Seraphor
Seraphor
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This question is asked all the time, and the answer is always the same.
At lower skill levels, it's heavily killer sided.
At higher skill levels, it's more survivor sided. Unless you play Nurse/Blight.
Somewhere in the middle, is where it's theoretically balanced, but finding that ideal combination of factors in a single game is almost impossible.
This is ultimately due to the asymmetrical nature of the game. Killer is the power role, Survivor is the teamwork role. The skill expression of Survivor presents itself in the form of cooperation, higher skilled survivors are better team players and their skill-curve is steeper as it's multiplied four-fold. (four good survivors are exponentially better than four bad survivors, particularly if the good survivors are using voice comms)
Thus higher skilled survivors beat out killers, whose skill curve is much shallower as they only have themselves to rely on and improve as. A good killer isn't as 'better' than a poor killer is, comparatively to survivors, because their skill curve isn't as pronounced.
This is an immutable truth, and cannot change no matter how much balance is tweaked. Survivors will always dominate the top end and killers will always dominate the bottom end, precisely so there can be balance in the middle. Nurse and Blight exist to give killers a fighting chance at the top, and to an extent, so do camping, tunnelling and stacking gen regression perks.
Balance changes simply shift this whole dynamic one way or the other, but you still have the same two extremes.
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30 seconds
Or, 20 seconds with a 32m radius
20 seconds is pushing it, but the reduced radius would be a fair trade off and make it equally useful on high- and low-mobility killers, though any shorter than 32m would be a significant nerf.
Realistically survivors are only using rushed actions to get away from you (you're not using this as an info perk to find survivors you aren't already aware of) so it doesn't need to be as far as 48m, but at the same time if they're in the process of running away from you, they could be nearly out of your TR, so 32m seems the minimum to me.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3552161#Comment_3552161
Yes. Can we please change the main building in Saloon, to remove all the lockers that are on narrow paths, because SWFs are purposely looping people on these narrow paths, so they can make unavoidable head on plays.
And can we change the main building in Saloon, so that boil over / sabotage SWFs can stop running into the side room on the 2nd floor? Maybe add some hooks in the main building, or give the killer more ways to get from those 2nd floor side rooms to the ground?
A hook on the upstairs mezanine behind the gen would be ideal.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3546676#Comment_3546676
Most players can see it. It is simply a test on some accounts.
Seems to me that most can't see it. It's hidden for me, my friends, and just about every streamer I've seen in the past couple weeks.
If you keep getting dodged, best bet is to dip out yourself and try a new queue seed. Chances are if you're P100 you're also high MMR.
A fresh queue should put you with other high MMR players, who are less likely to dodge a single P100 (if they even see prestige). While backfilling is more likely to match you with low-mid MMR, who are probably more likely to dodge high prestige.
So that very first bunch of dodges is what sentences you to perpetual dodging.
Also worth noting what other factors are in play. Are you a brightly coloured Feng/Nea with a TTV or team name in your username?
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LMAO, I made this exact topic when Nick was released, as I literally saw this movie the night before.
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It's easily countered by survivors keeping track of the totems they cleanse. At which point, it becomes minor slowdown in the form of forcing survivors to cleanse an extra totem each. Or worse, survivors simply refuse to do bones at all and remain oblivious, and just keep their eyes open to watch you coming instead of listening for the heartbeat. That's not exactly OP. It certainly punishes stupid survivors though.
I don't really see how it can possibly be nerfed, fact is you rarely see more than one stack of Pentimento anyway, it may as well exist only for the gen slowdown. Maybe it could warrant being 25% instead of 30%, but that seems like nitpicking.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3550800#Comment_3550800
You can’t win as survivor that way. Lol.
I often run an entire build based around Renewal (We'll Make It, Empathy, Botany Knowledge + 40 charge medkit just for other survivors), and I've escaped multiple times either being the first hooked, not managing to get a full heal before I go down, or just going against a Plague.
While it IS largely down to luck of the draw, it's entirely possible to win as survivor with zero perks, simply because survivor perks are so much less impactful than killer perks. They have to be, there's 16 of them in every game.
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@I_CAME said:
Why do people think they should be able to win consistently with meme builds? I've never understood this way of thinking. If the survivors bring meta perks and play well then they should almost always win against a killer who doesn't bring a strong build. You either play to win or you run a meme build. This is basically how things are in any competitive game. You can't necessarily have both. I'll sometimes run into people playing low tier killers like Pig without any form of slowdown. Then they'll have the nerve to whine in the post game chat about how they didn't get a kill. Like what did you expect when you brought a meme build?
The irony here is that Pig, when played correctly, has the best innate slowdown of any killer, and doesn't need slowdown perks at all.
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There's a small chance you faced a killer with Overwhelming Presence. But it's not exactly a meta perk.
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Gen speeds will always be too fast for the killer and too slow for survivors.
The fact is, as killer, your goal isn't to kill a survivor while the gens get repaired by other survivors. It's to prevent gens being repaired while you kill survivors. If you play gen defence passively, or not at all, then you will have 3 gens pop in 90 seconds or less.
The best form of slowdown will always be direct gen pressure.
This is why info perks, and the gamesense to use them effectively, are so valuable. You can't substitute them for regression perks. Regression perks are crutches to make up for the killer's inability to effectively pressure gens.
(Yes you will likely lose the first 2-3 gens fairly quickly, but if you pressure effectively, the last 2-3 will be a lot harder to finish)
Which is why some of my most effective builds are almost all info perks, or at least 3 info perks plus some minor slowdown, if the killer itself can't apply slowdown.
For example:
All-Seeing Ghostface/Pig; Lethal Pursuer, Nowhere to Hide, BBQ, I'm All Ears. (slowdown is provided by Pig's traps, or substituted by reduced chase time on exposed survivors with Ghostface)
Make-Your-Choice Dredge/Xenomorph; Make Your Choice, Floods of Rage, Lethal Pursuer, BBQ.
Or anti-healing Doctor, where the slowdown is indirect and can be bypassed entirely by refusing to heal; Ultimate Weapon, Sloppy Butcher, Distressing, Nurses Calling.
I almost never use gen slowdown/regression perks, other than sometimes Call Of Brine, which I use as much for the info it provides when someone gets a skill check, informing me to go and pressure that gen.
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To everyone saying it's the killers responsibility to track their objective or that this is only wanted to make it easier to tunnel.... that's completely backwards.
This doesn't benefit tunnellers, who are more than capable of remembering ONE survivor.
But when you're trying NOT to tunnel someone, and there are multiples of the same survivor, or people are going to 2nd stage for whatever reason, it becomes difficult to track that information across FOUR survivors while also maintaining the gamesense needed to score downs and hooks at the same time.
This benefits killers who are avoiding tunneling in the name of good sportsmanship, or for farming. It is literally not 'tracking the objective', it's tracking the delay of the objective.
I realise it's easy to assume all killers are tunneling campers who hit you on the hook and bleed you out for four minutes, but some of us actually try to play fair.
At the very least, I would like some indication that the survivor I've picked up or downed is on death hook. So that if I need to, I can drop them as a slug or let them wiggle free.
This is already possible with an Ebony Mori, but it shouldn't be necessary to run one just for this when you don't intend to actually trigger the mori.
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@CountOfTheFog said:
So if I have this turned on, it is entirely possible that I will end up in back to back matches against the same player playing the killer role?
No more or less likely than without it... but yes entirely possible.
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It's for streamers, so stream snipers can't try to queue into the streamers lobby by timing their ready up, or tell if they're in a streamers lobby by matching the time they ready up.
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@katoptris said:
If you bring offering expect a sweatfest.
I will never understand this mindset. It's just more BP.
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No, I've never noticed any correlation with BP offerings, and I'd rather score the bonus BP myself thanks.
I usually run streamers myself, as killer or survivor, because we all need BP.
Of all the stupid reasons to DC this is really pushing the limits.
Edit: oh I'm not the only one who misinterpreted this as BPS at least!
As for Twitch streamers, it's never the sole reason, and some games against multiple streamers have been reay good. But streamers + gaudy feng/nea cosmetics + flashlights + last minute switches, sure.
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@Shroompy said:
Lightborn is quite possibly the biggest trap perk for killers in the games history
Learning to angle yourself when picking some one up is something you need to learn. Using Lightborn not only prevents you from learning it (since theres no need to), but it also uses up one of your valuable perk slots.
I maybe get flashlight saved once every 10 games I see a flashlight, its really not a hard skill to learn.
I don't have a problem with flashlight saves. I usually anticipate them and chase off the rescuer before picking up.
The vast majority of blinds I receive are at pallets. If I can avoid those it usually ends up with me closing the distance a lot quicker, likely due to them wasting time in their attempt to blind me.
If there's 3+ flashlights it's almost always worth it just to cut those chases short.
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Most survivors refuse to do anything that isn't directly repairing a gen or directly recovering health states. Interacting with the killer in any way is a hassle.
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How do people still not understand latency?
All of these "look at the hitboxes" screenshots are the same thing. It doesn't line up because you're looking at the survivors PoV, not the killers.
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If a gen pops that quickly, it's because all survivors spawned together on that gen. It's not ideal, but it's not unrecoverable.
The first couple of gens will always pop quicker than the last couple gens, this is normal. It's normal to have a couple gens pop before you've scored many if any, hooks. You can still 4K under these circumstances.
After this first gen pops, you will be pressuring survivors, they will not be grouped up, and with any luck you will be interrupting gen progress, so subsequent gens will be much easier to defend, on average.
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@OneAutmLeaf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545367#Comment_3545367
Yeah its a uneeded change to begin with, theres perks that counter camping and tunneling ppl would rather ######### that they got tunneled and not run those perks, this shouldnt need to be basekit, DELIVERANCE AND REASSURANCE EXIST FOR A REASON, if you getting camped alot maybe change you build up instead of all gen perks idk just a thought ppl...
There was a time where Borrowed Time was an essential perk. If you didn't run it, you'd get your team mates killed and flamed in post game for failing to run it. They rightfully made it's effects basekit.
Are you suggesting every survivor has to always run Reassurance and Deliverance if they "don't like being camped"?
These perks don't actually work to prevent or punish camping all that much. Mostly because the correct counter to a facecamper is to slam gens, something you can't do if you have to spend 30-60 seconds approaching the hook, discovering the camper, and attempting to get close enough to apply Reassurance.
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@TerraEsram said:
... Does it means that... They Nerf the Trapper sack add-on unintentionally?
Technically yes, but Trapper Sack will still be better than running all over the map collecting the traps.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545163#Comment_3545163
Despite how much I play this game there are still things I have yet to catch on to, such as what maps are good or bad for different situations be it all killers, certain killers, survivors, etc.
Whenever I use map offerings as Killer I use them based off of aesthetic/where I feel like going for theming purposes. I must have confused so many Survivor teams when as Killer I use the Garden of Joy offering or some other stage offering that doesn’t make sense for the Killer I am using 😂
I used to do this for Hawkins. Might do again for Nostromo.
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The only explanation is they don't understand the purpose of the perk or how it works, and think "increasing the values" will make it more useful.
It needs to apply the reduced Terror Radius outside of chase, that's it, That makes it a viable perk.
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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545119#Comment_3545119
Wild, if that's what they meant, that's not at all how I would have described the concept. Goes to show how vastly different people express ideas using words
The "ring around the rosies" part kinda gives it away.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3545140#Comment_3545140
The unbalanced maps I'd rather see balanced or deleted.
I don't want a variation of Garden of Pain or of whatever Singularity's map is called.
I want variations of Garden of Joy that have weaker loops/main building or a smaller footprint, so that there is a version of the map that doesn't favour survivors more than killers. This way, playing the offering for Garden of Joy won't be a tactical move used by SWF to secure a win, because it could just as easily backfire and spawn the 'killer sided' variation.
Do this to all unbalanced single-map realms and then map offerings are no longer a tool to troll with, they can be used genuinely to go to a realm of choice for the enjoyment of playing on that realm's aesthetic.
I don't want any realms deleted because that's just miserable, anti-fun rhetoric. Go play Golf or something.
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@Steakdabait said:
Why are you complaining about getting more good maps?
As the saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
How do you know the new variations will be good maps? They're going to be new maps, that simply reuse the assets of existing Macmillan maps.
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@drsoontm said:
Macmillan are pretty balanced maps (so far) so it's a good choice for variety.
That's precisely why it's not necessary. It's not like this will make Macmillan maps any more likely to spawn, just that there will be more differences between them each time. If anything, this introduces the possibility of unbalanced variations of these already balanced maps. We won't know until we see them.
It's the currently unbalanced maps that need more variations, so that the variety makes up for any strengths/weaknesses one might have.
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@ratcoffee said:
what do you mean "playing into"
do you mean like "choosing to play against"? we don't have an option of what killer we go against
do you mean "playing in a way that lets the killer take advantage of their strengths"? so, in the case of chase killers, that would be... just not running away from them. yeah somehow i think that's worse
do you mean "playing as"? because chases are fun
I think it's more like, when you see a survivor dancing around a strong loop and refusing to budge from the point precisely opposite you. Do you commit to the loop and spend the 60 seconds it takes to gradually close that gap until the 50/50 at the pallet where you find out if that 60 seconds was a complete waste?
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I thought this.
The original three realms already have five maps each. Which is more than any other realms (besides Badham for some reason).
If any realms need more maps or variations added, it's the later ones. Glendale, Withered Isle, Eyrie, Borgo, Toba Landing, etc.
This is the biggest problem with map offerings, that certain offerings give you a 100% chance of going to a given map, while the MacMillan's Phalanx will now give you a 10% chance of going to a given map.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I don’t fully agree with the OP sentiment. However there is a dissonance problem in that survivors say long chases are the most fun part of the game, but long chases basically mean a loss for the killer.
Winning is always going to be the most fun part of any game.
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@Rovend said:
Maybe because Dbd is supposed to be about a killer chasing survivors trying to kill them while they try to survive. Like, that's literally the purpose of the game.
It's not "Kick gens until the players get so bored that they decide to give up or stall until the game server close down" by Daylight.
It's also not "run around a stack of boxes 50 times, inching closer and closer until you converge under a pallet, drop the pallet, then repeat at the next stack of boxes with a pallet"
There is nothing more boring than a efficient survivor who can keep maximum distance between you and them at all times. Which is why I play stealth killers who can catch survivors off guard and/or in dead zones.
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Singularity.
Unplayable on console, but couldn't know that until olaying it. Everyone raved about it on the PTB.
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It works perfectly fine with We'll Make It, what's your issue?
I run Renewal with We'll Make It and Empathy as my 'healer' build. I score the unhook, rapidly heal the survivor, and fully charge my Renewal in the process. Scoring me 2 heals for the cost of a half heal (8 seconds), which is a 300% increase in healing efficiency.
(Throw in Botany Knowledge and a purple Medkit with 40 charges, and you can get that heal down to 5 seconds)
Renewal requires you to complete 16 charges of healing. We'll Make It doesn't decrease how many charges you complete, only how fast you heal those 16 charges.
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@malloymk said:
I've always said the best way to prevent early Kobe self kills is to have Kobe attempts cost in game blood points. I'd shoot for 8k as the number.
That would persuade some people to stay in the game, but more importantly you would have to stay in the game long enough to accrue blood points in the first place to try to Kobe yourself out of the game.
Sure more people would DC and the bots are still pretty terrible, but bots are still better than someone dying on hook as soon as possible.
Completely ignoring the fact that there are valid uses for kobe attempts, and you shouldn't be penalised for those.
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Mad Grit doesn't make you lunge at all...
You can't lunge while carrying a survivor.
Maybe I could see that spamming attack could decrease your side-to-side wiggle sway a bit. But it certainly won't get you to a hook any quicker outside of a straight line.
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This doesn't even need to be linked to lobby dodging. De-pipping shouldn't be a thing anymore outside of disconnects. Its entirely a personal progression system at this point, just remove de-pipping entirely and make what pips we do get a little harder to obtain, or make each level require an extra couple pips or something.
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I had a game yesterday against Spirit. I was first down, and I waited about 30s but no one tried to come for me. So I took my chances, fully expecting to just 'go next', and I lucked out and managed to unhook myself on the second (last) try.
I ended up escaping with a 3E result.
That's why it's still in the game.
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I had 4 Spirits, a Wesker and one Alien yesterday.
The Alien game was the best one.
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You can 'care' about the outcome without being triggered when it doesn't go your way.
My main goal isn't to kill everyone, it's to score highly and earn more BP. This still means trying to do well, but it also means that I often score higher when I spread hooks and don't try too hard.
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This is because the current hatch is literal a 50% instant win for the survivor/ lose for the the killer. But not only that, even if you win the coin tose odds they now get another chance to escape out the doors.
That's the whole point.
The final survivor has to have a fair shot of escaping that is disconnected to the state of the game until that point, a 'sudden death' mechanic if you will.
Because if they don't, then that means the game is already over at 2 survivors without all gens repaired, because the killer will find and down one of them, and secure that kill. If the final survivor in this scenario doesn't have a chance, then there isn't even any point in trying to be that final survivor, the last two survivors may as well just give up there and then.
If the last 2 survivors give up, then every 2K game becomes and automatic 4K game. Kill rates skyrocket, which leads to massive killer nerfs, to ensure that a 2K (and by extension 4K) has a roughly 50% chance of occurring.
A 3K is still a win for the killer, and a 50/50 shot at turning a 3K into a 4K is more than fair.
For Adepts, if you can 3K once, you can 3K again, and if you can 3K multiple times then it's only a matter of time until you get the 4K.
4K's, and 0K's for that matter, should be extreme scenarios, not the norm.
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What about punishing console players who have a mechanical handicap and not a skill handicap?
PC players can just click on what they want to kill and it dies, see Huntress/Nurse/Trickster/Deathslinger.
Console players have to fight against joystick unsensitivity and will miss the majority of M2's.
PC players aren't going to be affected because they land all their hits anyway, 50% reduction on zero missed hit slowdown is still zero missed hit slowdown.
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Yeah as a console player I guess I'll have to use Xenomorph as a teleporting M1 killer. At least that means Turrets are free slowdown.
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Map offerings are a valid or even important part of game expression, just like being able to choose the killer you play.
But they should never 100% favour one side.
The solution isn't to remove or reverse map offerings, the solution is to ensure every offering has a range of results. This means each Realm needs to include multiple maps or multiple variations of a map, and those variations need to be different enough that some can be 'killer sided' and some can be 'survivor sided'. But they should still in general send you to a given location or theme.
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No? I don't see how TCM could possibly make up for dozens of licensed characters. I love DBD, and I have zero interested in Bubba the game.
"DBD is dying" is a platitude at best, and a self-fulfilling prophecy at worst, as in, if it's dying it's because the players are killing it. The game is largely improving with each update, but the playerbase is getting jaded because it's not improving fast enough for most of them.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542208#Comment_3542208
That's the point, but the mechanic will deem the killer is camping, because everything that is radius based in this game is a big cylinder that goes through everything, not a sphere. So the mechanic will say "oh look, killer nearby, guess they are camping, let me fill the bar" meanwhile the survivor is actually being chased. So now you can have 2 survivors working on gens, while the one on hook just unhooks themselves thanks to the "camping" killer
As always, every time this discussion occurs, depending on the variables used to fill the gauge, it may not fill at all, in time for the survivor to use it, if there's any survivors in the zone along with the killer being in it intermittently.
This scenario doesn't have the killer permanently in the zone, they have to leave it to change level. And with the other survivor slowing down the progress, it might not even get to 100% before the 60s hook state has finished.
If there's a risk of that happening, then survivors still need to go for the save.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3542186#Comment_3542186
Also i'll draw a diagram showing exactly how SWF will abuse this on several maps, and very easily too.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OJPWU96HX61G/image.png
The blue is the big 16 meter "you are camping" cone.
The map is midwich. All a survivor has to do, is run the chase underneath the survivor on the hook and the killer will be deemed "camping" meaning that eventually the person can unhook themselves. You can slow it down, or do w/e you want, the point is, SWF will abuse this, they'll be able to pop back in and out of the radius to make the killer "camp" while communicating the current status of this mechanic.
Coms allow survivors to abuse the hell out of it.
Solo queue won't change, because the killer still facecamps, and leatherface still saws you twice in one sweep right after you unhook yourself, and right back to the hook you go.
Camping itself, is a BAD strategy, you will LOSE the game by just flat out camping. The problem is it is BORING, so the fix here, is to discourage the BORING gameplay. But will survivors have any more fun unhooking themselves, then getting hard tunneled right back onto the hook? I sincerely doubt it.
This doesn't make any sense.
If the killer is chasing a survivor on a different floor, they're not camping... so you can go for the rescue...
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The correct play for failing to defend gens is never to forego defending gens entirely and camp someone out. It's always a cheap tactic before endgame, but as soon as those exit gates are powered, anything goes.
So no, I don't think this is something that should scale with generators repaired. If anything, this will make it more profitable to pressure those final gens instead of camping, because survivors may not go for the save right away if they wait to see if the killer is camping first. So they will stick to the gens, meaning you want to go for the gens where you will find them and interrupt them.
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I'll dodge if others including the killer dodge.
Typically P100 means the killer will dodge, repeatedly, and it's just quicker to load a fresh lobby.
And the killer that doesn't dodge, likely has something up their sleeve to deal with the P100, like tunneling them out.
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I think the speed reduction is unnecessary, killer aura alone is already valuable, just like Wiretap.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3541179#Comment_3541179
I mean, ideally the game should resolve a lot of unsafe Pallets and no Bloodlust. Because this would actually mean that the better player wins.
But claiming that this is the case with Bloodlust involved is just wrong. Because after 15 seconds, the better player loses because the worse player got a Speedboost.
You realise this is a 4v1 right?
The survivor is never supposed to win a 1v1 outright, only delay the inevitable.