Vishlumbra
Vishlumbra
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The fact you can always come back from dying state makes it good enough, specially with the combination of toxic perks some people bring paired with it.
Can’t have a permanent unbreakable without consequences, period.
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Added on top.
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2024, 2 vs 8 is the most survivor sided mode ever created.
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I been playing solo queue Trapper, while I set up traps on gens I have close, my teammate goes and pressures survivors.
I try to protect 3-4 gens with traps and such and very rarely interact with my teammate or help him chase. I been having good results, quite a few 8k wins, 7-6k and only lost like 3 out of 20 matches, this is not a standard tho, I might been lucky, cause as survivor I haven’t lost a single game.
I think that medic should be toned down a bit and maybe give brute a gen regression perk after hooking.
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Oni with Plague
Oni with Legion
Sadako with Pinhead
Pig and Trapper
Sadako with Dredge
Sadako with Hag
Nurse and Plague
Hillbilly and Bubba
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People seem to enjoy it because is incredibly survivor sided :P
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I think medic class is way overpowered and scout resetting pallets forever is also way too much. They also have perpetual unbreakable.
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Hopefully it gets fixed, maybe paired with a small buff.
If they work on the issue, perhaps they could buff it a bit, would be really cool if Sadako intermittent invisibility became stronger as people gain more condemned, would give her a very unique anti loop and amazing mind games. (Not to count out great jump scares)
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3838605#Comment_3838605
The majority of killers are going to have a hard time stabilizing a game when you lost 60% of the objectives during the first chase. If you want to regulate how killers should act in order to give you a good experience playing, you have to reward the gameplay you want them to have.
That's on the players though. We had little trouble and if we could do it, those better than us can as well. We asked a similar question in the previous post that's relevant here: What could the devs reward that would be acceptable? What would be worth it for people to follow this gameplay?
That second paragraph has a flaw: if both sides are trying to win its down more to skill and luck rather than the perks. The killers affect the gen times via perks or pressuring survivors (via brains, powers, good ol fashioned brute force, or most likely a combination) enough while the map can either help or hinder their ability to do so. What super perk? The hookstate trade? We think it's good but we're not going to see it as super unless it completely removes a hookstate.
Here’s how it works: A team assigns a killer and faces the other team survivors, in that first set, the killer is aiming for the best possible result, being, killing every single survivor while having the most possible generators up. All 3 leagues allow face camping hook, survivors cannot free themselves even if they fill the anti camp meter.
And here's where our point is proven. See one of us actually tried a competitive tournament back in 2018 (don't remember exact date) and there were a different rules than what you stated here. Then you point that survivors being handicapped which brings multiple thoughts such as "why are people worried enough about that to install a rule?" and "these people camp this much and are supposed to be the best?" and the like. If the killer camps it's no wonder gens go fast, the killer isn't being a threat.
it’s something that shows which are the most effective strategies to achieve the best possible result and diagnoses (granted, to a degree) the current state of the game.
Maybe it's because those players rely on said strategies to much and are bluntly unable to do much else? It shows what works best for them as each and every player is different. It's a similar vein to how many killers have a "main" who they excel with and suck with others even if they're considered "high tier".
Riot games does not balance LoL based on community feelings and “have fun protocols”, they evaluate the power of each champion based on their maximum possible performance.
Here the problem is that many times we end up balancing the game based on players feelings, so when one side plays to a decent capacity, the other side (killer) has a super tough tim
{Entity damn we need to start condensing}
League is different than DBD. League is an actual competitive game, DBD is no where close. DBD has much less players than League. DBD has more ways for players to straight up make others miserable for no practical reason than League (League to its credit can make players miserable but it's atleast in a practical sense).
They could
Extra necessary objectives would be fine with us but as we've seen how much gens can possibly regress it's would be unwise to implement. Some of these can be flipped to the killer. They might have had that idea with what happens when killers utilize the strategies you say are necessary with multiple perks that make things a pain (side note: what makes survivors truly unhookable? We can only think of temporary). We thought we weren't balancing things based on "an utopian concept of people acting by the approved norms of niceness." So why add a slowdown that can be used regardless if said strategies are used or not (disregarding the fact that people sadly only did pumpkins when effectively forced and currently totems work under this same idea)
This is referring to the stats BH provided and the claims of the survivor community regarding killer strategies.
So we're unsure of what specifically your addressing here so if we missed the point we'll apologize and ask for specific things. When perks change they affect each killer differently yes but we ask why on occasions that's not enough? Since reworking takes more time and effort why not use these as stp gap measures?
I just want to “plant the seed” of: Sure, prevent slugging, prevent tunneling, but actually test out and give us something that leaves the game balanced.
We don't repeat this to be mean, we repeat this cause it seems true to us: your arguments are not doing a good job of what you're trying to do.
We're ignoring this next paragraph cause "impossible to win" is heavily untrue.
As for the math, we've stated to others that clean numbers don't work in DBD because of one important element: the human element. Humans are prone to errors, which adds unknown variables in those clean numbers.
Edit: if we missed something please let us know as I (the rulebreaker responding) have a hard time reading all that and keeping it organized on a tiny phone
That's on the players though. We had little trouble and if we could do it, those better than us can as well. We asked a similar question in the previous post that's relevant here: What could the devs reward that would be acceptable? What would be worth it for people to follow this gameplay?
Halloween event (Haunted by Daylight) gave a nice bonus to bloodpoints in the form of pumpkins, opening portals and even using the void crystals, each of those rewarded the players, also extended the matches and they granted an extra advantage to both sides if they did such sidequests. I think that we need to take a look at interactions between perks, generator repair time and in general, extend the game a bit.
The fact that some skilled players manage to recover doesn’t mean that every killer can, especially without support or incentives. With the wide range of player skill levels, any gameplay adjustments need to work for the broader player base, not just the elite few. Balance isn’t about what some players can do; it’s about providing a fair baseline for everyone. By offering rewards or adjustments that encourage certain gameplay styles, developers could create more positive experiences for both sides, regardless of skill.
Survivors are naturally rewarded for cooperation, healing, and unhooking—things that make the game more fun for everyone. Killers don’t have the same incentives for spreading hooks or going easy on certain tactics. Adding rewards for these styles of play could really balance out the experience.
And here's where our point is proven. See one of us actually tried a competitive tournament back in 2018 (don't remember exact date) and there were a different rules than what you stated here. Then you point that survivors being handicapped which brings multiple thoughts such as "why are people worried enough about that to install a rule?" and "these people camp this much and are supposed to be the best?" and the like. If the killer camps it's no wonder gens go fast, the killer isn't being a threat.
Well first of all rules have changed because the game has changed and evolved.
The need for camping or tunneling often reflects the balance issues within the game. Competitive players may use these strategies because they’re effective, but if killers feel forced into these methods, it signals areas where DbD could provide more tools for killers to play effectively without limiting survivor interactivity. When survivors complete gens too quickly, killers often feel they have no choice but to camp or tunnel to have a chance at catching up. It’s not that killers want to play this way—it’s a response to survivors speeding through objectives. If survivors weren’t rushing as much, killers could play more strategically across the map
Maybe it's because those players rely on said strategies to much and are bluntly unable to do much else? It shows what works best for them as each and every player is different. It's a similar vein to how many killers have a "main" who they excel with and suck with others even if they're considered "high tier".
The competitive meta has naturally adapted to survivors working in teams with efficient coordination. Survivors have access to perks, items, and strategies that can make them significantly harder to catch or eliminate. Tunneling and slugging counteract these advantages, rebalancing situations where survivors may be trying to outpace the killer entirely by focusing solely on generators or using "second chance" perks like Decisive Strike and Borrowed Time. You are also implying that profesional players that get paid to win are bad?
League is different than DBD. League is an actual competitive game, DBD is no where close. DBD has much less players than League. DBD has more ways for players to straight up make others miserable for no practical reason than League (League to its credit can make players miserable but it's atleast in a practical sense).
Balancing a game isn’t about preventing players from having fun; it’s about ensuring that both sides can win if they use effective strategies. Riot Games balances League of Legends based on the highest potential of each champion, which creates a fair playing field, even if it sometimes results in certain champions or strategies being less enjoyable for some. This type of balancing would make sense in DBD, too, so killers and survivors each have a fair shot at success based on skill rather than relying on “feelings-based” changes.
Tunneling and slugging aren’t about making the game “miserable.” They’re responses to how fast survivors can complete objectives, which is often faster than killers can reliably manage without these strategies. If DBD were balanced purely around “fun” feelings without considering practical in-game needs, killers would have to rely on suboptimal tactics and struggle to succeed consistently, leading to more frustration on their end.
Extra necessary objectives would be fine with us but as we've seen how much gens can possibly regress it's would be unwise to implement. Some of these can be flipped to the killer. They might have had that idea with what happens when killers utilize the strategies you say are necessary with multiple perks that make things a pain (side note: what makes survivors truly unhookable? We can only think of temporary). We thought we weren't balancing things based on "an utopian concept of people acting by the approved norms of niceness." So why add a slowdown that can be used regardless if said strategies are used or not (disregarding the fact that people sadly only did pumpkins when effectively forced and currently totems work under this same idea)
Balancing based on strategic effectiveness isn’t the same as balancing around “niceness.” Killers who tunnel or slug often do so to control the game due to the pressure they face, not to be disruptive or “unkind.” Rather than enforcing “niceness,” balancing around alternative objectives allows for fairer strategic choices that can diminish the necessity for killers to use these tactics as frequently.
So we're unsure of what specifically your addressing here so if we missed the point we'll apologize and ask for specific things. When perks change they affect each killer differently yes but we ask why on occasions that's not enough? Since reworking takes more time and effort why not use these as stp gap measures?
Reworking perks frequently introduces new meta cycles and forces players to readjust, which can be disruptive. While perk reworks can be useful, they’re best when supporting a solid foundation rather than compensating for underlying balance issues.
We don't repeat this to be mean, we repeat this cause it seems true to us: your arguments are not doing a good job of what you're trying to do.
We're ignoring this next paragraph cause "impossible to win" is heavily untrue.
As for the math, we've stated to others that clean numbers don't work in DBD because of one important element: the human element. Humans are prone to errors, which adds unknown variables in those clean numbers.
Asking to attend both sides equally? My only argument is that if you end up implementing perks that try to counter complaints, could be useful to ask yourselves why such strategies began.
The math was released by BH, not me, and it´s "shady" at best, people believe that the actual win rate across the board for every killer is 60% which is not correct, each survivor has a 40% survival rate, variables, "human element" (as you mention) so I am a bit lost in what point you are trying to make. I am ASKING for balance, not defending tunneling and slugging, which I dont even do, hell I play Sadako…
When im mediating and saying sure, prevent strategies that are unfun for survivors, just make sure you check why killers rely on such strategies and you just try to shut down the thought completly, well, it comes across as just lazy, biased or annoyed. Idk.
I’m kinda tired of forums. I’m taking a break from you all.
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I tried to tone it down progressively as I took the time to read survivor concerns, yet it doesn’t matter the posture, it’s either black or white.
@justadreampallet said:
people complaining about sides does not make sense when both sides will say their side is the side that should be buffed.
People need to be more open minded (which will be about as easy as convincing a tree to bow) and realize that it is a player issue and not a full game.
Slugging, tunneling, and camping are issues but so is sabo, flashlight/bang, and gen rush squads. All of these can be counteracted by perks but shouldn’t be forced too.
For every toxic match there will be more normal and sometimes friendly matches so some people need to calm down and offer genuine discussions and not revert to “of course you would say that as a ____ main, you are obviously dumb because ____ exists” when 2 problems can exist at the same time.You are right and yeah, I am disappointed in how things turned out during the conversation, May be that my English is not native.
All I am trying to do is make sure BH considers the current state before implementing measures to counter meta strategies that could potentially make the game worst. Maybe hopefully get a few reworks and buffs to some killers.
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Hi, thanks for taking the time to read everything.
My general concern and the solution I’m proposing is not promoting these strategies that affect the survivor experience, I am saying that if we balance the game in order to protect such experience, we have to keep in mind why those became a thing. This game has two well defined sides, killer and survivor, you can’t just call out one side saying they ruin the experience and beg to nerf them to the ground without taking a look at the overall state of the game and, of course, protect the gaming experience of the other side.
If thats the case how many resources were burned in that time? How much quicker will the next chase be because they burnt the resources? Is it a killer that can laugh at hold W, or not? What perks are brought? What gens got done? Theres a metric ton of factors that goes into this.
The majority of killers are going to have a hard time stabilizing a game when you lost 60% of the objectives during the first chase. If you want to regulate how killers should act in order to give you a good experience playing, you have to reward the gameplay you want them to have. By playing the way survivors want killers to play, translates into killers never winning at the current state of the game.The problem with this is that there’s an asymmetry every game. When you have a chill killer but survivors playing to win no matter what you lose. If you have a killer playing to win and survivors chilling the killer will win, but, and this is the big one, if both are playing to win, most likely the survivors will win because of the current plethora of perks that exist, the time it takes to complete objectives and even more so now that they are adding a super powerful perk capable extending survivors time in game significantly.
Here is where the comp conversation came into place for me, because when you have both sides playing to win no matter what, the rules have to favor the killer, otherwise, they would be incapable of winning.
rules as far as we can tell. In one of your previous posts you said they had a rule to allow camping, from that we can infer that some don't and camping is outright banned. Meanwhile "normal" dbd has nothing to truly moderate any self imposed rules save the player's…conscience[?].
In this you reveal that you have never played competitive nor even watched or followed any of the DBD leagues.Here’s how it works: A team assigns a killer and faces the other team survivors, in that first set, the killer is aiming for the best possible result, being, killing every single survivor while having the most possible generators up. All 3 leagues allow face camping hook, survivors cannot free themselves even if they fill the anti camp meter.
99.9% of every game goes as follows: Killer gets into a chase, downs a survivor, looses 2 or 3 gens, camps the hook till at least second stage. Survivors go for rescue, they trade at hook; the killer slugs the rescuer and tunnels out the dead stage survivor.
Then well, it varies but the most common strategy is slugging till he has the chance to down the remaining 3 to get a 4k. Meh no?
Every single game where he cannot tunnel the dead hook survivor, the killer loses the game. (Unless he manages to slug all 4, which is an option reserved for 3 killers in the game, nurse, hillbilly or blight)
After, the other team killer plays to match the hook stages the first killer achieved.
Of course this is not the case of our regular gameplay, yet, it’s something that shows which are the most effective strategies to achieve the best possible result and diagnoses (granted, to a degree) the current state of the game.
Riot games does not balance LoL based on community feelings and “have fun protocols”, they evaluate the power of each champion based on their maximum possible performance.
Here the problem is that many times we end up balancing the game based on players feelings, so when one side plays to a decent capacity, the other side (killer) has a super tough time.
So now we ask the question: What could the devs possibly do? What could they change to make these theories gone? What reward could be worth more than a survivor "out" to the killer?
They could add an additional objective that provides a very heavy buff to either side, granting blood points. They could actually consider what happens when survivors utilize synergies with perks that make them unhookable. They could actually evaluate how long it takes to rush objectives if the players utilize every tool they get to do so. They could analyze the toxic strategies survivors can pull. They could actually take the time to balance killers and rework many of them that are simply weak. They could prevent slugging and tunneling by making the game a bit slower while granting small objectives that provide players blood points (like pumpkins) so players took a more “gentle” approach towards winning, since both sides are being rewarded by extending the game.We have no idea of the relevancy of this paragraph.
This is referring to the stats BH provided and the claims of the survivor community regarding killer strategies. If they patch perk an issue, might n or affect the strongest killers like it WILL affect the rest of the cast that is much weaker. So normally they change the meta with a macro change and then just shove a few seconds to certain killers thinking that’s a real buff, when a lot of times, is not enough. Why? Because getting into reworks, creating new abilities and such, is way harder than cranking some numbers. I am all for improvements, but responsable and well managed ones, not emotionally driven ones.Personally, being a Sadako main, would love some changes to the current meta, she doesn’t really fit haha.
I just want to “plant the seed” of: Sure, prevent slugging, prevent tunneling, but actually test out and give us something that leaves the game balanced.
The new perk, can potentially give a survivor 6 hook stages, allows them to choose who will handle the chases and paired with other perks, DS, OTR etc, would make (if survivors are playing to win in a decent skill level capacity) it imposible for the killer to win. So just test it out.
By the way, AI helped me with this, because every single time the 60-40 stat comes into conversation:
To calculate the killer's real chance of winning, we need to break down the probability of the killer eliminating at least 3 out of the 4 survivors, given that each survivor has a 40% escape chance, independently.
The probability of each survivor being killed is therefore:
P(kill)=1−0.4=0.6P(\text{kill}) = 1 - 0.4 = 0.6P(kill)=1−0.4=0.6
Using binomial probability, we can determine the chance that the killer will defeat exactly 3 or exactly 4 survivors out of 4.
So, the killer's real probability of winning each match is approximately 47.52%.
Despite each survivor having only a 40% chance to escape individually, the combined probabilities show that the killer wins (defeats at least 3 survivors) slightly less than half the time.
If you try to calculate the 4k, its lower even, because of Hatch, opening the door while killer closes hatch variables etc.
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I’m astonished how you people can’t read. My latest long post explains step step my concern, I go for the mediating approach, explaining the issues and I end up with “duh you can’t win without tunneling you must suck”… how you people type drooling all over your keyboards?
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You already have a perk that kinda does what you claim, “Make your choice”. Also I wonder what happens if you run it paired with this new survivor perk. Just extends the exposed?
You have to balance a game to what is possible to achieve, not assumptions of player choices. If used correctly, paired with other survivor perks, becomes a monster of a perk for survivors, to the point where we need to evaluate how to balance it out for killers. -
My last post defines the issue we getting. Hopefully you all understand where I’m coming from.
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Sadako by all standards is a weak m1 killer, ranked in the lowest possible tier of killers and she needs a buff. Comparing her to other killers she gets it rough.
1- Her mechanic and slowdown can be shut down in a second and basically ignored till you reach end game.
2- Her stealth mechanic is useless because her lullaby exists.
3- Turning on heartbeat makes her teleport a joke and even without it she literally crawls out of the tv.
4- She has cero anti loop and chasing abilities.
5- Her perk selection is very limited because if you run what you need to run to make her decent, you have to completely avoid getting any information perk.
6- She has 3 must use add ons, and not having one of them renders her even weaker in all aspects. (And she has the worst iridescent add on the game).
There’s a lot of options to buff her, I made a few suggestions, but one that I found very cool was that as condemn grows, her intermittent invisibility gets stronger. That would be awesome because it would be a chase helper that is unique to her, she would have great mind games because she disappears and appears three seconds later. Instead of just hindering or haste or breaking pallets faster, she would be more like a mind game anti looper. Would LOVE that, would give her a lot of depth.
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I posted this on another discussion but I’m tired to write more so I’ll just use to mention the issue there is.
The statistic is a bit mmm angled. The BH stats also show that survivors escape 40% of the time, we talking about individual players. There´s 4 of those EVERY match. That means that each one of them has a 40% chance. Im no math expert, but that means that, considering that a "win" according to BH and MMR is killing at least 3, it adds up to more than 40%. Yes, killing one starts to lower the chance for the survivors to live, but each having 40 means that the killer win stat is not as simple as you all love to put it.
We also have to consider that survivors can be mashed together in a single stat because they are basically the same, just re skins, where Killers are vastly different from each other, their powers range from worthless to extremely powerful so we cant just ignore those factors.
If you are having a field day winning, good for you, but thats not the experience of most killer mains. Geez dudes, as you love to toss the "simple stuff" factor, AFTER 1 CHASE if the survivors are not goofing around they will have completed 3 out of 5 gens. After 1 hook. That’s considering that all the survivor did was hold W and drop every pallet in sight. Don´t you think the game goes a bit too fast? I think that Haunted by Daylight showed us a possibility, because people were messing around with secondary objectives that rewarded BP and were fun. Games were a bit longer, you had a bit more freedom chosing perks, etc.
COMP is not a different game. It is the game played at the highest possible level. Just like in other games, the maximum capacity of players is used to gauge the state of characters and game design. You can´t just neglect everything saying " well they have more skill". I KNOW that they play for hooks, but thats the second game, on the first one, where the killer is doing ALL he can to win the game, it´s a forced strategy to slug, face camp, tunnel to have a chance. It is.
Now, you can ignore COMP, lets pretend you are completly right and is different to the point of being a "DIFFERENT GAME" (lol sorry). You CAN´T BALANCE A GAME with FACTORS OUTSIDE THE GAME DESIGN CORE. If a good group of players can end a game in 5 minutes against the best killer player in the world, you have to at least take a look at the state of the game. Killers DO NOT dominate. They dont. Thats why there are rules in place to actually make it possible to win against survivors that are playing at their maximun capacity. YOU HAVE TO BALANCE A GAME TO WHAT IS POSSIBLE TO DO. Everyone, eventually, plays to get better. The mayority of people play to WIN, not just clowing around etc. So, eventually, the skill base of players keeps rising and rising, if you neglect how the meta game looks like and just ignore the fact that is possible to utterly destroy a killer in 5 minutes, you are condeming your game in the long run. The game is succesful because of the thrill factor of surviving, facing the odds, right now is more like, unless survivors play EXTREMELY ALTRUISTIC, MAKE A BUNCH OF MISTAKES OR SIMPLY PLAY TO ANNOY instead of winning, the killer will lose.
There are lot of strategies survivors can use to counter every killer and most of them just involve rushing gens. Thats something to consider, also that holding a mouse button and sometimes pressing the space bar is by no means a hard skill to learn. If the game rewarded good chases, looping and strat from survivor side, we need to find ways to slow it down and give some type of objective to survivors so they can pursue other strategies instead of just, RUSH GENS, PRESSURE, END THIS.
Why do you think that slugging and tunneling exist? Do you think BH decided that’s how it should be played? NO.
Do you think that killer mains are just mean and want to annoy you? NO.
Players came up with this meta strategies after thousands and thousands of hours playing the game, finding what works and how to win. Game balance is exactly the same, you have to attend player complaints sure, but at the same time, consider every factor of why such strategies exist in the first place.
The problem is that balancing killers is harder than balancing survivors, because each one of them has different abilities and different power levels. Can’t just judge all of them, mix them in a bowl and claim that playing killer is easy, because it’s not, every killer main feels the change. If I play a brand new killer, right now, one that I have never played before, I will get a field day, but after certain amounts of games, every single one becomes a nightmare.
Finally, bringing streamers win rates into the conversation while neglecting competitive is just as incoherent.You cannot balance a game and program it accordingly an utopian concept of people acting by the approved norms of niceness.
You have to balance the game to what is POSSIBLE. In that case, the game is survivor side, period. If those players that play survivor want to avoid the current meta game, there has to be at least a conversation in which we consider why is it that killers are being forced to run perks that slow down the game and slug and tunnel etc.
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So, even more possibilities to rush to the objective and finish the game in 5 minutes as survivor?
What need is different objectives so people actually enjoy doing something in game that maybe in the long run helps them survive but avoids everyone to get on gens immediately and end the game in 5 minutes.
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I dont mean like a permanent thing, just flickers the more condemn survivors have, up to idk, 3 seconds or something. The reality is that ANYTHING to make her a bit stronger works, I am not married to any idea, just tossing everything I can come up with.
A very simple buff would be the aura reveal basekit, tied with condem or tape or something, because in her actual state it´s very very much needed to run perks that give no information whatsoever.
Lethal pursuer is great on her, but just by itself, withouit having something to give it more value is awful.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837721#Comment_3837721
If you press the quote button under the comments others will get a notification.
16: 1.5s of invisibility is already quite useful and strong and 3s or more would be unfair. The problem is the invisibility is bugged and only last around 0.7-0.8s, which is nothing. It is supposed to be 1.2s, which is okey and with an addon you can make it 1.5s (if it wasn’t bugged).
Thanks for the input yet I don’t think that’s very helpful. “It’s fine but it’s bugged”. I think that the most common complain on Sadako is that she is just an m1 killer with cero chasing and anti loop capabilities. I think we are up to something here. That intermittent invisibility would make her unique. It would work as a chase tool but in a very unique way. Those mind games sound like super fun. Imagine being chased but suddenly she disappearing and appearing on the other side of the pallet etc, I’m not saying maker her a spirit or a bat Dracula, just pair it with tape or condemn and it would be so much fun.
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When someone tries to bring the killer experience up for conversation, a bunch of survivor mains, claiming to play killer at the highest level, winning every game, come to demerit the opinion.
Emotional, newbies or gentle tactics cannot be used to balance a game. Variables where the player is not trying to win, cannot be used to nerf or buff a class. That’s how it is. You cannot make the game gentler for the survivors because of factors that are not in the game developer hands. If sometimes you get bad teammates that doesn’t mean that killer is op.
When you get a decent team of survivors, it’s not easy to win. Gens are flying these days. Going for community expectations of how killers should play would net cero victories for killers if he is facing survivors that are playing to win. Period.
I know competitive is not the experience we get in solo Q, but, when every single game, (the first one, because after they play for hook stages) REQUIRES the killer to tunnel and face camp a hook, that should tell you something about the state of the game.
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Thanks for the comments.
I do believe that a full condemned survivor should suffer some kind of debuff. It’s balanced because it means that survivor ignored the mechanic and progressed objectives the whole time.
I kinda like the 16, just trying to polish the idea, if her intermittent invisibility grows in power, she could have better chasing power, would make her unique in the sense that she could mind game survivors during loops and such. Would also be damn scary. It would bring a new way to anti loop, instead of dashing or vaulting or whatever, she could just mind game more efficiently. I’m all for that.
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Added on top.
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I made a post with some ideas to buff her, would be great hearing people take on these.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/432250/the-onryo-buff-compendium#latest
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Added on top.
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Easy kill? Ok so, you have 2 survivors remaining, let’s say 1 gen left and is kinda a 3 gen set up. Both guys on dead hook. I find one and I slug him to find the other one and secure a 4K. That survivor I’m looking has options you know?
If I’m camping the slugged one, the other one can finish gen and pressure me into leaving the guy on the ground, he could hide and maybe could get him up. (Maybe the downed survivor has unbreakable?)
I can risk hooking and basically secure a 3k but risk loosing a 4K, since he has time to look for hatch while I am hooking. He gets to hatch and waits there till I go look for it, he mocks me, escapes and insults me and mocks me during after match chat.
He could hide and bleed out his buddy so he secures hatch. Same thing, so he can make fun of me at hatch and then in chat.
He can hide and wait for the guy to be hooked or die, he has key so he positions himself to open hatch after I close it.
I get to hatch, I camp it so he has to ask for it. He hates me so he finishes last gen and aims to stealth to one of the two doors.I get to hatch, I camp it and he hides till I’m tired of waiting, he is not repairing gen so he waits till I close it and has a 50% chance of escaping through the door. (I get this 90% of the time, I had people waiting 30 mins without progressing gens so I am forced to close the hatch or wait the full hour) Then he insults me and makes a post saying every killer is toxic.
You give up.You try to rescue your slugged friend.
I play nice. I leave the area, they reset, I get them again and he proceeds to insult me and make a post in forums saying that they should nerf killers. Also says I am terrible and that I am a disgrace.
Idk what’s the protocol?
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“I was slugged when I already lost the game, the killer aspired for the best result so I’m offended that he didn’t gamble giving me hatch.”
Everyone here. Yawn.
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@Royval said:
Trying to nerf a perk that has no value unless you’re being annoying is funny
Such a perfect response.
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How many times do I have to write that I don’t want nerfs or buffs? I want them to leave it alone. But! If they actually did something like to completely remove the possibility of slugging or tunneling or camping (Which is the most constant complain on forums everyday) I think they should also question why we got to this point and act accordingly.
I play survivor about 50% and killer 50% I play both roles and there are issues with the current game and gen speed. Really dude, no one plays killer? Most killers every game need corrupt intervention so they don’t lose the game in the first 2 mins. One chase and you lost 2 or 3 gens? One chase. You never had a group of 3 guys with repair boxes , kindred, built to last etc? You chase one and in the meantime you lost 3 gens by the time you get one hook. It’s not a skill issue, it’s not that I am taking forever to down one, it’s because with toolboxes and add ons and such, gens fly.
The problem with this is that if you are playing killer to WIN, which I think most of us aspire to, either being survivor or killer, we end up in a tough spot and also hurts the gameplay and perk choices we have. We need to find ways to slow down the game.The game felt better during Halloween event because people had extra objectives, it was fun, it was rewarded with blood points and you actually had different objectives as survivor. The game slowed down a bit.
I am not contradicting your logic that the game becomes easier exponentially as you kill survivors, but also, the 40% escape rate is a fallacy because it’s not considering that there are 4 people with such odds facing a single killer. Sure their chances drop after each kill, (Yet the high chance of escaping through hatch is always present) but also the survive rate and overall win percentage of survivors is higher than what it seems to be. Also the killer percentage is mixed between every killer, not all killers have the same play rate, not all killers have the same chance to win.
I wish the game could be a bit slower and give us extra objectives to mess around.
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Win by behavior definition is 3 kills at least. That will rise your MMR, 2 keeps it as it is and 1 or none is a lost game. That’s not a community definition, it’s how the game and developers handle your MMR.
Also you completely disregarded a big point, that is that the stats are not considering the diverse powers and playstyle of each killer. Facing a Trapper is not the same as facing a Nurse, yet the stats are mixed together.I have tried to come to a middle ground where all I am asking is that if a lot of people regard slugging and camping and tunneling as toxic, we should also be able to question why those strategies exist in the first place and by consequence, attend both sides equally. If they disappear completely, a few changes would have to be implemented so killers stay roughly with the same power they have today.
The worrying part is that balance ain’t happening fairly, the developers consider a buff chopping a second from an ability, where there are killers that requiere a deeper look to actually leave the bottom tier.
But well, I am done with this topic, I think there’s a few good points made but what I learned is that there’s no middle ground, is either you all win and completely intend to disregard absolutely everything I say or you won’t feel good. Kinda like survivors do. Peace.
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I ain’t no math expert, but, the simplest way of looking at it is that each survivor has a 40% chance of escaping, there’s four of those. Killer to win the match needs to surpass the odds of a 40% escaping survivor, 3 times.
Just saying that the 60/40 is not the end of all things. There’s a bunch of factors you have to consider:
1 - Each individual survivor has a 40% chance of escaping, which means that to achieve a “win” the killer has to beat those 40% odds three times.2- Killers are vastly different in strength, survivors can be considered equal because there’s no real difference. So top meta Killers could be carrying weaker killers, which in return could be having horrible games.
Saying that survivors should have a 50% chance of escaping would make the already hard role of playing killer, way harder, because it’s not a 1vs1, it’s a 1vs4 and basically you need 3 to win. -
It’s been my impression, that as someone replied, most player base seem to play survivor and don’t have experience as killers.
In countless occasions I been clear in not making this debate killers vs survivors. I am not trying to nerf survivors nor I’m trying to buff killers, I’m saying that if the company decides to attend slugging, camping and tunneling, they also have to address the current state of things.
Strategies emerge after countless of tries, practice and effort, currently, with the perks, objectives needed to escape and skill level of players, killers have to sometimes utilize these tactics to win, specially against good groups.
Like I previously said, no one that mains killer sits at home and decides that he is going to destroy the survivor experience by utilizing tactics that the community defines as toxic. You get what you can and you adapt during game.
If I get into my first chase and after the first hit two gens pop, I need to do something to try to win. If by the time I get a hook they need only 2 gens I might need to slug one or at least keep an eye on hook to at least trade. Im not promoting slugging or camping or tunneling, hell, as you can see by my avatar, I main Sadako, one of the weaker killers that’s has the redeeming factor of not needing to get into chases all the time nor camp on hook.
I mentioned competitive as an example to at least inspire a little bit of empathy towards the other side of things, you might feel bad if you get tunneled or slugged but, that coin has another side, which is another person that is also trying to enjoy his gameplay and aim to win.
I think that there are ways to solve these issues, but I rather leave the game as it is, because “buffs” consist in crunching numbers instead of visiting actual issues with the current state of perks, gens and killers.Just look what they did with this update.
Btw the argument of stats that favor Killers 60/40 has a lot of variables and facts you need to consider.
Every survivor in trial has a 40% chance of escaping. The killer, to win the game, needs to beat those 40% odds, three times (to actually manage a 3k).
Also survivors can be crunched together because they are basically re skins. Killers are not created equal, there are clear strong and weak killers yet the stats puts them in the same bowl.
So basically there’s a chance that for example, Dracula win rate is carrying Trapper, so on. -
Those tactics are 99.9% of every competitive game, maybe that’s why it has never been that successful in a viewer / audience way.
I am saying that just asking for nerfs to such tactics, without visiting the core design of the game, would destroy the killer experience, because there’s plenty of possibilities to win as it is for survivors. Killers are not created equal and you can’t expect everyone to always have the best possible experience while playing, if you die fast people will cry about it, if they wrecked the killer, they will say to fix the MMR or that it was boring as hell etc.
I am saying that if we are suggesting eliminating current meta tactics for killers, we have to talk about creating a healthy balance and visit killers powers and current state of hooks, generators etc.
I don’t think there’s a single killer main that sits at home trying to destroy the experience of survivors, they are forced to follow what’s proven to work in current state of the game.
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I mention comp because it would be the standard on how to play the game to win. Therefore giving an insight on what is needed to do so considering the current state of the game.
Forget about comp, imagine a regular match with good decent players. After the first chase, 2 or 3 of the objectives the killer needs to protect are gone, it doesn’t matter what he does. Again we are assuming survivors that are not messing around or clowning, they spawn and go into a gen, which is in most cases what happens. The player that went into chase is capable of dropping pallets, he is not a god of looping, just a normal player that is running windows of opportunity (most used perk in the game).
Currently, for killers to win (unless they have incredibly strong abilities like nurse and the knowledge to actually use those abilities correctly) you depend on survivor choices to aim for the win. If people neglect the person on hook, they will finish the gens sacrificing 1 but winning the match.
There is a reason why slow down perks are needed in most if not all killers and even with those, if you are playing a not so strong killer, you have to sacrifice fun perks or even a variety of perks to have a fighting chance. By design something is off.
And for the 100th time, I don’t want buffs to either side, I want people to understand that the reason these strategies they consider toxic exist, is because of their own choices during games, not because one side is incredibly stronger than the other.
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I don’t think they thought about the implications of adding such a perk. They just listened to survivors complaints and added something that actually neglects the real issue with the current meta.
The real current issue is that a lot of killers are weak compared to the best ones, there are too many perks that help survivors rush gens and the only saving grace for killers is to take advantage of altruism of survivors.
Btw, what happens if you running “Make your choice?”
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The amount of perks, items and possibilities survivors have to rush gens force such strategies, the game has issues regarding balancing killers, making objectives harder and rewarding a different approach from killers.
If survivors played with 0 altruism, they would win wayyyyyyy more and such strategies would be long gone, because by the time you end up tunneling or camping 1, the other 3 would be sitting at 1 gen remaining with a spread gen load out, making it impossible to win for the killer. Altruism is very fun and part of the gameplay as survivor, it comes with a risk and that’s fine, just as slugging, camping or tunneling comes at a risk for the killer.
Imagine if they actually removed tunneling and slugging and camping hooks. How you balance that? Considering the way they “buff” killers, proven by the latest patch notes that make absolutely nothing to solve the issues of the current meta.
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Should every game be a clown fest then? Of course I play to win, I actually hardly slug but I do tunnel sometimes, I need it to TRY to win versus certain comps (maybe because my main is a weak killer by most standards).
Killer is stressful because you have to react, plan ahead and focus, and most “good” survivors are toxic, that doesn’t mean I am bad at the game or I am using non community approved strategies to win. I want to win, winning is fun, loosing is not that fun. My position is way more neutral than all this hate towards comp and killers. I just don’t think we need more nerfs to killers and less a macro adjustment to avoid such strategies, because in the end, let’s assume they forbid or prevent slugging or tunneling (which they kinda did recently with the new perk). What then? Someone would come up with a strategy to win as killer, it would be labeled as toxic and then we start again.
If today, magically they removed the possibility to slug and tunnel, 95% of every killer would be incapable of securing a win consistently unless the survivors wanted to give him the win.
What most survivors like is having the killer as a puppy chasing them and making sure they will escape every single game. God forbid someone brings over the killer side of things and everyone goes United hands for the poor survivors. What about my experience and my playtime? Is the killer duty to amuse you or win?
Ain’t easy balancing the game, specially having so many killers now and having such a variety of strength tiers in them, a good meta nurse or billy with good knowledge is going to be a way harder match than facing a trapper or Freddy or Onryo or Pig or all the “weaker” killers. My posture is, enjoy the game as it is because we are walking on very thin ice regarding killers, a lot of them end up feeling pointless for people because they know they are mastering a killer that is weak by design.
I had hope they would actually do something interesting with all these changes to old killers, they missed the mark by a landslide. Mayers changes and Ghostface ones are laughable and Demo change was basically implemented because of an strategy someone came up with to yes… win.
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I really dont see why my post has becomed a battle against comp, or killers or trying to protect survivors. I am advocating for leaving the game as it is without implementing more nerfs.
It really makes no sense the arguments you are all giving, mainly because you claim is a matter of MMR and that the game is balanced and not survivor biased because of how some people chose to play. If anyone with higher skill claims or proves something and you all assume he is always wrong and that shouldnt apply to the "real" game, how come EVERY SINGLE TIER LIST OF KILLERS ranks nurse, blight and hillbilly top spot. Have you faced a normal nurse? They are terrible. Same could be said of a bad billy or blight, yet those lists are based on a good skill and performance from above avarage players, how come when it comes to the macro game, that goes out of the window and you all just try to demerit every argument I give. Good survivors are the top tier, not killers. I want survivors nerfed? NO. I want killers BUFFED? NO (At least on a macro level, a few of them could use some buffs, namely Freddy, Onryo, Trapper etc).
I am not fighting against anyone, I am not the one that makes dozens of posts every single day crying about slugging or camping or tunneling, I am trying to make people understand that those are needed strategies. Dont you think there are toxic survivor strategies? Mainly is a fault at design but have you ever faced an unhookable group of survivors, with map offering camping a gen at a top floor? Making hooks invisible, boil over, no mitter etc? If you dont slug they would win 100%. What we doing about those? Should we nerf those perks because it feels bad for the killer? No. It is fine.
I think what we all should be asking for is update for certain killers that are outdated and weak. Asking for real updates to killer powers instead of moving a few numbers (Cough Ghostface), more fun elements to survivor gameplay, new posibilities or maps, good new content, not just judging every single killer as the same and claiming they HAVE to stop the slugging and tunneling. If those were to dissapear, they would have to actually invest a lot of time balancing killers to have better chances of winning.
Btw stats say that with good perks, survivors have a high 35%-40% chance of surviving, in order to tie a game, you have to beat those odds twice. If you aspire to win as killer three times. Can’t really base everything on killers win 60% survivors 40%.
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The nerfs are in place so it´s basically an uphill battle against you all I guess. Its borderline comical saying that competitive is not important, those players are basically proving of what each player is capable off, providing with real insight on why certain aspects are unbalanced and pretty much pointing you in the right direction. (Maybe thats why the leagues are run by players?)
When you have the best Killer players in the planet HAVING to use such strategies to win, that might tell you something about the state of the game. (Which imo, is fine as it is). That should bring up that "Empathy" and understand that the tools to win as survivors are in place and not just feel entiltled to demmand butchering 50% of the game.
I am trying to stop the posture of thinking the game should give even more tools to survivors to win because they feel bad for a lost game.
I am not FEEDING the idea that slugging or tunneling, I am not advocating that that is the way it SHOULD be played, I am saying it is PART of the game and it is needed sometimes, and just because it feels bad being tunneled or being on the ground, that doesnt mean we should nerf every strategy killers come up with to try to win.
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Of those you mentioned, only Alien is considered decent tier. Onryo is a joke and needs buffs. Giving killers secondary objectives because there´s a fault in the design to escape is not a solution. Without slugging 4ks are a coin toss. Without tunneling, the game is incredibly hard to win. AGAIN I DO NOT ADVOCATE FOR BUFFING KILLERS. I am trying to provide an insight on why sometimes these kind of strategies are needed. Everyday there is a post, "Slug is bad, tunneling is bad". I think you all forget I also play as survivor and I have also experienced such games, yet I dont think the solution is just assume that every killer is busted and we need to nerf them to the ground.
NOT EVERY SINGLE GAME IS A SLUG FEST. Just as not every game is a nightmare versus a pro killer.
Somebody mentioned competitve where killers tend to win more and thats not the case, the most common result is a draw, and in all 3 leagues of competitive DBD, slugging and camping hook is not only allowed, is needed to win as killer. In those games, where survivors are trying to win, they had to implement a rule where camping is allowed, otherwise the killer would never win.
I think that creating a mechanic where a downed survivor has a 4% chance to stand up or bleed out would make it faster if you allready lost the game WHILE also keeping your BP and avoiding people to just DC before the match ends.
I just dont want more nerfs. I think that most killers mains would agree that a lot of times facing a group of good survivors is not even fun, is just stressful.
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I didn’t say is impossible to lose as survivor, I’m saying if it’s a group of 4 survivors playing to win, they have a very very good chance of winning, more so than the killer.
I am not saying: Make the game easier for killers, that’s the perception of people wanting to challenge my post decide, which isn’t.I am trying to avoid bringing more and more nerfs because people keep complaining that killers kill them. They brought now a “trade hook state” with a survivor on hook. They nerfed many killers which none of them is actually considered S tier by any means in this last patch, and everyday there’s many posts complaining that sluggin is bad and we should feel ashamed of slugging a survivor in order to get a 4K.
The “data” we have is that killers win 60% of the time, that’s enough for most to suggest we need to bring more nerfs to killers, when in reality is just that when 4 people of different skill are matched together (which is the majority of matches played) they only win 40% of the time.
The sentiment im trying to bring here, is that the game feels ok as it is, and adding more and more ways for people not to feel bad for not escaping is detrimental to the essence of the game.
One of the solutions I suggested (cause people claim that is not fun waiting on the ground to bleed out if you get slugged towards the end of the match) was that there could be an option to risk getting up at a 4% chance or bleeding out, that would give you a chance to opt out while keeping your BP without DCing.
But saying that they should totally make it impossible to “tunnel” or slug survivors is detrimental to the game. -
The best killer in the world, let’s say Zaka for example, on equal ground has to:
Chase 1 survivor for 2 minutes or so to get a hook, in the meantime he lost 2 gens and about to lose a third one. He has to camp the hook till at least second stage, survivors move to rescue, he slugs one if he is lucky and he has to go into chase again, he finally kills one, and by that time there’s 1 (very rarely 2 gens up) and you are talking about the best killer player in the world. Mind you, with the advantage of not allowing a survivor to unhook himself. He then has to slug till he gets a chance to win or lose the match. That’s 90% of every competitive game.
That sounds like a core design fault killer biased? -
I love the idea of making condemns gradually affecting survivors.
Maybe something like condemn:
At 3 stacks makes the affected survivor hindered, blind or scream revealing their aura.
At 6 stacks broken maybe? Maybe make sadako lullaby silent or making her faster against you.
At full stacks I don’t see why not the survivor gets at least hurt 1 health state when first getting the final stack of condemn. -
I feel like I’m not making myself clear here and the point is being deterred from the point I wanted to make.
I mentioned competitive because it’s the evidence that every survivor team has the tools (perks, skills and add ons) to make the killer life a nightmare. That’s how it is.
The main problem with online games (and their best attribute) is that they are in fact social games and you depend on a group not only yourself to perform.
Considering how it goes, when you play survivor you get a higher chance of having people who are just messing around, perhaps just doing a challenge or just trying to be funny and such. When you queue as killer, you are alone and you depend only in yourself to aim for the win.
There’s not an innate biased unbalance towards making killers win, in essence, the ones that have it easier to win are survivors IF they aim for that. Everyone has the choice to play the way they want but that does not mean that they should nerf killers because you need to win because you keep having bad luck on teammates or you are not making yourself better or even aiming to win a match. We all like to win and really sometimes I do get annoyed by over friendly killers who don’t do anything. Sure, I’ll appreciate a display of mercy here and then and some degree of silliness but it seems that you all want that to be the norm and when you don’t get it, boom, you become toxic and want to nerf every possibility the killer has.
Maybe you all don’t play killer or haven’t faced a group of good survivors. It’s tough, you need to be on your A game to have a chance. Slugging is valid if you aiming to win, with some perks is actually the only chance you get, (cough unhookable survivors), tunneling sometimes is needed. It is and I been that survivor that gets deleted during the first 5 mins of the match and I can understand why I was a chance for the killer to win.
High MMR and high rating is inclined to survivors. That’s what the game at its core it’s programmed to be, yet, thanks to certain aspects, matchmaking and general posture of players during a match, killers tend to do slightly better considering the WHOLE ocean of players. But that doesn’t mean they need to keep nerfing every strategy for killers, it is already super frustrating at times aiming for that 4K.
Play to win and you will win most matches. As simple as that. If you are lucky and you get 1,2 or 3 people who want the same, you will win the match. There’s no way to win versus a team that is doing objectives every second and aiming to win. There isn’t really, so, altering more and more and making killers weaker and weaker will only make it worst.
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You are not supposed to win every game. That’s the reality of things. I didn’t imply unbreakable is bad or anything, I mentioned it cause it’s a counter measure to a lot of the complaints. I am not making things up, there’s 3 decent competitive DBD leagues and in all of them, camping is not only allowed and enforced, is needed to have a chance.
If you aspire to win, you have to put in the work and I’m sorry if you lose but it means your team was not focused on winning or you had a good killer which ultimately, makes it fun.
Answering your MMR question, on my main killer I get basically full 100P survivors and it’s incredibly hard, stressful and thrilling, winning games, yet I wouldn’t have it any other way, cause in the end of the match even if I won or I lost, we all had fun and the thrill that has made this game so successful.
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In that case, If I’m camping the hatch, you could do the last gen no? The thing is everyone complains of the killer aims to perform the best he possibly can. Everyone is expecting a “not complete defeat” idk.
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Hello! sadako main too. I do empathize with some of your comments, yet I do not find her as weak as people suggest she is. I’m pretty sure I am almost at max MMR with her because every match is hard and I get a bunch of p100 survivors that loop like gods and bring over everything to destroy me. I do believe she needs some love and I made a post with a few suggestions, I’ll post them here so I can get some feedback.
1- One of the main issues with Sadako is the perks she needs to run to perform against a good team. The thing is, you kinda have to forget about any aura reading perks or location perks so you can have enough slowdown or chase potential to actually have a fighting chance. My first suggestion would be: Make survivors carrying a tape scream and reveal their aura for 3 seconds every 15 seconds or so.
2- Make survivors hindered by 2-4-6% depending the amount of condemnation they have.3- At full stacks of condemn, injure the survivor, then he needs to deliver the tape, heal or risk being downed. It would grant condemn a bit more of risk.
4- For every 3-6-7 stacks of condemn, a pallet is locked. Like 1 pallet for 3, 2 pallets for 6 and 3 pallets for full condemn.
5- Survivors carrying a tape that are healed, share a condemn stack, or basically, if a bunch of survivors are grouped for 10-15 or whatever, and they have any amount of condemn, they spread a stack.
Idk, I am just thinking, I am not suggesting implementing all of these.
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I suggested on a another post that the survivor could have the option to risk getting up at a 4% chance (like unhooking) or bleeding out.
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All these complains are to satisfy the ego of survivors to make sure they can escape even if they lost the game. If you don’t slug the third survivor, 90% of the time the other one gets to the hatch before you.
Outcome 1, you can risk hooking, and you end up getting to the hatch before the survivor, so if you want to 4K you have to camp the hatch. Then the survivor hides for 35 mins so he can tbag you at the door he opened because you closed the hatch.
outcome 2, you don’t slug the third one, you hook him and the final survivor gets to the hatch before you.Outcome 3, he hides and waits for you to close the hatch because he has key.
Outcome 4, you hook, close the hatch and have a 50% chance of finding him on door.
Outcome 5, you slug the third to find the final one and the third has unbreakable or not.The end game is fine as it is and is highly inclined to a survivor surviving.
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If one is slugged and the killer is looking for the last one is because there has to exist the possibility to get 4K, unless you really need to make it always a 3k to satisfy your ego?
If you hook the third 99% of the time you get to the hatch before, simple. If you don’t like being on the ground, basically they should add a mechanic that is 4% success like unhooking to get up or bleed out. That’s bout it. And killer should get credit for the kill if you end up killing yourself with that mechanic.
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It’s completely counter intuitive buffing his speed at EW1 but forcing you to stalk from afar. What’s the point of no terror radius? Idk