced projects that were supposed to be out by now?
Illfonic games have small playerbases but after F13 and the original dropping support on Predator Hunting Grounds the devs seem to have changed their outlook by deciding it's OK to have a small player base and keep on supporting/updating the games. Obviously that could change but as of right now that seems to be the way they are treating their games.
They've been working on Ghostbusters Spirits Unleashed for I think 3 years now, they added a bunch of new maps and ghosts - they just added Boogieman from the cartoon series at the beginning of the year after a community vote. All the DLC for Ghostbusters has been free so it's not like they're making sales outside of the original game purchase. The steam chart numbers are terrible BUT it wasn't on Steam at release, it was on Epic and Steam wasn't added for a year+.
KK has received a handful of new maps since release. The game does need bit more love from the devs, more classes need to be added. The 1 year anniversary is coming up so will see what they say, they've already announced adding new challenges and cosmetics. Whenever I log in I'm getting into a lobby in at most 3 minutes and it's either a full or half full lobby, I haven't experienced any dead/full bot lobbies. My lobbies are mostly console players.
Illfonic resuming support on Predator Hunting Grounds was surprising to me but it is part of why I think they changed their outlook on how they are handling games. I don't know much about the game, I played the tutorial when it was free on PS but outside that haven't paid much attention to the playerbase.
Outlast Trials just celebrated 1 year anniversary. They currently are just PVE but a PVP mode is rumored to be coming to the game. Most the information about the PVP mode is from people looking in the files, right now seems like players will be able to invade trials as an imposter.
The devs that made the Evil Dead assym are working on a Halloween game but I haven't seen anything about what type of game it'll be.
I don't know what other assym horrors are around/in the works. I noticed alot tend to be steam/pc only with no plans for a console release so I don't bother keeping up once I see that.
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I feel bad for those that play and love the game. It's a fun game but the hacker issue at the start and the devs stopped caring about the game fairly quickly was it's downfall.
Someone on the reddit pointed out Gun made announcement about stopping support on F13 after 14 months too, this time they can't blame a lawsuit. It's not like they didn't have more content to put into the game - people saw in the game files new characters including a family member named Meadow. It's too bad another developer can't take over.
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Awhile back I started using the "did you have fun?" rating that would appear after each match. If I had 3 matches, either back to back or in short period, where I gave it a did not have fun rating I would close DBD and go play/do something else. If you're not having fun you shouldn't stick around hoping it'll change, you're better off doing something else that you will enjoy.
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If it gets to point where people are able to use the surrender option survivors shouldn't get escape points and killers shouldn't get kill points. That way neither side "wins" by putting the other side into a situation where they are given the surrender option.
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Knock Out has been my least favorite perk in the game for years as a solo survivor. I didn't think they'd ever rework Knock Out to not be a slugging perk. I'm wicked happy they finally did something. This is great and it actual has more use now.
I think they should make it so survivors make a grunt of pain whenever they get hit with this new Knock Out, just like the killers do when they get a pallet stun.
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I wouldn't say other games influence how I play DBD, more so they've influenced me to take very long breaks from DBD. I play a variety of games, just depends on my mood.
Diablo 4 is my relax and just hangout with my brother game. We used to play DBD together but he quit entirely and the time we would've spent in DBD we now spend messing around in Diablo 4.
Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Killer Klowns, and Ghostbusters Spirits Unleashed for assym/pvp. I like the different approaches to assym horror.
Helldivers 2 and Outlast Trials for some fun co-op with friends.
Powerwash Sim, House Flipper, or DevCat games when I want something brainless.
In last couple months I played Plucky Squire, Dredge, and TOEM. I need to finish Cyberpunk 2077.
I'm waiting on the new Assassin's Creed to release, pretty excited about that. My brother gave me Banishers for Christmas so will probably start that up once I finish the new Assassin's Creed or want to take a break from it.
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@ThatRyanB said:
Definitely don't hesitate to share your fondest Cenobite memories with us - we want to hear 'em!
And for convenience-sake since I know there will likely be some questions, I've included the FAQ about this here: dbd.game/3XspEB5
Just curious, why do the perk names have to change? If it was "hex: cenobites plaything" the need to change would make sense but the 3 names seem pretty generic rather than phrases owned by Hellraiser.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
Yes please <3 extend a little bit.
I just sent in my survey! Heck yes! Queue times are still fast in 1v4 so I don't see the impact, but I am on the East Coast. Queue times for killer 2v8 seem to avg around 11 minutes for me but a little longer if I queue by myself for some reason. Seems faster when I add a friend.
When solo it needs to find someone that hasn't readied up as same killer, from previous iterations depending on how popular the killer is you chose it will change your wait time. When you queue up with friend it doesn't need to do that search, just toss you both in a lobby with survivors.
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The player mentality was better which made games more fun. There was a rule of thumb for getting in and staying in red ranks for survivor - 2 gens, 2 totems, 2 unhooks, and 2 chases. For killers you had to hook each survivor multiple times if you wanted to stay in red ranks. This encouraged better gameplay than the only escape/kill matter gameplay we have now. The sweatiest match back then would be considered a light casual match now. More often if one side steam rolled the other they'd switch to farming - they'd want to do enough to pip/safety pip and since kills/escapes weren't a deciding factor for rank killers would let survivors go and survivors would offer themselves up for a kill pretty often.
Since there was more to rank than just escape/die survivors didn't give up as easily as often. Sure you might die BUT you can atleast keep playing and do some stuff to hold your rank. That's not a possibility now since it doesn't matter if you die 30 seconds in or 5 minutes in, you're dropping rank the same. Pretty much the old system gave survivors hope where this system doesn't.
There were alot of rainbow rank lobbies because devs prioritized wait time over making sure those closest in rank were matched together. This was the main complaint people had at the time for being unhappy with ranked mode.
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I've been saying for a time they need to add to the incentive, like putting in double/triple XP on top of the BP incentive for it to really do anything. They're doing the XP bonus right now but they're not using it as an incentive for a role to help queues since it's being applied to all players instead of just the side that needs players.
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Bot lobbies deactivated on Monday? Looks like I'll be playing DBD then.
Not sure how triple XP bonus to "ALL players" helps to encourage people to play the role that needs more players. It should apply only to the side that needs players if it's to help queue times.
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There wasn't going to be bot fills when they had full lobbies of a select number of content creators.
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I miss night time Coldwind, I wish they'd bring it back. As Trapper I would very much love all daytime maps to be night time maps.
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If they added a double/triple XP in with the BP incentive people would earn iri shards faster. They already have the coding for XP events, they'd just have to put it in with the BP incentive.
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Rework Knock Out to not be used for slugging but instead in chase. Change it so it causes blindess and immediately put survivor into deep wound with mangled for a survivor injured with a basic attack in chase. Maybe also hindered if it still isn't useful enough. Survivor needs to be fully healed or downed for the effects to go away.
Also rework blindness to not include dying state/hooked survivors. That only hurts players in solo queue, a swf can say "I'm down/hooked over here."
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@Mandy said:
I'll address this part directly about not listening to players. We really do listen to players, not just the loudly vocal minority however. It's not just about this Forum, it's about every social platform, including non owned by us platforms. It's also about what information we obtain from our own User Research Groups, we have a Playtest Squad as well as Consultants as well as CSAT's. We take feedback from everywhere, and our teams have to make decisions based upon that feedback as a whole.
During the first two iterations people were giving a ton of feedback both here and on your various socials on how to encourage players to play the survivor side that needs players. Having the incentive be more than just BP, like adding an XP bonus as well. Not giving the side that has plenty of players more new content than the side hurting for players - giving killer side an additional 3 killers isn't going to draw people to survivor. Examples of content that could be added to survivor side. A queue priority system so people actually rotate out of playing one side.
I saw more negative feedback for bot fills than positive on Twitter and Facebook when the announcement was made that bot fills were in the PTB and would be coming to events, it definitely did not look like the minority there or here when talks of it first showed up. BHVR surveys most questions seem like they are worded in a way to get the answer the creator of the survey is looking for, and you guys put out atleast 2 versions of the surveys where questions like bot fills are only being sent to a portion of the players actually taking the surveys.
While I know BHVR does listen to players, in this specific situation it doesn't feel like listening when players gave a ton of suggestions for different ways to encourage more players to play survivor, then on multiple platforms said they did not want bot fills, only to now have bot fills while no other method to encourage more people to play survivor is even attempted. If there's something in the pipeline to encourage more people to play survivor that's great, but as long as nothing is said it seems like BHVR isn't listening and is just going to easiest/fastest fix.
Saying you "just don't listen the loud vocal minority" comes across as brushing aside the negative feedback while at the same time doing a passive aggressive insult towards those voicing their feedback that are frustrated with the situation. I get you're probably upset as a community manager to hear it doesn't feel like you're listening, but you tend to choose your words carefully and that phrasing isn't good. DBD has plenty of players to have multiple game modes but the survivor side is hurting for players so bad you need bot fills, they are currently the minority. Saying you won't listen to the "loud vocal minority" it feels like you can use that excuse to write off any survivor complaints. People are genuinely frustrated about bot fill lobbies so please don't just write it off as "loud vocal minority."
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I played back when bots didn't exist and thought the addition of bots would be good. Now I would rather just be down a teammate. I've spectated a bot trying to walk up a hill from the wrong side for over 2 minutes. I've had bots teabag at me to let them heal me when I'm trying to finish a gen. In every game with bots the killers just ignore the bots because they're not going to waste their time chasing a bot when they know bots are helping the team about as much as a person locker hopping. A bot is more likely going to run around doing nothing trying to avoid being in a killers terror radius than actually do anything useful. I've seen multiple killer mains refer to 2v8 with bots as 2v6 because even they know how bad the bots are for survivors.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881620#Comment_3881620
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881620#Comment_3881620
Yeah I'm sure they can make the bots come back for people on the hook at endgame. I don't know if they should though. That's a lot of if/then/priority statements that can turn into a buggy mess really quick or you end up in situations where now you have bots ripping people off hooks mid game with the killer right behind them. There's a lot of things to consider not to mention that there's a very real HUMAN player also on the other team trying to get kills. Should the devs program the bots to function like a swf bot? BC most survivors read the room and if the room doesn't look safe they just leave unless you're swf. Like if they gave survivors this where would it stop bodyblocks, flashlight saves? It's not that I don't think they can, it's that I don't think they should. If survivors in a normal match don't usually go back for each other bc normally the killer is hanging out by the person on the hook why should they go through all the effort to give the advantage to survivor? it's not normal/average survivor behavior. Not to mention that the bot saving could very much play out to be escaping with you, and now the person playing killer also is losing another kill and out bp. I'm just saying, I know it sucks to watch the bot run out, but maybe it's for the best. Idk would that feel fair to you? Personally it doesn't bother me because it's a bot with brakes on it, and I get that. I'm not going to go back and forth about whether it's self learning to a degree or not I've read the bot fixes and laughed uncontrollably. Though to see where they started and what they are doing with them now is assuring to me at least that they are cooking, let them cook. Pretty sure they are still teaching them how to use perks atm and interact with killer powers training AI takes a while. It's not some thing that happens in like 2 hrs. You know those images that say "are you a human" or "making sure you're not a robot" that's companies getting you to train their AI for them to recognize images. Idk if you know that and that's just like basic Machine Learning AI, it's what helped build pattern recognition for unlocking your phone with your face.
The priority the devs set for bots is going to upset a very real HUMAN player no matter which side. Just as it might not feel fair to a killer if a survivor is rescued and escapes during endgame, it doesn't feel fair as survivor watching a bot escape while you (a very real HUMAN) are now losing out on BP (more than a killer gets from a single kill) and guaranteed to die (if someone is saved during endgame a killer still has a chance of getting the kill). YOU may be OK with it because YOU are going to rationalize the whole background of AI learning and give devs a pass in what they choose to tweak or not tweak. The average player is going to get upset with the devs because if they (the very real HUMAN player) loses after a bot escaped or helped someone else escape it is because that is how the devs have programmed the bot to behave.
As for the "normal/average survivor behavior" - in 2v8, where they will be using 2 bots, it is extremely common in solo queue for people to be making end game saves because of the way the cages work and there being 3 doors. Bots will literally run by, ignoring a cage next to a door, to open the door and immediately run out. A very real human player will usually stop to uncage someone, maybe even give them a quick heal. The bots ignoring people in cages, especially those right next to them, once the last gen finishes has and will continue to frustrate the very real HUMAN players on the side that actually needs players so bad that they are adding bot fills. The very real players will be frustrated with the devs who have programmed the bots behavior and decided to use bot fills, that frustration will carry over into next match because every bot in a lobby will be programmed to do the same thing. The only way to not have bot filled lobbies is get a team of 8 (which isn't realistic) because the devs aren't doing anything to encourage more people to play the survivor role. If it was a real person that left someone in a cage to instead open a door and run out it would be frustration with that one person and you'd move on hoping you wouldn't get matched with them again because as a very real human you know that other very real humans all play differently.
As for AI machine learning, yes I know how it works. It genuinely does not matter in this scenario where people will get upset with devs over how a bot behaves. You can keep explaining how AI learning and programming works but it does not matter when in the end the devs gave their stamp of approval when it comes to the current state of bots behavior in public matches - the devs are who the players will be mad at when they get frustrated with bots.
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@HeroLives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881350#Comment_3881350
because it’s probably built to a degree off a self learning model meaning its reactions are built off its time with player interactions. In short if most people didn’t leave the bots in that scenario the bot wouldn’t leave you, but bc the bot in its game got mostly left behind it will mostly leave you. That’s how that works. I’m not being funny but it’s how self learning works. A bot reaction of the own players making….
It was a rhetorical question in an example based off what crogers271 was saying.
When it comes to feelings in the moment of gameplay people are going to be mad at the devs for bot behaviors since the devs can go in and tweak the AI behavior. BHVR did it when it comes to missed skill checks - when bots first came out the devs set the skill check miss to a % that basically made bots nonstop miss, they adjusted the % and while they still miss often in comparison it's not as bad as when they first came out.
The devs have the ability to change the priority of the bots when someone is on hook in end game. If bots were learning what people do in game they'd be sitting in the exit gate waiting for the killer to come over and chase them out, not run straight out the moment an exit opens with the killer no where near. The devs designed the code so when gens are finished the bots prioritize opening the gate and immediately leave so killers don't have to put up with bots hanging out in the exit until they chase them out, the priority to leave also removes end game saves so if a killer is practicing with bots in customs they don't feel crappy from bots going for end game unhooks that result in an escape. Unfortunately the leave priority the devs have set also causes them to leave real survivors to die on hook.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881344#Comment_3881344
To be fair to BHVR, we represent a tiny fraction of the player base (and a weirdly dedicated one at that).So while a majority on the forums might be dead set against adding bots to 2 Vs 8, there might not be a huge negative reaction beyond here.This is definitely a possibility.
I suspect a lot of Survivors in 2 Vs 8 are pretty new to the role anyway and bots might be a little bit more active as teammates.This creates its own problems.
1: Bots don't play fair (kind of obvious being they aren't humans). If they actually pose a challenge to killers, that's not really fun either. I neither want to play against or be carried by a wall hacking bot.
2: There's a difference between being angry at another human, and being angry at code. The first scenario is part of multiplayer games, the second makes you angry at the devs themselves.
Left on hook/cage during end game by human: they must've had a challenge to escape or maybe have had a few rounds where they haven't escape, sucks but that's fine.
Left on hook/cage during end game by bot: why are they devs programming bots to be selfish and save themselves instead of helping the real players???
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@SoGo said:
I have several ideas.
• First, a quickplay feature. Press it, and get a random role. Not sure if many would use it, but still, it could help. It could also come with a bloodpoint, or even a small iri shard bonus.
• Rewards for playing the survivor role (a priority queue ticket for playing several survivor games, the sweet 400% bloodpoint bonus, higher bloodpiont gains in game.... ).
• New classes for survivor. Having only 4 is a bit restrictive.
• Maybe a preference system, like FT13: The Game had, where you can only select the role you prefer. This could be an unpopular thing though, so it's more of a last resort.
All of this they should try before bot fills.
Quick play or preference system to get real people into the survivor role in the first place is probably the simplest solution. I'd say preference system would probably be the winner though in helping queue times. People see survivor with the current incentive bonus and still choose 10+ minute killer queue, the bonus for quick play would definitely need to be more than BP but if that's the case than they could just put that bonus onto role incentives. I said it during the first iteration when BP incentive was 400%, they need to start including iri shards in that too, maybe by adding an XP bonus so players are earning shards and rift fragments faster.
They definitely need to add new classes and abilities thst actually change up gameplay for survivor. The pallet rebuild was the only one last time that added anything interesting to gameplay for survivors. The gen/heal one was useful but they didn't add anything different/fun to gameplay. The silent rushed actions for a few seconds was just bad. They also need to cool it on adding new content to the killer side when they already have an incentive built in of having a teammate. The side with the most new content will always be the one that gets the most players unless that new content is terrible. It happens anytime they release a DLC with just a killer - killer waits skyrocket.
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@Nathan13 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3881317#Comment_3881317
you would think the devs would listen to our feedback but there’s no point in even trying anymore.
It is pretty frustration how they completely ignored feedback, both with suggestions on how to improve the queue times by encouraging people to play survivor and the overwhelming amount of people saying they do not want to have bot teammates.
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@BorisDDAA said:
This will backfire. 2 bots + mending simulator with legion.
Bots will also use all the antidote immediately in any Wesker/Nemesis matches. Anytime someone DCs in match v Wesker or Nemesis the killer will infect the bot and then leave it alone knowing it's going to head straight to an antidote and use them all up. They don't try to use it strategically like a real person.
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I enjoy 2v8, I play it basically nonstop, I was excited for it to come back. Now with the bot announcement I'm not going to bother, not even for the rewards. It's easy to tell a bot from a real player, even if they were to remove "bot" from the name the killer will be able to tell and avoid the bots to focus only on the real players. It's more of a 2v6 now instead of 2v8. Players gave multiple options to encourage more people to play survivor - I had made posts in feedback and commented on other posts both in general and feedback with multiple options and I had seen multiple others do the same but the devs ignored it all. Bot fills should've been a last resort, not the first.
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You can already opt out, in the main menu under options you can turn off crossplay. It won't stop PC cheaters though if they feel like messing with a lobby that doesn't want to play with/against PC players. Before crossplay was a thing I would get PC cheaters in my PS lobbies - they'd be wearing skins that were PC only.
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I have 0 interest in having bot fill lobbies, especially as a survivor. I'm not going to bother with 2v8, or rather 2v6 since the bots are useless and killers will ignore them to focus on the real players. It's a bummer because I really enjoyed the first two iterations, played them daily for hours as a survivor while they were around.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879773#Comment_3879773
Same here. I was not excited for 2v8, I really dont like this mode (I dont want to play with more randoms than I have to in 1v4 already and I dont think it is really exciting as Killer, since there is not really a challenge… Plus you can get griefed by the other Killer player, which also did not really made me like the mode more after I sat in a queue for 20 minutes).
But I want to play even less with Bots involved. I think Bots were a big mistake for the game, there is 0 difference for the Survivors if there is a Bot or a DCed teammate. Just yesterday I watched a Bot trying to blind a Killer while the Killer is walking towards them (something only Beginner Survivors would try) and then missing the DS when picked up. And this is supposed to be helpful? I advice everyone to just spectate a Bot if they get the chance to do it and then somebody should tell me that the Bot is better than just one less player.
IMO if they decide to implement Bots into 2v8, this clearly shows that something is wrong with that mode. I get it for PTBs, but if a gamemode requires you to implement Bots for one side, then clearly that side is having problems which should be solved. But I doubt they can be solved.
I honestly think (and have written already) that they should make 2v8 a PvE-Mode where 2 Killers can play against 8 Bots. This way Killers could play with a Friend without having to sit in 20 minute queues and without Survivors having to play with Bots. I dont think this is ideal either, but I think it is a better solution than the bandaid-fixing they try at this point with 2v8.
I spectated a bot after I died during one of the regular 1v4 matches I played before the anniversary event started up. I had died and when I went in to spectate the bot was in the middle of trying to walk up a hill the wrong way on Mother's Dwelling. No idea how long it had been doing that for but I spectated it for over 2 minutes doing it.
For longer than a minute it was just walking into the hill with a gen but it was trying to walk up on the side that looks like a ramp but isn't. Then every like 15-20 seconds it started to turn around, run a couple feet away from the hill, then turn back and start walking into the hill at the fake ramp again. Did this for another minute until someone was downed/hooked. I'm guessing the person that was being chased was close enough for the bot to sense killer was near but far enough that there was no terror radius sound, so the bot would go to run away from killer then realize killer wasn't there and go back to the hill. I stopped watching once it went to go for the rescue.
During 2v8 the bots were absolutely useless because of 2 killers terror radius, they just run around aimlessly. They are terrible for getting heals because they just miss skill checks drawing the killers over. If you don't let them heal you or you don't heal them they just stay glued to your side teabagging. I was healthy opening a chest in 2v8 and the healthy bot just stayed squatted next to me, when I hopped on a nearby gen is when the bot ran away. They will head straight for someone in a cage or teabag at you when you're injured to let them heal you but if a person is slugged the bot will leave them there. The moment the gens are done the bot won't do anything to help other players and instead just leaves, they will even run by a person in a cage to run out the exit rather than stop for a second to get them out.
You're right that the need to add bots to one side should be a clear indicator that something should be done to attract players to that side. The most obvious issue with 2v8 attracting more killers is the devs give the killer side more new things in each iteration when the killer gameplay itself is different enough to attract players on its own. First time both sides had new things to try but the overall gameplay of having a teammate as killer attracted more to the killer side. Second iteration killer side received new classes and new killers while survivors had the same classes slightly tweaked with only the abilities being new but only one ability actually did anything to change up gameplay in any interesting way. Next iteration killers are again getting new killers, I doubt the survivors will get even an equivalent amount of new classes/abilities. The side that's hurting for players is the side that should be given more new stuff but the devs instead just fill that side with bots and continue to give the side not hurting for players more new stuff.
If they want to fill lobbies with bots they should allow customs to do the various game modes and allow people to earn challenges, BP, XP, etc. there, just turn off grades. That way if people are fine playing with/against bots from the start of a match they can play customs, then bots can remain only as a DC fill outside of custom - give players a choice in how they play with bots instead of forcing it in them.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
I enjoy 2v8 mode - probably more than regular mode - but I absolutely will not play if BHVR moves forward with the terrible idea of putting bots in lobbies. This idea received almost universal negative feedback and I hope the devs will actually listen
I also hope the devs listen to the feedback about not wanting bots. I was excited for 2v8 until the devs announced that they'd fill lobbies with bots in event queues, now I'm not going to bother with it. I have 0 interest in playing a mode where I have bot teammates at the start of the match.
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Both sides have players that complain about annonymouse mode because they don't like that they can stalk the profiles in pregame lobby and they can't send messages to the players post game. They then try to shame the anonymous players, usually accusing the players of being cheaters or complain about something petty from the match.
Before anonymous mode it was the same for people that set their profiles to private. It'd anger the people that wanted to stalk the profiles and they would say it must be cheaters/bad players, not people that didn't want someone harassing them because they're a sore winner/loser.
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@Emeal said:
Speaking of the bug reporting, Would it be possible to get a better system to search for already reported bugs?
Like its not possible to search specific Killers, Cosmetic, or Map issues. It seems its all dumped into one thread and the message above is:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/MJ7SBE0WAXQM/image.png
Okay, but I don't know what other players have called it, you are basically asking me to spend i dont know how long, reading threads or trying search words to see if anyone have said this before, Worst of all, the search function looks at ALL THREADS in ALL SUB FORUMS.
I don't think its good enough, and I think people's good faith to reporting an issue runs out real fast when the service provided for figuring it out is so not good enough.
I think the mod that closes the report due to it being a duplicate should attach a link to the bug report post they want people to use, that way the person can go add their experience/information there.
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@Morboth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876816#Comment_3876816
Then perhaps do as I said: give survivors who team up a malus: the more survivors team up, the greater their malus. Or give the killer a bonus! +2%/+3%/+5% haste bonus if pitted against SWF, for instance.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876916#Comment_3876916
I don't really follow what you wrote here. I'm not trying to artificially boost my MMR, is that is what you're saying. Quite the contrary, I'm more than content with being teamed up with absolute losers and destroying them utterly. Sure, I did try and knock out a survivor quickly from the game during Chaos Shuffle (the beauty of knowing that not everyone and their mother will have Decisive Strike), but then with non-modifier queue I try and pick them off rotating so that I don't get knifed with Decisive Strike.
Sure, if they should ever remove or nerf Decisive Strike…. oh boy, I would literally pick survivors one by one. But alas, that's never gonna happen.
EDIT: Reading your comment again, I get what you mean: nah, I don't tunnel survivors compulsively (mostly because DS makes it impossible to do so), so no, it's not that artificially inflating my MMR. I'm right where I should be, only that I'm constantly teamed up against 4-player SWF.
I just played three matches: two of them made of 4-players SWF. This is getting tiresome.
A 4SWF has a 43.09% survival rate, only 2.75% more than solo. Even at high MMR it's under 50% survival rate. There's no reason to give people playing with friends malus while giving killers a bonus for facing them when the survival rates are under 50%. Punishing half of the player base for playing with their friends when they have under 50% survival rate is how you kill the survivor player base, killers will get long wait times and eventually BHVR filling regular 1v4 lobbies with bots.
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I think having map offerings ban realms would be nice, have sacrificial ward cancel the ban. Devs could see the stats for which realms receive the most bans, would be a sign it should be looked into for changes so people want to go there instead of avoid it.
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If you watch the streams around release (they're on the official DBD YouTube channel) the devs talk alot about how the game is designed to be played with friends as an option. This narrative of "it was never meant to be" is made up by people who don't like SWF.
They were running out of time when release was coming up and had to decide between KYF and SWF at release - they went with KYF because they figured people would really want to do some private lobbies chasing their friends. When they announced this they said that SWF would definitely be coming after release.
As for comms in game they also addressed why they didn't - to save time/resources. They didn't see the point of making in game comms when people could use discord/platform comms to talk with their friends.
As for wanting to remove SWF from lobbies - when the devs shared stats with a breakdown of the player base SWF made up half of the survivor playerbase, 2SWF being the majority and 4SWF being at most 5%. If you were to remove SWF from the lobbies that would be half of the survivor playor base. Killers complained during 2v8 so much about wait times that they're now planning to add bots to event matches. If you remove half of the survivor player base from regular 1v4 that will definitely increase killer wait times and bots will be added to that queue as well. If you're fine playing against bots as killer then you are free to play the custom game mode now where you are guaranteed to never run into a SWF.
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Enough that I stopped playing regular 1v4 mode and the event modes need to be interesting or have rewards I like to get me to play them.
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-Knock Out reworked to not be a slugging perk.
-Matchmaking taking into account load outs on both sides. Someone going in with a weak load out shouldn't be paired against someone using the strongest load out possible.
-Survivor matchmaking to include emblems instead of only escaped/die. This would hopefully help prevent survivors that are useful from getting paired as often with survivors that are useless.
-Periodic vaulting of perks. There's over 100 on each side and more perks get added every 3 months. Do a 3 month rotation where random 30 perks on each side are available. That'll actually stir things up instead of the current nerf a perk to useless and over buff a different perk to change the meta.
-Survivors able to see each other's perks in menu.
-Ability to see what challenges you have selected and their progress in the menu screen. The amount of times I forget by the time I'm loaded into the match is just sad. 😂
-Map offerings used to remove a realm as an option instead of increase the odds.
-Make Coldwind night time again
-More ground cover for Trapper traps
-Make Trapper traps blend in better with the maps so survivors can't see them from a mile away like on Eerie
-Option to turn off the custom music for certain killers and replace with the original DBD music.
-Option to use a large amount of BP at a time. So say you have 1 million BP, instead of sitting hitting the center web over and over you can enter 1 million or 500k BP and the bloodweb will automatically jump the the equivalent level and you'll receive a certain number of random items/add ons/offerings equivalent to that many levels.
-2v8 permanent, keep killer selection to 8 with original 3 always available and rotation of the other 5 killers every 1.5 - 3 months. Add more survivor classes.
-Chaos shuffle, remove add ons/items/offerings. As long as those are available it's more like semi-chaos shuffle.
-Events like Halloween and Anniversary, since they're now in their own separate modes, make it a requirement to do specific event objectives to kill/escape instead of optional and replace load outs with classes related to the event. This way someone can't just join event mode knowing if they ignore the event stuff they can just dominate the other side trying to enjoy the event.
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@Firellius said:
What turns me off the most from killer gameplay is how flat it is. Find survivor → Chase survivor → Hook survivor → Rinse and repeat. And I don't buy for a second that camping, tunnelling or slugging do anything to make it feel less flat.
TCSM, I've only ever played killer, and it's so much more dynamic. Chase sequences are a lot more dynamic in and of themselves due to a lot of subtle differences, what with health bars and stamina systems and the different types of escape methods the victims have.
But on top of that, most killers have some kind of 'set-up' thing they can do. Bubba can break barriers, the Cook can put padlocks on doors, Hitchhiker can place down traps… So even if you're not in chase, you can strategise on where to place your tools to try and catch the victims off-guard, or which areas to deny.
And then on top of that there's Grandpa. With victims having much better stealth in TCSM than survivors in DBD, Grandpa is actually added as a fantastic additional way for the family to put pressure on their opponents. This makes it worthwhile to not just chase victims, but also to go around collecting blood from the self-replenishing blood-buckets and go feed grandpa to improve his ability to highlight victims.
With the constant shift between patrolling, setting up, chasing, and blood collection/depositing, gameplay for the Family feels a LOT more dynamic than killer does in DBD. And I think that's what is hindering killer the most in DBD, there's just nothing to do. The higher level you get, the more methodical these chases become, too, resulting in them becoming more same-y.
Instead of band-aiding everything with perks, BHVR should start brainstorming ways to expand on gameplay for all parties involved. We've had glyphs for ages now and they're ONLY ever being used for challenges, not as a substitution for band-aid perks, for example.
I play both roles in TCM but I've played killer way more than victim there. It just feels more fun to play killer in TCM than DBD. I get bored with killer in DBD because like you said it falls flat and for me it doesn't feel rewarding.
Each match of TCM feels different because of the maps, the different ways to escape, and what characters your teammates choose v what characters the other team choses. Are you going to be more of a chase killer in the match or a support killer? In DBD, unless it's 2v8, you are the chase killer all the time. Survivor in DBD you can have the gen jockey, the rescuer/healer, and the runner - you aren't necessarily limited to a single role, although with the game becoming more and more competitive survivors are getting pushed into focusing more and more on just gens which is a bummer.
It's a shame the devs in TCM dropped the ball on fixing issues/bugs in a timely manner because it is such a fun game for both sides, even DBD brought in ideas from TCM - 2v8 survivors get an ability and the ability is on cool down at the start of the match just like in TCM.
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Hands and Leland from TCM. Hands being able to trap things with electricity and Leland barge killer perk would be tons of fun. Could also bring over Virginia and have a smoke bomb perk with her since that's kind of her ability in TCM. If doing a crossover where DBD characters go to TCM then Trapper and Dwight would definitely work.
Killer Klowns using cotton candy to slow down survivors, sneak attack in a pizza box, or use a balloon doggy to lead you to survivors. Also if using the Killer Klowns theme song it'd be a terror radius music I would actually look forward to. Obviously our Clown would head over there.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
they should make a game mode called “dbd classic” and make it where your in version 1.0.0
No entity blocker, bloodlust, REAL infinites, No Nurse, No exhaustion, 20 second sprint burst, insta BNP, Traps under hooks.
Show the players that were taking modern dbd for granted
I want them to do classic DBD game modes but do multiple iterations with each major patch from release in 2016 to Ash in 2019. I want each mode be exactly how the game was on release day of those patches. Broken Legion, broken MoM, old hatch with keys mid match and hatch grabs, original Freddy and Doctor, etc.
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I've seen things from the Feedback section eventually get into the game. Someone a couple years ago had made a very detailed post about how to fix some issues on Blight for players using controller, McLean had responded and thanks to that post some issues on Blight were fixed.
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I stopped when he tried using a known lobby bug in TCM as "proof" that killer side is hurting there. TCM has a lobby bug where if someone leaves as killer the lobby won't fill until a survivor leaves. Once a survivor leaves the lobby basically instantly fills both roles. It's a bug that's been there since pretty much release and is complained about a ton on their reddit, discord, and socials. TCM has issues, alot of issues, but the killers being weak or not having agency isn't one of them and definitely isn't what has caused the player count to drop.
As for DBD with slugging and killer agency, what about the slugged survivor's agency? It's not a bot (yet) but it is a person that is prevented from playing the game for up to 4 minutes. No one realistic is asking for a complete removal of slugging because there are circumstances where it is understandable to slug for a short period of time. The issue is the long periods of time where all a survivor can do is lay on the ground collecting crows. They can't participate and can't move on to a new match where hopefully they can actually play the game. Slugging for long periods needs to be addressed.
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Stats only include regular 1v4, not the 11 separate events, modifiers, and modes that were available in 2024. This is probably why most of the stats seem so off.
https://twitter.com/DeadbyDaylight/status/1881779001813082210?t=oSD4n7wWcPUSPOZzbH-R5A&s=19 -
Longest I'm not sure, I got stuck in some hatch standoffs and 3 gens that were pretty long.
Shortest though was before bots replaced people and there was no DC penalty. Load into match on Badham, my teammates apparently loaded in near Leatherface while I loaded in across map. Before I even got to a gen my first teammate DC'd the moment they heard Leatherface start up his chainsaw (which was as soon as we could move our characters) and the second teammate DC'd a moment after. Third teammate pulled from locker within seconds of the first two DCs, I forget if they DC'd on hook or while being carried to the hook. I started running to where I hoped the hatch would be and had only made it a few steps before the killer DC'd too. I think total time in match may have been under a minute, definitely less than two minutes.
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@Linkdouken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872997#Comment_3872997
That's a good point - I haven't compared the hours with the PS recap.
Quite a drastic difference in your hours for sure.
Strange that they haven't been more specific what with all the different events we've had.
Did your most chosen survivor or killer look right?
For survivor it was Zarina which makes sense if it was regular 1v4 mode since it was the Zarina rift challenges. I played mostly Kate though in the events so should've been her for most played for last year. Even if it was my entire career, not just last year, I think it probably should've been Kate because even though I did main Zarina for a time I mained Kate alot longer and during my heaviest play period of DBD.
As for killer it was Doctor which could be right since I tend to go between him and Trapper when I do play killer. Doctor I would've been able to play during Anniversary and Halloween where he's my easy BP farming killer. I also would've been playing those modes as killer more than 2v8 just because of the wait, although towards end of 2v8 when the wait lessened I did play alot of Trapper.
The games played as killer is 19 which is odd when I completed more than 19 killer rift challenges in the event modes. I took a long DBD break after Nic Cage was released so I had a bunch of killer challenges I was able to complete in the events.